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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 00:49:56
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I have an explanation for why Papa god didn't come to eilistraee or Vaerhaun defense. It was planned. Perhaps as a contengency if things went arigh, but I wouldn't be the lleast bit suprised if all this wasn't part of a grander plain, of all right we'll redeme those that we can, and then those that are can get out of the way, and we'll bring the hammer down on the rest. Think about it for ammoment, those that are no look different from those that aren't. There's no confusion on the part of anybody else, maybe this one serves eilistraee or Vaerhaun and maybe they serve Lolth. Maybe, just maybe, we are finally going to see that long awaited Lolth beatdown.
*cue anoncer voice*
Let's git ready to rumble!!!!
Oh, and
There was a scene at the end of AotL that showed Q'uarlynd and Co as the "cleansed" dark elves, with, yes, brown skin and DARK hair, as their ancestors were pre-Descent. In fact, his first experience with the Kirra gem in the first book showed what they ahd been before, vs what they became after the Descent. His and the otehrs High Magic ritual undid that "curse". And YES it WAS a curse, cast upon ALL dark elves by the High Magic-using priests (not just of Corellon, but the ENTIRE Seldarine). This was specifically stated in the series, as well as being touched on in Evermeet.
Regarding the idea of Eilistraee playing the Sava game, chess has been used as a metaphor or representation of strategic maneuvers both military and political for centuries. Sava, being even more complex, with even more types of pieces (not JUST pawns!) would seem to be an even more fitting image. Like it or not, it is simply a way of expressing the plans the two goddesses (and other players later in the game) had for their respective followers- who were, by the nature of being priests, knights, and magic-user, much more than pawns. They were the higher up pieces, the ones with more power. So calling them simple pawns is not only inaccurate, but is also rather demeaning to their roles within the game. Also, Eilistraee never dictated the moves of her pieces, but played intuitively according to the needs of the mortals involved, and with the desire to prevent the loss of those "pieces", unlike Lolth, who simply played each piece according to her own whims, without any concern for the pieces themselves. Chess is an ever-changing game, and one seemingly random move can make or break a player's strategy. Imagine how much more difficult it would be with living souls as the pieces, and on a level of complexity like Sava has! I don't see how that conflicts with eilistraee or Vaerhaun's goals- they were risking their followers' lives every day. This just happened to be a much greater scale, as it was the "endgame" of their long-term plans. Hense the Sava game.
As for Liriel, I don't know why anyone is using her as an example here, as she is not one of the ones who could/would have been "redeemed" or transformed, given that she is a Baenre, who are most DEFINITELY not pure and untainted. Neither, for that matter, was Drizzt. Both were unfortunately among those who were left unchanged. I do, however, find it disctintly inprobable that all the newly converted dark elves would be automatically killed after their transformation. Q'uarlynd and his crew obviously were not, and they did not even appear to suffer any fall-out from it! My best guess is that all those who were changed would either
A: use magic or some other means to disguise what had happened until such time as they could escape, or
B: pass it off as some sort of magical experiment gone awry or some "gift" of Lolth or whatever that made them physically different.
Granted, I'm not saying ALL of them would be able to do this, but the losses would probably be minimal, as any smart drow (meaning most of them) would find ways to hide it or spin it as a fluke or what-have-you until they could get the heck out of Dodge, as it were. Most would likely migrate to Sshamath or elsewhere. (the surface!! Maybe this is the TRUE cause of the "Rise of the Underdark"?)
All speculation, of course, but it's hardly a "change-and-die" situation. Drow are too smart and too sneaky for that....
I agree with this, especially given how crafty both groups of followers would have to be to survive under normal circumstances.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 04:14:29
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About the Sava:
Ahem, I explained in my other post that I simply dislike what representing the battle over the future of a race as a divine games entails. Ok, so you have a person who fights to give a group of people the possibility to break free from oppression and be bale to make their own choices, to create their own path and future through such choices. Then you have the same person playing a chess game over the freedom of said people, where they appear to be heavily influenced by the player's decision (being depicted as mere chess pieces), and not like the movers they should be according to the player's goal. See why I don't like that kind of depiction now? Also, even if it wasn't E or V playing it, the fact itself that the fight over the destiny of a race -which should be exclusive domains of mortals- is represented as fought (or worse, 'played' by gods) is something that I dislike. I hope that this is clear now.
About Liriel, as Kentinal said, she follows or at least pays homages to the Dark Maiden, so she is eligible for the transformation. Just imagine how she would take it. And she is not the only one. As I said, Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites are rebels who fight for the freedom of their people (yes, even Vhaerunites are, to an extent), they are not bothered by being drow and may even be proud of it, like Liriel is. They're not exiles who run from their race. Yet, they were transformed even tho it didn't look like they needed or even wanted it.
About the deaths of the transformed drow, upon reversion the drow lost every innate trait (including darkvision). This alone would hinder them incredibly in the Underdark and cause the death of many of them alone. This would prevent them from not dying while trying to get to the surface or to Sshamanth, so while people leave drow cities to run from the danger there, they find themselves facing Underdark hazards w/o their drow senses.
Also, the 'redeemed' reverted to elves -i.e. killed on sight by drow- so it is impossible for it to be a gift of Lolth or something, since they manifest in different ways, and this implies that one of the trick you proposed wouldn't work. Not to mention that upon seeing her daughter's move, Lolth would surely initiate some kind of 'cleansing of the filth that plagued her drow' as a sort of revenge on her, inciting priestesses and others to look for and kill the redeemed elves. And this opportunity would be immediately seized by drow to get rid of their rivals. Magical disguise could work but 1)not everyone is a wizard (actually a minority is, even among drow) 2)disguise spells don't last forever 3) true seeing (I'm sure that powerful enough drow wizards and priestesses know such spell). Also there are the ones who reversed while being in public, in which case they're pretty much screwed.
quote:
I have an explanation for why Papa god didn't come to eilistraee or Vaerhaun defense. It was planned. Perhaps as a contengency if things went arigh, but I wouldn't be the lleast bit suprised if all this wasn't part of a grander plain, of all right we'll redeme those that we can, and then those that are can get out of the way, and we'll bring the hammer down on the rest. Think about it for ammoment, those that are no look different from those that aren't. There's no confusion on the part of anybody else, maybe this one serves eilistraee or Vaerhaun and maybe they serve Lolth. Maybe, just maybe, we are finally going to see that long awaited Lolth beatdown.
This would make Corellon the #1 worst deity ever. He would sound like 'Yeah, I let my children die so that this can paint huge targets on the head of the 'evulz' drow and I can unjustly smite them even more than I have already done!!' This would be what that stupid angel said: there's no need for E because 'unwilling were cast down'. Just lol, it makes NO sense (how can someone who is not yet born, or that knows nothing but Lolth's web be unwilling to 'redeem'. What about the ones who were on the edge of freedom, who were starting to see how things really are and that were so brutally shut down?): what's next? The holy inquisition descends from the skies and purges the filthy drow with divine fire? (besides, the wording of that phrase could also imply that Corellon was merely using Eilistraee to make her do the job of 'redemption', so when it was done -even tho it was only a tiny fraction of it- she wouldn't be needed anymore and could go away).
Furthermore, I -personally- don't care about Lolth being beaten down. I simply want the sucky situation and the nonsense that the LP events created to be corrected, and the struggle for freedom and the conflict, the depth that E and V bring to the drow back. It is the only reason that makes me interested in the dark elves, because they are mere pawns in Lolth's hand otherewise. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Oct 2012 04:15:32 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 07:21:47
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@Well, everyone, I guess, lol. A lot has been said here since I last checked (which was this morning). Thanks, Alystra Illianniis, for stating what you did about the Descent. That was helpful. I’m going to add to it. The Illythiir were corrupted during the Crown Wars. One could argue they were victims, too (everyone is in a war), but they were a contributing factor, and, according to Demihuman Deities (old school, I know), Lolth had been essentially whispering in their ear, along with some other dark powers. I am looking through GHotR right now, and while many clans of elves are to blame, and the Illythiir were not the only ones who should have been smacked on the head, but throughout the Wars we see them destroying even forests. I will admit that it is saddening that all the dark elves were cast down, I will not deny that, and some felt forsaken by the Seldarine. It is like blaming an entire race because of what a group did. I am not going to refute that, but Lolth was gaining followers among the dark elves before they were drow (they are called traitors for a reason). The same year as the Descent of the Drow, the Seldarine had the elves form the Elven Court to settle differences. I think they were tired of seeing their children fight.
Actually, there is a short story about Liriel that says she has converted to Mystra, but I guess that is beside the point here. And yes, it does specifically say in AotL that the drow became brown-skinned. The interesting thing about this that both the dead drow who went to Arvandor (like Cavatina), became “dark elves”, and ones like Q’arlynd did as well. Perhaps this only applied to the drow who were touched by the High Magic (Q’ar and co)? But then, that wouldn’t really make sense for the dead ones…
I’ll admit I don’t like the idea of E’s death being “part of the plan”, and it begs the question: whose plan? What if it was Eilistraee’s? Was it really Corellon’s plan all along to have his daughter killed? Personally, I do not think so. Granted, as his devotee, I am biased, but I don’t think he is the cold-hearted god people are making him out to be. As shown in Evermeet, he was reluctant to have Eilistraee cast out of Arvandor. It was at her insistence that he allowed it. In the two sourcebooks I’ve read (like you, Laeknir, I mostly read the novels) that give info on Shevarash, his followers are supposed to lay off Eilistraeens and not kill them, but this IS contradicted in LP when it says Corellon condones the killing of Eilistraeens. Or at least, he doesn’t do anything to stop it. But what if this is yet another way of letting the drow (those who follow Eilistraee at least) prove themselves to be redeemable? As far as I know, Eilistraee hasn’t gone to her father and asked him to intervene. Eiilistraee could want to do this on her own. It was HER choice to do what she did. Let’s say an elf kills an Eilistraeen. That Eilistraeen is going to go to E’s realm (which is far better than Lolth’s!), and their soul will be saved. One could argue that this death would be one less “good” drow in the world to help convert, but that drow still fought for her freedom, whether the elf knew it or not. You can roll with this example or not.
I also think the followers of V and E have the potential to work together. This was proven in LP. One could argue that it was only because E and V merged, and while I’m sure some of the Vs resisted and despised it—and some of the Es, to—others joined the Eilistraeens. And in describing Eilistraee’s realm after she became the Masked Lady, male voices were joined with the females’ in song. Eilistraee needs more male followers, anyway. Ideally, I’d like these two deities to be separate, but Vhaeraun isn’t beyond redemption, either. But I just like Vhaeraun, evil though he may be. He believes in equality, but he has a shortage of female followers because Lolthites are more likely to be converted to Eilistraee because they still possess the “matriarchal” mentality, even though they lose the “stupid male” attitude once they become Es. The initial conversion is the hard part.
I’m not asking anyone to agree with me, but instead of bashing Corellon for his choices (to begin with, it was Lolth who pitted herself against the Seldarine), let’s instead look at the cause of his ire. The Crown Wars was bad all around, and the Seldarine are not the type who like to watch their followers fight each other, and the Illythiir (among others, yes), were a big reason for the Crown Wars. Could the gods have intervened sooner? In retrospect, probably. A lot of grief could have been spared, but as said in the Last Mythal trilogy, the Seldarine will involve themselves with their followers, and have in the past, but they also want the People to work to better themselves. The Crown Wars was certainly not for the better, and the Seldarine became so POed they cast the dark elves down, and then formed the Elven Court so the elves could reform their unity. As as for Corellon’s actions towards E and V, try looking at it this way: they made their choices. Think of him as a father letting his children go. He may not have been happy with their decisions (probably particularly Vhaeraun’s), but in the end, he couldn’t force them, for because he’s NOT heartless. E and V chose a rough road, and it’s like “well, your choice. I’ll always love you, but there are going to be consequences based on your actions down the road”. Because they are gods, their actions (both the Seldarine and the drow gods) are echoed by their followers. Does Corellon think Vhaeraun is beyond redemption? Possibly, but then it’s up to Vhaeraun and his followers to redeem themselves.
Just my thoughts.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 15 Oct 2012 07:23:50 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 10:25:49
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About 'bashing' Corellon: I guess the point of it is making Wizbros give a better portrayal of him when they're going to use him and not get rid of the head of the elven pantheon, which would make no sense. The Descent, the indifference of the Seldarine and so on... scream 'we don't give crap about mortals. Not when they happen to be drow, at least', no matter what justification one could try to give. This needs to change somehow IMO, considering that they had a non neglectable role in shaping the current situation of the Dark Elves and that has no excuse, no matter what brought Corellon's ire (and I suppose, looking at who got smited and who didn't, that such reason was the choice of deities of the Illythiri. About why the Miyeritari got cursed, I absolutely have not even the slightest clue about it. Concerning the destroyed elven forest, just look at what sun elves did cough... Dark Disaster... cough. And again, crimes of war are not a reason to curse a whole race instead of simply removing the ones of them who are truly guilty, like it happened with the Vyshaan-Sun Elves). Making their followers side with Eilistraeens (that is assuming that the Dark Maiden and the Masked Lord will be returned in canon) in FR Next and change their stance from 'kill drow on sight' to 'kill drow only if attacked and watch your back' would be a huge improvement.
About the plan: whether it is Corellon's or Eilistraee's, it makes little sense for what it gives away and what it achieves (if there was a plan at all, and E wasn't simply murdered as far as canon goes). E would give her life for her people, but not if doing so meant giving her followers something they didn't need (again they are fine and sometimes even proud to be drow. If anything, the rest of the drow should have been 'redeemed') while denying all the other drow any chance of freedom. Also, rebel and indomitable as she appears to be, she would never drop her quest on purpose, not even if her father was to continue it (which he isn't doing, nor planning to do at all, as far as I can see. He is simply being open to have the 'redeemed' drow as followers -but he supposedly was open to them even before, so I don't see what has actually changed-): it is her and her people's battle, and it's up to them to lead it. So I don't see the 'sacrifice' hypothesis as appropriate, unless it involved Eilistraee's divinity and not life. Then it would become all of sudden reasonable, as the Dark Maiden would be able to continue to fight for the freedom of her people. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Oct 2012 11:35:58 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 15:58:04
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There's a lot about the drow that really needs fixing. Or an overhaul.
I remember quite literally doing an eye-roll when the "Descent" magic was undone. There's just so much about epic elvish magic that requires intimate trust between the casters in coordinated high-elvish castings. It wasn't just that a lot of elves suddenly reverted to brownish skin and were now "cleansed" (not to mention, how could Eilistraee not know that those people would become targets, instantly... this is how she treated her faithful? yeah, some blessing that was...). The main eye-roll for me had to do with the fact that high-elvish magic has always required intimate trust. The drow (dark elves, sorry) can perform these magics again just because they have rings that force cooperation in underlings? Come on. That invalidates the whole special nature of epic, coordinated high elf castings from past lore.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 16:43:06
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| So I think mostly everyone agrees on this one: we want Dark Seldarine like it was pre-Wotsq or pre-LP. This is correct for everyone right? I also don't like Ghaunadaur becoming a general slime deity. I think he had a weird but fitting place in Dark Seldarine. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 00:29:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
About the Sava:
Ahem, I explained in my other post that I simply dislike what representing the battle over the future of a race as a divine games entails. Ok, so you have a person who fights to give a group of people the possibility to break free from oppression and be bale to make their own choices, to create their own path and future through such choices. Then you have the same person playing a chess game over the freedom of said people, where they appear to be heavily influenced by the player's decision (being depicted as mere chess pieces), and not like the movers they should be according to the player's goal. See why I don't like that kind of depiction now? Also, even if it wasn't E or V playing it, the fact itself that the fight over the destiny of a race -which should be exclusive domains of mortals- is represented as fought (or worse, 'played' by gods) is something that I dislike. I hope that this is clear now.
About Liriel, as Kentinal said, she follows or at least pays homages to the Dark Maiden, so she is eligible for the transformation. Just imagine how she would take it. And she is not the only one. As I said, Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites are rebels who fight for the freedom of their people (yes, even Vhaerunites are, to an extent), they are not bothered by being drow and may even be proud of it, like Liriel is. They're not exiles who run from their race. Yet, they were transformed even tho it didn't look like they needed or even wanted it.
About the deaths of the transformed drow, upon reversion the drow lost every innate trait (including darkvision). This alone would hinder them incredibly in the Underdark and cause the death of many of them alone. This would prevent them from not dying while trying to get to the surface or to Sshamanth, so while people leave drow cities to run from the danger there, they find themselves facing Underdark hazards w/o their drow senses.
Also, the 'redeemed' reverted to elves -i.e. killed on sight by drow- so it is impossible for it to be a gift of Lolth or something, since they manifest in different ways, and this implies that one of the trick you proposed wouldn't work. Not to mention that upon seeing her daughter's move, Lolth would surely initiate some kind of 'cleansing of the filth that plagued her drow' as a sort of revenge on her, inciting priestesses and others to look for and kill the redeemed elves. And this opportunity would be immediately seized by drow to get rid of their rivals. Magical disguise could work but 1)not everyone is a wizard (actually a minority is, even among drow) 2)disguise spells don't last forever 3) true seeing (I'm sure that powerful enough drow wizards and priestesses know such spell). Also there are the ones who reversed while being in public, in which case they're pretty much screwed.
Who said it had to be magical disguises? One can do the same thing with simple natural pigments- something the Eilistraeeans are ALREADY familiar with, as her non-drow followers often use such things to color their skin and hair during rituals, festivals and other ceremonies of her faith. This is much harder to detect with magic, because it uses no magic. Basically, it's theatrical make-up and hair-color. One could easily walk around for weeks using this method without ever arousing suspicion due to magical auras and "detcting illusions", and unlike magical disguises, they last until you take it off or it washes or rubs off. Period. Depending on how well it was made, that could take quite a while. So would they require magic to pull it off? Not really. Since they already know about and use these things, I don't see that being a problem.
As for loosing their drow traits, until Liriel (remember her?) carved her rune, most Eilistraeeans on the surface had ALREADY lost those, and were surviving quite well, thank you. Only the ones still living in the Underdark- which is mainly in the Promenade anywway, a place where Lolthites would have a VERY difficult time reaching them much less killing them- would have anything to worry about, and I certainly can see them having some sort of contingencies in place to deal with this problem, should it even become one. Only a small minority of her followers are even based in areas heavily populated by Lolthites in any case. They do most of their conversion work using portals. After all, one of E's portfolio domains is, in fact, the portal domain. See how simple it is? Hmm.... suddenly, I'm seeing a mass exodus of Ched Nasad (the only Lolthite city even mentioned with a possibly permanent presence of Eilistraeeans) via portals, now that the faer'zress effect has been removed. I don'tthink they would all be slaughtered as easily as you claim. Not when they've been preparing for the very ritual that caused the change back in the first place. do you REALLY think she's just leave them to fend for themselves afterward? I don't. That's not in her MO.
Sava- I get that you don't like it, I just don't understand why a simple military metaphor for war is so adverse to you. It's not about controlling the "pawns", it's about out-manuevering your opponent and studying the battlefield to use resources to your best advantage. Now, one might argue that Lolth is far better at this sort of game, so E should have known better. But, I honestly think she was using Lolth's own love of chaos against her, while at the same time demonstrating that she could think just as strategically as Lolth. In the end, that is what chess (or Sava in this case) is all about. It had nothing at all to do with the fight for freedom, which I think is where you've gotten the wrong impression about the game. It was really about their opposing viewpoints, regarding whose way was better. The game was simply their way of proving it. It was a game of strategy and order, with a healthy dose of chance thrown in. What I find interesting about the game was that it delves into the question of just how much influence the gods have on mortal lives. IS there such a thing as free will? Or is that simply an illusion, and mortal actions are preordained and fated? (And since E and Lolth both have some some influence in the domanis of fate or omens/portents, this makes it actually very fitting.) It was a game of FATE, not freedom. Thus, a variant of chess was actually very appropriate. What does that have to do with E's fight for freedom? Very little, actually.
As for Liriel, as of the most recent story (which Corellon'sDevout pointed out) she worshipped Mystra, NOT Eilistraee. Yes, she still respected her, but she was not an actual follower at the time of the LP novels. And given that, being a Baenre would probably have disqualified her from the change, as no other Baneres were transformed. They were from a tainted bloodline, as was Drizzt. Neither actually follows E, so ergo, no change, even though both are "good". Both are still drow. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 06:15:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Who said it had to be magical disguises?
Well, you proposed it.
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One can do the same thing with simple natural pigments- something the Eilistraeeans are ALREADY familiar with, as her non-drow followers often use such things to color their skin and hair during rituals, festivals and other ceremonies of her faith. This is much harder to detect with magic, because it uses no magic. Basically, it's theatrical make-up and hair-color. One could easily walk around for weeks using this method without ever arousing suspicion due to magical auras and "detcting illusions", and unlike magical disguises, they last until you take it off or it washes or rubs off. Period. Depending on how well it was made, that could take quite a while. So would they require magic to pull it off? Not really. Since they already know about and use these things, I don't see that being a problem.
And how is someone who lived in the Underdark for his/her whole life supposed know how to use (or even about the existence of such pigments)? Also, how would they get such pigments in the Underdark?
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As for loosing their drow traits, until Liriel (remember her?) carved her rune, most Eilistraeeans on the surface had ALREADY lost those, and were surviving quite well, thank you. Only the ones still living in the Underdark- which is mainly in the Promenade anywway, a place where Lolthites would have a VERY difficult time reaching them much less killing them- would have anything to worry about, and I certainly can see them having some sort of contingencies in place to deal with this problem, should it even become one. Only a small minority of her followers are even based in areas heavily populated by Lolthites in any case. They do most of their conversion work using portals. After all, one of E's portfolio domains is, in fact, the portal domain. See how simple it is? Hmm.... suddenly, I'm seeing a mass exodus of Ched Nasad (the only Lolthite city even mentioned with a possibly permanent presence of Eilistraeeans) via portals, now that the faer'zress effect has been removed. I don'tthink they would all be slaughtered as easily as you claim. Not when they've been preparing for the very ritual that caused the change back in the first place. do you REALLY think she's just leave them to fend for themselves afterward? I don't. That's not in her MO.
Ok so, I wasn't talking about Eilistraeens (besides surfacers lost their drow magic, but not traits), and they survived because they lived on the surface... I was talking about the random supposed pure miyeritari who all of sudden found themselves turned brown, BLIND in the Underdark, and exposed to the wrath of Lolth or some BS like that. It is said that in hundreds they try to get to the surface, or even out of their cities. Now just think how many would die in the process. And again, why this? It wasn't necessary, I don't recall any Eilistraeen or Vhaerunite complaining about being drow. They may even be proud of being dark elves who found the strength to break Lolth's chains and fight for their people. I really see no reason for the moondancers to be redeemed, the ideal targets of this 'spiritual clensing' would've been lolthite drow (imagine how hilarious it'd be, lol). So, at the end of the day: if this was a sacrifice, it is not in E's character as she would never drop her quest and would never turn her back to so many drow (as you say, it is not her MO and not even her goal, it's one of the problems with those events). If this was a murder, it'd be just silly too. Pick one...
Look, I'm not saying that the books suck: they could be the best books ever written, but what they did to the Realms definitely suck.
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Sava- I get that you don't like it, I just don't understand why a simple military metaphor for war is so adverse to you. It's not about controlling the "pawns", it's about out-manuevering your opponent and studying the battlefield to use resources to your best advantage. Now, one might argue that Lolth is far better at this sort of game, so E should have known better. But, I honestly think she was using Lolth's own love of chaos against her, while at the same time demonstrating that she could think just as strategically as Lolth. In the end, that is what chess (or Sava in this case) is all about. It had nothing at all to do with the fight for freedom, which I think is where you've gotten the wrong impression about the game. It was really about their opposing viewpoints, regarding whose way was better. The game was simply their way of proving it. It was a game of strategy and order, with a healthy dose of chance thrown in. What I find interesting about the game was that it delves into the question of just how much influence the gods have on mortal lives. IS there such a thing as free will? Or is that simply an illusion, and mortal actions are preordained and fated? (And since E and Lolth both have some some influence in the domanis of fate or omens/portents, this makes it actually very fitting.) It was a game of FATE, not freedom. Thus, a variant of chess was actually very appropriate. What does that have to do with E's fight for freedom? Very little, actually.
My problem is that I really don't see either E or V playing a game where actions of mortals are fated, or a game of fate or whatever. Again, one of their goal is to make drow live and fight for their own choices, to forge their own future. Playing a game over their fate is just not exactly the best metaphor. And then you see both of them sitting with Lolth, playing a game with her rules...
But again, this is simply something that i dislike.
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As for Liriel, as of the most recent story (which Corellon'sDevout pointed out) she worshipped Mystra, NOT Eilistraee. Yes, she still respected her, but she was not an actual follower at the time of the LP novels. And given that, being a Baenre would probably have disqualified her from the change, as no other Baneres were transformed. They were from a tainted bloodline, as was Drizzt. Neither actually follows E, so ergo, no change, even though both are "good". Both are still drow.
Well, this makes little sense. So E didn't bless Liriel because she didn't 'officially' worship her, even tho she still respected her and understood and embraced her ways? Sounds off, a lot off. And as I said, I don't think she's the only one happy with being what she is. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 17 Oct 2012 06:49:52 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 06:29:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
About the Sava:
Ahem, I explained in my other post that I simply dislike what representing the battle over the future of a race as a divine games entails. Ok, so you have a person who fights to give a group of people the possibility to break free from oppression and be bale to make their own choices, to create their own path and future through such choices. Then you have the same person playing a chess game over the freedom of said people, where they appear to be heavily influenced by the player's decision (being depicted as mere chess pieces), and not like the movers they should be according to the player's goal. See why I don't like that kind of depiction now? Also, even if it wasn't E or V playing it, the fact itself that the fight over the destiny of a race -which should be exclusive domains of mortals- is represented as fought (or worse, 'played' by gods) is something that I dislike. I hope that this is clear now.
About Liriel, as Kentinal said, she follows or at least pays homages to the Dark Maiden, so she is eligible for the transformation. Just imagine how she would take it. And she is not the only one. As I said, Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites are rebels who fight for the freedom of their people (yes, even Vhaerunites are, to an extent), they are not bothered by being drow and may even be proud of it, like Liriel is. They're not exiles who run from their race. Yet, they were transformed even tho it didn't look like they needed or even wanted it.
About the deaths of the transformed drow, upon reversion the drow lost every innate trait (including darkvision). This alone would hinder them incredibly in the Underdark and cause the death of many of them alone. This would prevent them from not dying while trying to get to the surface or to Sshamanth, so while people leave drow cities to run from the danger there, they find themselves facing Underdark hazards w/o their drow senses.
Also, the 'redeemed' reverted to elves -i.e. killed on sight by drow- so it is impossible for it to be a gift of Lolth or something, since they manifest in different ways, and this implies that one of the trick you proposed wouldn't work. Not to mention that upon seeing her daughter's move, Lolth would surely initiate some kind of 'cleansing of the filth that plagued her drow' as a sort of revenge on her, inciting priestesses and others to look for and kill the redeemed elves. And this opportunity would be immediately seized by drow to get rid of their rivals. Magical disguise could work but 1)not everyone is a wizard (actually a minority is, even among drow) 2)disguise spells don't last forever 3) true seeing (I'm sure that powerful enough drow wizards and priestesses know such spell). Also there are the ones who reversed while being in public, in which case they're pretty much screwed.
Who said it had to be magical disguises? One can do the same thing with simple natural pigments- something the Eilistraeeans are ALREADY familiar with, as her non-drow followers often use such things to color their skin and hair during rituals, festivals and other ceremonies of her faith. This is much harder to detect with magic, because it uses no magic. Basically, it's theatrical make-up and hair-color. One could easily walk around for weeks using this method without ever arousing suspicion due to magical auras and "detcting illusions", and unlike magical disguises, they last until you take it off or it washes or rubs off. Period. Depending on how well it was made, that could take quite a while. So would they require magic to pull it off? Not really. Since they already know about and use these things, I don't see that being a problem.
As for loosing their drow traits, until Liriel (remember her?) carved her rune, most Eilistraeeans on the surface had ALREADY lost those, and were surviving quite well, thank you. Only the ones still living in the Underdark- which is mainly in the Promenade anywway, a place where Lolthites would have a VERY difficult time reaching them much less killing them- would have anything to worry about, and I certainly can see them having some sort of contingencies in place to deal with this problem, should it even become one. Only a small minority of her followers are even based in areas heavily populated by Lolthites in any case. They do most of their conversion work using portals. After all, one of E's portfolio domains is, in fact, the portal domain. See how simple it is? Hmm.... suddenly, I'm seeing a mass exodus of Ched Nasad (the only Lolthite city even mentioned with a possibly permanent presence of Eilistraeeans) via portals, now that the faer'zress effect has been removed. I don'tthink they would all be slaughtered as easily as you claim. Not when they've been preparing for the very ritual that caused the change back in the first place. do you REALLY think she's just leave them to fend for themselves afterward? I don't. That's not in her MO.
Sava- I get that you don't like it, I just don't understand why a simple military metaphor for war is so adverse to you. It's not about controlling the "pawns", it's about out-manuevering your opponent and studying the battlefield to use resources to your best advantage. Now, one might argue that Lolth is far better at this sort of game, so E should have known better. But, I honestly think she was using Lolth's own love of chaos against her, while at the same time demonstrating that she could think just as strategically as Lolth. In the end, that is what chess (or Sava in this case) is all about. It had nothing at all to do with the fight for freedom, which I think is where you've gotten the wrong impression about the game. It was really about their opposing viewpoints, regarding whose way was better. The game was simply their way of proving it. It was a game of strategy and order, with a healthy dose of chance thrown in. What I find interesting about the game was that it delves into the question of just how much influence the gods have on mortal lives. IS there such a thing as free will? Or is that simply an illusion, and mortal actions are preordained and fated? (And since E and Lolth both have some some influence in the domanis of fate or omens/portents, this makes it actually very fitting.) It was a game of FATE, not freedom. Thus, a variant of chess was actually very appropriate. What does that have to do with E's fight for freedom? Very little, actually.
As for Liriel, as of the most recent story (which Corellon'sDevout pointed out) she worshipped Mystra, NOT Eilistraee. Yes, she still respected her, but she was not an actual follower at the time of the LP novels. And given that, being a Baenre would probably have disqualified her from the change, as no other Baneres were transformed. They were from a tainted bloodline, as was Drizzt. Neither actually follows E, so ergo, no change, even though both are "good". Both are still drow.
I agree with several things you said--and I hadn't thought of the sava game that way! That's an interesting take Your last statement had me thinking though, if the change only affected Eilistraeens, then why did Q'arlynd and co change as well? Was it because they used High Magic, and so it was a separate event of what happened with Es followers? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 07:29:24
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It only affected Eilistraeeans, and/OR those with "pure" Miyeritarii blood. In other words, Quarlynd (and Hallistra as well, since she is his sister!) and those who were performing the ritual with him (and I might add they all had the Miyeritarii Kirras) were affected because they had the "pure" blood, regardless of their actual faith. They did not worship Lolth, however, and had none of Wendonai's tain, ergo, they were changed.
And yes, I proposed the idea of disguises, but I specifically stated "MAGIC OR other some other means". And as to how they would get or know about them, the knowledge is apparently common among her followers, regardless of where they are found. It's even been mentioned inthe 2nd ed Demihuman Deities book in her entry. And considering that Quilue and the Eilistraeeans of the Promenade used them, and it most certainly IS in the Underdark, it's very possible that the pigments or what-have-you needed for such "make-up" are found there.
Quote: "surfacers lost their drow magic, but not traits"
Correction- in Daughter of the Drow, Liriel (the only reference she's good for in this discussion is for the info on E's followers that is given in the series) encountered a band of them on the surface, and they had lost ALL the traits. Their magic, even the darkvision (actually infravision at that time) was diminished tothat of a normal elf for the ones living on the surface. This was before 3rd ed changed their vision, so yes, they lost that advantage, too.
Another point that needs to be remembered is that it was NOT a sacrifice. Halisstra killed E with the Crescent Blade after being confused and tricked by Lolth's mental suggestions and halucinations. Eilistraee/Quilue was attempting to offer her a second chance, and she blew it. It's that simple. She fell for Lolth's trick, and killed her one hope of salvation. This was not part of Eilistraee's plan. Perhaps she might have forseen it (and possibly knew the outcome was inevitable) but it was not in her plan. The ritual was, but not hers or Cavatina's deaths.
As far as them playing the game against Lolth, I'll grant you that E at least should have known better than to play by her mother's rules, but she also saw an opportunity to do something that would free a significant portion of the drow population from Lolth's influence FOREVER. They were beyond her reach- this is far more important than any physical "redemption" or removal of the curse. That was the ultimate goal all along- to make them untouchable by Lolth, even in death! In other words, she couldn't even claim any of the souls of those who were killed. It wasn't about the physical change at all, ultimately, it was about literally saving their souls.
Which brings me to Liriel again. She didn't NEED saving, as she had already made her choice- and it was niether E nor Lolth. She chose magic(Mystra) over both, and so was removed from the playing field. Just as Drizzt was removed by following Meilikki. That's why they were not included in the change. They were not part of the conflict! The same could be said of any drow who followed other gods, as well. There is a significant portion of Sshamath's population that follows gods other than Lolth (mainly Mystra, if memory serves) and those were therefore not affected either, unless they were of Miyeritarii blood. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 10:16:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
It only affected Eilistraeeans, and/OR those with "pure" Miyeritarii blood. In other words, Quarlynd (and Hallistra as well, since she is his sister!) and those who were performing the ritual with him (and I might add they all had the Miyeritarii Kirras) were affected because they had the "pure" blood, regardless of their actual faith. They did not worship Lolth, however, and had none of Wendonai's tain, ergo, they were changed.
And yes, I proposed the idea of disguises, but I specifically stated "MAGIC OR other some other means". And as to how they would get or know about them, the knowledge is apparently common among her followers, regardless of where they are found. It's even been mentioned inthe 2nd ed Demihuman Deities book in her entry. And considering that Quilue and the Eilistraeeans of the Promenade used them, and it most certainly IS in the Underdark, it's very possible that the pigments or what-have-you needed for such "make-up" are found there.
I don't think that the people you mentioned were the only pure miyeritari. So take a random 'pure miyeritari' in a drow city who doesn't worship E, knows nothing about pigments etc.. (which should be the larger part of pure miyeritari) then he/she's in a bad situation.
quote:
Quote: "surfacers lost their drow magic, but not traits"
Correction- in Daughter of the Drow, Liriel (the only reference she's good for in this discussion is for the info on E's followers that is given in the series) encountered a band of them on the surface, and they had lost ALL the traits. Their magic, even the darkvision (actually infravision at that time) was diminished tothat of a normal elf for the ones living on the surface. This was before 3rd ed changed their vision, so yes, they lost that advantage, too.
I don't recall the first group of drow met by Liriel having lost their darkvision, but it seems that I've to check my facts. Nonetheless they could still easily survive because they were on the surface, and -most important- in a sense, it was their choice to lose their drow traits. Other E followers still have their traits tho (that is after 3e, and I guess that it's because of Liriel's quest -even tho I thought it simply made drowcraft work on the surface as well as in the Underdark-).
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Another point that needs to be remembered is that it was NOT a sacrifice. Halisstra killed E with the Crescent Blade after being confused and tricked by Lolth's mental suggestions and halucinations. Eilistraee/Quilue was attempting to offer her a second chance, and she blew it. It's that simple. She fell for Lolth's trick, and killed her one hope of salvation. This was not part of Eilistraee's plan. Perhaps she might have forseen it (and possibly knew the outcome was inevitable) but it was not in her plan. The ritual was, but not hers or Cavatina's deaths.
I think so too. Nonetheless, as I said, both options are bad: as I see it, the DS simply had to go out of the window and WotC tried to mask this purpose by adding some events to it.
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As far as them playing the game against Lolth, I'll grant you that E at least should have known better than to play by her mother's rules, but she also saw an opportunity to do something that would free a significant portion of the drow population from Lolth's influence FOREVER. They were beyond her reach- this is far more important than any physical "redemption" or removal of the curse. That was the ultimate goal all along- to make them untouchable by Lolth, even in death! In other words, she couldn't even claim any of the souls of those who were killed. It wasn't about the physical change at all, ultimately, it was about literally saving their souls.
Setting aside the symbolism and so on, the game wasn't needed. It was such a risky gamble to take when Lolth's influence was already being eroded. It was something that both E and V could've achieved simply continuing their fight, instead of walking straight into what is obviously a trap. About the souls, they should already be untouchable by Lolth, no matter how much she could cry and complain about it. Drow who make different choices (including E and V) have already a place to go which is not the Demonweb pits (ultimately, it is Kelemvor who decides where souls go, and Eilsitraeens would go to their goddess).
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Which brings me to Liriel again. She didn't NEED saving, as she had already made her choice- and it was niether E nor Lolth. She chose magic(Mystra) over both, and so was removed from the playing field. Just as Drizzt was removed by following Meilikki. That's why they were not included in the change. They were not part of the conflict! The same could be said of any drow who followed other gods, as well. There is a significant portion of Sshamath's population that follows gods other than Lolth (mainly Mystra, if memory serves) and those were therefore not affected either, unless they were of Miyeritarii blood.
Other drow make their choice as well (don't E and V count?). They are fine and don't need any 'redemption', just like Liriel or Drizzt. E followers have already 'understood' and Vhaerunites too, to an extent (they make their choice as well). Both groups are free in their choices and actions, and this why I see the 'redemption' as pointless overall: it really looks some kind of religious redemption, like removing some sort of 'Original Sin' (and they can already go to their deities' realms after death, which is what they'd want -well perhaps not in Vhaeraun's realm case-). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Oct 2012 10:18:50 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 22:56:34
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@AI: okay, thanks. There are gaps in my knowledge, so I couldn’t remember that Q’arlynd and co were of that bloodline.
We could probably go on and on about the sava game and its purpose, whether it was literal symbolic, whether it is a sign of followers being “pawns” or having freewill. I thought the idea was interesting, and while it does indeed seem like the followers were pawns, if I remember correctly, the followers themselves made moves that neither goddess was expecting, which is not in the nature of pawns. I do not remember these moves, but I seem to remember there were times when E and Lolth were both puzzled. Also, there were deaths that Eilistraee was not happy about.
Eilistraee made some sacrifices, but she choose to make them. She chose to leave Arvandor, and, foolish or not, she chose to play sava with her mother. This could be seen in more than one way, of course. Perhaps E was trying to prove that she could capably lead the drow to redemption, and while she had been doing this for centuries, she decided to pit herself against her mother to say “hey, I’m a match for you.” She might have fallen for Lolth’s trick (as AI pointed out), but I don’t think things completely backfired. Eilistraee knew the stakes were high, and while you could say that Corellon showed no grief for his daughter and was just taking advantage of the fact that her followers were his now, I think Eilistraee was counting on him to come. Did they have a conversation about it? Probably not, but E knew he’d probably take her followers in if she died, or at least save her realm from destruction. And remember, if Corellon showed grief and weakness at his daughter’s death and in front of Lolth, she’d take advantage of it. Eilistraee played against her mother in the hopes that she would prevail, but she also had to have known that it wasn’t going to be an easy victory. There was a lot she hadn’t planned on (I don’t think it was her plan to merge with her brother), but, what if, as we were discussing earlier, E’s not dead and secretly in hiding? Correct me if I’m wrong, but she joined with Qilue at the end right, and then Halisstra pounced? Crescent Blade or not, I don’t think it would be that easy to kill a god. It killed Selvatarm, but…still *shrugs* E may have been a lesser deity, but she had also merged with her brother, and surely she must have gained some of his powers, which would strengthen her.
I think Vhaeraun’s realm is better than Lolth’s. I don’t think he punishes like she does, and it improved further when Vhaeraun and Eilistraee become the Masked Lady. I preferred them as separate entities, because I liked Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as individuals (and by Eilistraee taking in Vhaeraun instead of the other way around, you could argue “oh, the females win yet again”, but that probably isn’t important to this discussion), but if WotC didn’t want to bring back both as individuals, I could live with the Masked Lady, though I’d much prefer to have them both. It does make you wonder though: V’s realm became a part of E’s when he died right? What will happen when they both come back? Will Vhaeraun fight Eilistraee to get his followers back, or is this going to be settled by Ao too, and he just distributes the followers to their respective deities? I’d have mixed feelings about this. I don’t want the souls destroyed, and I want E and V back. If they return, will E’s realm be “sundered” too, because V’s is separating from it once more? And if the conflict between these two deities will be shown through their followers, you have to wonder how it is going to play out, because a lot (though not all), Vhaeraunites starting following Eilistraee after Vhaeraun merged with her. Many were probably hoping Vhaeraun’s essence would eventually take over, but that doesn’t change the fact they started co-existing with the Es fairly quickly, at least those around the Promenade.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 08:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Eilistraee made some sacrifices, but she choose to make them. She chose to leave Arvandor, and, foolish or not, she chose to play sava with her mother. This could be seen in more than one way, of course. Perhaps E was trying to prove that she could capably lead the drow to redemption, and while she had been doing this for centuries, she decided to pit herself against her mother to say “hey, I’m a match for you.” She might have fallen for Lolth’s trick (as AI pointed out), but I don’t think things completely backfired. Eilistraee knew the stakes were high, and while you could say that Corellon showed no grief for his daughter and was just taking advantage of the fact that her followers were his now, I think Eilistraee was counting on him to come. Did they have a conversation about it? Probably not, but E knew he’d probably take her followers in if she died, or at least save her realm from destruction. And remember, if Corellon showed grief and weakness at his daughter’s death and in front of Lolth, she’d take advantage of it. Eilistraee played against her mother in the hopes that she would prevail, but she also had to have known that it wasn’t going to be an easy victory. There was a lot she hadn’t planned on (I don’t think it was her plan to merge with her brother), but, what if, as we were discussing earlier, E’s not dead and secretly in hiding? Correct me if I’m wrong, but she joined with Qilue at the end right, and then Halisstra pounced? Crescent Blade or not, I don’t think it would be that easy to kill a god. It killed Selvatarm, but…still *shrugs* E may have been a lesser deity, but she had also merged with her brother, and surely she must have gained some of his powers, which would strengthen her.
And again, why would Eilistraee gamble all of it, especially after she gave away so much in order to be able? Sure she's impulsive, but not stupid -she's a damn deity-. The 'Corellon might take her followers' is not a good reason: I mean, it's possible, but just why would this affect E's decision? It is her and her people's battle, and passionate and rebel as she is, she would never potentially screw her quest for NO reason in a gamble that Lolth proposed (also, as if drow couldn't choose whatever they wished after the game, because of it sealing their fate), just because if she died, Corellon (or any other goodly deity) could take her place (but again, not her mission. And in fact he didn't) -it's hers, after she put so much effort in it-. Instead what I'd expect from her is simply continuing fight for it as she was doing (and according to Ed's take, she was doing fairly well in it). Maybe, what I could understand is Eilistraee trying to get Corellon help in this, giving away her divinity for him to take her place vs Lolth, but not in helping the drow to find freedom (which she could easily keep doing).
Anyway, I feel like we're going in circles here. I guess the conclusion is that E and V should just be back in canon in whatever (alive) form, and in a way that could give a sense to the LP. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 17:25:58
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Corellon taking her followers may or may not have helped her decision, but I guess what I meant was should she fail, at least her followers and her realm had something to fall back on, so to speak (I'll admit that may have been a bad word choice). It was more of a contingency. I wasn't suggesting she was thinking "oh, well, I'm probably going to fail here, but daddy will take my place". No, that wasn't what I meant, though it may have sounded that way. I may have been in the back of her mind, but that's not why she played sava with Lolth (personally, I don't even think Corellon should be playing sava with her, as the end of LP implied. She cheats). Sorry. I wasn't trying to imply she was doing a bad job. Keep in mind I like Eilistraee too. I was not happy with her death. I'm just trying to look at it in different ways (things come to me as this discussion goes on, though you're right in that we probably are going in circles, and we won't really know the answers unless WotC lets us).
I just think that a lot of this came down to E's choices--I'm not saying they were bad ones. Her choice to leave Arvandor to help the drow was a good one. When she played sava with Lolth, even being a deity, she couldn't have known the outcome, or she probably wouldn't have played. But...then again, maybe she did know, and it was all part of her plan. I don't know. She kmew more than Vhaearaun, at least, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to kill her. I like Vhaeraun a lot, despite him being evil aligned (Mask is evil-aligned and I like him too), but attacking E in her own realm wasn't the best move, IMO. But even being gods, there were things E and Lolth couldn't have known--such as some of the moves the "pieces" on the sava board made.
I want V and E back, but personally, I don't like the idea of them being archfey. I'd rather have them as at least demigods. I remember someone--maybe it was you, Irenan, I can't remember--saying them working their way back up to godhood would make for some intersting stories. I agree, but if the gods are going to be less active in 5e, and we won't have any novels about them, then these stories might not happen. I mean yeah, it could be told through their followers, but I think E and V themselves would have to be shown "ascending" at some point. This is why I have mixed feelings about the Sundering. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 20:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Corellon taking her followers may or may not have helped her decision, but I guess what I meant was should she fail, at least her followers and her realm had something to fall back on, so to speak (I'll admit that may have been a bad word choice). It was more of a contingency. I wasn't suggesting she was thinking "oh, well, I'm probably going to fail here, but daddy will take my place". No, that wasn't what I meant, though it may have sounded that way. I may have been in the back of her mind, but that's not why she played sava with Lolth (personally, I don't even think Corellon should be playing sava with her, as the end of LP implied. She cheats). Sorry. I wasn't trying to imply she was doing a bad job. Keep in mind I like Eilistraee too. I was not happy with her death. I'm just trying to look at it in different ways (things come to me as this discussion goes on, though you're right in that we probably are going in circles, and we won't really know the answers unless WotC lets us).
I just think that a lot of this came down to E's choices--I'm not saying they were bad ones. Her choice to leave Arvandor to help the drow was a good one. When she played sava with Lolth, even being a deity, she couldn't have known the outcome, or she probably wouldn't have played. But...then again, maybe she did know, and it was all part of her plan. I don't know. She kmew more than Vhaearaun, at least, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to kill her. I like Vhaeraun a lot, despite him being evil aligned (Mask is evil-aligned and I like him too), but attacking E in her own realm wasn't the best move, IMO. But even being gods, there were things E and Lolth couldn't have known--such as some of the moves the "pieces" on the sava board made.
I want V and E back, but personally, I don't like the idea of them being archfey. I'd rather have them as at least demigods. I remember someone--maybe it was you, Irenan, I can't remember--saying them working their way back up to godhood would make for some intersting stories. I agree, but if the gods are going to be less active in 5e, and we won't have any novels about them, then these stories might not happen. I mean yeah, it could be told through their followers, but I think E and V themselves would have to be shown "ascending" at some point. This is why I have mixed feelings about the Sundering.
I apologize about sounding aggressive, it wasn't my intention to do so, but this is a hm.. sensitive topic for me.
Anyway, the events in those books really bring a lot of questions and troubles with them, no matter from which perspective you look at them. The DS had to go, drow sell a lot, they wrote those novel. I think that it's kind of good -in a sense- that the events in the books are vague in certain key points, or have little sense in others: this gives space and valid reasons to bring the two siblings back (and -according to Lisa Smedman- she left such loopholes on purpose, to not make (what I deem) such a waste definitive), as it was being done for the Menzo book.
As for the archfey issue: I really don't care, I only want them back (and I think that we'd be lucky to even get 'em in canon as archfey). If you're bothered by the where their followers would go in the afterlife, archfey could make pacts with gods, having them take their followers' souls after death (and I easily see Eilistraee making a pact with Selune, Corellon, or other deities in the Seldarine.). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 19 Oct 2012 20:01:47 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 22:51:44
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Personally (as in 'my own take'), I say anything of fey decent winds up in the Feywild, one way or anther. The Feywild may even have its own version of the Fugue Plane.
So it doesn't really matter - the Seldarine's Realm is already intricately linked to the Feywild (and was probably just a region of Faerie at one point). You don't get to pick the plane, just the neighborhood. The entire concept of 'Elven God' and 'Archfey' is a D&D mechanic (terminology, really), and barely that - it matters NOT AT ALL. I think that all True fey are Archfey - the ones that were born before the world was sundered, and the creatori (Creator races) became 'mortal'. the Fey were left with a choice - they could either be wiped-out with the rest, or 'ascend', which in a way means they actually committed 'mass suicide' (since they destroyed their physical forms on the Prime Material in the process). They knew they had to go - they just chose how. This means that Archfey are all deities, they just arrived at that condition a bit differently then most beings do. Not many of those originals are still left - immortals (demi-powers) can still 'die' by violence, accident, or even some form of magical ailment. Some - like the Seldarine - may have risen to true deific status, while others (the Le'Shay?) retain their exarch tier. It doesn't really matter - its all just mortal terminology to explain concepts beyond their understanding.
I think that everyone goes to (the plane) precisely where they ought to go, based upon their personality. Certain exceptional deeds might get you into one of the heavens or hells (and a deity's realm is just a personalized 'heaven'... or hell), but you are heading in that general direction anyway. That way, even when a godly domain is destroyed, the petitioners therein can still migrate to other parts of the plane their god's domain sat in.
If you are fey, you wind-up in the Feywild, end of story.... unless you do something exceptional, which includes worshiping some other god(s) then 'normal'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Oct 2014 15:50:03 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 04:53:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Corellon taking her followers may or may not have helped her decision, but I guess what I meant was should she fail, at least her followers and her realm had something to fall back on, so to speak (I'll admit that may have been a bad word choice). It was more of a contingency. I wasn't suggesting she was thinking "oh, well, I'm probably going to fail here, but daddy will take my place". No, that wasn't what I meant, though it may have sounded that way. I may have been in the back of her mind, but that's not why she played sava with Lolth (personally, I don't even think Corellon should be playing sava with her, as the end of LP implied. She cheats). Sorry. I wasn't trying to imply she was doing a bad job. Keep in mind I like Eilistraee too. I was not happy with her death. I'm just trying to look at it in different ways (things come to me as this discussion goes on, though you're right in that we probably are going in circles, and we won't really know the answers unless WotC lets us).
I just think that a lot of this came down to E's choices--I'm not saying they were bad ones. Her choice to leave Arvandor to help the drow was a good one. When she played sava with Lolth, even being a deity, she couldn't have known the outcome, or she probably wouldn't have played. But...then again, maybe she did know, and it was all part of her plan. I don't know. She kmew more than Vhaearaun, at least, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to kill her. I like Vhaeraun a lot, despite him being evil aligned (Mask is evil-aligned and I like him too), but attacking E in her own realm wasn't the best move, IMO. But even being gods, there were things E and Lolth couldn't have known--such as some of the moves the "pieces" on the sava board made.
I want V and E back, but personally, I don't like the idea of them being archfey. I'd rather have them as at least demigods. I remember someone--maybe it was you, Irenan, I can't remember--saying them working their way back up to godhood would make for some intersting stories. I agree, but if the gods are going to be less active in 5e, and we won't have any novels about them, then these stories might not happen. I mean yeah, it could be told through their followers, but I think E and V themselves would have to be shown "ascending" at some point. This is why I have mixed feelings about the Sundering.
I apologize about sounding aggressive, it wasn't my intention to do so, but this is a hm.. sensitive topic for me.
Anyway, the events in those books really bring a lot of questions and troubles with them, no matter from which perspective you look at them. The DS had to go, drow sell a lot, they wrote those novel. I think that it's kind of good -in a sense- that the events in the books are vague in certain key points, or have little sense in others: this gives space and valid reasons to bring the two siblings back (and -according to Lisa Smedman- she left such loopholes on purpose, to not make (what I deem) such a waste definitive), as it was being done for the Menzo book.
As for the archfey issue: I really don't care, I only want them back (and I think that we'd be lucky to even get 'em in canon as archfey). If you're bothered by the where their followers would go in the afterlife, archfey could make pacts with gods, having them take their followers' souls after death (and I easily see Eilistraee making a pact with Selune, Corellon, or other deities in the Seldarine.).
The Realms matters to all of us, and we all have things that we're passionate/sensitive about it. Goodness knows I have mine (much of which concerns the gods--particularly the Seldarine-and the elves, so I'm naturally going to advocate for them, whether WotC is planning to go in that direction or not).
This was another problem I had with 4e: other than Drizzt, the drow took a backseat (at least until recently). The results of LP were left alone, which, IMO, was a mistake. It makes you wonder what the "dark elves" were doing in that century of time. That might actually create a good story though: V and E's reclamation of their followers.
I agree that having them as archfey would be better than not having them at all, I just -prefer- them as gods. Mmm, that's true, they could could make pacts with the other gods (and Corellon might keep the souls of E's followers until she regains her godhood, anyway). I'd like to see V and E's re-ascension to godhood, but that might prove difficult if the gods are going to take a backseat. I mean, yes, it could be told through their followers, but, at least in my opinion, it wouldn't have the same affect. Drow are a very religion-oriented people. Yes, you have those who are less involved, but drow society is built on theology. It's the same way with the elves, though to a somewhat lesser extent.
Whatever one's feelings about the "brown drow", I think it should be addressed. I don't like it just being "left open". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 10:08:02
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| Drow being so dependent on religion could exactly be the point of having Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as Archfey (or exarchs). As deities they fight for the dark elves to make their own choices and be free, but even while doing so, many (not all, ofc) drow who follow them would still be reliant on divine figures (and this is why Eilistraee tries to not meddle at all in their lives: she's there for them -even helping them- but when it comes to choose one's future, as a deity all she does is showing the drow an alternative). The archfey solution would take the siblings more on mortal level, making them something like charismatic leaders of a rebellion. They would still be able to inspire the drow and ignite the fight for freedom, but wouldn't be able to offer what a deity does, forcing the ones who follow them to grow independent on divine support. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Oct 2012 10:09:51 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 23:46:59
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I don't see it as dependance on divine support- it's more like religious fanatacism, at least regarding Lolth (and possibly Vaerhaun, as well). That stems more from a very narrowly focused view of what is acceptable or desired, as opposed to "Wah, I want my Blankie(deity)!" dependence. With E, that kind of fanatacism is utterly discouraged- it's simply not what she is about. Where the other two want to RULE the lives of the drow (and make no mistake, even Vaerhaun does- he's NOT a "freedom fighter" by any means, he's just determined to steal what his mother has claimed, by any means neccessary), E simply wishes to show them another way, that does not involve stepping on each other for "powah and da monies!" or acting like a much magnified version of the Vyshaan clan(meaning, arrogant, power-hungry and tretcherous). She wants them to return to the "true" elven ways, which is her ultimate goal in the end. To that end, yes, she wants them free of Lolth, but mostly so they can once more rejoin the elven race as respected and accepted equals.
It's a question of redemption, yes, but not from original sin, so much as TO the way they once were before they fell to Lolth's (and Vaerhaun's, and Ghuanadaur's, and...) influence. She is saddened by what they have become, and wishes more than anything to return them to their true selves- which as it happens, was the Ssri'Tel'Quessir! That's what the change was really about in the first place, to return them to their rightful place- it's right there in her message! "Come and take your rightful place in the Lands Above, where trees and flowers grow." |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 01:59:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I don't see it as dependance on divine support- it's more like religious fanatacism, at least regarding Lolth (and possibly Vaerhaun, as well). That stems more from a very narrowly focused view of what is acceptable or desired, as opposed to "Wah, I want my Blankie(deity)!" dependence. With E, that kind of fanatacism is utterly discouraged- it's simply not what she is about. Where the other two want to RULE the lives of the drow (and make no mistake, even Vaerhaun does- he's NOT a "freedom fighter" by any means, he's just determined to steal what his mother has claimed, by any means neccessary), E simply wishes to show them another way, that does not involve stepping on each other for "powah and da monies!" or acting like a much magnified version of the Vyshaan clan(meaning, arrogant, power-hungry and tretcherous). She wants them to return to the "true" elven ways, which is her ultimate goal in the end. To that end, yes, she wants them free of Lolth, but mostly so they can once more rejoin the elven race as respected and accepted equals.
Meh, Vhaeraun expects dedication to his cause from his followers, but AFAIK he doesn't impose them what to think or how to live. He's a sort of revolutionary, nothing like Lolth II.
quote:
It's a question of redemption, yes, but not from original sin, so much as TO the way they once were before they fell to Lolth's (and Vaerhaun's, and Ghuanadaur's, and...) influence. She is saddened by what they have become, and wishes more than anything to return them to their true selves- which as it happens, was the Ssri'Tel'Quessir! That's what the change was really about in the first place, to return them to their rightful place- it's right there in her message! "Come and take your rightful place in the Lands Above, where trees and flowers grow."
Maybe, but all this matter of the curse which affects even newborns (who have fault of nothing) and blah... feels a lot like the concept of 'Original Sin'. E wants the drow to be free to forge their own path and be able to go back to their roots, but her followers (and all the ones who got 'redeemed') are already there -free and 'redeemed'- and don't need (or even want) a change in skin color (or any kind of reversal) in order to be happy. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Oct 2012 02:00:14 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 02:32:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Meh, Vhaeraun expects dedication to his cause from his followers, but AFAIK he doesn't impose them what to think or how to live. He's a sort of revolutionary, nothing like Lolth II.
Which is ultimately the same. It's not always that one's way of life synchronizes with the dogma of his deity. Either because the temptation is too strong to ignore, or the faithful is, ironically, not faithful enough. And I doubt any deity, however 'revolutionary,' would tolerate that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 02:37:38
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| No, it's not the same. It is possible to still find one's own spaces while being dedicated to something. Also, I think that most people who 'work' for Vhaeraun's cause (because at the end of the day being an 'active' follower of a deity reduces to that, in D&D) do so because of their choice, not because they were brainwashed into it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Oct 2012 02:38:44 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 03:14:41
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A very limited choice, that is. If you were a drow male, would you choose a goddess that favors the females who savor torturing you and treating you as toys and commodities, or a god that offers 'relative' freedom? Even if such freedom may cost a lot, it's obvious and reasonable what you'd choose. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 09:43:10
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| My point is that once a drow gets out of Lolth's grasp, none forces him/her to still 'work' for Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, or any deity at all (even in the case said person managed to break free with the help of E, or V). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 13:11:01
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| Whatever happened to Rise of the Underdark? Did they give any reason why they stopped the puzzle hunt? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 13:32:19
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The Drow got tired and went back to sleep?
Actually, I think some of that may get wound into the Sundering (along with whatever unfinished, stray bits of of Abyssal Plague and that other series that got cancelled... I can't even recall the name anymore).
Authors don't throw away their ideas (and whatever finished writing they may have done), the simply recycle them as part of something else. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Apr 2013 13:32:47 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 13:41:09
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| I don't really mind them dumping it because it never really got off the ground. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 13:44:22
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| The drow were defeated. The Demon Weave was destroyed and one of Lolth's avatars was killed by some adventurers (with the aid of Mystra, IIRC), while she screamed 'Nooooooooooo' as her plan to wrap Toril in darkness crumbled. Or something along those lines. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 15:59:58
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| In other words, there was no official statement... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 18:13:32
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Yup.
I would assume either there wasn't nearly enough interst generated by it, or that the 'powers that be' have decided to go another route (because the people in charge of certain things have changed).
On the other hand, there was a 20' tall statue of Lolth at last year's Gencon... but that may have been ordered before the story-line was shelfed.
Like I said earlier, I am expecting them to roll some of that (and the Abyssal Plague) into the new Sundering arc. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Apr 2013 18:14:13 |
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Rise of the Underdark
