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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 04:33:13
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The only drow deity I know of that conquered an entire world was Kiaransalee (Threnody), and the idiot killed everyone in the process.
I know Greyhawk fairly well, and the drow were minor players, at best. Now Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood, they're another story.
I think GH portrayed all the Elves better - I'm pretty sick of FR's 'in your face' Eleven superiority. GH was based more on the Tolkien-model (reclusive, elusive, and not very friendly). Now with the retaking of Cormanthor and this Rise of the Underdark thing, we literally have them crawling out of the woodwork everywhere.
like cockroaches... can't someone build a damn roach-motel for drow? just throw some drow-nip (Faezress) in there for bait. Make the inside bigger then the outside, like an inter-dimensional maze, and place a beholder at the center. Drow check-in, but they don't check-out.
And why don't drow use Deepspawn the same way dwarves did? Or is that the entire basis for RotU?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2012 04:34:41 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8101 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 05:57:26
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Ah, I do recall 1E-era elves being a bit paranoid and private. The first time elven characters appear in the Dragonlance tales is when the reasonably famous half-elven hero approaches the very edge of the elven woods and is basically bracketed by arrows while elven voices shout their warnings, insults, demands, and interrogation towards him. In Greyhawk, elven isolation was taken to even further extremes, the "RACIAL PREFERENCES TABLE" in UA showed the best possible results, and they weren't that great, elves did not intrude into the affairs of men or of other elves.
Alas, 2E made elves downright promiscuous. 3E made elves ordinary and unexciting compared to the flashy new races. 4E failed to reinvent elves with unpopular lore about their eladrin "cousins". Too many parties with elves for my grognard tastes, and half of em full of filthy drow. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 12:04:40
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From WotC site:
quote:
"Deep in the Abyssal darkness of the Demonweb Pits, the goddess Lolth is spinning a web of deceit, treachery, and ambition. Her goal is to seize control of arcane magic—a position that has lain vacant since the death of Mystra a hundred years ago.
To facilitate this grasp for power, Lolth sent a prophet—Danifae Yauntyrr—to all the cities of the drow. Danifae is a fallen priest, a scoundrel, a seductress, and—if history is any guide—an avatar of Lolth herself. Danifae whispered to the leaders of all the great drow houses, spurring them to gather ancient power to aid Lolth's ascent.
The drow are scouring the world for primordial relics (pieces of a dead or sleeping primordial), seeking out the remains of great wizards, gathering artifacts once sacred to Mystra, and fighting for control of magical locations on the world's surface.
As the drow gather arcane energy and channel it to Lolth, her power grows. Her web extends to cover most of the world, forming a Demon Weave to replace the sundered Weave that Mystra maintained—a new fabric of arcane magic. With that, the priests and wizards who serve Lolth have access to greater power than ever before, and their task becomes to use it.
Across the surface world, Lolth's servitors draw on the Demon Weave to create shrouds of darkness that cover league upon league of surface lands. Under this pall of darkness, the drow can move and fight freely during what would normally be daylight hours. With this aid, they can complete Lolth's transformation and bring the world to ruin."
So, basically, Lolth will actually craft a new weave and her servants will use it to shroud the world in a permanent night in order to bring ruin on whatever they wish... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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DestroyYouAlot
Seeker
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 12:08:06
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Drow of the Drowerdark, part II: The Drowening. (Now with more drow!)
;) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 13:06:12
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<-----pukes
<-----gags
<-----pukes yet more
And so I'm afraid I can no longer follow where WotC leads me in the Forgotten Realms. I really can't. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 14:13:46
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I really like the quote Irennan postet.
Foremost because it indicates that the drow won't go out and try to conquer any surface realms but steal magical relics and conquer only some sites with magical power. Makes far more sense to me than trying to conquer everything.
Maybe when Lolth recreates the weave while trying to create her demon weave Mystra will be recreated too automatically and take over control again 
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 14:40:17
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
I really like the quote Irennan postet.
Foremost because it indicates that the drow won't go out and try to conquer any surface realms but steal magical relics and conquer only some sites with magical power. Makes far more sense to me than trying to conquer everything.
Maybe when Lolth recreates the weave while trying to create her demon weave Mystra will be recreated too automatically and take over control again
Yeah it makes more sense, but the ''bring ruin'' part doesn't sound too good. Hopefully, this event won't be cataclysmic.
Also, from what I've understood, this Demon Weave will be an alternative source of arcane power, separated from the Weave (maybe, in some ways, like the Shadow Weave). So, I don't think Mystra would have any control over it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8101 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 14:54:08
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Aw now, it's just as likely that the surface world would instead campaign to neutralize the denizens of the Underdark. The surface peoples are generally not motivated by the same hardened evil, but they are far more likely to ally towards a unified cause. How many pesky raids and thefts and crimes can the ever-multiplying drow get away with before everybody else gets fed up enough to hammer them back down into the darkness?
A single demon goddess like Lolth wouldn't fare well against the combined concentrated efforts of several surface deities, and it seems to me Ao wouldn't care overmuch if the religion (and interloping deity) of the drow was diminished into yet another monster cult alongside those of the illithids and beholders. |
[/Ayrik] |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 16:53:21
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If gods (or outsiders) are directly interfering you are right. But if they only order their followers to "go and kill the damned drow" I see a big problem for them.
Allmost none of the surface races are accustomed to the underdark. They can't see anything (without fire or magic) and they don't know any tactics on how to fight in deep dark tunnels and they have no clue where to go to find all those annoying drow cities.
So I guess any small scouting parties would end up getting ambushed by drow patrols if they even have enough luck to meet drow at all instead of running into any other underdark party. Any larger invasion force will fight on a very very big disadvantage and most groups who walk into the underdark wont come out ever again.
For the drow its much easer to get accustomed to the surface because after they get used to the bright sun they can see normaly and scouting in this wide and open world is much easier too. This gives them in both environments the possiblity to choose where to fight and how. And due to their raiding of the surfuce for centuries they allready have a lot of expierience in that matter. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 24 Apr 2012 16:54:54 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 17:08:55
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quote:
Originally posted by DestroyYouAlot
Drow of the Drowerdark, part II: The Drowening. (Now with more drow!)
;)
Don't forget Drow of the Drowerdark, part III: When Shades Attack (when Drow Shades overthrow the Matron Mothers!) |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 17:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
If gods (or outsiders) are directly interfering you are right. But if they only order their followers to "go and kill the damned drow" I see a big problem for them.
Allmost none of the surface races are accustomed to the underdark. They can't see anything (without fire or magic) and they don't know any tactics on how to fight in deep dark tunnels and they have no clue where to go to find all those annoying drow cities.
So I guess any small scouting parties would end up getting ambushed by drow patrols if they even have enough luck to meet drow at all instead of running into any other underdark party. Any larger invasion force will fight on a very very big disadvantage and most groups who walk into the underdark wont come out ever again.
For the drow its much easer to get accustomed to the surface because after they get used to the bright sun they can see normaly and scouting in this wide and open world is much easier too. This gives them in both environments the possiblity to choose where to fight and how. And due to their raiding of the surfuce for centuries they allready have a lot of expierience in that matter.
One part I agree with: surface races invading the underdark would be much the same as Historical European Powers invading Russia...it just shouldn't be done. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 17:18:51
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I would welcome the attempt, but not the success. Their chaotic nature is excuse enough for them to try this surface world invasion thing, but the same nature would also be their undoing... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37018 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 18:04:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
If gods (or outsiders) are directly interfering you are right. But if they only order their followers to "go and kill the damned drow" I see a big problem for them.
Allmost none of the surface races are accustomed to the underdark. They can't see anything (without fire or magic) and they don't know any tactics on how to fight in deep dark tunnels and they have no clue where to go to find all those annoying drow cities.
So I guess any small scouting parties would end up getting ambushed by drow patrols if they even have enough luck to meet drow at all instead of running into any other underdark party. Any larger invasion force will fight on a very very big disadvantage and most groups who walk into the underdark wont come out ever again.
For the drow its much easer to get accustomed to the surface because after they get used to the bright sun they can see normaly and scouting in this wide and open world is much easier too. This gives them in both environments the possiblity to choose where to fight and how. And due to their raiding of the surfuce for centuries they allready have a lot of expierience in that matter.
One part I agree with: surface races invading the underdark would be much the same as Historical European Powers invading Russia...it just shouldn't be done.
I'd put better odds on invading Russia during the winter, than invading the Underdark any time of year!  |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8101 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 18:26:15
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| I suppose that all depends on opinions. I personally feel that drow should have as much difficulty attacking elven settlements as elves would face attacking drow settlements. Unless the goal is complete genocide it's not necessary to locate and destroy every possible stronghold - it's only required to establish a killing field which makes incursions between the Underdark and the surface suicidally expensive. Personally, I would consider the drow at a disadvantage since biowarfare (introduction and oversaturation of monster populations) can force them to retreat and consume their natural resources, chemical warfare (toxic or corrosive gases and surfaces) can be used to control movements, and - if all else fails - the surface people always have the option of just digging until everything is revealed or collapsed. Underdark dwellers don't have as many options for poisoning or collapsing the sky. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 18:53:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
New info on RotU posted here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ro3/20120424
Reminds me of the old 2E Elves book where it talks about the great elven war where Lolth covered the lands in loathsome black clouds so her forces could move freely.
Pretty cool. I can't imagine it is going to last, but should be an interesting ride. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 19:18:47
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I do think on the average the drow are FAR superior to the surface elves in terms of power. The typical drow warrior is worth 5-10 surface elf warriors, who themselves are better than standard human warriors. Largely what's kept the drow in check is their division--if Lolth wanted to/were able to unite the whole race, I could see something like this being a real threat.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 19:25:41
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While a drow invasion of the surface might make for a good storyline, I see a number of issues that make me doubt the ability of the drow to achieve anything on the operational and strategic level. Tactically I have no problem seeing a drow platoon or even company wiping out an equivalently sized unit of any surface army, but tactical success does not win a war in our world, and I see too many reasons for drow to fail on the large scale with no compelling reasons for them to succeed.
One thing that I think we tend to forget that would heavily curtail a full scale drow-surface war is the immense logistical problems the drow armies would face. With small raiding parties from drow cities it is reasonable to assume that they can pass through the dangerous Underdark with enough supplies to last them for a couple of days, but moving armies is something else entirely. The Underdark is a convoluted and incredibly dangerous place, as well as hostile to most forms of life. To move armies on a scale large enough to affect numerous surface nations the drow would need an immense supply chain at the least, and possibly siege engines since even the magic heavy drow army couldn't completely rely on magic to take fortified cities. Supply wagons dragged by Rothe or whatever other Underdark creature they could press into service would be slow and very tempting targets for unintelligent and intelligent monsters, as well as for raiders from one of the many deadly races that the drow have angered. A long, slow march through the Underdark would cause losses from the deadly Underdark dangers and, with a race as fractured and prone to assassination and infighting as the drow, would cause more losses as they live up to their natures. Particularly hard hit, in my opinion, would be their officers and senior NCO equivalents. Underlings who have coveted their spots and, likely, suffered abuse and torture at their hands, would seek and find many opportunities on a long, dangerous march to strike out and ensure a promotion for themselves.
Luckily for the drow, the old "drow weapons disintegrate in sunlight" seems to have faded completely out in later editions, otherwise supplying a force capable of fighting after just a day or two would be absurdly convoluted, requiring either constant retreat to the Underdark or a constant influx of new weapons. While a case can be made for the drow "living off the land" that may be tougher in a magical army than simply ensuring enough food is captured. Arcane and divine components for the drow's casters may be extremely rare or even unknown on the surface, as they have had to tailor their spellcasting as a result of being in the Underdark.
After logistical concerns, there would be major concerns in my mind as to the drow leadership. Anyone who has risen to a position of power in a drow society, by nature, looks out for themselves and their interests first. Coalition fighting has been dicey even in human history(just look at WWII joint British-American operations, especially early on, for a very mild example of such problems) and among drow it would be a new exercise in chaos. Every city-state of theirs is independent and often feels superior to it's rival city states, though as the Ancient Greeks have shown that doesn't preclude working together for a common purpose with enough need. Worse is the fact that even within each city the various houses are constantly at odds, and each house is basically a self-contained military force not ideally suited for working together. Each house uses a different set of tactics and equipment, most have slave forces from all sorts of different races that also are integrated into each house differently, and trying to combine such disparate forces, in my opinion, would be beyond the leadership and cooperation abilities of the drow. The difference between a united, professional force like Cormyr's Purple Dragons, and a coalition of drow houses that, even now, know they might be called on to fight and kill the house fighting next to them, would be incredible.
Imagine being a leader of the military force from a mid-level house in Menzoberranzan receiving orders from a leader in charge of the operation who comes from a house just above you that your house matron has plans to attack. The orders have you assault a fortified, dangerous position, while through your spies you learn that the army from the house above yours is being put into a much more lightly defended position. Do you immediately follow these orders, or do you appeal to your matron, half-commit, or in some other way make sure your troops don't march into the meat grinder for the benefit of the houses above you? In a major battle such a delay could be ruinous enough in the tactical sense, but I feel it would be on the operational scale that command and control aspects of a drow army would truly show their weaknesses, as armies that fail to maneuver well on the large scale usually fail to win campaigns, especially when these armies would already be operating at the far end of a tenuous and expensive supply chain, in unfamiliar and hostile terrain, and in an area where almost the entire civilian population would be on the side of the defender.
Finally, how do the drow mobilize for such a war? No house would willingly empty it's barracks and send the bulk of their forces to a faraway surface war lest it make itself a target for the houses below it. Heck, what Matron Mother would commit to being away from home for at least a campaign season, and who would they trust to leave in charge? Every daughter and most of her sons would likely wish to supplant her. Forget house to house rivalry, internal politics of the houses are deadly enough to hamper any collective effort by the drow as a nation. A matron who sends her daughter and a large number of forces to a surface campaign risks her daughter usurping her troops' loyalty and coming home with power and magic to defeat her, while a matron who leads the troops herself risks the inverse, her coming back weakened to a daughter who won't lightly release the power she has been wielding.
If anyone has ideas for how the drow as a collective force would overcome such massive disadvantages, short of "Lloth makes them work together", maybe the idea of a full drow invasion would seem less ridiculous to me. As it is though, I just don't see how they overcome their logistical issues, their convoluted "organization", the impossibilities of finding an acceptable command structure, and the problems that always pop up with fighting in unfamiliar terrain and subjugating a hostile population(the drow trying to occupy the dales? Yeah, that's gonna work real well long term...) with the hostile sunlight hampering them even further.
Edit: Ok, if I see it right the daylight will be less of a problem because of a convenient magical effect of some kind(guess Lathander, or Amaunator since it's 4e, and his followers will twiddle their thumbs while Lloth and her followers do that), so the surface will be a little less hostile. |
Edited by - idilippy on 24 Apr 2012 19:39:28 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 19:42:03
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I hate this idea...I really do; but unfortunately for the surface world of Faerun, the Drow do not have to invade every part to rule.
The Shades have given a perfect example of how to control a mass of people via fear and threat without directly ruling.
The Drow have only need to control those who rule...not rule all.
Adventuring parties hired by benefactors can accomplish many things...and if the proper route of middle-men are used, even Paladins and such can be pulled into doing the will of the Drow.
Mercenary forces well placed before the Drow even emerge are also a factor...the Drow houses use "slaves" all the time.
Nothing to stop them now from doing the same to the surface races. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8101 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 20:11:27
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quote:
Erik Scott de Bie
I do think on the average the drow are FAR superior to the surface elves in terms of power. The typical drow warrior is worth 5-10 surface elf warriors, who themselves are better than standard human warriors. Largely what's kept the drow in check is their division--if Lolth wanted to/were able to unite the whole race, I could see something like this being a real threat.
In this we disagree. I think the only drow we've been exposed to are extraordinary individuals like Drizzt, prominent and powerful members of drow households, skirmish and raiding parties. In short, we've seen the RAS Hollywood glamour-fakery, champions and heroes (and villains), hardened house-trained military veterans who've all graduated from several human lifespans of the most elite training available. We have not seen the other 99% of the drow, the ones who aren't remarkable at all, the ones who suck in combat.
To be sure, your typical drow on a surface excursion is a competent warrior who could effortlessly hack through typical noncombatant surface elves all night until his arm tires. In fact, the mettle of the drow is largely measured by treachery and deceit, overtaking undefended villagers, hardly facing any combat other than a foolishly stubborn hammer-wielding blacksmith, some drunken cadets, or a random itinerant wizard. Drow do not attack military fortifications, they do not battle against proper military units who have training, experience, and equipment comparable to their own, they invariably retreat from any actions which distract from their surface mission objectives. I think that if they actually fought worthy opponents their kill ratios would be very close to 1-to-1.
Again, it's all a matter of opinion. My opinion about the drow was formatively shaped by the AD&D (1E) Fiend Folio entries, where the drow are formidable but hardly invincible; the drow edge and advantages over their surface counterparts depends very much on their being in the Underdark, I feel the situation should be reversed on the surface. The main reason large scale invasion attempts don't occur is quite simply that each race prefers its niche and finds the other environment too hazardous and unpleasant to really be worth much effort. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Apr 2012 20:14:51 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1309 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 20:24:19
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quote:
The main reason large scale invasion attempts don't occur is quite simply that each race prefers its niche and finds the other environment too hazardous and unpleasant to really be worth much effort.
This. I hate RSE for the point of selling books as a precursor to my opinions, but every book I've read about Drow surface intentions is usually a quick stab in the face and retreat to the nicer underdark. With a few outlying exceptions, they don't want to rule the surface from the surface. They want to rule the surface from far below.
I'm not sure how they'd accomplish this. But I'm sure they will temporarily before being utterly defeated yet again so we can have our RSE of the month or whatever and sell some books. Yay. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 20:42:37
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The Shades, however, were an unknown and when they took over Sembia they did so through the existing power structure of the country. This doesn't mesh with the advertised "drow armies marching under darkness" theme for this storyline. Furthermore, the drow are not an unknown that people in the Heartlands would happily ally with until they get drug more and more into being controlled by them. Drow are very well known, particularly by the elves who, though I don't like it, are established in Cormanthor in the 4e Realms.
Adventuring Parties, as important as they are when we DM them, are a tactical force at best, and an unpredictable one at that. You don't win a war with small, elite groups. They can be used well to solve specific problems but an adventuring party doesn't replace the need for operational success. Furthermore, both sides can and would use these resources, and in the Heartlands especially the surface world would have a much higher access to such groups. Heck, Cormyr has so many adventuring parties and wannabe adventurers that they need a charter to be official, and those are just adventurers, not even counting the elite forces of the Purple Dragons and War Wizards. The Dales, as well, are adventurer heavy, and full of guerilla traditions. Add in Bladesingers and other elf elite forces and the surface world's armies would be on the winning side in number of adventuring parties they could utilize.
Mercenaries come with three problems for the drow. The first is paying for them, because while the drow could easily fund a mercenary army I don't know if mentally they would be able to get around the idea of paying for lesser races, rather than just using the slave forces they already have. The second is that mercenaries, by their nature, have to be cautious of how and where they are used, as well as who they work for. It's very hard to consider a mercenary group being convinced that it is a good idea to stand up to the armies of Cormanthor, or meet the Purple Dragons in the field, or even occupy one of the Dales. Finally, there is the problem of size. Using the 2e Gold and Glory book(out of date I know but the only book of mercenaries I know of) I find 10 companies that operate close enough that I could legitimately see them being able to operate in force in Cormyr(The Anaconda, The Blacktalons, Clan Hammerhand, Mercenaries' Guild of Westgate, Mindulgulph Mercenary Company, Red Ravens, Sailors of the Crimson Sea, Silent Rain, The Sirocco, The Teeth). Of those, even if we discount rivalries(like the Mindulgulphs seeing the Blacktalons as enemies), we have to throw out those that would be more likely to work against the drow. The Red Ravens, who are based in Cormyr and careful not to lose their charter; Clan Hammerhand, a group of Lawful Good Dwarves; Silent Rain, who only work to promote elven interests; and The Sirocco, who are NG and work to guard caravans in the Anaurach so aren't likely to leave, each have to be taken out. Of the remainder, we are talking about 800, at most, mercenaries plus whatever the drow could hire from Westgate. Even assuming that they could get an even 1,000 mercenaries from Westgate(mercenaries which are 2nd level dragoons according to the book) that is 1,800 mercenaries. For 1,475 of these mercenaries the drow would shell out 3,270gp each week, and if they want the 200 Mindulgulphs it's 500gp each day, and 120gp per day if they want the Blacktalons for caravan guarding(300gp for a raid). All in all, mercenaries are expensive, add up to a small number of forces at best, and each has it's own rivalries, tactics, and command structure, meaning the drow command and control problems would just be increased by the addition of mercenaries.
Slave troops are a possibility for drow, but a possibility I've already accounted for in their logistical issues. The drow, regardless of their feelings, would need to transport the slaves to the surface and supply them if they want them to accomplish anything while they are there. In addition to losses due to dangers of the Underdark, the slave troops would have to be watched carefully for desertion, have definite morale problems, and are of indifferent quality compounded by indifference by the drow in equipping them. |
Edited by - idilippy on 24 Apr 2012 20:44:31 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 21:17:49
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Disagreed.
One Drow Wizard is all it takes to Charm the Hells out of several humanoid Chiefs...viola, Mercenary Army via payment in power to ONLY ONE ORC.
Notice in the wording of the movie and script that "a web" references many strings being pulled; as well as intrigue being mentioned specifically.
Also, if you don't think a band of adventurers can accomplish much; I am guessing you hold little stock in the Knights of Myth Drannor who acquired the Pendant of Ashaba via their adventures. Bands of adventurers sponsored by Middle-Men will be the ones who look with favor on their former mentor for favors in return. What harm would a Paladin Lord see in bringing "Law and Order" to a lawless (read FREE) area for the sake of the "citizens" there that need protection from Bandits? Nevermind that those "Bandits" are in fact the only thing standing in the way of the Drow establishing their own network of sponsored thieves...and once the Paladin Lord is murdered/assassinated by the Drow who make it look like revenge by those he fought against...
The possibilities are endless for intrigue and obfuscation. My study of criminal organizations has shown me the endless horror faced by Law Enforcement agencies even in a MODERN society...much harder to deal with in the magical and medieval world of Faerun!
All this is in prelude to the actual Drow attacks, that are then supported by advance supply from established and controlled allies/slaves who have been working toward the eventual day when their masters join them.
The intrigues of the Drow make them perfect for this sort of warfare...something more akin to modern political and socio-ecomonic warfare where less is more and the established powers with their tanks can't sweep the battlefield...but are instead locked in urban house to house warfare that the Drow would be masters at compared to their surface opponents who are used to fighting decicisve battles on a field...in a city/town, soldiers would be blade-fodder against the Houses of the Drow Matrons who SPECIALIZE in house to house warfare on a literally life-long basis!
All I really have to say. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 21:43:20
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You missed the point on adventuring parties. The Knights are a fine example, no matter how powerful they are they do not have a massive impact on the operational level of army to army fighting. As powerful and elite as adventuring parties are in tactical small unit combat, they just don't contribute on the large scale as effectively, especially in a land like Cormyr with a large, professional force of powerful wizards working for the state, and a ready supply of these Adventuring companies that would be working against the Drow.
So, even if you think that adventuring parties will be the deciding factor in a large scale war for some reason, which I think is overstating their importance on the large scale army to army engagements, there's no possible way that the Drow have the advantage in adventuring parties that would be used on their side. Cormyr isn't on the level of drow intrigue of course, but their War Wizards aren't idiots. At the signs of incursions and weird actions what is the first thing to happen? The War Wizards would investigate and hire adventuring groups, chartered to work in Cormyr, to do the work they can't or don't want to do. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 23:12:34
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I think the drow are going to cause some serious damage during the assault. If they are going to cover the lands in darkness humans will need torches and dwarves elves etc have darkvision 60 feet. Drow have it out to 120 feet, letting them snipe and retreat before the surface folk can even spot them. Crappy drow soldiers shouldn't be a problem, the bad ones all die in training anyways. And if they empty the slums of weak drow to use as soldiers, they most likely are going to be "streeakh", suicide squads used like fodder. Slave troops probably have some sort of battered-wife syndrome thing going on that keeps them from mass deserting...at least while their masters are alive.
Support logistics...fire up the Twisted Tower, Szith Morcane and other near surface outposts as launching points for the incursions. There's plenty of ruins and such available for use also. Short of unintelligent monsters, no race in their right mind is going to get in the way of several hundred drow on the march. Part of the power the drow hold over others is the sheer terror they instill.
As for infighting destroying the entire effort, I don't think it would be as big a problem as people think. Here's a quote from 2E Underdark "Although treachery and cruelty are often rewarded, Lolth does not look kindly on those who let personal grudges and revenge-taking bring defeat or shame to their House, clan, city, or band." Sure the various factions and houses would have infighting to see who was to blame for the most defeats, but drow aren't all about murder, it's really a game of politics. And this whole deal appears to be a mandate from Lolth or at least sanctioned by her, they aren't going to take any action that derails the plan of their goddess, they'd try to see who received the most glory. Sure there may be some assassinations and stabbings, but the objective remains the same, just different players.
This isn't to say that drow are unstoppable gods, but I'd imagine they have the reputation as how maybe Sparta was viewed back in the day and the skill to back it up. I'm not sure if we're gonna face armies, I'd imagine it will be patrol groups under command of nobles with lots of fodder available as shock troops. Doubt we'd see mercenaries as we know it employed by the drow, but it'd be a rather simple matter to start converting surface monsters and tribes to the cause. Who among them doesn't want loot and plenty of killing?
Personally, I don't mind a few burned down or captured cities and areas under siege. Long as they're not blowing up mountains and calling dragons down from the sky I think it's gonna be fun. Once the drow are gone this will leave lots of room for adding ruins and dungeons to areas. Perfect example: Arabel is pretty detailed, has some nice maps but I think is completely boring. What if half the city is in ruin at the start of 5E? Or the drow left a legion of humanoid rabble that control a portion of the city and PC's must help root them all out. Lotta fun stuff to play around with. |
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Darsson Spellmaker
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 07:21:25
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Personally, I hope Lolth succeeds. It just makes sense to me since the 2e Drow of the Underdark states that drow, more than all the other elven subraces, are the most gifted when it comes to magic. In Silverfall, Dove Falconhand calmly admits that most drow are "masters of magic." So why wouldn't their goddess finally ascend to become the Dark Mother of the Demon Weave? I'd rather have a Demon Weave than no Weave at all. It'll be good to have a reigning deity of magic again. This whole plotline might make me buy some FR novels again, something I haven't done since the advent of 4e.
Again, that's just me. I understand that most everyone on these boards are over-saturated and sick to death of drow, and for that, I'm sorry. I just finished reading the Driz'zt Do'Urden graphic novel omnibus, which I enjoyed immensely, it especially brought home how physically appealing drow are; the ruling council of matron mothers looked like a gathering of supermodels lol.
In addition, D&D Online, which I play, has also introduced this RotU plotline by having Lolth open a portal between Eberron and Faerun, and showering us players with new content to explore and enjoy.
So, all of this has me pumped and excited for all things drow. Bring it on, I say! ;) |
"Know, O mages, that there is learning, and there is wisdom, and they are very far from being the same thing."--Azuth the High One, Utterances from the Altar: Collected Verbal Manifestations of the Divine and Most Holy Lord of Spells (holy chapbook, assembled by anonymous priests of Azuth circa 1358 DR)
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Edited by - Darsson Spellmaker on 25 Apr 2012 07:22:42 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 09:19:42
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quote:
Personally, I hope Lolth succeeds. It just makes sense to me since the 2e Drow of the Underdark states that drow, more than all the other elven subraces, are the most gifted when it comes to magic. In Silverfall, Dove Falconhand calmly admits that most drow are "masters of magic." So why wouldn't their goddess finally ascend to become the Dark Mother of the Demon Weave? I'd rather have a Demon Weave than no Weave at all. It'll be good to have a reigning deity of magic again.
Lolth becoming the new keeper of the Weave would totally suck to me. Having the drow swarming the surface and adding another all-powerful evil to the picture is something that would worsen the situation in my eyes.
Beside, as far as I know, the main reason of the complains about Midnight-Mystra was her NG alignment and her chosen acting according to her moral code instead of just caring about nurturing and promoting magic. Making a CE goddess take Mystra's throne would be even worse from this point of view.
Also (again, as far as I know) the reason the drow are capable in magic is not some innate ability or gifts by Lolth, but exposure to faerzress.
Shortly after the Corellon's Descent the drow were just obsidian skinned elves. They started developing their innate magic after settling in the Underdark.
So, I don't see why Lolth would make a fine goddess of magic. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 13:49:25
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I agree that the drow, even if not commanded by Lloth or Danifae herself could do some serious damage.
I don't want them to be an omnipresent evil either. And I don't think a CE goddess of magic is any better than a NG one. IMHO, the deity of magic should be neutral. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 14:53:06
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I'm sure drizzt will save the day again (yawn).
Although, it will be interesting to see how lolth's bid for magical mastery coincides with the bid to bring mystra back to her former glory.
As far as i'm concerned, the portfolio of magic must be held by a neutral deity. To have it otherwise would destroy the realms, pure and simple. |
Edited by - Arcanus on 25 Apr 2012 15:13:53 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 15:56:30
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
You missed the point on adventuring parties. The Knights are a fine example, no matter how powerful they are they do not have a massive impact on the operational level of army to army fighting. As powerful and elite as adventuring parties are in tactical small unit combat, they just don't contribute on the large scale as effectively, especially in a land like Cormyr with a large, professional force of powerful wizards working for the state, and a ready supply of these Adventuring companies that would be working against the Drow.
So, even if you think that adventuring parties will be the deciding factor in a large scale war for some reason, which I think is overstating their importance on the large scale army to army engagements, there's no possible way that the Drow have the advantage in adventuring parties that would be used on their side. Cormyr isn't on the level of drow intrigue of course, but their War Wizards aren't idiots. At the signs of incursions and weird actions what is the first thing to happen? The War Wizards would investigate and hire adventuring groups, chartered to work in Cormyr, to do the work they can't or don't want to do.
Adventuring Parties are like mercenaries in our world...but of the Special Forces caliber. Osama bin Laden would disagree that a small group of "adventurers" can't have much effect on the over-all balance of war!
Adventurers are notorious busy-bodies that as often attack the tower of an "evil mage" or "tyrannical lord" as they do crawling through ruins looking for treasure.
Bands of human adventurers hitting the leadership of any nation is going to take a toll...no matter how many War Wizards and their lackeys you have; it is that VERY SORT OF BACKSTABBING that the Drow would do and make the War Wizards look like poltroons! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Rise of the Underdark
