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Snow
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 17:12:30
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I sense that there might be a strategic-level "culture alignment" shift coming from the soon-to-be transformational Lolth. I don't think there's any historical canon precedence for it, but we may be seeing Lolth shift from CE in alignment ... to LE. How and why this would happen, I don't really know. But it could fully explain how, via the trickle-down effect, the Drow masses could embrace a more methodical, orderly and precision world-takeover-attempt.
Because as it is, the CE alignment of the collective Faerunian Drow is just too huge a roadblock for world dominance.
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Edited by - Snow on 14 Apr 2012 17:12:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 18:46:42
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It may be a final 'deific downsizing' as well - combining Shar with Lolth. At the same time, they will probably be bringing back some of the Drow Pantheon (at least Eilistraee and Vhaeraun). They could even be going for both.
If they do the downsize-thing (which at this point I'm ambivalent about), then they should have one destroy (and absorb) the other, rather then an "it was always this way" type of explanation.
I could live without Shar - I think most of us are pretty sick of her - and I wouldn't mind seeing her get her 'just deserts' finally. Lolth is infinitely more interesting as FR's 'dark goddess'. If they go this route, they should allow the Malaugrym to majorly nerf the Shades somehow (this would have RW and game repercussions - both positive, IMO).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2012 18:47:08 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 01:47:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why can't a bunch of backstabbing bastards not build a nation? We already have a perfect example of that: Thay. In many ways, the Red Wizards are far worse than drow.
Because the drow would keep backstabbing even during war times.
And the Red Wizards do not do that? You SHOULD read Richard Lee Byers' novels. Excellent and highly recommended, btw.
I don't think the Red Wizards had inner factions trying to destroy/weaken each other while leading their conspiracy to give birth to a separate kingdom from Mulhorand. If they did, I guess their rebellion would have easily been crushed. After Thay became an actual kingdom the Red Wizards went back to their backstabbing.
That'd be the situation of the drow. If this RSE was about the building of a drow nation, then they would do so at expense to many other nations (as shown in that trailer) exposing themselves to heavy resistance.
So, the dark elves would have to change -and for a quite long time- if they wanted to come out successful from all this. And I guess it will be difficult for them, because betrayal for power is an element bound to the mind of every drow grown under Lolth domain (as far as I know, such a drow thinks it is necessary to life itself, which I don't believe a Red Wizard does).
This is where IMO the Red Wizards making their realm differs from the drow possibly trying to make one.
Also, thanks for the novel suggestions.
The two races share the same cruelty and selfishness. If the Red Wizards managed to temporarily set aside their differences to unite for a common goal, I don't see why it can't happen to the drow. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 02:21:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Snow
I sense that there might be a strategic-level "culture alignment" shift coming from the soon-to-be transformational Lolth. I don't think there's any historical canon precedence for it, but we may be seeing Lolth shift from CE in alignment ... to LE. How and why this would happen, I don't really know. But it could fully explain how, via the trickle-down effect, the Drow masses could embrace a more methodical, orderly and precision world-takeover-attempt.
Because as it is, the CE alignment of the collective Faerunian Drow is just too huge a roadblock for world dominance.
Chaos and endless treachery may have been enough for her when she just wanted to be entertained while watching her little cage of hamsters.
But if she's got her sights set on bigger things, then she's gonna need more than a bunch of followers doing their own things, their own way, whenever they feel like it. She's gonna need some law & order, and structure.
Could it be: Our little Lolthie is growing up?  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 02:23:51
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quote:
The two races share the same cruelty and selfishness. If the Red Wizards managed to temporarily set aside their differences to unite for a common goal, I don't see why it can't happen to the drow.
As I said:
A drow born in a lolthian city would see the acts of scheming, plotting and betraying as something physiologic (yeah, the word is a bit exaggerated. Still it gives my point) because through them only the 'strong ones' survive, making their house/city/race 'stronger'. This idea is burned in their mind since their childhood so, as I see it, most of them would have difficulties to overcome it for times long enough to win a wide war and craft/stabilize a nation. With time, that concept becomes kind of part of them.
A Red Wizard, on the other hand, develops his/her cruelty and selfishness by growing in a very competitive and hostile environment, not by brainwashing (which afaik most drow get, at least in the sense of behaving as I said above). So they can more easily set their infighting apart in times of need (not saying that the drow can't, just that it'd be way harder for them). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Apr 2012 02:32:17 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 02:33:19
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Lolth has no reason to change from Chaotic Evil alignment.
Iuz (of Greyhawk), son of one of my all time favorite fiends, has a perfectly viable Empire brewing. While a Lawful Evil society would make it easier to rule an empire...an CE Empire is still not out of the question.
There are perfectly fine examples of Chaotic Good societies (elves anyone?)...this does not preclude their continuance as nations.
I don't see any more problem with a Drow Nation than I do an Elven nation...or a nation ruled by primarily Chaotic individuals. Elven nations are a very good example...chaos does not truly mean anarchy; there is a vast difference between Chaos and Anarchy.
EDIT:
Just as a note, some of our own nations seem very chaotic; but still have perfectly functioning governments. Chaos to me means more individual freedoms...or a lack of governing laws...not anarchy. Chaos as a force doesn't mean that a nation can't exist. The feuding clans of the Great Khan would be seen as Chaotic, until they decend with military might upon a nation...so too would perhaps the Vikings have been seen as wild and chaotic; but in their own society there were codes and laws.
Even among the Drow, there are laws. Drow simply are driven more by independence with evil as a motivating force. They are not a bunch of anarchists. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 15 Apr 2012 02:36:44 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 02:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Lolth has no reason to change from Chaotic Evil alignment.
Iuz (of Greyhawk), son of one of my all time favorite fiends, has a perfectly viable Empire brewing. While a Lawful Evil society would make it easier to rule an empire...an CE Empire is still not out of the question.
There are perfectly fine examples of Chaotic Good societies (elves anyone?)...this does not preclude their continuance as nations.
I don't see any more problem with a Drow Nation than I do an Elven nation...or a nation ruled by primarily Chaotic individuals. Elven nations are a very good example...chaos does not truly mean anarchy; there is a vast difference between Chaos and Anarchy.
But there's a fundamental difference between reserving the right to make up your mind as to the best way to serve the public good (CG), and reserving the right to make up your mind as to the best way to stab your neighbor in the back (CE)! Obviously, one way is not gonna serve as a good basis for starting a society. 
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 02:38:48
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
[quote]
But there's a fundamental difference between reserving the right to make up your mind as to the best way to serve the public good (CG), and reserving the right to make up your mind as to the best way to stab your neighbor in the back (CE)! Obviously, one way is not gonna serve as a good basis for starting a society.
Aye, it may not be a "good" basis; but it is a basis. Otherwise, Drow would not have survived this long as a highly advanced magical civilization with Arts, Crafts and such...but instead would be feral animals of the underdark. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 03:01:50
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The point (well, at least mine) is not in the chaotic nature of drow/elves. I can easily live with a nation of chaotic people.
Of course the drow are not a bunch of anarchists (as I wrote in another post, they have so many rules to follow, some big, others little -and stupid-).
The point is that, as I see it, they will try, in one way or another, to sabotage their rivals even while forging their nation, because of the reasons I listed in previous posts. They might try to do it subtly, softly, to only weaken their rivals instead of removing the important resource they represent from the drow arsenal. However such acts could cause backlash, crippling their nation-building campaign. Their enemies (which in the mass scale invasion presented in the preview would be A LOT) will try to use every single weakness/occasion they find, and those infighting could easily lead to one.
So, while a drow nation might have a possibility to exist, in my eyes it's such a nation's birth the real problem (unless the drow manage to actually change, at least for the time their war will run. Which I wouldn't see as short, if they actually wanted to settle on the surface. So it may lead to a somehow durable change).
Also
quote:
Drow would not have survived this long as a highly advanced magical civilization with Arts, Crafts and such
As far as I know, their 'civilization' consists of a bunch of scattered underground cities (magnificent, yes, still just some cities), which at times battle each other. In many millenia they haven't been able to build a nation or to defeat their enemies in the Underdark. To me, this is a proof that it'd be hard for the drow to craft a nation. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Apr 2012 03:12:44 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 03:12:12
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The Greek City States could be seen in the same light...not until united by an external force were they capable of more than being simply a localized force in the annals of early civilization.
Greek politics were far more intricate in certain ways than even the writings of the Drow I've seen to date...
To an outsider the Greeks were viewed as chaotic barbarians...today we see them as the founders of Western Civilization (even though that isn't true). |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 03:21:13
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Greeks' minds weren't filled by religious dogma about how backstabbing each other is the only true way of life because it filters the strong, giving only the worthy ones the access to the 'power' they deserve.
Most drow would find difficult to believe that behaving in a different way would bring good on them.
So, while coordinated -even massive- raids are easy to them, long term campaigns would be much more difficult because of their mentality. Sure, as I said, not impossible, but very difficult. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Apr 2012 03:21:56 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 04:33:59
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"Greeks' minds weren't filled by religious dogma about how backstabbing each other is the only true way of life because it filters the strong, giving only the worthy ones the access to the 'power' they deserve."
I would have to disagree with that statement rather firmly.
Even the highly "lawful" Spartans would skulk and murder their own conquered people to prove their worth...as well as weed out the "weak" by leaving them exposed or outright slaying them.
The Athenians practiced such harsh internal politics that they often exiled or saw executed their brightest for the most insane reasons (to me insane at any rate...to them quite sound reasons I suppose).
If you look closely at ancient Greece, it is no different than a Drow City, where one House/City-State sought to dispose of or destroy those of higher rank than them to increase their own standing.
In fact, I remember reading (or hearing in conversation) that very same theory some 25 years or so ago when I was in highschool. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 05:13:59
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| The Drows ability to build nations other than scattered cities seems to be limited by the number, size, and locations of caverns capable of habitation. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 06:33:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Aye, it may not be a "good" basis; but it is a basis. Otherwise, Drow would not have survived this long as a highly advanced magical civilization with Arts, Crafts and such...but instead would be feral animals of the underdark.
Nay, encouraging a population to be full of backstabbers is not a basis for a society. The word "society" derives from the Latin socius, meaning "friend or companion". Rampant backstabbing, paranoid distrust, and ambitious ascendancy--and especially the celebration thereof--are the bases of an antisocial group--the complete and total opposite of society. It's anti-society.
As I mentioned before, I forget the exact book so I still can't cite it, but one of the lorebooks comes right out and says that if it weren't for divine intervention, the drow would have killed themselves all off a long time ago. Their behavior is not conducive to society. Their arts and crafts do not save them from themselves. Only Lolth does.
And now, it appears that she might wish to do even more than that. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 06:49:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The Greek City States could be seen in the same light...not until united by an external force were they capable of more than being simply a localized force in the annals of early civilization.
A loose patchwork of disparate city-states is not a civilization. To become civilized, they had to do more than just temporarily suppress their differences, and actually begin to become more alike and unite together in more ways than just battle.
The drow are only "civilized" to the extent that Lolth demands and determines such. Perhaps she will indeed soon strive to be that "external force" which you just spoke of, there.
quote:
To an outsider the Greeks were viewed as chaotic barbarians...today we see them as the founders of Western Civilization (even though that isn't true).
Revisionist tripe: It's romanticization of the past, artificially whitewashing our ancestors in order to create a contrived since of connectedness and unity between us and them.
Those ancient Greeks were not the founders of Western Civilization. The Greeks were like beta prototypes, or maybe alphas. They were predecessors--not founders. They were what came before civilization arose.
Drow culture has, to date, been antisocial and antithetical to civilization. But maybe we are about to be treated to an evolution in their culture, as well as their goddess. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 07:03:36
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Rampant backstabbing, paranoid distrust, and ambitious ascendancy--and especially the celebration thereof--are the bases of an antisocial group--the complete and total opposite of society. It's anti-society.
That sounds very much "late Imperial Rome" to me.
We can't view any civilization through a definition that is quite literally western in origin.
Civilization should perhaps be the word I use...and not society.
The Drow have a very advanced and complex civilization that compels it to exist as it does. The influence of Lolth, to me, as what forces the survival of their civilization is no different than the artificial means by which the United States recently survived the total break down of our own civilization.
By whatever means, the Drow ARE highly advanced as a civilization; and in many respects in the Realms...FAR more advanced than many human civilizations (or other races on the surface for that matter). |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 15 Apr 2012 07:04:36 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 10:06:08
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Again, my point is that a greek/thayan/whatever when seeing the need of putting aside their ambitions will be able to do it and team up against the threat/to conquer whatever they aim to, of course.
For the drow it is different, because most of them, when called to make this kind of choices, can't think outside of what Lolth ''taught'' them. It's not that they're stupid or something, it's that they're basically brainwashed in believing that such a behavior is totally natural and nothing good can come from a different one.
So if someone, even Lolth, asks them to stop betraying each other for a long time, they will have difficulties in doing so because betrayal is ''physiological'' to them. So, in war situations
quote:
They might try to do it subtly, softly, to only weaken their rivals instead of removing the important resource they represent from the drow arsenal. However such acts could cause backlash, crippling their nation-building campaign. Their enemies (which in the mass scale invasion presented in the preview would be A LOT) will try to use every single weakness/occasion they find, and those infighting could easily lead to one.
Drow sometimes can't even stop fighting for supremacy while facing immediate threats. I remember reading somewhere on DotU 3.5 that some of their cities have fallen to invaders because their houses were infighting about who was the leader of the defenders.
I can't expect people who do this to suddenly team up and create a nation while being exposed to attacks on countless sides. Their enemies would have too many things to exploit against them (not to mention they'd be attacked in their own homes in the Underdark by their underground enemies who would see in their split force a juicy opportunity to destroy them).
Again, the drow leading a successful long term war could be possible -sure- but, to me, not likely to happen.
I hope I was clear.
quote:
By whatever means, the Drow ARE highly advanced as a civilization; and in many respects in the Realms...FAR more advanced than many human civilizations (or other races on the surface for that matter).
How? As far as I know, the drow don't have superior technology/magic than most of surfaces civilizations. And their progresses in that sense are not led by the need to improve their lives, but just by the possible application of the innovations to increasing the 'power' of whoever created it. That is because (DotU 3.5) the drow don't acknowledge the intrinsic value of the individual -aside from his/her social status- so they don't feel the need to innovate in the sense that would improve their life conditions.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Apr 2012 10:08:06 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 16:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
By whatever means, the Drow ARE highly advanced as a civilization; and in many respects in the Realms...FAR more advanced than many human civilizations (or other races on the surface for that matter).
How? As far as I know, the drow don't have superior technology/magic than most of surfaces civilizations. And their progresses in that sense are not led by the need to improve their lives, but just by the possible application of the innovations to increasing the 'power' of whoever created it. That is because (DotU 3.5) the drow don't acknowledge the intrinsic value of the individual -aside from his/her social status- so they don't feel the need to innovate in the sense that would improve their life conditions.
Consider magic a "science" if you must. The Drow, as a civilization, have access to far more magic/technology than any surface nation I can think of aside from perhaps Thay or Halruaa. The "commoners" of Drow society are still most likely in possession of magical items such as cloak and boots, magical weapons, etc.
Drow architecture is primarily magical in origin (as far as Drow structures such as their House Strongholds go), and it would seem nearly all Drow receive a "college education" as well (using Menzo here as my example).
Drow civilization is highly magical...and thus you can say perhaps it is highly technological...making it far more advanced than nations such as Cormyr (The King's soldiers aren't equipped like House Soldiers that is for sure!).
This isn't to say a Drow City would be superior to Cormyr (far from it!); but when you take the "Average Citizen" into account, the Drow are much more highly magical. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 16:45:32
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In both the WotSQ and the war Menzoberranzan had with Mithril Hall, we see many examples of different factions/persons who absolutely hate each other all working together to further their own goals.
People do not have to like each other when they have much to gain by working together - history has proven that. Chaotic-Evil =/= Chaotic Stupid. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2012 16:46:00 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4706 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 17:12:20
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One thing to remember, Lolth is real and gives orders in dreams. She also is quick to punish any that displease her. Driders being only one example.
The blessings of Lolth are required to survive. If all Houses are told to combine under a war leader and a few refuse to, those houses will not survive. Might be an increase of Driders or some other fate that takes out the Matrons of those Houses.
It also should be note, the Cities are cities of laws. The individual quickest path to success however tends to be breaking the laws and not getting caught at it. There are slower ways, trick someone else to break law might remove two without taking a direct risk of being caught. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 18:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In both the WotSQ and the war Menzoberranzan had with Mithril Hall, we see many examples of different factions/persons who absolutely hate each other all working together to further their own goals.
People do not have to like each other when they have much to gain by working together - history has proven that. Chaotic-Evil =/= Chaotic Stupid.
I know, and I'm not saying that drow can't cooperate at all.
In fact that they might set aside their contrasts quite successfully for short periods of time, like Mithral Hall, or in response to a threat (and even in these cases, sometimes they weren't able to do so).
However building a nation at expense of other countries and running a massive campaign like the one proposed would require doing so for a very long time (at least, it looks so to me) which they IMO would find hard to accomplish because of the very mentality they bent to.
quote:
One thing to remember, Lolth is real and gives orders in dreams. She also is quick to punish any that displease her. Driders being only one example.
The blessings of Lolth are required to survive. If all Houses are told to combine under a war leader and a few refuse to, those houses will not survive. Might be an increase of Driders or some other fate that takes out the Matrons of those Houses.
It also should be note, the Cities are cities of laws. The individual quickest path to success however tends to be breaking the laws and not getting caught at it. There are slower ways, trick someone else to break law might remove two without taking a direct risk of being caught.
Of course, such open acts of disagreement aren't likely to happen. However subtle, little plots and betrayals will surely take place (once the drow have been taught since childhood that it is the only way to behave to live successfully, they will hardly give up on it. They would feel the ''need'' to behave so). At the beginning they won't have big consequences, with time they could cripple the drow's efforts. Sure, once the ''culprits'' are exposed, hard times are coming for them, but they will believe that their little treachery won't be noticed when starting to set in motion their schemes. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Apr 2012 18:10:45 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 20:40:08
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| I could see a powerful matron mother or a group of them using this thought of drow being too chaotic to form a society as a cover to launch a series of horrible wars to seize territories, slaves, and loot. Maybe a drow nation isn't a nation in the sense were used to, but merely a series of seized territories organized much the same way the houses are, into factions. Of course you can also make a nation like Undraeth, ruled by Queen Nathglaryst, who is a very powerful sorceress/priestess. Undraeth is cannon per 2E, so it could happen. ;) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 20:51:27
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I've changed my mind.
I said before if the Drow came conquering I'd puke (or whatever silliness I blathered on about)...but I've re-thought that.
I hope they do.
I hope they destroy anyone in their way...
...and then get crushed somehow and sent packing.
Perhaps then we won't have them to worry about for a long damnable time and some other threat can come to the fore...
I mean honestly, the Drow have been at my butt since I was a teen...over 20 years ago now. Vault of the Drow was great...Halls of the Fire Giant King was great...Drizzt was cool...whatever; it was a great run.
Can we move along now? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 21:15:59
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LOL - I feel your pain, Dalor D.
I started with GH myself, and those modules. The Temple of Elemental Evil still remains one of my favorite romps to run for new players.
Lolth was both an Elemental Evil and a Demon Queen back then. Somehow, although she is now so much more, she seems so much less. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 01:04:52
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| I'm on the fence, here. On one hand, yes, the idea of backstabbing your superiors or rivals to get what you want is ingrained in the drow (happened in the battle against mithril Hall). On the other hand, they have also proven that they CAN work together to overcome a common foe- WotSQ, and Dambrath, as two prime examples. The second even DID lead to a permanent nation. So obviously, they can do this, and have already done so, on occasion. And there is that eight-city union with the name I can't recall, that shows they cancertainly work together for the benefit of all, over a long period of time. So, I'm starting to think that if Lolth's Second Decree comes into play, then they will most certainly drop everything to comply, especially with Matron Mothers watching them for foolish mistakes and assassinations that would detract from the goal. Drow are fractious, yes, but not STUPID, nor suicidal. and when push comes to shove, they can be extremely vengeful! Perhaps they are finally seeking revenge for the Descent? Food for thought..... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 13:37:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The two races share the same cruelty and selfishness. If the Red Wizards managed to temporarily set aside their differences to unite for a common goal, I don't see why it can't happen to the drow.
A drow born in a lolthian city would see the acts of scheming, plotting and betraying as something physiologic (yeah, the word is a bit exaggerated. Still it gives my point) because through them only the 'strong ones' survive, making their house/city/race 'stronger'. This idea is burned in their mind since their childhood so, as I see it, most of them would have difficulties to overcome it for times long enough to win a wide war and craft/stabilize a nation.
I'll provide another comparison. The Dasati, a fierce, cruel, merciless, and backstabbing race, revealed in Raymond E. Feist's The Darkwar Saga, are like the drow in their mindset. Since birth, they're 'programmed' to act with violence, to outwit and outdo others. They're a chaotic bunch. Kill or be killed. Eat or be eaten. And they don't just inhabit a nation, but an entire world. They survive the hell that they themselves create, and at some point even grow as a race. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 14:10:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The two races share the same cruelty and selfishness. If the Red Wizards managed to temporarily set aside their differences to unite for a common goal, I don't see why it can't happen to the drow.
A drow born in a lolthian city would see the acts of scheming, plotting and betraying as something physiologic (yeah, the word is a bit exaggerated. Still it gives my point) because through them only the 'strong ones' survive, making their house/city/race 'stronger'. This idea is burned in their mind since their childhood so, as I see it, most of them would have difficulties to overcome it for times long enough to win a wide war and craft/stabilize a nation.
I'll provide another comparison. The Dasati, a fierce, cruel, merciless, and backstabbing race, revealed in Raymond E. Feist's The Darkwar Saga, are like the drow in their mindset. Since birth, they're 'programmed' to act with violence, to outwit and outdo others. They're a chaotic bunch. Kill or be killed. Eat or be eaten. And they don't just inhabit a nation, but an entire world. They survive the hell that they themselves create, and at some point even grow as a race.
I see. However, as you read in the part you quoted, I didn't write that the drow couldn't form a nation at all, I wrote they'd have difficulties in doing so. As I said in many previous posts, if they started their nation-building process, they'd meet heavy resistance, from more than an enemy, and the instability of their organization would play against them (beside the sheer force they'd have to face).
So it'd be possible, but not so likely to succeed. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 21:26:24
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They may succeed, but eventually their 'nation' would crumble---either because of constant internal conflict, or outside resistance. Or both. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 01:42:15
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| The servants of lolth have conquered WORLDS before. It's how the abysall lords grow their realms,and some of the portals in the demonweb pits lead to co.quered worlds! In the greyhawk world she was able to field an army of MILLIONS! |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 03:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
The servants of lolth have conquered WORLDS before. It's how the abysall lords grow their realms,and some of the portals in the demonweb pits lead to co.quered worlds! In the greyhawk world she was able to field an army of MILLIONS!
Where in Greyhawk was she able to field an army of millions?
I don't recall that at all. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Rise of the Underdark
