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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 18:10:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Erik Scott de Bie
I do think on the average the drow are FAR superior to the surface elves in terms of power. The typical drow warrior is worth 5-10 surface elf warriors, who themselves are better than standard human warriors. Largely what's kept the drow in check is their division--if Lolth wanted to/were able to unite the whole race, I could see something like this being a real threat.
In this we disagree. I think the only drow we've been exposed to are extraordinary individuals like Drizzt, prominent and powerful members of drow households, skirmish and raiding parties. In short, we've seen the RAS Hollywood glamour-fakery, champions and heroes (and villains), hardened house-trained military veterans who've all graduated from several human lifespans of the most elite training available. We have not seen the other 99% of the drow, the ones who aren't remarkable at all, the ones who suck in combat.
Well, I suppose it depends who writes it. Looking at the War of the Spider Queen series, I really got the impression the drow were powerful and scary. Ryld and Pharaun weren't superheroes among the drow--just competent adventurers--and they were still up to going to the Abyss (at least in theory, ahem). And yes, there are drow peons, but I think those are still capable of dispatching your average surface warrior.
And yes, I think the drow powerbase is in the Underdark, but if Lolth really can weave Underdark-style darkness in the surface world (as noted, she's done so before), then that brings the drow advantage to the surface world. And yes, the drow are defined by infighting, but I think Lolth could unite them--at least until it all fars apart.
And I imagine the drow have been steadily eroding the surface powers--infiltration, sabotage, charming monster warchiefs, etc. They aren't necessarily going to march as huge armies, either--small warbands that destroy villages/towns, then retreat to defensible positions, etc.
We'll just have to see how it unfolds--it seems possible to me, and I'd like to see where WotC takes it.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 18:17:19
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I didn't want to bring real world, currently ongoing conflicts into it, but that's a good example of how small groups of elite tactical units do not win a war, as even with his death the war has continued. Of course, neither the war against terror nor the war against drugs apply to the type of conflict the drow are looking to wage. They can't possibly envision a conflict where they invade and occupy the surface for decades, facing constant fighting and a continuous stream of new opponents, they don't have the society or numbers to manage that. Neither can they be willing to take on the role of insurgent, as the surface is a land of unfriendly citizens and without the support of the local population and intimate knowledge of the terrain an insurgency is somewhere between impractical and impossible.
Special Forces do have many uses, there are a variety of things they excel at, but on the operational scale their impact in the course of a full out war is not world shattering. Looking at large scale historical conflicts(I have more knowledge/study of WWII and prior, but if you want to point me towards more recent conflicts I have some knowledge of the Israeli-Arab wars, India's conflict with Pakistan, and Korea/Vietnam) small tactical units were useful in places, but wars are won or lost with the maneuver of divisions, corps, or armies, not the actions of squads or platoons. Can they support larger efforts? Absolutely, but regardless of how good their support is, if the larger operation is flawed or mishandled it doesn't matter how many successful operations a small unit undertakes.
Napoleon's victories are the classic example of how important the maneuver of large forces is, but even in World War II victories were won and lost by the handling of large forces, largely independent of how small, elite unit actions played out. It wasn't the action of special forces that resulted in the quick German victory over France, or that forced a breakout in Operation Cobra. As exceptional as they were the SAS and Long Range Desert Group didn't win the war, after the North African and Italian campaigns they had a number of less than successful operations, some very fine successes that did support larger actions(which had results that appear mostly independent of the success/failure of the SAS teams), and as far as I can find out the Long Range Desert Group spent most of their time in Greece and the Balkans, rather than impacting the liberation of France or invasion of Germany.
I have no doubt that the drow would make very fine raiders and commandos, that's pretty much exactly what they have been doing to the surface forever and they are trained for stealthy, small unit missions with surprise on their side. But that's how you fight as an insurgency, small strikes and ambushes on your ground, not how you win an invasion. Considering the fact that the drow lack any of the popular support that an insurgency needs to survive, let alone the will to commit to a decades long struggle on the surface while there are threats closer to home, I have a lot of trouble seeing a large scale drow insurgency in the Heartlands. If they want to invade the surface, no matter how successful they are at subverting human adventurers(and I apparently have a higher opinion than you on the intelligence of the surface world, and trust the average adventurer(and anyone I've ever DM'd for) to not blindly follow the word of a stranger to assassinate important leaders in Cormyr or the Dales), they will eventually need to maneuver large forces to defeat the armies of their enemies. If the event weren't described as drow marching under a darkened surface world, but rather drow increasing their surface raids from a city close to the surface, then I would readily agree with you that a determined drow raiding effort would be frustrating and damaging. Even then, such an effort in my opinion would not be nearly as damaging as, say, a Dale resistance could be to an outside invader, since drow lack the essential popular support and knowledge of the terrain that would make them successful. I have no doubt, for example, that the drow would be just fine in the first stage of the plotline, where the seek to gather magic items. That's exactly the sort of thing drow excel at, small unit raiding with surprise that overwhelms the small, unprepared force facing them almost before they know the fighting is started. It's holding those magical locations against a counter-offensive and, especially, the part about the drow moving freely under darkness over leagues and leagues of the surface to bring the world to ruing that would show the drow to be hopelessly out of their league, as they have too many disadvantages to overcome to mount a successful large scale invasion against a trained, professional army. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 19:23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, I suppose it depends who writes it. Looking at the War of the Spider Queen series, I really got the impression the drow were powerful and scary. Ryld and Pharaun weren't superheroes among the drow--just competent adventurers--and they were still up to going to the Abyss (at least in theory, ahem). And yes, there are drow peons, but I think those are still capable of dispatching your average surface warrior.
I agree. Of course this doesn't mean that every drow can defeat every surface warrior. But as Erik said the avarage drow defeats the average surface worrior.
If you are weak as a drow you die. This doesn't only count for noble drow but for all social stratums.
Also I really doubt that only 1% of the drow have a military background with a proper training. In my opinion the majority (not all) have some military training in some form or another . Because thats what counts and for most lesser works they have slaves. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 20:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
I didn't want to bring real world, currently ongoing conflicts into it, but that's a good example of how small groups of elite tactical units do not win a war, as even with his death the war has continued. Of course, neither the war against terror nor the war against drugs apply to the type of conflict the drow are looking to wage. They can't possibly envision a conflict where they invade and occupy the surface for decades, facing constant fighting and a continuous stream of new opponents, they don't have the society or numbers to manage that. Neither can they be willing to take on the role of insurgent, as the surface is a land of unfriendly citizens and without the support of the local population and intimate knowledge of the terrain an insurgency is somewhere between impractical and impossible.
Special Forces do have many uses, there are a variety of things they excel at, but on the operational scale their impact in the course of a full out war is not world shattering. Looking at large scale historical conflicts(I have more knowledge/study of WWII and prior, but if you want to point me towards more recent conflicts I have some knowledge of the Israeli-Arab wars, India's conflict with Pakistan, and Korea/Vietnam) small tactical units were useful in places, but wars are won or lost with the maneuver of divisions, corps, or armies, not the actions of squads or platoons. Can they support larger efforts? Absolutely, but regardless of how good their support is, if the larger operation is flawed or mishandled it doesn't matter how many successful operations a small unit undertakes.
Napoleon's victories are the classic example of how important the maneuver of large forces is, but even in World War II victories were won and lost by the handling of large forces, largely independent of how small, elite unit actions played out. It wasn't the action of special forces that resulted in the quick German victory over France, or that forced a breakout in Operation Cobra. As exceptional as they were the SAS and Long Range Desert Group didn't win the war, after the North African and Italian campaigns they had a number of less than successful operations, some very fine successes that did support larger actions(which had results that appear mostly independent of the success/failure of the SAS teams), and as far as I can find out the Long Range Desert Group spent most of their time in Greece and the Balkans, rather than impacting the liberation of France or invasion of Germany.
I have no doubt that the drow would make very fine raiders and commandos, that's pretty much exactly what they have been doing to the surface forever and they are trained for stealthy, small unit missions with surprise on their side. But that's how you fight as an insurgency, small strikes and ambushes on your ground, not how you win an invasion. Considering the fact that the drow lack any of the popular support that an insurgency needs to survive, let alone the will to commit to a decades long struggle on the surface while there are threats closer to home, I have a lot of trouble seeing a large scale drow insurgency in the Heartlands. If they want to invade the surface, no matter how successful they are at subverting human adventurers(and I apparently have a higher opinion than you on the intelligence of the surface world, and trust the average adventurer(and anyone I've ever DM'd for) to not blindly follow the word of a stranger to assassinate important leaders in Cormyr or the Dales), they will eventually need to maneuver large forces to defeat the armies of their enemies. If the event weren't described as drow marching under a darkened surface world, but rather drow increasing their surface raids from a city close to the surface, then I would readily agree with you that a determined drow raiding effort would be frustrating and damaging. Even then, such an effort in my opinion would not be nearly as damaging as, say, a Dale resistance could be to an outside invader, since drow lack the essential popular support and knowledge of the terrain that would make them successful. I have no doubt, for example, that the drow would be just fine in the first stage of the plotline, where the seek to gather magic items. That's exactly the sort of thing drow excel at, small unit raiding with surprise that overwhelms the small, unprepared force facing them almost before they know the fighting is started. It's holding those magical locations against a counter-offensive and, especially, the part about the drow moving freely under darkness over leagues and leagues of the surface to bring the world to ruing that would show the drow to be hopelessly out of their league, as they have too many disadvantages to overcome to mount a successful large scale invasion against a trained, professional army.
You're right in the aspect that the drow probably won't field an army of thousands. They're not going to go head to head with the army of Cormyr or some other nation. They are going to have thousands of monsters in humanoid tribes, slaves and other things they've stirred up over the last century do that for them. There will probably be overseers accompanying them, but the actual drow forces are probably torching Suzail while the royal army is out engaged out by Arabel. Of course, this all based on if were talking armies fighting, WotC still hasn't said exactly how they are going to do it. Though I'm guessing powerful magic and monstrous allies.
However they are going to do it, they won't play the game by humanities' rules. If they are coming up to the surface they've no doubt figured out a way to at least assure them a chance at success. Cloaking the lands in darkness is most likely the big determining factor here. No daylight = slaughter of most surface-blind forces. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 22:37:33
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, I suppose it depends who writes it. Looking at the War of the Spider Queen series, I really got the impression the drow were powerful and scary. Ryld and Pharaun weren't superheroes among the drow--just competent adventurers--and they were still up to going to the Abyss (at least in theory, ahem). And yes, there are drow peons, but I think those are still capable of dispatching your average surface warrior.
I agree. Of course this doesn't mean that every drow can defeat every surface warrior. But as Erik said the avarage drow defeats the average surface worrior.
If you are weak as a drow you die. This doesn't only count for noble drow but for all social stratums.
That's pretty much what I was saying. I might have exaggerated the "1 drow is worth 10 elves" thing--it's probably more like a band of 20 drow could take out 100 elves they can ambush/confuse, but the drow would succumb to sheer numbers past that point. The drow have no equivalent of the country militia/conscripted bumpkin with a pitchfork--they've pruned those weaklings from their society.
This reminds me of the time I played a drow who was blind in one eye--she kept her weakness a strict secret, of course, going so far as to kill anyone who found out and could eventually use it against her.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
You're right in the aspect that the drow probably won't field an army of thousands. They're not going to go head to head with the army of Cormyr or some other nation. They are going to have thousands of monsters in humanoid tribes, slaves and other things they've stirred up over the last century do that for them. There will probably be overseers accompanying them, but the actual drow forces are probably torching Suzail while the royal army is out engaged out by Arabel. Of course, this all based on if were talking armies fighting, WotC still hasn't said exactly how they are going to do it. Though I'm guessing powerful magic and monstrous allies.
I don't expect the drow to field armies in the way most surface races do. No raving horde--that's what their slaves and manipulated grunts are for. Also, if they plunge parts of the surface world into darkness, that's a big advantage right there. Magic can no doubt fight it, but contrary to popular belief, not everyone in the Realms is a wizard. Pretty much all drow (with exceptions, of course) can produce darkness naturally, however--that's huge.
quote:
However they are going to do it, they won't play the game by humanities' rules. If they are coming up to the surface they've no doubt figured out a way to at least assure them a chance at success. Cloaking the lands in darkness is most likely the big determining factor here. No daylight = slaughter of most surface-blind forces.
According to the flavor, Lolth has been preparing for this for a long, LONG time, awaiting her opportunity. I'm sure she's thought of the weaknesses that has to be overcome and planned accordingly, just like the sunlight thing. The "weaknesses" of the drow might even be exaggerated to sow disinformation and confusion among their enemies, in the way that vampires spread rumors about their supposed weaknesses, so that people don't really know how to fight them.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:25:17
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Lets look at the true goal and ability of the Drow on this one (I mean Lolth in all honesty):
The Drow only need to help Lolth gain the Weave. Once she has done this, the magic of the world will be in the hands of the Drow alone!
Special Forces actions combined with manipulated pawns nets this unless groups of heroes can stop Lolth.
No army is going to be able to stop it...that is the whole premise I'm sure.
The Drow would be the ONLY ones allowed to use magic if Lolth gains the power of Magic as hers alone.
Gnaw on that bone a while.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:35:53
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| I would guess once the Demon Weave grows large enough, she'd tear Faerun off and suck it into the Demonweb Pits. It's a little hazy, but I think that's how some Greyhawk adventures were going down as. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:36:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Lets look at the true goal and ability of the Drow on this one (I mean Lolth in all honesty):
The Drow only need to help Lolth gain the Weave. Once she has done this, the magic of the world will be in the hands of the Drow alone!
I get where you're coming from with this. But I'm pretty sure it wouldn't play out that way.
Remember when Mystra tried to block magic for certain types? Her chain got yanked back so hard that she'll never forget that lesson.
What I think we've seen is that when any deity takes on a new portfolio (particularly an important one), there are a host of restrictions and requirements that go along with the overt power. Mystra in her brief period of Chaotic Goodness could not ultimately refuse magic to evil mortals or evil gods.
So along with portfolios, there are rules and regulations.
Edit: an interesting way they -could- take this is to have Lolth actually get the portfolio, then because of base incompatibilities and requirements she would have to broaden her sphere/worshipper set. It might make her split into Lolth and Araushnee. It might overwhelm the Lolth personality and you'd end up with a "Lolthstra" blended being. Or Lolth might be utterly changed on a number of unforeseen levels.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 25 Apr 2012 23:40:51 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:37:01
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quote:
The Drow only need to help Lolth gain the Weave. Once she has done this, the magic of the world will be in the hands of the Drow alone!
Well, I guess other deities won't just stand and stare at Lolth while she gets all the magic for herself. Even deities which are not the Seldarine or Shar would see the risk of letting Lolth doing this, even evil ones.
She should meet massive resistance from them and should not be able to manage what she planned, unless WotC has them behaving blindly and not doing anything about it or just organizing weak reactions, then panicking when it's too late to actually accomplish anything.
EDIT: Oh, and what Therise wrote, of course. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Apr 2012 23:38:16 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8101 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:40:02
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| Lolth possesses divine power. I expect other divine powers, and all their annoying Chosen lapdogs, will gather forces to oppose Lolth. WotC might like the PoL model, but a completely drow-subjugated campaign setting covered in evil and darkness is just not going to ever happen. The drow will only be another evil force given a plot of land somewhere on the map and held in reserve on the backburner so that their sporadic doomsday plots can give purpose to heroes slogging through the next trilogy. Same thing as Szass Tam, argue all you want but the canon setting will simply never let him triumph. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Apr 2012 23:43:52 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
The Drow only need to help Lolth gain the Weave. Once she has done this, the magic of the world will be in the hands of the Drow alone!
Well, I guess other deities won't just stand and stare at Lolth while she gets all the magic for herself. Even deities which are not the Seldarine or Shar would see the risk of letting Lolth doing this, even evil ones.
She should meet massive resistance from them and should not be able to manage what she planned, unless WotC has them behaving blindly and not doing anything about it or just organizing weak reactions, then panicking when it's too late to actually accomplish anything.
EDIT: Oh, and what Therise wrote, of course.
Let's just hope the RSE doesn't involve a godswar with the various forces of good/evil lining up and then proceeding to level cities and mountains. Hopefully, we'll just see them wage war by proxy using their followers. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:42:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
The Drow only need to help Lolth gain the Weave. Once she has done this, the magic of the world will be in the hands of the Drow alone!
Well, I guess other deities won't just stand and stare at Lolth while she gets all the magic for herself. Even deities which are not the Seldarine or Shar would see the risk of letting Lolth doing this, even evil ones.
She should meet massive resistance from them and should not be able to manage what she planned, unless WotC has them behaving blindly and not doing anything about it or just organizing weak reactions, then panicking when it's too late to actually accomplish anything.
EDIT: Oh, and what Therise wrote, of course.
Let's just hope the RSE doesn't involve a godswar with the various forces of good/evil lining up and then proceeding to level cities and mountains. Hopefully, we'll just see them wage war by proxy using their followers.
Deities works mostly through proxies and followers afaik, so the latter option is likely to happen. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Lolth possesses divine power. I expect other divine powers, and all their annoying CHosen agents, would oppose Lolth. WotC might like the PoL model, but a drow-subjugated campaign setting is just not going to happen. Just another evil force given a plot of land of the map and held in reserve so sporadic doomstay plots can give heroes purpose while they slog through the next trilogy. Same thing as Szass Tam, argue all you want but the canon setting can never let him triumph.
I was thinking when all is said and done we might end up with the drow holding a few areas, like say the Twisted Tower again. Can't think of where they would put a new nation of them. The Wood of Sharp Teeth maybe? Cormanthor is huge, so I'd place a bet on them holding some land in there perhaps. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:44:05
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Unless Lolth covers her tracks pretty well. Which is not unlikely. Not that I would want her to succeed. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 23:50:09
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| Deities are not stupid. When it comes to a so highly contended prize like the position of god(dess) of magic, they'd surely have their agents watching everything related to it most of the time (or at least, it's my guess). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Apr 2012 23:57:33 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 00:02:00
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Bone is gnawed on now...
I'm not saying it WOULD happen, I'm only saying that may be the goal.
Even Gods themselves might not be able to contend against their world being destroyed and pulled into the Abyss...it HAS happened before...
I'm not saying it will happen at all folks...lords, I can barely stomach the idea of the drow on the surface in such great numbers.
What I'm getting at is that for a godling such as Lolth (who contrary to what is perceived, is actually not that powerful compared to even the likes of Chauntea!) to even consider this move, she must have some overwhelming plan on what to do with all that magical power! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 00:48:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Deities are not stupid. When it comes to a so highly contended prize like the position of god(dess) of magic, they'd surely have their agents watching everything related to it most of the time (or at least, it's my guess).
No, they're definitely not. But they are not all-knowing either. Otherwise, they would have stopped Cyric and Shar from killing Mystra. Lolth might be able to cover her tracks as Cyric and Shar did.
Though if I were Mystra, having died a couple of times, I would have made more contingencies to counter any murderous attempts by ambitious gods like Lolth. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 00:57:09
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| For gods (ahem) sake, just bring back Mystra and let us get on with things. The whole 'who will be the next god of magic' plot has worn very thin. I'd much rather Lolth try to reclaim dark elf homelands on the surface that were lost long ago than some botched, doomed to failure attempt to control magic. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 02:22:58
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The drow are the world's most gifted/powerful magic-users? I personally don't believe that.
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Kiransalee is not the only deity who's able to conquer an entire world. Shar, too---Ephyras. Rivalen Tanthul and Erevis Cale saw it happen. Most likely other deities as well; their success simply did not reach the mortal ears; thus they remain unknown.
Heck, even a non-deity (Vhostym) was able to destroy worlds. Yes, it's not just one, but many. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 26 Apr 2012 02:27:25 |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 07:24:52
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| In the novel queen of spiders set in the greyhawk world,lolth brought forth her army through portals. Her armies numbered millions (drow,demons,spiders,stirred,and undead) |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 09:08:06
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quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
In the novel queen of spiders set in the greyhawk world,lolth brought forth her army through portals. Her armies numbered millions (drow,demons,spiders,stirred,and undead)
Ahhhh...I honestly haven't read that one...I feel ashamed. LOL
That does bring something to the fore then: portal invasion.
However, this might very well be countered heavily by the other gods sending in their own "heavenly armies".
We have a history of this already with the god Tyr entering Faerun.
That is a very valid point Jerrod!
If at the right moment her Abyssal Realm were prepared to unleash its hordes and the other Gods were not ready to counter immediately, Lolth might gain such a powerful foothold that she was able to have her way in Faerun. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 13:30:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Ryld and Pharaun weren't superheroes among the drow--just competent adventurers--and they were still up to going to the Abyss (at least in theory, ahem).
To be fair weren't Ryld and Pharaun instructors in the academy, with Pharaun powerful enough to warrant Gromphs attention?
quote:
And I imagine the drow have been steadily eroding the surface powers--infiltration, sabotage, charming monster warchiefs, etc. They aren't necessarily going to march as huge armies, either--small warbands that destroy villages/towns, then retreat to defensible positions, etc.
Agreed. Bregan D'aerthe alone has shown this in Calimport and again in Luskan.
I think there was another scheme in The seven sisters too.
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Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 14:04:23
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quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
To be fair weren't Ryld and Pharaun instructors in the academy, with Pharaun powerful enough to warrant Gromphs attention?
Yes they were instructors and Gromph didn't like Pharaun because of his attitude but couldn't directly kill him. Not because he was to powerfull but for political reasons so he sent him with the group to go to Ched Nessad.
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
Agreed. Bregan D'aerthe alone has shown this in Calimport and again in Luskan.
I think there was another scheme in The seven sisters too.
There were also the 3 (?) drow which started the war in the north by using Obould, Gerti Orelsdottr and this troll chief as their pawns and manipulating them to their will.
At the end they all died but they caused great havoc in the north and if I remember correctly all where just some minor drow not some master manipulators or leaders. |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 15:12:12
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quote:
Not because he was to powerfull but for political reasons so he sent him with the group to go to Ched Nessad.
It's been a while since I've read the series, but something always gave me the feeling that Gromph considered Pharaun a threat, and if anyone aspired to be the next archmage Gromph felt he would have been the one.
quote:
There were also the 3 (?) drow which started the war in the north by using Obould, Gerti Orelsdottr and this troll chief as their pawns and manipulating them to their will.
At the end they all died but they caused great havoc in the north and if I remember correctly all where just some minor drow not some master manipulators or leaders.
Good call. They also modified Damara a bit by uniting Palischuck under the rest of Damara.
Among the four drow that caused the turmoil in the north you had an exile from Ched Nessad who was a priestess which likely means she was a noble at some point and another rogue drow like drizzt who even schooled with him.
Even if they're not master manipulators or leaders, in no way were they just ordinary drow citizens. They were highly trained in their respective arts. |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
Edited by - phranctoast on 26 Apr 2012 15:22:45 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 16:19:48
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Yes with minor I ment not leaders or something like that, not that they were commoners  |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:16:50
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| Sorry Erik, but Ryld and Pharaun were masters in their fields. Although I agree with you that one average drow warrior is much better than one average warrior from most other races. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:33:55
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You know what I am really afraid of? The Rise of the Underwear.
It seems the older I get, the higher my wasteline gets. My belt is now just below my man-boobs!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 20:08:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know what I am really afraid of? The Rise of the Underwear.
It seems the older I get, the higher my wasteline gets. My belt is now just below my man-boobs!
You know what I'm really afraid of? That you actually shared that with me!  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 22:53:54
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| I agree with darlor....T.M.I! |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 21:55:50
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| Why didn't anyone mention portals earlier? Was I the only one who thought of that? I didn't mention it in my earlier post, but then, I pretty much ASSUMED that portals would be used on a large scale, and I figured everyone esle would go by that assumption as well. Using portals and permanent surface outposts like Twisted Tower would make a drow incursion MUCH more likely to succeed. Add in the fact that their cities are beneath some of the most populous places in Faerun (Menzo is not too far from Silverymoon, there are drow settlements under the Dales/Cormyr/Cormanthor region, etc) and the invasion might happen so suddenly that no one would be able to counter it quickly enough to put up a decent resistance. Especially if the battles take place at night, and the drow retreat back during the day. Using lightning guerilla tactics, they could easily wear down the opposition to such a degree that the end-game would be a walk in the park for them. Just a thought..... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Rise of the Underdark
