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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 16:45:11
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Good read - I wish everyone felt as strongly as you.
"Messa gonna have an aneurism."  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 17:03:37
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I admit it's not a popular topic for a game designer to write about. That being said, I thought it was important to put up. Really what I'm saying is that more work should be put into setting-specific content, if that content is going to butt-up against something important. There are examples, for instance, of wonderful Star Wars and Forgotten Realms novels that are amazing stories. They also do not discredit, rewrite, or mess with the continuity of the world. For instance, I could write an entire novel set in Waterdeep, and not have the content mess with anything that is established. Without the high-altitude view, it's just a port city with a lot of people and intrigue. The same goes for the galaxy in Star Wars.
For the content that -does- butt up against continuity, that's where the continuity editor's job comes in. Then, the editor's job is to manage fewer people's content, where they are enabled/trusted to design in this space (does that make sense?).
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Edited by - Matt James on 04 Apr 2012 17:05:29 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 17:14:43
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makes perfect sense to me.
actually having stories that are set as you describe above would actually bring the Realms more alive, adding NPCs for DM's to use.
And not every story has to be about heroes doing big stuff. As in real life, heroes that do the small stuff are much more important (IMHO) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 17:28:14
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I agree most heartily with what you wrote.
My biggest complaints about FR material have most often concerned continuity issues, and the sometimes casual (dis)regard that some authors/designers have displayed for continuity.
I have long felt that a strong continuity was one of the setting's greatest assets, and the sometimes cavalier treatment of that continuity has done considerable damage to the setting. It's reassuring to see a designer who understands this. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 18:06:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I admit it's not a popular topic for a game designer to write about.
-I think it's sad that it's gotten to the point (apparently) that, in the vernacular, not f@#$ing things up is a taboo that people don't like talking about/dealing with (apparently).
-But, anyway, I don't really think that the 'LifeStar' example was very good because, although that is enacting change, it's explained and such. It's not necessarily causing continuity issues as much as it would be changing things, and causing people to get their panties in a twist because of the change. If, like in the Star Wars cartoons, things just randomly were different from established precedent for no explained reason, that is an issue. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 18:19:46
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Matt - you also touch upon (with your last post) a big 'sore point' that has been around since the beginning - an "elephant in the room" that gets brought up occasionally, but then gets swept under the rug again.
Toys. Everyone loves 'em - what gamer isn't a kid at heart?
When Ed sent off his rough draft/notes to Jeff Grubb, they gave us the most excellent toys - TONS OF THEM. This was the true beauty of the OGB. Here were hundreds of locales, NPCs, artifacts, plotlines, etc, etc... for DMs to use in any way they want. It was a smorgasbord of awesome!
Then the authors got a hold of 'our' toys (after all, we paid for them - shouldn't they have been ours?) Gauntlgrym, the Tree of Life, those regions that were supposed to be 'DM-only' (like Sembia and Erlkazar), etc... In fact, it almost seemed like if they put a "for DM use only" tag on something, RAS (and others) couldn't use it up fast enough. Maybe they should have put a warning on the OGB, telling us that stuff wasn't ours - we were only renting it for a short time.
Isn't it the purpose of an author/designer to create? If you use someone else's ideas (plots, NPCs, artifacts, etc), doesn't that infer that you are NOT as creative as they are? I'm not talking about 'borrow' - like a cameo of Elminster in some novel - I'm talking about using-up those plot hooks we were given. It TSR/WotC/Hasbro intends on tying-off every loose end, then the setting becomes a LOT less useful as an RPG setting.
To that end - as you mentioned - stories about 'smaller subjects', that do NOT need the "Sword of a Thousand Truths", or pulling Selune out of her orbit, or turning Thay into some place out of another setting, or re-arranging the planer structure of the universe itself, should be the normal way to proceed. Let the designers design, and the authors create - that way, we gamers get to keep the toys we paid for. Seeing them used in novels is like buying a toy from a toy store, and then paying (again) to watch some other kids play with it. No kid wants that. Or worse, watching some big bully stomp all over it and tell us "its better this way" (all broken and crappy).
You can tell a 'small story' and still make it good, and make it feel like the Realms, without changing the world (or shattering/shaking it). Most of the ones in the anthologies, and anything by Erik de Bie or Mark Sehestedt (and he's touched upon some 'biggies', like Raumathar) should be set as an example of what can be done without stomping all over the continuity.
In other words, if you want to write about an 'ancient dwarven stronghold', but the one you want to use is a thousand miles away, don't use it anyway and crap all over the setting - just create a different, similar one with a completely different name... is that really so hard? Tie-ins to the setting lore are great, and helps to immerse the reader, but when they contradict canon, all they do is hinder the immersion factor, and help to further deteriorate the IP.
In fact, I think that's a complete lack of respect, not only to the readers/fans, but also to the fellow designer/authors, who now have to back-peddle and make excuses for why things contradict. How egotistical do you have to be to "do things your way', even when you know its going to cause dozens of people (you are supposedly friends with) headaches? There is a word for folks like that - SELFISH. I simple name change could have saved everyone a lot of grief.
And although many of you can tell I am targeting one, specific bit or lore, this applies to a LOT of whats been happening over the years, and not just by any one author or character. Its infuriating, and a complete lack of respect for everyone else. If someone else wrote some canon, and you want to use it but change it completely, then DON'T USE IT - its pointless to do so. Either work within its confines, or move on to something else.
I am not talking about accidental mistakes (as RB did with the Tree of Life - the chief editor should have caught that) - those are forgivable. I am talking about when folks just don't give a damn (4eFR being the ultimate example of THAT). Consistency should be PARAMOUNT in a shared-world, and I applaud Matt for writing this article. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Apr 2012 18:22:22 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 18:29:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Toys. Everyone loves 'em - what gamer isn't a kid at heart?
When Ed sent off his rough draft/notes to Jeff Grubb, they gave us the most excellent toys - TONS OF THEM. This was the true beauty of the OGB. Here were hundreds of locales, NPCs, artifacts, plotlines, etc, etc... for DMs to use in any way they want. It was a smorgasbord of awesome!
Then the authors got a hold of 'our' toys (after all, we paid for them - shouldn't they have been ours?) Gauntlgrym, the Tree of Life, those regions that were supposed to be 'DM-only' (like Sembia and Erlkazar), etc... In fact, it almost seemed like if they put a "for DM use only" tag on something, RAS (and others) couldn't use it up fast enough.
-At the same time though (and I partially agree) how many times have we seen another Cormyr-set book, or Waterdeep-set book, and the resulting call by people to have books set in places that have little detail/information about it/etc.? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 18:36:00
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Good read, Matt; I hope you don't mind that I shared it with my circles on Google+, man. Kudos to you from this former Continuity Cop for the Realms.
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 19:21:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Good read, Matt; I hope you don't mind that I shared it with my circles on Google+, man. Kudos to you from this former Continuity Cop for the Realms.
Steven
Please do, and spread the word! I'm glad you enjoyed it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 19:40:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Isn't it the purpose of an author/designer to create? If you use someone else's ideas (plots, NPCs, artifacts, etc), doesn't that infer that you are NOT as creative as they are? I'm not talking about 'borrow' - like a cameo of Elminster in some novel - I'm talking about using-up those plot hooks we were given. It TSR/WotC/Hasbro intends on tying-off every loose end, then the setting becomes a LOT less useful as an RPG setting.
While I agree with most of what Markus said, I'm going to disagree with this part. There are a lot of reasons why someone would use another author's work, including just being excited by it or seeing unexplored potential. I, for one, would never say that Elaine wasn't creative for using Elaith Craulnober, or that she wasn't as creative as anyone else for making this practically undescribed character one of the most intriguing NPCs in the Realms.
I think that working within an established framework can sometimes be more creative than making up something from scratch, because the existing parameters can sometimes force creative workarounds that wouldn't have been necessary if starting from scratching.
There are different types of creativity, as well. My personal strength is in taking existing ideas and combining them into something new, or taking an existing idea and making it something else entirely by simply rotating it 90 degrees. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 19:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Isn't it the purpose of an author/designer to create? If you use someone else's ideas (plots, NPCs, artifacts, etc), doesn't that infer that you are NOT as creative as they are?
Since this was Ed's setting from the start, does this mean we are all of us uncreative? 
I see your point that creatives should be creating, but I don't think that means they should only be making things from scratch.
However I don't think the simple act of building on or utilizing something already established "uses up" whatever it is that's being written about.
I can empathise with you in that when I look at the Realms as it is now, a lot of what was secret, burried and half-forgotten has come back (Myth Drannor, I'm looking at you here, but also Imaskar and Netheril). That, at least at the start, makes the Realms less mysterious to me.
On the other hand, the Realms must change. It must grow and time must pass.
To me the best way to grow the Realms without entirely overwriting and outdating older source material is by keeping stories small.
Alsoand this is important to me toosome parts of the Realms must pass into obscurity with the passing of time. The Realms is (or was) all about layering new over old.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 04 Apr 2012 21:41:45 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 20:13:38
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I have to agree, this piece is excellent - both in the message it conveys and the writing.
As for creation - well, normally I'd say using what someone else created is not 'creation' per se, but in the case of a shared world... I really don't know. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 02:18:30
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A brilliant analysis of both continuity in general, Matt, and, specifically, of the saga of the "New Jedi Order."
It serves as a subtle reminder of just how important a role "Continuity Cops" have for a decades-old shared world. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 02:28:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Isn't it the purpose of an author/designer to create? If you use someone else's ideas (plots, NPCs, artifacts, etc), doesn't that infer that you are NOT as creative as they are? I'm not talking about 'borrow' - like a cameo of Elminster in some novel - I'm talking about using-up those plot hooks we were given. It TSR/WotC/Hasbro intends on tying-off every loose end, then the setting becomes a LOT less useful as an RPG setting.
I'm not sure I can agree with this, simply because, without the other creative sparks we've seen playing in Ed's grand sandbox, it's doubtful that the high-mark of Realmslore in 2e would have existed.
Ideally, authors/designers working with pre-existing ideas/concepts/characters can be just as creative as the originators of those ideas/concepts/characters. Generally, most ideas/concepts/characters come into form either in their infancy as characters [historically], or not properly developed in terms of the evolution of the setting-world around them. As the world evolves, the characters must evolve with it, and sometimes the original creators of a character or idea has moved on, leaving the character or idea languishing in obscurity. Which is when another author or designer usually comes along and interprets the potential for expanding on the character's own mythos, and how he or she now fits in the world.
That, for me at least, can be just as creative as coming up with a new character or concept, because you're developing further, drawing from your own creative well of experience, an original concept to relate to the world and it's existing cast of characters. These are new relationships and new histories for these characters, and take these characters into directions that might not otherwise have been foreseen by their original creators.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 11:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
A brilliant analysis of both continuity in general, Matt, and, specifically, of the saga of the "New Jedi Order."
It serves as a subtle reminder of just how important a role "Continuity Cops" have for a decades-old shared world.
Thank you, Sage. I knew that more readers could identify with a Star Wars analogy, and it seemed to fit quite well.
Continuity does not have to equate to a stagnate fiction-space (I just made that word up). It just needs to have a set of standards that remain true. You can mix it up as much as you want, but some of the major sticking points that made the setting flourish have to stick around. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 13:33:47
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Hear, hear, Matt!
Or, as we say down here in Texas, "Dang straight!"
May we all volunteer to be little continuity reserve deputy sheriffs in this county called the Realms.
Mesa gonna have to defend Bob below, but I'll admit that even I found it ironic that a book cover bearing his name would feature at the beginning of an article about continuity. There were so many different directions you coulda gone there, Matt...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When Ed sent off his rough draft/notes to Jeff Grubb, they gave us the most excellent toys - TONS OF THEM. This was the true beauty of the OGB. Here were hundreds of locales, NPCs, artifacts, plotlines, etc, etc... for DMs to use in any way they want. It was a smorgasbord of awesome!
Then the authors got a hold of 'our' toys (after all, we paid for them - shouldn't they have been ours?) Gauntlgrym, the Tree of Life, those regions that were supposed to be 'DM-only' (like Sembia and Erlkazar), etc... In fact, it almost seemed like if they put a "for DM use only" tag on something, RAS (and others) couldn't use it up fast enough. Maybe they should have put a warning on the OGB, telling us that stuff wasn't ours - we were only renting it for a short time.
The catch there is that the authors were invited to play with those toys right along with all the gamers. In fact, the OGB actually came out in summer, 1987--after the first Realms novel, Darkwalker on Moonshae--and then Bob went on to write The Crystal Shard that fall. There was never any sort of gamer monopoly on Ed's notes, or the OGB. All were invited to play in the exact same sandbox.
So headaches were inevitable.
Sure, initially everybody was invited/asked/told to play in his/her own corner, to avoid confusion and contradiction, and to facilitate continuity-keeping. But that could only hold for so long.
And so, the need for a Continuity Cop arose.
But like Matt wrote, there really was a need for it all along. The powers-that-be were just buying a little time at first.
quote:
Isn't it the purpose of an author/designer to create? If you use someone else's ideas (plots, NPCs, artifacts, etc), doesn't that infer that you are NOT as creative as they are?
Not at all. It implies that you are writing in a shared world. You're sharing somebody else's stuff. In a shared world, the idea is kinda that you are supposed to be using each other's stuff, to some extent. To whatever extent you are truly creative, then you're not really sharing that bit of the world, anymore.
And just like when you were a little kid, sometimes that means that one kid gets more, and another kid ends up giving a little more. No parent has ever been able to make the sharing 100% fair. Usually somebody ends up getting held up as the "oldest" and asked/made to be a little more generous than the rest. And we're always told that there's supposed to be some sort of honor and nobility in that, too!
quote:
I'm not talking about 'borrow' - like a cameo of Elminster in some novel - I'm talking about using-up those plot hooks we were given. It TSR/WotC/Hasbro intends on tying-off every loose end, then the setting becomes a LOT less useful as an RPG setting.
This is true. Any fictionalization/novelization of bits of lore sorta seals the lore in stone, making it nigh impossible for canon-mongers to play creatively with it anymore, themselves.
But if you want true creative license, why play somebody else's game, with somebody else's game lore, in the first place?
quote:
To that end - as you mentioned - stories about 'smaller subjects', that do NOT need the "Sword of a Thousand Truths", or pulling Selune out of her orbit, or turning Thay into some place out of another setting, or re-arranging the planer structure of the universe itself, should be the normal way to proceed.
Bah! Bob gets knocked around, either way. If he uses established lore, inevitably someone's gonna point out how he used it wrongly--and add all sorts of modifiers like "careless", "sloppy", "selfish", etc. But if he writes small, inevitably someone's smugly gonna use that to say that Drizzt(/Bob) really isn't the big deal that his fans make him out to be, after all.
quote:
Let the designers design, and the authors create - that way, we gamers get to keep the toys we paid for. Seeing them used in novels is like buying a toy from a toy store, and then paying (again) to watch some other kids play with it. No kid wants that. Or worse, watching some big bully stomp all over it and tell us "its better this way" (all broken and crappy).
Wait a sec. If you're free to pick and choose which parts of the game lore you wish to include in your game campaigns, then why can't you likewise pick and choose which parts of the fiction lore you will include, as well? Why is the novel lore any more untouchable than the game lore?
(Or is that you can usually creatively work around the game lore, because it's worded in a more open-ended fashion, as opposed to the fiction lore?)
For me, ignoring either form of lore is anathema (except where it unfortunately seems absolutely necessary). I've never been very good at creating new stuff. I'm much better at collecting stuff, and analyzing it. Once I've gone to all that trouble to track it down, the last thing I want to do is to drop it by the wayside in order to push some personal pet agenda. I'm just not that closely tied to any personal ideas, like that.
That said, being a fan of Bob's, I've also gotten better at apologetics and retconning than I ever thought I would, too! There's a certain bit of creativity in those things, I suppose. 
quote:
In other words, if you want to write about an 'ancient dwarven stronghold', but the one you want to use is a thousand miles away, don't use it anyway and crap all over the setting - just create a different, similar one with a completely different name... is that really so hard? [...]
[... M]any of you can tell I am targeting one, specific bit or lore[...].
(Maybe I'm way off, here, and if so, I apologize right now, and ask you to steer me straight.)
But if you're talking about Bob's confusing use of Gauntlgrym, I'll point out that he has said that he got his idea of it being THE ancient dwarven stronghold of Delzoun from old conversations and/or notes from Ed, but he can't quite pinpoint exactly which ones. The canon lorebooks have only mentioned the newer site bearing that name, or a name just like it, as opposed to the much older, purely-Dwarven site.
(In fact, the canon lorebooks haven't even been consistent about the newer site; some books have dubbed it "Gauntlgrym", while at least one other called it "Gauntulgrym" {italics mine}. And it seems that every other book that has touched upon the place has given a different list of the denizens residing there, without explaining whatever happened to the last residents.)
Was Bob telling me truly, or was he making it up, to cover? I don't know; I was a pimple-faced young teenager when all this was going down and had nary a clue. But when Ed was pressed for clarification about this here at the 'Keep, he backed Bob up.
Gauntlgrym really was the much older dwarf fortress, while Gauntulgrym was a newer, human-and-dwarf settlement. But over the centuries/millenia, many Realmsians have confused the two into one site.
But the dwarves (and Bob) knew better...
quote:
In fact, I think that's a complete lack of respect, not only to the readers/fans, but also to the fellow designer/authors, who now have to back-peddle and make excuses for why things contradict. How egotistical do you have to be to "do things your way', even when you know its going to cause dozens of people (you are supposedly friends with) headaches? There is a word for folks like that - SELFISH. I simple name change could have saved everyone a lot of grief.
[...] Its infuriating, and a complete lack of respect for everyone else. If someone else wrote some canon, and you want to use it but change it completely, then DON'T USE IT - its pointless to do so. Either work within its confines, or move on to something else.
I am not talking about accidental mistakes (as RB did with the Tree of Life - the chief editor should have caught that) - those are forgivable. I am talking about when folks just don't give a damn (4eFR being the ultimate example of THAT). Consistency should be PARAMOUNT in a shared-world, and I applaud Matt for writing this article.
Being an outsider, I don't really know where the fault primarily lies: with the author, or with the editors. Ideally, a writer should fully research every last detail about the topics she's gonna be writing about before writing. But that's not alway possible. I'm not defending 4E, here, but you've gotta admit that the Realms have become a pretty unwieldy world, with all this lore. It's not really reasonable to expect every author to be an expert on every topic in the Realms. The editors can--perhaps--be expected to fill that role, but probably not the writers.
But the editors only have so much time, while they have all this material coming at them from so many directions. Can they rightfully be expected to catch every mistake, themselves?
What if it meant a significantly smaller amount of product being sent to the printers, and then to the bookstores?
And what if that smaller amount put the company in jeopardy?
I say we need veritable squads of continuity reserve deputy sheriffs, to help out the Sheriff/Chief. Let's all pitch in! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 05 Apr 2012 13:42:51 |
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smerwin29
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 16:01:50
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It's funny, because canon is a problem that is as old as early Mediterranean mythology, and we still haven't figured it out yet. Remember that the word "canon" originated with the arguments over religious texts, where experts argued about which rules and rites were "official" and which were secondary. There's three things I don't talk about in polite company: religion, politics, and fantasy-based canon. Of course, some would say that the latter encompasses the other two. ;-)
Matt, thanks for the interesting and timely article on Critical Hits. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 16:51:02
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EDIT: Just now read BEAST's post, and I have to admit he makes some valid points. When RAS doesn't use other people's toys, I accuse him of being elitist, and when he does, I accuse him of "doing it wrong". however, I have never had that problem with other authors, or at least, not nearly so much. As for my comment about DM-only areas - his one-and-only Quintet was set in Erlkazar. And humorously enough, they 'got even' with him by getting rid of Erlkazar in 3e... so those novels never happened.
EDIT2: What I mean by that last statement is that the maps in the novels are totally unreconcileable with the way the 3e maps were changed. Regardless, I just wanted to mention that RAS is STILL the only FR author who I have purchase every single FR novel to date, so he must be doing something right. You have to be a damned good writer to overcome MY persnickety-ness.
I didn't mean the toys shouldn't be used by everyone - thats the purpose of a 'shared world'.
All I meant is that they shouldn't be 'used up' (which is specifically what I said above, and tried to stress that). You want to use a certain plothook? Fine, but don't use it up (bring it to a close), UNLESSS you create at least three new ones to take it place (related to the one used, of course, which allows DMs to still travel down that same path). Ed tried to stress this early-on, and most of the original designer/authors followed this rule.
By the same token, don't kill-off someone else's character, or make some other life-changing thing occur to them, UNLESS you have permission by the creator (which I am sure Steven had from Ed), and it is by committee (MAJOR characters should only be killed-off when something pivotal happens to the setting, and EVERYONE should be on-board for the change... not just 4-5 people).
What I am trying to say is if you do have to use the toys, use them RIGHT - remember that other people might also be playing with them. DON'T make a male character a female, because it works better for your story, or change someone's hair-color (just because you are too cheap to buy new art), or alter a physical description (unless they've aged or put on weight), or their back-story, or their abilities, etc, etc. Put the toys back the way you found them.
Or my own pet-peeve... moving around locations. KNOW what side of a river a settlement is on BEFORE you write about it, or what mountain range it was in, etc. Several mistakes on older maps carried-through to newer ones, simple because the cartographer was going by the older maps, and no-one bothered to research things or give him a list of corrections.
One of the worst examples of "poor geographic knowledge" is the Nightmare Keep module - it seems pretty obvious that the author knew next to nothing about the setting - maybe just an outline - and now we are stuck with a 'piece of Cormyr' WEST of the Goblin Marches! In my own version of FR, I moved the entire module just north of Tilverton (which makes SO much more sense), but officially, its still 'stuck' where it doesn't belong. And lets not even get into the Khan that invaded the Vilhon Reach....
I guess I can boil-it down to "Know about something before you write about it" - is that too much to ask? I think some people just don't give a crap, and do what they want, regardless (and then the next edition of the rules has to change the game itself, just because he/she is a 'best-selling' author). Elaine is one of the few authors I think should have unlimited usage rights to characters and plotlines, because she does her research, and not only doesn't crap all over canon, but tries to mend all the frayed ends of the lore. Thats how a real shared-world writer writes!
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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Isn't it the purpose of an author/designer to create? If you use someone else's ideas (plots, NPCs, artifacts, etc), doesn't that infer that you are NOT as creative as they are?
Since this was Ed's setting from the start, does this mean we are all of us uncreative
AS creative as Ed? Not by a long shot. Guys like him come around maybe once a decade (on a planet of 5 billion people).
Some folks come damn close, like Steven Schend of Elaine Cunningham (which is why I look forward to Elaine creating her own setting), but they are still picking up where Ed left off (which is no reflection on their own talents - they are both awesome). To create an entire world, with a vast, rich history and tapestry of characters the likes of which no other setting (not even Middle Earth) can even come close to? Ed is the Michelangelo of fantasy settings - he has set the bar so high, most of us can't even see the bar.
Don't feel bad - I just compared him to J.R.R. Tolkien, and Ed 'won'. You can be real good at something, like golf or computers, but how many of us can go up against Tiger Woods or Bill Gates? It doesn't mean you can't be good at something - it simply means some folks are just in a league of their own. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Apr 2012 17:13:33 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 17:57:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Isn't it the purpose of an author/designer to create? If you use someone else's ideas (plots, NPCs, artifacts, etc), doesn't that infer that you are NOT as creative as they are?
Since this was Ed's setting from the start, does this mean we are all of us uncreative?
AS creative as Ed? Not by a long shot. Guys like him come around maybe once a decade (on a planet of 5 billion people).
I see what you did there.
Markus, I share your concerns and I like the valid points you made. It's clear you're highly passionate about the setting and that's a good thing.
But I wonder why its necessary to wrap your ideas up in so much negativity and cynicism? Raw negativity makes the atmosphere and mood in some of these scrolls practically toxic.
I dont see much more potential for constructive conversation in this thread so I'll be moving on from it.
Thanks again Matt for writing the article. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 18:11:23
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This may not be the right scroll, but Matt made a better argument as to why continuity is virtually impossible to achieve in a "shared" fantasy setting and thus maybe we shouldn't be attempting to advance the timeline any further.
What I think would be a much better solution would be to freeze the timeline as is (thus allowing play at any stage without worrying about future lore) and then publish "Realms History Books"** on major things from the past (written kind of like a good history book is today). That would do far more to develop the setting than advancing the timeline and wouldn't have to conform to any ruleset or edition of the Realms.
**I would include in here "history" from any point prior to 1485DR, but would put an emphasis on pre-1357DR to be more universal in usefulness to more gamers. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 19:06:15
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It's not virtually impossible, it just requires resources. If someone (several someones!) took the time to construct a comprehensive database of published Realmslore, that'd be an insanely useful tool that would solve many, many issues.
Even without that, continuity can be maintained by a willingness on the part of authors/designers to do research and stick to continuity, and by editors/continuity traffic cops that are double- and triple-checking to make sure everything stays kosher.
In my opinion, based in no small part on my experience with early Dragonlance, freezing a setting's timeline makes it stagnant, no matter how much you do in the past. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 19:34:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not virtually impossible, it just requires resources.
The number one resource would be the time to go through it all. There are so many different lorebooks, novels, and short stories that deal with the same topic that it boggles, sometimes.
And just when I think I can't possibly squeeze any more tiny writing onto a page of notes...I stumble across another blurb in another book.
And then I recall that I wrote some post somewhere where I was trying to be as comprehensive as possible, but I obviously left that last one out.
It must suck to be a book author in a situation like that! "Oops, my book on that subject just came out last Monday--dang it!"     
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If someone (several someones!) took the time to construct a comprehensive database of published Realmslore, that'd be an insanely useful tool that would solve many, many issues.
Encyclopedia Realmsianica!
Let's do it. I don't have much computer smarts, but I'll bring the RAS lore.
The FR Wiki would make a good start, wouldn't it? I don't like how wiki's can be undone so easily, but at least it's a start.
quote:
Even without that, continuity can be maintained by a willingness on the part of authors/designers to do research and stick to continuity, and by editors/continuity traffic cops that are double- and triple-checking to make sure everything stays kosher.
Add to that sufficient time in the writing and editing phases to catch it all. Deadlines cannot be so short that an author spends all her time conducting research through 20-50 books and a half-dozen websites, and then has no time to actually write. And the editing phase can't be rushed to make printing deadlines. Fact-checking has got to be given more respect, at all points along the path. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 20:44:04
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I should really take my own advice and stop beating dead horses. Apologies all around.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I dont see much more potential for constructive conversation in this thread so I'll be moving on from it.
Thanks again Matt for writing the article.
I'm sorry you feel that way - I tried the 'post once and move on' thing here... but its so hard for me to let go of certain things. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 21:48:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
This may not be the right scroll, but Matt made a better argument as to why continuity is virtually impossible to achieve in a "shared" fantasy setting and thus maybe we shouldn't be attempting to advance the timeline any further.
What I think would be a much better solution would be to freeze the timeline as is (thus allowing play at any stage without worrying about future lore) and then publish "Realms History Books"** on major things from the past (written kind of like a good history book is today). That would do far more to develop the setting than advancing the timeline and wouldn't have to conform to any ruleset or edition of the Realms.
**I would include in here "history" from any point prior to 1485DR, but would put an emphasis on pre-1357DR to be more universal in usefulness to more gamers.
-And make the setting 'unsupported'? Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, all those other settings, they all became unsupported, and their fanbase tapered off to a real trickle, until WotC made newer versions of a handful of them (and, even still, said fanbases are a fraction of what they were at the heyday of those settings' active support). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 22:15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
This may not be the right scroll, but Matt made a better argument as to why continuity is virtually impossible to achieve in a "shared" fantasy setting and thus maybe we shouldn't be attempting to advance the timeline any further.
The very fact that a sufficient effort to maintain Realms continuity in the pre-3e days existed, and produced results for ensuring a certain degree of setting-integrity whilst still moving the events of the world forward, kind of counters this point of view. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 23:53:35
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| "Virtually impossible" is a cop-out. Much larger franchises have been able to sally forth. A foundational thread needs to be maintained. The world is so large that there is plenty of space for everyone to play in. Keep the iconic characters in the trust of the veterans, and have them usher in the next generation. They, more than anyone, likely want to see their beloved stories carry on as well. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 00:06:54
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I have to agree with Sage's argument in this. Other franchises such as Star Trek, Star Wars, and Terminator are able to track "source" materials which rival the Realms in terms of raw quantity and complexity. These are all popular brands with huge followings, they (brands and followers both) are constantly expanding. In some cases there's mechanisms like time travel which rewrite half the canon each time a new product comes out, the Realms kind of has it easy.
It's true that there are divisions and schisms in how the fans interpret the canon for these products, the Realms brand is no exception. But the fact is that other franchises are able to maintain continuity well enough to please a large audience and continue growing - it's clearly not an impossible objective. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Apr 2012 00:09:40 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 03:32:26
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Bear with me on this: maintaining continuity on the 'classic' brands like Star Trek, Star Wars and Terminator are far easier than doing so with the Realms. The brands I've mentioned have that great quality that makes keeping continuity easy: room to move. How many episodes of Next Gen visited the same planet in multiple series. I'm not the greatest Next Gen fan, but I can't think of any. Additionally, they all have a tighter continuity base than the Realms. Books and tv with the vistas of space and 'the future' to give them scope to fit anything in without treading on any toes.
There's a reason Salvatore set his first novel in Icewind Dale. It was off the map. It gave him the freedom to write the story as he wanted and in broad fantasy tropes with a touch of Realms for flavor. In my view, when he broadened out into the canonical Realms, he struggled a bit and continues to do so. It's a pitfall that has bedeviled most FR authors unless they have done it cleverly by introducing characters that were so compelling that the fact that the Realms sat in a comfortable, 'broad brush strokes' background worked fine (ala Elaine) or that dove into the bottomless pit that is Realmslore and took their chances (ala Steven). Only Ed has had the ability to add realmslore in his fiction writing in any significant slabs. Others (like Erik) have made good attempts but haven't quite hit the mark in my opinion - this comment is brought to you by the Realms junkie who reads FR novels for the realmslore. If it's a good story, that's all to the good, but the second read-through is all about finding realmslore tidbits and dog-earring pages. I have ridiculously high standards in this regard.
The Realms is truncated. It is very well-detailed. With all due respect to Mr Tolkien, it is the gold standard. It takes a lot of hard work to write in the Realms. Nothing can, and nothing should, exist in a vacuum. It's been visited by a plethora of creative types for over two decades. Creative types who have varied in their commitment to respecting the setting's creator and those who have walked it's soil and sailed its waters before them. The most successful IMO have been those with the ability to first, park their ego at the door and write stories/gaming products for the Realms and not themselves, and secondly, those who have understood that they might not be the first person to ever write about X.
The Realms does need a continuity cop. The only issue is that it has to be someone with the gravitas and clout of a Jeff Grub or the inclusiveness and "hail fellow, well met" qualities of a Steven Schend. That person does not currently exist within WotC. The reason for that is the Realms, like all the campaign settings, has been unsupported in 4E. Want to make a campaign setting vibrant and alive? Release some gaming products that are set in it. The Realms has stagnated. It has certainly done so in my creative outlook and I've looked for and found other hobby outlets. That's not to say I've left the Realms behind: I don't think I could do that even if I tried. But the spark to 'write and think Realms' has taken a backseat.
The new edition gives WotC a new opportunity to make the Realms live again. To do so, they are going to have to address the continuity and 'sticking to canon' issue from the get-go. They will have to regain control of their setting. They will have to learn to say 'no' to the people they invite and re-invite to write in the Realms. They will have to pay as much attention to the little stories as they do to the big ones. And they will have to let people love the Realms again. The only way they are going to achieve that is to do 5E bloody well. I hope they pull it off.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 06 Apr 2012 04:39:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 04:35:47
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{Insert applause smiley}
Geeze, first Matt, and now George - you guys are bringing a tear this bedraggled curmudgeon's heart.
"Well, in Whoville they say - that the Grinch's small heart grew three sizes that day. "
--- Cheers |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Musings on Continuity
