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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 10:45:07
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
The FR Wiki would make a good start, wouldn't it? I don't like how wiki's can be undone so easily, but at least it's a start.
There is FR-wiki, on Wikia.
There are tales told by someone in not-really-canon sources such as NWN games, quotes from legitimate sources without references, rotting corpses of edition wars, fanon, really weird fanon, and so on - all messed together without distinction. 
The underlying problem, of course, is the usual: it's mostly made and remade by typical wikians - people who obsessively squirrel text, but don't see any difference between "information" and "regurgitated data". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 11 Apr 2012 19:20:44 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 12:07:28
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You'd be hard-pressed to find unanimous acceptance about what is and isn't canon once the fanbase grows sufficiently large. WotC simply defines canon as anything (or at least the most recent thing) stamped with their logo. The internet has no shortage of scribes who reject some or all of WotC's canon with great vehemence. Opinions differ on whether Dungeon and Dragon magazines or DDI content is canon. Comic books? Video games? Fan-submitted lore? What about stuff written by game designers who are no longer part of the TSR/WotC crew? What about stuff they wrote "back then" but never published, or OGL-published through another company? What about the volumes of stuff Ed submits at Candlekeep?
There's no point in arguing which of these is or isn't canon because the majority of us will refuse to reach agreement.
But in the interest of completeness I would prefer a wiki site to be comprehensive, to include all relevant data from all possible sources. And, importantly, to accurately cite which information came from which source. This would allow me to pick which content I prefer based on source, or which sources I prefer based on content. I don't care if it's written by Wizbro, or Greenwood, or misanthrope1978@yahoo.com ... if it's good I'll take it, if it sucks I'll reject it, if it's really good I want to know where to find more. A good wiki is only there to inform me, not to censor my decisions. Fortunately, D&D topics receive robust coverage across multiple wikis, enough that some of them actually have individual content which wasn't just mechanically clipboarded off another wiki ... so even the bad Realms wikis can be avoided. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Apr 2012 12:21:18 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 17:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Bear with me on this: maintaining continuity on the 'classic' brands like Star Trek, Star Wars and Terminator are far easier than doing so with the Realms.
-Not really too sure with Star Trek or Terminator (Terminator seems easy enough, outside of temporal anomalies caused by time paradoxes, and all that), but I would disagree with Star Wars. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 18:33:10
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
The FR Wiki would make a good start, wouldn't it? I don't like how wiki's can be undone so easily, but at least it's a start.
There is FR-wiki, [url=http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/]on Wikia[/url].
There are tales told by someone in not-really-canon sources such as NWN games, quotes from legitimate sources without references, rotting corpses of edition wars, fanon, really weird fanon, and so on - all messed together without distinction.
The underlying problem, of course, is the usual: it's mostly made and remade by typical wikians - people who obsessively squirrel text, but don't see any difference between "information" and "regurgitated data".
It's OK if it's a little sloppy right now because it's being used as a sort of brainstorming tool. They're just hoarding whatever they can find and can spend the time to copy and paste, or manually type.
But it looks like they need more editors to pretty up the raw data.
And they desperately need more citations of sources.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But in the interest of completeness I would prefer a wiki site to be comprehensive, to include all relevant data from all possible sources. And, importantly, to accurately cite which information came from which source. This would allow me to pick which content I prefer based on source, or which sources I prefer based on content. I don't care if it's written by Wizbro, or Greenwood, or misanthrope1978@yahoo.com ... if it's good I'll take it, if it sucks I'll reject it, if it's really good I want to know where to find more. A good wiki is only there to inform me, not to censor my decisions.
Agreed. Even if the poster gives an opinion on the validity of a given source, that source should still be cited. In my Drizzt chronology, for example, I still list outlier time clues from each of the stories, even though they don't agree with my chronological estimates, which are based on the sum total of the time clues across all the works and various lorebooks. It's the intellectually honest thing to do, sorta like acknowledging the existence of "The Minority Report". 
quote:
Fortunately, D&D topics receive robust coverage across multiple wikis[...].
That's problematic, because it introduces redundancy. I'd like us to all agree to one site and dump everything there. Having to check multiple websites is only a little better than having to check multiple stories and lorebooks. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 16:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Bear with me on this: maintaining continuity on the 'classic' brands like Star Trek, Star Wars and Terminator are far easier than doing so with the Realms.
-Not really too sure with Star Trek or Terminator (Terminator seems easy enough, outside of temporal anomalies caused by time paradoxes, and all that), but I would disagree with Star Wars.
Don't let them fool ya'...
SIZE matters. 
Whats the chances that two fairly ancient, uber-powerful beings have interacted in the past in Faerun?
Now whats the chances that two different powerful beings from different time-periods and from completley different worlds - perhaps clear across the galaxy - interacted?
Does planet 'X' on one side of the galaxy trade silk with planet 'Y' on the other? unlikely. Does some shopkeeper in Waterdeep import Sembian Silk? Probably.
Part of the problem with writing anything in the Realms (as you and I both know from experience) is the vast amount of lore involved on so many levels, and the inter-connectivity of all that lore - you pull a thread out here, and something unravels over there. In a place as vast as a galaxy, with a timeline spanning several eras, and all the lore is kept in very specific places (SW lore is only found in SW products), so long as you avoid the major arenas from the films (and major characters), it should be simplicity itself. I could probably write a decent SW story knowing next to nothing, or a Star Trek one (forget terminator - they have rebooted their continuity several times already). I don't have to write in those same areas - I can create an entire planet for myself and no-one would know the difference.
You can't do that so easily in FR - the history is so complete in some areas that if you create a town, someone will want to know how it was affected by A, B, and C. You have to figure-out how they get certain resources, what was the reasons for the setllement in the first place, who's side was it on in various conflicts, what organizations are interested in it, etc, etc.... you have almost none of that in a Scify franchise. Planets do literally 'exist in a vacuum' - FR simply can't do that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2012 17:01:03 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 01:35:05
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Your analogies elude me Markus, I suspect you're referencing some superhero/comic lore, the sort of stuff I never follow.
But "fairly ancient, uber-powerful beings" needn't be concentrated into a pair of godly mega-mutants who fly around and hurl each other into buildings. These entities might be pantheons, nations, tribes, even "normal" and otherwise unremarkable individuals who are vitally important because their deeds are the fulcrum points upon which hinge epic happenings of immense scope and magnitude.
Your analogy about unravelling the tapestry of Realmslore makes sense but I disagree. Skilled weavers can patch up anything seamlessly, they can reinforce existing patterns, they can layer new designs and elaborations which don't unravel anything underneath. A more apt analogy might be seeing Realmslore as a once carefully handwoven craft which more lately is just fixed up using iron-on patches, staples, and glue-guns. Plus some chunks of that extruded vinyl material you'd see on old car seats, perhaps technically tougher and better than real cloth or leather, but still just a cheap plastic, patently artificial, it just smells wrong.
In short - I agree that you can't easily craft new Realmslore which is perfectly consistent with old Realmslore. But it's not impossible, it can be done. It's just that in the past the "official canon" hasn't always been done right. I'm hopeful, and looking forward to the next wave of Wizbro Realmslore - I'll reserve final judgement until then. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 16:42:24
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Actually, (for once) I wasn't thinking about comic books at all.
For instance, we can look at the Realms only through the lens of the OGB. There are lots and lots of NPCs mentioned, but very little - if any - of their interconnectivity. Someone brand-new to the Realms might want to run an encounter with khelben meeting Elminster for the first time, or an author may want to write about how Elminster discovered some guy named Sammaster and tried to foil his plans... never knowing all these people already know each other, and have had dealings in the past.
Another example: I didn't think Filfaeril ever met Mirt the Moneylender, until I read the VERY FIRST Realms story - One Comes, Unheralded, to Zirta, and I only did so relatively recently (about three years ago). Had I been contracted to write an FR short-story, and choose to write about a random meeting between the two, I would have screwed-up royally. A planet loaded with uber-powerful magic-users, teleport spells, and Gates (portals), where some of those characters have been alive for a thousand years, is a very small sandbox indeed (compared to a galaxy).
And even in the much-beloved SW franchise, why the hell didn't Darth Vader recognize the damn robot he himself built? He's supposed to be some sort of freakin' genius, yet he somehow managed to forget quite a bit (brain damage from lava-swimming?) Or better yet, how come Chewbacca didn't know Obi Wan in the first three movies (which turned into movies 4-6)? People also like to overlook the part that two of the main heroes 'made out', and turned out to be sister & brother (Ewwwwwwww).
So, even in a massive setting like a galaxy, inconsistencies still creep-in (or questions like, "why do stormtroopers even bother to wear armor?" - is it a fashion-statement?)  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Apr 2012 16:44:31 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 07:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For instance, we can look at the Realms only through the lens of the OGB. There are lots and lots of NPCs mentioned, but very little - if any - of their interconnectivity. Someone brand-new to the Realms might want to run an encounter with khelben meeting Elminster for the first time, or an author may want to write about how Elminster discovered some guy named Sammaster and tried to foil his plans... never knowing all these people already know each other, and have had dealings in the past.
And in my eyes removing this feeling/possibility is the worst thing that can happen. And to a large degree it already has. But then again, I would rather have authors "screw up" canon than not using a really good idea because something had already been written. Hence me preferring the mid-era Dragonlance too. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 11:46:24
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A "really good idea" that doesn't respect the setting by ignoring previous products is no such thing.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 09 Apr 2012 11:47:27 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 14:13:18
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| Half of the setting is made up of ideas that, for better or for worse, didn't belong in the original Realms. Celts, DragonQuest, dinosaurs, Netheril, Ancient Empires? The respect for the setting is an open question, at what point did the hermetic canon start? If an old product is partly overwritten does that show a lack of respect from modern designers? If it goes against Ed's original ideas, is it then automatically a bad idea? Who's setting is the one that is canonized? New ideas has overwritten old ones since the start, so why stop? I never liked the tendency to change and ignore earlier aspects of the Realms, but at the same time I don't see any point in doing it to a point and then freezing. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 15:30:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Bear with me on this: maintaining continuity on the 'classic' brands like Star Trek, Star Wars and Terminator are far easier than doing so with the Realms.
-Not really too sure with Star Trek or Terminator (Terminator seems easy enough, outside of temporal anomalies caused by time paradoxes, and all that), but I would disagree with Star Wars.
Don't let them fool ya'...
SIZE matters.
-The problem isn't size. It is, for a lack of better words, the whims of the people who make it, who arbitrarily change what is official and what isn't official on a moment's notice as often as I decide what to wear. The Forgotten Realms hasn't invalidated and overwritten the events that took place during the siege of Myth Drannor four times (give or take). Star Wars has. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 09 Apr 2012 15:31:06 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 18:18:58
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I don't know SW (outside the movies) very well at all, so I wouldn't know. They really changed history in SW that many times?
Hate the Clone Wars, BTW - my kids watch it, but it is really bad, IMHO (aimed at children). Hopefully the girl with the tentacles sticking out of her head was one of the 'Younglings' lack-of-personality Skywalker disembowels later-on.
@Jorkens - I think what George is trying to say is that there is a very fine line between 'disrepecting' and adding to the setting by tweaking things as designers/authors go along, and it is also probably highly subjective where each person would draw that line.
You can add-in new material that adds layers to - or redefines - older lore, but when you flat-out ignore the older lore because you think you have a 'kelwer idea', you just disrespected EVERYONE that has worked on that lore up until that point, and also all the CUSTOMERS who have payed for the previous lore, which was so callously overwritten.
If I buy a car off a car salesmen, I expect him to try and sell me upgrades, and longer warranty, nicer tires and shinier rims, a better stereo, etc...
I don't expect him to show-up at my house the next day with a sledghammer and trash the car he just sold me, simply because he has even 'kewler' car to sell me. I'd probably chase THAT GUY down the block with a baseball bat.
Thats the difference, IMO.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Apr 2012 18:19:55 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 20:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't know SW (outside the movies) very well at all, so I wouldn't know. They really changed history in SW that many times?
Hate the Clone Wars, BTW - my kids watch it, but it is really bad, IMHO (aimed at children). Hopefully the girl with the tentacles sticking out of her head was one of the 'Younglings' lack-of-personality Skywalker disembowels later-on.
-I don't like the Clone Wars too much either, because it focuses too much on the same people that everything else is focused on. Between the CGI cartoon, the Genndy Tartakovsky cartoon, the comic books and the novels, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and a bunch of others seemingly don't get a single day's rest during the Clone Wars. If the CGI cartoon was focused on other characters, made-up specifically for the show, or established elsewhere and highlighted there, I'd like it a lot more.
-Looking at continuity, there are complete messes. Take Asajj Ventress, for example. According to the comic books, which came out first, she was an orphan who grew up on a wartorn planet, who was discovered by a Jedi who crash landed there and trained for a short period. He died and she eventually left, where she discovered Count Dooku and allied herself with him (Genndy Tartakovsky cartoon). After doing all kinds of missions for him, he eventually betrays her. She is believed to have been killed, but she actually put herself in a trance. She hijacked the ship the dead/wounded from the battle were on, and escaped into the wilds of space never to be seen again. According to the CHI cartoon, she is a Nightsister from Dathromiir, who was sold to slavers as a child (but still randomly old enough to have been trained in the ways of the Force and randomly loved her fellow Nightsisters). She allied herself with Count Dooku (Genndy Tartakovsky cartoon) and was eventually betrayed by him on orders of the Emperor. She went back to the Nightsisters and conspired with them to kill Dooku. Dooku wiped all of them out, so Ventress became a bounty hunter.
-Or, let's look at Darth Maul. According to the novel Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, he was once a Jedi youngling from the planet Irdonia, who was kidnapped by the Emperor at an early age and twisted to evil, tattooing his body in Sith tattoos. In the novel Darth Plagueis, the infant Darth Maul was given to the Emperor by a Dathromiri witch, thinking he was a representative from the Jedi Council. The witch wanted to hide her son from the leader of the Nightsisters, Mother Taozin, so that he could grow up free. In the Clone Wars CGI Cartoon, Dath Maul was a warrior from the 'Nightbrother Clan of Dathromiir, and his tattoos were what all 'Nightbrothers' wore. Mother Taozin, the leader of the Nightsisters, made an alliance with the Emperor, and she gave to him Darth Maul, who became his apprentice. (Darth Maul randomly lived somehow, according to the CGI cartoon, and is running around doing stuff again< FYI).
-Not only do we have different versions of the same events, but some are somehow "more canon" than others, because George Lucas is a selfish SOB like that. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 09 Apr 2012 20:59:10 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 01:32:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Not only do we have different versions of the same events, but some are somehow "more canon" than others, because George Lucas is a selfish SOB like that.
Actually, that has more to do with the way the folk at Lucas Licensing declare canon.
Granted, the Word of George is almost always entirely canon SW. But the degrees of canonical lore that the Licensing group [under Leeland Chee] have composed, ensures that aspects of questionable origin in canon, can and will, sometimes, receive the possibility of becoming official canon as a piece traverses the different ranking groups of LL canon.
As follows, an official breakdown of SW canon from Chee via starwars.com:-
quote:
G-Level covers the movies, scripts, and anything else which GL himself wrote or created. This trumps all when there is a direct, irreconcilable contradiction.
C-Level is the EU. The books, comics, RPG, CCG, computer games, sourcebooks, et all. Thus, we see that anything C-Level is considered true unless there is a direct irreconcilable contradiction with G-Level canon.
S-Level canon covers older sources like the old Marvel comics and other obscure SW lore which while not contradicting higher level sources, doesnt quite fit perfectly either.
N-Level is non-canon or Infinities. These are things that are completely ouside of continuity or are direct irreconcilable contradictions.
If a piece of information, character (ship, alien, etc), or event appears, or is referenced in a higher level source, it moves up to that new level. If an S-Level character is referenced in a C-Level source, it becomes C-Level, if a character from a C-Level source appears in a G-Level source (such as Aayla Secura appearing in AotC and RotS) that character becomes G-Level. If something is directly and irreconcilably contradicted by a higher level source, that factoid and only that factoid is bumped down to N-Level, but not the whole body of work. So, for example the mention of Owen Lars being Obi-Wans brother in the RotJ novelisation is now non-canon because AotC tells us that Owen lars is Anakins stepbrother, and no relation to Obi-Wan, but the rest of novelisation remains C-Level canon.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 07:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Half of the setting is made up of ideas that, for better or for worse, didn't belong in the original Realms. Celts, DragonQuest, dinosaurs, Netheril, Ancient Empires? The respect for the setting is an open question, at what point did the hermetic canon start? If an old product is partly overwritten does that show a lack of respect from modern designers? If it goes against Ed's original ideas, is it then automatically a bad idea? Who's setting is the one that is canonized? New ideas has overwritten old ones since the start, so why stop? I never liked the tendency to change and ignore earlier aspects of the Realms, but at the same time I don't see any point in doing it to a point and then freezing.
There is a difference between interpreting/putting a slant on old lore without invalidating it to accomodate your "great idea" and changing it outright (with no explanation) to accomodate your "great idea". The first I have no problem with - even though the execution has at times been wonky - the second I have big problems with. YMMV.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 21:45:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Not only do we have different versions of the same events, but some are somehow "more canon" than others, because George Lucas is a selfish SOB like that.
Actually, that has more to do with the way the folk at Lucas Licensing declare canon.
-George Lucas himself has stated that he doesn't read (or, for that matter really, care) about the products that others contribute to the total Star Wars universe, and considers his movies the only things that are technically official (and that the 'cannonicity' of things should stem from how far removed from anything he's had direct writing/directoral control over). "Theres my world, which is the movies, and theres this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They dont intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I dont get too involved in the parallel universe...I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
-I have absolutely no respect for him because of this. In effect, it would be akin to Ed Greenwood (making it relevant) saying that all of the stuff that TSR/WotC authors/designers/editors/etc. wrote are nice and all, but he doesn't give a crap about them, and doesn't consider them 'real'. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 10 Apr 2012 21:46:33 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 11:15:34
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Sadly i have to agree with you there. I am a huge Star Wars fan and a rabid collector of their novels so I know how these continuity issues ,especially thanks to the Clone Wars, are messing up SW.
Frankly after the debacle that was the Crystal Skull I think perhaps Lucas needs to retire and let someone younger and more creative take over. Then perhaps we will finally see some SW movies worth watching. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 12:48:24
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| That's actually one of the things I agree 100% with George Lucas in. Its his creation and for better or for worse that's what I want to see. Other people may have better ideas, but his is the ones I am most curious about where Star Wars is concerned, it is as simple as that. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 14:42:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
That's actually one of the things I agree 100% with George Lucas in. Its his creation and for better or for worse that's what I want to see. Other people may have better ideas, but his is the ones I am most curious about where Star Wars is concerned, it is as simple as that.
I get what your saying but the sad fact is that he seems to have lost all his creative zeal and is simply recycling the same old plots and styles in his movies. If Lucas gets his mojo back then great , I ll be the first one in the line for the new movies but if not then perhaps he should gracefully retire and hand over control to someone who will take the SW universe forward. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 14:49:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
That's actually one of the things I agree 100% with George Lucas in. Its his creation and for better or for worse that's what I want to see. Other people may have better ideas, but his is the ones I am most curious about where Star Wars is concerned, it is as simple as that.
I dunno... While I can see that stance, I'm also inclined to think that if you agree to let others play in your sandbox, then you should respect what they do.
And even with that aside, I have an issue with being told "oh, it wasn't that way before, and I just changed it to make what was there before more clear. Disregard the fact that it was pretty unambiguous before, I'm saying you were confused about it and what you previously thought was incorrect." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Apr 2012 14:49:45 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 15:12:43
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I have no problem seeing your point with that; I should add that there are several aspects of the extended universe I prefer over Lucas (the old comic books from between 2 &3 are better than most of the ideas that have appeared since), but I still want to hear what he thinks about his own creation. Which he of course has changed and modified again and again, even between the old movies, so the legitimacy of much of this is of course a bit shaky. But if the original creator feels he must follow another thread than the one that feels right something is wrong in my eyes. The simple way of saying it is that I don't like shared universes that take a single persons work and opens it up without the creator being in control. Glorantha, Thieves World and Known World/Mystara worked better than the Realms Star Wars as a shared univers or the Realms in this respect.
As for the last part of your post; that's the feeling new Realms products have given me time after time. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 16:04:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
That's actually one of the things I agree 100% with George Lucas in. Its his creation and for better or for worse that's what I want to see. Other people may have better ideas, but his is the ones I am most curious about where Star Wars is concerned, it is as simple as that.
-It's moreso the complete lack of respect and disregard for the people who his company contracts to add to the official Star Wars universe. Disdain for crappy FanFic, sure. Disdain for the people your company hires to write stories?
-If he believes that the Star Wars movies are the only official things, he should never have allowed his company should never have contracted various talented artists, writers, cartographers, and everything else, that have contributed to official Star Wars products, period. He's a greedy turkey is all, and I have little respect for him as a result.
-Plugging it back to the Forgotten Realms, would it be cool if Ed Greenwood's opinion was one that the stuff WotC/TSR has added to the Forgotten Realms after they bought it are nice and all, but he doesn't care enough to read any of it, and that, to him, none of it is technically real, anyway? Forget about all of the continuity issues that arise when he decides that something overwrites something else that has already been written in a product, it's plain disrespect. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 17:18:06
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I want to voice my general agreement and support for Matt James and George Krashos here. Theirs are voices of wisdom and should be heeded. 
A couple specific comments:
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
There's a reason Salvatore set his first novel in Icewind Dale. It was off the map. It gave him the freedom to write the story as he wanted and in broad fantasy tropes with a touch of Realms for flavor. In my view, when he broadened out into the canonical Realms, he struggled a bit and continues to do so. It's a pitfall that has bedeviled most FR authors unless they have done it cleverly by introducing characters that were so compelling that the fact that the Realms sat in a comfortable, 'broad brush strokes' background worked fine (ala Elaine) or that dove into the bottomless pit that is Realmslore and took their chances (ala Steven). Only Ed has had the ability to add realmslore in his fiction writing in any significant slabs. Others (like Erik) have made good attempts but haven't quite hit the mark in my opinion - this comment is brought to you by the Realms junkie who reads FR novels for the realmslore. If it's a good story, that's all to the good, but the second read-through is all about finding realmslore tidbits and dog-earring pages. I have ridiculously high standards in this regard.
I'm not sure what of my work you mean here specifically, Krash, but reading this comment made me think about my intentions as regards Realmslore. I think when it comes down to it, "adding Realmslore" isn't my main intention--rather, my goal is "telling stories in the Realms." Capturing the spirit, respecting the canon, and developing things rather than creating new things.
Though I will cop to creating certain bits of Realmslore (i.e. Helm 1480, the legacy of Vindicator, the Eye of Justice, etc). I wonder if the limited scope of my creations doesn't have more to do with the smaller focus of my stories. I haven't written a RSE, and I don't really have much interest in doing so (aside from, of course, the increased income from far superior sales and the furtherance of my writing career). That's where you see the main additions to canon.
Unless you're just saying that my work completely sucks, in which case, well, that's a whole different discussion.
quote:
The Realms is truncated. It is very well-detailed. With all due respect to Mr Tolkien, it is the gold standard. It takes a lot of hard work to write in the Realms. Nothing can, and nothing should, exist in a vacuum. It's been visited by a plethora of creative types for over two decades. Creative types who have varied in their commitment to respecting the setting's creator and those who have walked it's soil and sailed its waters before them. The most successful IMO have been those with the ability to first, park their ego at the door and write stories/gaming products for the Realms and not themselves, and secondly, those who have understood that they might not be the first person to ever write about X.
That's how I feel, absolutely.
quote:
The new edition gives WotC a new opportunity to make the Realms live again. To do so, they are going to have to address the continuity and 'sticking to canon' issue from the get-go. They will have to regain control of their setting. They will have to learn to say 'no' to the people they invite and re-invite to write in the Realms. They will have to pay as much attention to the little stories as they do to the big ones. And they will have to let people love the Realms again. The only way they are going to achieve that is to do 5E bloody well. I hope they pull it off.
This is exactly what I have been trying so darn hard over the last few months to support. It's the purpose of my One Realms thread and the Ed's Realms Facebook page.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 20:03:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But in the interest of completeness I would prefer a wiki site to be comprehensive, to include all relevant data from all possible sources. And, importantly, to accurately cite which information came from which source. This would allow me to pick which content I prefer
That's exactly what wikis aren't. Starting from wikipedia, they were never intended to properly work with information. At best, just means for assisted generation of hypertext. I doubt there ever be a modification of the engine that allows to assign such properties without jumping through hoops - wiki structure itself is unsuitable for this.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It's OK if it's a little sloppy right now because it's being used as a sort of brainstorming tool. They're just hoarding whatever they can find and can spend the time to copy and paste, or manually type.
But it looks like they need more editors to pretty up the raw data.
Alas, massive copypasting doesn't replace thinking.
Consequently, big open hotchpotch sandboxes are not "a little sloppy right now". It's the state of dynamical balance. For the same reasons why the oxymoronic idea of "encyclopedia which everyone can edit" is, at most, a delusion - and still would be if wikipedians honestly tried to do exactly this.
Moreover, since more sane people generally are likely to get tired of pointless tug-o-war faster than loonie fans, the situation is unlikely to improve over time.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Agreed. Even if the poster gives an opinion on the validity of a given source, that source should still be cited. [...] It's the intellectually honest thing to do, sorta like acknowledging the existence of "The Minority Report".
It's also what would allow to easily trace trends and relations between the sources.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Someone brand-new to the Realms might want to run an encounter with khelben meeting Elminster for the first time, or an author may want to write about how Elminster discovered some guy named Sammaster and tried to foil his plans... never knowing all these people already know each other, and have had dealings in the past.
Another example: I didn't think Filfaeril ever met Mirt the Moneylender, until I read the VERY FIRST Realms story - One Comes, Unheralded, to Zirta
Exactly. On the other eyestalk, here a pair of links for you.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 21:03:04
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Alas, massive copypasting doesn't replace thinking.
Consequently, big open hotchpotch sandboxes are not "a little sloppy right now". It's the state of dynamical balance. For the same reasons why the oxymoronic idea of "encyclopedia which everyone can edit" is, at most, a delusion - and still would be if wikipedians honestly tried to do exactly this.
Moreover, since more sane people generally are likely to get tired of pointless tug-o-war faster than loonie fans, the situation is unlikely to improve over time.
I was being nice. 
I hate the fact that some of my hard work on Wikipedia has been undone by people who came along after me, without at least moving my stuff to the Talk page so it could be preserved. That was enough to teach me not to bother with Wiki anymore.
If the FR wiki is just as bad, then maybe we need a moderated, gatekeepered database, instead.
But then, that gatekeeper would probably end up with a "To-Do" list to rival The Sage's!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 21:41:26
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
If the FR wiki is just as bad, then maybe we need a moderated, gatekeepered database, instead.
-Yes and no. Wookiepedia, the Star Wars wiki, has a lot more information in it, and a lot more traffic, but it is still very accurate despite the lack of "official" monitors. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 21:41:53
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</lurk>quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I hate the fact that some of my hard work on Wikipedia has been undone by people who came along after me, without at least moving my stuff to the Talk page so it could be preserved. That was enough to teach me not to bother with Wiki anymore.
You should be able to see what was changed through the sequence of edits listed for the page.
I'm not sure how long the edit history sticks around though.
<lurk> |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2012 : 01:52:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm not sure what of my work you mean here specifically, Krash, but reading this comment made me think about my intentions as regards Realmslore. I think when it comes down to it, "adding Realmslore" isn't my main intention--rather, my goal is "telling stories in the Realms." Capturing the spirit, respecting the canon, and developing things rather than creating new things.
Though I will cop to creating certain bits of Realmslore (i.e. Helm 1480, the legacy of Vindicator, the Eye of Justice, etc). I wonder if the limited scope of my creations doesn't have more to do with the smaller focus of my stories. I haven't written a RSE, and I don't really have much interest in doing so (aside from, of course, the increased income from far superior sales and the furtherance of my writing career). That's where you see the main additions to canon.
Unless you're just saying that my work completely sucks, in which case, well, that's a whole different discussion.
Erik, never in a million years would I say that your body of work sucks. You enjoy the adulation of the masses in regard to your writing, and I stand within that shouting mob in full voice!
What I (clumsily) meant was that you have indeed introduced realmslore in the setting. But I want more. I hold your talents in high regard so would love to see you add stuff. By "stuff" I don't mean anything realms-shattering: a mention of a place, a name for a plant, an allusion to an individual with a sentence to give us a mental image, a description of something unique to the Realms [coins, clothes, flags, etc. etc.] - when I read that kind of stuff I feel more immersed in the setting. In a world of fantasy, that is as it should be. Tolkien created mithril for a reason you know. He could just have easily said that elves and dwarves forge really hard steel! Give us more Realms - you've got the plot and storytelling stuff down.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2012 : 21:45:49
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-Just my own observations, but Erik is one of the best authors at adding the little innocuous tidbits of detail that aren't really important to the story at all that connect the story itself to the greater world. Ghostwalker especially, and to a lesser degree, Depths of Madness- but, Depths of Madness was very self-contained due to subject matter and story, so...
-Ed Greenwood, by virtue of being the creator of things, ranks at the top, obviously, but outside of him, Elaine is probably the best at this. Steve Schend also, but I wish he had more actual novels than his current body of work. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 12 Apr 2012 21:46:57 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 19:38:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
Steve Schend also, but I wish he had more actual novels than his current body of work.
I wish I had more novels in my body of work too, milord. Your lips to WotC's ears.
And a humble thanks for your kind thoughts, too.
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Musings on Continuity
