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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Aug 2011 : 16:29:40
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I'll admit this isn't a strictly Realms (or even D&D) topic, but still ...
In a nutshell the history of armor is people invented metalworking to make junky stuff like scale armor and knives until (chain) mail and swords became all the rage, then technologies continually marched forward, evolving the metal frontier into plate armors and manly big swords and ultimately into a variety of sophisticated heavy plate suits and exotic polearms. But by then the ideas behind warfare had changed; mounted cavalry became expensively obsolete in the face of cheap polearm-wielding mobs, firearms and heavy bows could kill armored men at range, mobility became far more important than defense (especially since the defense didn't always stop bullets). The heavy metal was gradually discarded from all but ceremonial functions, one piece at a time, until finally the armies of the world decided they'd be better off entirely without it.
Most of the sources I've read suggest that the final refinements in armor technology were never even used, being incomplete until shortly after armor fell into general disuse. In fact, a dwindling number of armorers attempted to ply their specialized trade for many decades. There's some interesting history describing how the last apprentices of the last master armorer (Daniel Tachaux) carried the dying legacy right into WWI, where they were instrumental in designing the helmets used by American and British soldiers. Even today, the army guys still go to the museums to analyze those old pieces of metal whenever they need insights and inspirations for their modern body armor designs.
I've read through the prolific awesomeness of Blankenshield Armoury and even the sites mentioned in this Candlekeep scroll and other places. It seems to me that these guys who fabricate suits of armor today - who're basically entirely self-taught in the craft - are largely ignorant of the finer "lost" secrets of the old masters; sure they have access to some archives and writings (and modern metallurgy, energy sources, and tooling) but it's just not the same as doing the years of hands-on apprenticeship under a recognized master of the craft. But what they do bring into the armor is a modern mindset; they invent functional refinements in every suit they manufacture, they actually improve the armors at an astounding rate when compared to the secretive olde guilds ... they see inefficiencies and can implement rapid corrections where the masters would only be blinded with traditional blinkers.
Here's only a few examples of what I mean (there are many more): modified Cuirass backplate, Blankenshield Jousting Shield System, the Grand Guard. Basically: the backplate is shaped and segmented to protect the neck and spine (and incidentally also allow superior mobility of the arms and shoulders), the shield is reinforced with the same heavy keel design used on breastplates plus it's balanced on the elbow, and a very useful chunk of metal is strapped on for jousting bouts. The sorts of very useful ideas which don't seem particularly revolutionary at first glance, and yet none of the master armorers over a dozen centuries ever did any one of these things.
D&D and the Realms are a wonderfully senseless collage with no real thought to maintaining any direct historical consistency with our own world. So at any given time somewhere in the Realms there can be found every type of armor ever invented throughout our history (plus even a few steam-powered versions that weren't). Firearms do not see widespread adoption in the Realms, plus they are still generally very primitive and sucky, it will apparently be a very long time indeed before they (and their ammo) are improved and mass-produced enough to replace bows and swords and armor.
So what sorts of amazing improvements in armor (or weapon) technology will we see in the Realms? It's true that they don't have access to computer controlled oxy-acetylene blast furnaces and HSLA industrial grade steels ... but then again they do have magic, dragons, fire elementals, mithril and adamantine. Moreover, the Realms is populated by fantasy races; many dwarves and even a few elves are already established as having superior metalwork to humans (elven chain is the best they got, seriously?), and just think of the wondrous military efficiency which could be forged by a fiend who's fought in the Blood War across a hundred planes even before the human gods existed.
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[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Aug 2011 16:31:43
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Gouf
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2011 : 17:06:47
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In our campaign there is an exceptional dwarven weapon smith that used to live in Calimport and adapted certain common magics to his trade. Flying carpets with stone slabs on top to move heavy items, (think ad&d anti grav sled). In game there are a series of magic fire starters sold under the name, 'Baby Efreet' that shot a variable 1 inch to 3 ft searing flame for starting normal camp fires and hearths. He adapted them to be the equal of a magic hand held propane torch. It allows him to do fine detail work of exceptional artistic detail almost anywhere.
Other innovations for dwarfs can be found in Dragon magazine 245. Which listed an extensive article on forges in AD&D. And such items as Dragon bellows, made from the fire sacks of a red dragon can get hot enough to generate phlogiston for forging adamantite and mithral.
I'll post a few others as they come to me.....
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"Why is the torch burning blue?" |
Edited by - Gouf on 24 Aug 2011 17:30:47 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2011 : 17:58:08
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| Well there is Elven Plate as well.Just rarer. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2011 : 20:13:41
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Plate armors are still the best protective gear to be found, as it stops all the expected weapons that are wielded across the Realms. Even the dreaded winched crossbow and musket shots are more likely to be deflected off a plate than to actually penetrate or even dent it. Chain mail is very effective against slashing weapons, and can be designed to catch piercing attacks or dampen bludgenoning blows with adaptations to the chain mails ring size and weave mesh respectively.
I'd think some magic enhancement to chain mail could have it incorporate minor animate magics to have the weave mesh catch and disperse the kinetic energy sustained by the armor. Intelligent chain mail and animated shields would need to move only slightly to effectively protect a wearer from even the heaviest blows. (2nd edition has the optional weapon vs armor rules wich add a certain degree of tactic to assertain the best weapon for the job, but this is best only used when focussing the campaign on humanoid on humanoid violence)
The proces of magically enhancing steel with protective enchantments can also be seen as technological advancement; an enchanted plate mail is masterworked to begin with (incorporating advanced forge tech such as gorgets, deflective rigid surfaces and lobstered flexible parts) and its magic can be seen as strengthening both the steel and the ring mesh or leather underneath. With plate mail existing for over 10 000 years, specially forged plated sets are bound to survive its wearer. Some of these could hold very specialised designs, such as full plate forged to withstand breathweapons with special materials and dragon bite and claw attacks by deflecting crenellations or embossing. Some mail may be made superior with force testing done by giants. Dwarves are likely to have found helmet shapes that deflect the big clubs giants wield better, while elves are probably so fond of their chain mails because of their superior protection against big slashing weapons. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 01:11:20
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Bladewind, your ideas about minor animation magics seem like one of many possible things which are simply abstracted by the game rules into magical "plus" mods on defense. Magical armor also often has the ability to resize itself (within limits) to fit any wearer; a little bonus which without magic would require many weeks of constant sweat and hammering. (Indeed many of our existing armor suits have long histories involving multiple owners, as you say they often do outlive their wearers, yet each time they're reworked or repaired they lose some of their integrity and lose details from surface finish, unless the smith has more skill and artistry than all those who worked on the piece before.)
Magical armor commonly seems less encumbering when worn, it's balanced better, it's more articulated, it's often less restrictive in every possible way. I'd suspect these things are mostly magical enhancements on little features which are already built into the armor, present to lesser degree in any masterwork armored suit which is of suitable quality for enchanting. Imagine the convenience (and economy) of a simple mending spell made permanent on a plate armor suit.
Hmmm, what I was trying to say is that - tracing the archeological history of metal armors through European civilizations - we reached our pinnacle of armor technology after less than 3,ooo years. Modern combat armor is engineered with advanced composite materials and extensive ballistic analysis, but really, we seem to have passed the point where the only possible improvements generally involve cost-reduction and new synthetic materials. Powered exoskeleton frames are under development and perhaps soldiers of the next century will look like they belong in Star Wars or Halo, but really, the principle armor technology itself, and the fundamental shapes of helms and vests and greaves remains fairly unchanged.
However - when restoring historical armor pieces we're able to improve quite a bit on the best available from those centuries-ago pre-industrial times, we can build chain and plate better, faster, and cheaper than ever imaginable. In fact, it seems like a craftsman dedicated to the armorer's art in our modern workshops can churn out a constant stream of "obvious" practical refinements and innovations and customizations which were seemingly never conceived by the masters. Imagine what that fellow from Blankenshield could produce (and how quickly) if he chose to work by machine instead of by hand, imagine how perfect armor engineering would become if armored suits were stamped out in automated factories the same way we make cars.
The Realms does have civilizations which have been around, in one form or another, for 10,000 years or longer. Legends speak of the elven armorers dedicating their (elven) lifetimes towards the crafting of but a single perfect suit of armor. Dwarves have already devised armors superior to the finest human technologies. Just like in our world there is a mystical Far East with its own different yet equally sophisticated armor technologies ... unlike our world, there's also the Creator races, the Underdark races, the Gith races, fiends and celestials, planewalkers and spelljammers from a thousand faraway worlds who could bring exotic examples of parallel armor technologies. I can understand civilizations like Netheril having little impetus when it comes to improving their clunky suits of armor, but surely a few centuries of constant strife and frequent warfare against monsters and men would inspire endless innovation among armorers competing for the gold offered by nobles in Cormyr and Sembia and Zhentil Keep?
What I'm saying is that armor technology in the Realms seems to be a weird snapshot of all the armors which could have ever existed in our world up to pre-industrial times (plus a few bizarre gnomish contrivances for variety) ... and that's it. It's stagnant, it seems content to have reached the same pinnacle it did on our world and just lost it's vital drive, gothic-style plate and renaissance-style full plate is top of the line, if you want anything better you just have to ditch your loyal blacksmith and go find some kind of mage? Are we really meant to believe that the handful of self-taught "modern armorers" on our world are more brilliant than all the full-time master armorers from all the civilizations (and all the gods) of the Realms and beyond? Why haven't there been any (non-gnomish) advancements in armor technology for many millennia? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Aug 2011 02:03:58 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 12:06:39
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Why need an armor when a plethora of spells would suffice? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 15:04:45
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I take the lack of innovation to be mainly a matter of genre or fictional mode. That is, most of the time the Realms serves as a sword-and-sorcery illud tempus, an alternative to our modern experiences and doctrines of 'progress', a place where Gondar are abnormal. So in magic, new spells are always being developed but the state of the Art is not necessarily more advanced than a few centuries ago but rather runs on different fashionable strengths and weaknesses.
Reading Ed's fiction carefully, armour is almost always leather, mail and/or plate -- the transhistorical collection that Gary assembled into equipment lists isn't supposed to be all found together anywhere in their worlds; and the variation cross Faerūn is further example of the highly local nature of life there. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 15:20:04
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| Well the armor stats are just vague guidelines, most armors are unique. What about all the special materials, like the Susalian chainweave, Ysgarian heartwire, elven leafwave, glassteel, darksteel, shadowsilk, alchemically treated copper, silver, gold armors. Don't they count for technological advancements? Armors that took a lifetime to complete should be looked for among magical items, like Bruenor's hammer, just remove the magic aura. There's also a nice article in Dragon 358 with similar item qualities. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 15:28:41
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Some armors of the Shadovar took years to be made. And those armors don't only function as protection; they are more like an extension of their shadow-related abilities. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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AdamBridger
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
118 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2011 : 16:47:46
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I think that armour in the Realms although influenced by real world styles cannot be judged comparatively due to the nature of the different races, mythical minerals and magic. Because of this armour can be artifically enhanced beyond its real world equivelent. As such Forgotten Realms leather armour could theoretically be stronger than plate or chainmail armour.
Therefore in the future I do not see any major changes happenning in the Realms to armour - the significant majority of people will always have leather, plate or chainmail armour (enhanced with magic or not). However, I do possibly see the styles of armour changing over time as new styles are introduced or old styles return to fashion. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 00:10:23
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Hmm, there's some merit to that argument. After a certain threshold the technology reaches a plateau and further innovation/research yields increasingly diminished returns on already optimized metalwork. The quickest path to more armor class points then becomes magical enhancements and metals with mystical properties.
Armor styles in our own history were largely dictated by the quirks of the armorers themselves, sages of such stuff can easily tell who made which piece and which craftsmen apprenticed or influenced each other. Apparently distinctive details were as complex as any other form of heraldry - one's suit of armor could indicate nation, lord, title, fealty, piety, wealth, station, and rank to anyone (educated in such matters) who saw what you were wearing.
I suppose historians from the next millennium will offer similar commentary about how our society was fascinated with assigning social status based on cosmetic differences between different models of technologically obsolete internal combustion vehicles. I just hope they've outgrown the trap we've fallen into, where everything that's "old" is just lumped together into loosely blurred categories ... Roman legions driving panzers across Europe seems ridiculously inaccurate to us now (if admittedly an interesting notion), but it's basically the same fallacy as what's been built into pseudo-Medieval D&D settings. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 00:33:34
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quote:
Quale
Well the armor stats are just vague guidelines, most armors are unique. What about all the special materials ... Don't they count for technological advancements? Armors that took a lifetime to complete should be looked for among magical items ...
I'll make a point of reading that article, thanks Q.
I suppose those sorts of armors do count as technological advancements. Obviously a smith who only knows bronze will need to learn more to properly use steel, I imagine the same holds true with adamantium and darksteel and all the rest; if these things are better and just as easy to obtain and work into items then why would anyone have ever used steel or bronze?
But the reason I discount those examples as "technological advancements" is because, as you say, they're basically unique items as rare as magic items unto themselves. Elven chain isn't really about about saying "refinements on chain mail which can be learned by any master armorer who obtains a suit to study", it's really more about saying "elves are better than humans, don't even bother". Dwarven plate is really just a message which says dwarves are stubbornly resistant to damage. The other examples you list pretty much boil down to culturally thematic elements ("it's just like chain mail, though it isn't and it looks totally different"), or to armor technologies which replace steel with other materials (bronze, mithril, darksteel, glassteel, alchemical alloys, whatever).
To me a "technological innovation" needs to be something which could be used by anyone who masters the principles of the technology. If you say only dwarves can make it work or only a handful of special elves know the ancient secrets then it's really more of a racial bonus based on fantasy mysticism than a practical technology based on hammer and anvil and forge. Anything made (even in part) with spells or enchantments of any sort clearly involves some mastery of magical "technology" which is something entirely different from what metalsmithing engineers would normally understand. It would be like todays metalshop armorer installing servo motors and controller PCBs (the inner workings of which he likely doesn't comprehend, provided they just work as specified) to turn his hammerworked armor suit into some kind of cyberpowered exocarapace. |
[/Ayrik] |
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AdamBridger
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
118 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 11:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Hmm, there's some merit to that argument. After a certain threshold the technology reaches a plateau and further innovation/research yields increasingly diminished returns on already optimized metalwork. The quickest path to more armor class points then becomes magical enhancements and metals with mystical properties.
Armor styles in our own history were largely dictated by the quirks of the armorers themselves, sages of such stuff can easily tell who made which piece and which craftsmen apprenticed or influenced each other. Apparently distinctive details were as complex as any other form of heraldry - one's suit of armor could indicate nation, lord, title, fealty, piety, wealth, station, and rank to anyone (educated in such matters) who saw what you were wearing.
I suppose historians from the next millennium will offer similar commentary about how our society was fascinated with assigning social status based on cosmetic differences between different models of technologically obsolete internal combustion vehicles. I just hope they've outgrown the trap we've fallen into, where everything that's "old" is just lumped together into loosely blurred categories ... Roman legions driving panzers across Europe seems ridiculously inaccurate to us now (if admittedly an interesting notion), but it's basically the same fallacy as what's been built into pseudo-Medieval D&D settings.
One things that seperates settings such as Forgotten Realms from real world Medieval history is that travel and accessibility to areas is much easier and common in FR than it was in the real world. For example, medieval Japan was very isolationist and only had very limited contact with the outside world for many years. As such, armour and weapons (in particular the katana blade) went in a very different direction to Medieval Europe. However, in the Realms armour types and styles can travel to many different countries quite easily with trade etc and this has resulted in varying armour types and styles inspired from various areas and eras of real world history being readily available across the Realms. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 11:59:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I suppose those sorts of armors do count as technological advancements. Obviously a smith who only knows bronze will need to learn more to properly use steel, I imagine the same holds true with adamantium and darksteel and all the rest; if these things are better and just as easy to obtain and work into items then why would anyone have ever used steel or bronze?
I take 3e PHB armor stats as the technological standard in 1370 DR, for the North, Heartlands and around. The improvements are already included in the stats. My belief is that magic is not separated from technology, it is a part of the world, most smiths should have bit of ''magic''. For more specialized improvements that did not spread yet into the world I suggest using magical special abilities of armors and shields, those that don't appear as if some spell was cast on them. E.g. arrow deflection, bashing, fortification, anchoring, drowcraft etc. there's lots of them, these could all be higher class armors. And the prices are too high, usually such items are never be considered for shops just cause they are magical, keep the benefits, lose the aura if it bothers you.
I mean in the real world copper is really weak, but in a fantasy world copper could be the most malleable and suitable for experimentation and with many metallurgical qualities that are kept secret by the guilds or other groups. Iron could be the opposite, until the industrial age starts. In a world where Lantan and Mulhorand exist at the same time I don't see why Mulhorand should import iron, it's better if you keep their uniqueness. Why shouldn't they after 3000 years have a metallurgic technique that makes bronze a match for steel? In fantasy everything is better.
As for the dwarves, elves and old kingdoms, they've all a bit decadent it evens out. Tough I have no problem equipping most of their army in elven chain or dwarven plate. The Blood War is fought in the realms of belief, with superior armor improvements, but their effectiveness is toned down in the Prime. Such armors are in way like the zerth blade, they channel their wearer's spiritual force. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 17:42:51
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| One thing I'd say is that the varying cultures might not share their secrets with one another. Yet, when one culture kills another, the spoils of war is the armor. As a result, maybe some gnolls that could develop scale mail but not the intricacy of chain mail are killed. The gnollish armor is then taken off its body to be sold by the killer. Some armorer buys the armor, soaks it in something to get rid of the gnoll smell, then does some basic modifications/repairs to resell it, possibly dismantling one suit to repair 5 others quickly. As a result, he's not spending as much time remaking the armor, and he knows its inferior, so he sells it for cheap. Your down on his luck adventurer, or merchant who just wants something to protect themselves, picks this up. Eventually, it gets handed to their son just to train in so his brother doesn't easily break his ribs.... and life moves on. All because those gnolls didn't know how to make chain mail, but they instead made some scale mail. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AdamBridger
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
118 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2011 : 14:35:53
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One thing I forgot to mention is that historically armour developments were because of development in weapons. The introduction of stronger metals in weapons, more powerful bows and arrows and eventually the introduction of firearms led to the development of stronger, different armour that was more suited to stopping the weapon of the era. This introduction of new armour therefore led the search for new weapons to breach this armour. Therefore it is impossible to judge armour by itself and it has to be viewed in conjunction with weapons.
Therefore I ask the question - what new developments in weaponry are we likely to see in the Realms? From this we can speculate what armour developments are could occur. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2011 : 14:51:29
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| Wondering what people think of Deadliest Warrior where in the Joan of Arc and William the Conqueror episode, they claim to have proved from motion capturing that Joan's plate mail had more range of movement then Willaim's chain mail haddock. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2011 : 15:24:55
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I think Deadliest Warrior has a great idea: scientific analysis and comparison of battlefield technologies. But their implementations of that idea lead them astray: they arbitrarily simplify complex parameters into a one-size-fits-all cookie-cutter format, they conduct their experiments with statistically irrelevant sample sizes, they allow themselves to be influenced by the posturing braggadocio of their "warrior" guest stars, they factor their own personal biases into their magic formula and even give these opinions the same weight as the numerical data. In short, what they claim they do is awesome, what they actually do is mere entertainment; their approach is a mix of proper research, pseudo-science, and popular opinion.
Having said that, it's quite possible their assertion about that plate armor is correct. Sometimes they hit things right on the mark and express interestingly intelligent insights. But there's just as much chance they decided to give an "edge" to the plate armor so that the race could go either way until this week's one hour episode was completed. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Sep 2011 15:32:06 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2011 : 15:42:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Wondering what people think of Deadliest Warrior where in the Joan of Arc and William the Conqueror episode, they claim to have proved from motion capturing that Joan's plate mail had more range of movement then Willaim's chain mail haddock.
Can't stand that show. I think the "Dr" on there graduated last in his class |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2011 : 18:08:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Wondering what people think of Deadliest Warrior where in the Joan of Arc and William the Conqueror episode, they claim to have proved from motion capturing that Joan's plate mail had more range of movement then Willaim's chain mail haddock.
I've not seen that show, but it defies logic to say that chain mail is more restrictive than an inflexible material. The only way I could see that happening is if the plate mail was made with great emphasis on mobility (perhaps more emphasis there than on protection) and the chain mail was exceedingly heavy -- heavier than the plate, especially in the arms. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2011 : 22:16:24
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From the wikipedia episode summary:
quote:
For Armour, Joan's Full Plate was tested against William's Chainmail Hauberk in encumbrance and protection capability. Joan's Full Plate only reduced her mobility by 14% and deflected a blow from the Norman Broadsword while William's Chainmail Hauberk reduced his Mobility by 27% and was pierced three times by the Arming Sword. The edge was given to Joan's Full Plate due to its lighter weight and the failure of William's Chainmail Hauberk.
Basically Joan's sword was made for it can do mostly thrusting and could be held for more strength. Willaim's armour seemed to protect against slashing melee weapons, more the blunt or piercing weapons. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 01 Sep 2011 22:43:48 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2011 : 02:20:29
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I'm not entirely convinced those accurate-seeming percentile scores have any real value. Were they tested on the same individual doing the same movement tasks, or is Joan 13% more mobile than William even when unarmored? Were the tests repeatable, were they conducted a sufficient number of times to confirm the percentages followed meaningfully consistent patterns? Did the three "experts" bias the data with their "edge" weighting? Proper science does not include (indeed, actively disallows) for any preconceptions or expectations to influence conclusions, it is based purely on experimental confirmation achieved through quantitative and qualititative data.
Were any other factors taken into consideration, such as cost and availability of these armors, amount of training or physical prowess needed to use them skillfully, error margins caused by duplicating or altering the armors from their historical patterns, the fact that the alloys and tolerances involved in their reproduction could've drastically altered their balance or durability? I suspect Deadliest Warrior is generally happy with whatever mean-looking chunk of metal roughly approximates the battlegear of the era, not with achieving meticulous historical authenticity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2011 : 02:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm not entirely convinced those accurate-seeming percentile scores have any real value. Were they tested on the same individual doing the same movement tasks, or is Joan 13% more mobile than William even when unarmored? Were the tests repeatable, were they conducted a sufficient number of times to confirm the percentages followed meaningfully consistent patterns? Did the three "experts" bias the data with their "edge" weighting? Proper science does not include (indeed, actively disallows) for any preconceptions or expectations to influence conclusions, it is based purely on experimental confirmation achieved through quantitative and qualititative data.
Were any other factors taken into consideration, such as cost and availability of these armors, amount of training or physical prowess needed to use them skillfully, error margins caused by duplicating or altering the armors from their historical patterns, the fact that the alloys and tolerances involved in their reproduction could've drastically altered their balance or durability? I suspect Deadliest Warrior is generally happy with whatever mean-looking chunk of metal roughly approximates the battlegear of the era, not with achieving meticulous historical authenticity.
The had the female Joan expert and the male William expert do the same motions (Jabs, slashs, and so on) without armor and then with the armor of the warrior, in front of a motion capturing system using replicated armor. Then calculated the decrease from mobility from their unarmored state from the look of it.
Likely it is not the 'scientific' test we look to, but it brings up an interesting idea of what kind of new tests might be performed with our new technology. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 02 Sep 2011 02:53:23 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2011 : 03:01:15
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| Even this sort of testing would be more useful (or at least more amusing), I think. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2011 : 18:01:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Even this sort of testing would be more useful (or at least more amusing), I think.
It's just that if we can capture true human motions and use cameras/computers to recognize faces, and so on with things like bio-metrics...
... why not apply this to arms and armor of the past, to see their weaknesses and benefits? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 03:41:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I mean in the real world copper is really weak, but in a fantasy world copper could be the most malleable and suitable for experimentation and with many metallurgical qualities that are kept secret by the guilds or other groups. Iron could be the opposite, until the industrial age starts. In a world where Lantan and Mulhorand exist at the same time I don't see why Mulhorand should import iron, it's better if you keep their uniqueness. Why shouldn't they after 3000 years have a metallurgic technique that makes bronze a match for steel? In fantasy everything is better.
In the real world, bronze is about equivalent to iron/steel for armour production. Only 15th century furnance technology allows superior steel armour to what you can make from bronze.
The advance of iron over bronze is that it is more plentiful on our Earth and thus cheaper. Bronze is actually easier to work, so if a fantasy culture had loads of tin and copper, you'd probably not see them adopt iron armour at all (except possibly some imported pieces of high-tech proofed steel field plate).
As it turns out, my Mulhorandi and Unther cultures have a lot of bronze artifacts and know a magical technique for forging it into orichalum (super-bronze). As a result, while their front-line modern military forces have iron and steel armaments, their militia and reserves often use old bronze gear and their elite forces have orichalum (and magical) gear. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 06:01:18
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Orichalcum is just another mystical metal, like mithril or adamantium. I would think it's about as plentiful on our world as Technetium on Toril. Innumerable fantastic metals and materials have been invented for D&D, some are excellently detailed in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical.
Sure, adamantium or orichalcum is better than steel for making armor, while steel is better than bronze, and bronze is superior to copper. Aluminum is also better than steel for body-armor applications, and far more plentiful than any other metal on our world, yet remains unknown to the Realms. Modern engineering plastics, ceramic-metal alloys, and carbon composites are even better than aluminum or mighty titanium.
It's true that any metal armor is vastly better to stuff made from bone and wood and leather, the difference in effective armor protection between steel and bronze is much less than that between bronze and wood. It's also true that in a fantasy world certain materials have all sorts of magical affinities and properties; a suit of magical copper armor might be far superior to the hardest nonmagical materials in the land.
My intent when creating this scroll was to focus on the technology, engineering, and craftsmanship involved in making the armors, not so much on determining which particular material or kind of armor would be better. Blankenshield, for example, uses "turners", basically a sort of rotating bearing armature, on every joint, even on nonmoving parts like the forearms and upper legs ... this one little innovation alone removes almost all of the wearer's penalties on movement. Yet, after a dozen civilizations and tens of thousands of years, none of the armorers of the Realms have ever managed to substantially improve their craft beyond the high end full plate stuff offered in the Player's Handbook? Even the exotic and supposedly superior armors worn by elves and fiends is little more than fanciful cosmetic variation from the usual fare, they are invariably treated the same as some other standard armor type within the game rules. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Nov 2011 06:02:30 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 06:08:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My intent when creating this scroll was to focus on the technology, engineering, and craftsmanship involved in making the armors, not so much on determining which particular material or kind of armor would be better. Blankenshield, for example, uses "turners", basically a sort of rotating bearing armature, on every joint, even on nonmoving parts like the forearms and upper legs ... this one little innovation alone removes almost all of the wearer's penalties on movement. Yet, after a dozen civilizations and tens of thousands of years, none of the armorers of the Realms have ever managed to substantially improve their craft beyond the high end full plate stuff offered in the Player's Handbook? Even the exotic and supposedly superior armors worn by elves and fiends is little more than fanciful cosmetic variation from the usual fare, they are invariably treated the same as some other standard armor type within the game rules.
The field and full plate armour of the Realms is presumably intended to represent the height of real world armourcraft, including sliding rivets.
After that advance, the improvements mostly involve materials science and metallurgy. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 12:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The advance of iron over bronze is that it is more plentiful on our Earth and thus cheaper. Bronze is actually easier to work, so if a fantasy culture had loads of tin and copper, you'd probably not see them adopt iron armour at all (except possibly some imported pieces of high-tech proofed steel field plate).
As a construction/armor material, bronze is, very roughly speaking, as good as a steel of the next quality category (starting with mostly-decorative alloys and ending with berillium bronze being as good as some tool steels but not as good as highly doped steels).
The main problem is that it's significantly heavier than steel. Mass as such is a good thing for armor, but obviously inconvenient. So, here folk uses Titanium based personal armour (and Titanium is... a bit dodgy) because these are light and there folk uses glassteel... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 22:53:39
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The advance of iron over bronze is that it is more plentiful on our Earth and thus cheaper. Bronze is actually easier to work, so if a fantasy culture had loads of tin and copper, you'd probably not see them adopt iron armour at all (except possibly some imported pieces of high-tech proofed steel field plate).
As a construction/armor material, bronze is, very roughly speaking, as good as a steel of the next quality category (starting with mostly-decorative alloys and ending with berillium bronze being as good as some tool steels but not as good as highly doped steels).
The main problem is that it's significantly heavier than steel. Mass as such is a good thing for armor, but obviously inconvenient. So, here folk uses Titanium based personal armour (and Titanium is... a bit dodgy) because these are light and there folk uses glassteel...
The point is that steel alloys that were better than bronze did not exist until the 15th century and even then, they were fantastically expensive to make in quantities that would make a whole suit of armour. Mass-produced steel that makes armour superior to bronze is a result of the Industrial Revolution.
That is, in our world. The reason we had iron and steel armour in our world is simply that bronze grew ever more expensive, with tin and copper in easily accessible locations becoming played out during the Bronze Age, due to massive demand for the materials. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Armor technologies
