| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 10:27:11
|
Again, I said above what the examples where. Its the original villages of Netheril that are named after band members. There being individual references to songs is something I have never heard about, but I never read Slades books that much.
The villages are:Fenwick, Gers, Gilan, Gustaf, Moran, Nauseef, and Janick.
Ray Fenwick: Mostly session musician. Guitarist of Ian Gillan band.
Ian Gillan: Vocalist of Episode Six, Deep Purple, Ian Gillan band, Gillan, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple again.
John Gustafson: Bass. Merceybeats, Quartermass, Roger Glover, Ian Gillan band.
Mike Moran. Mostly produces, but played Keyboards with Ian Gillan band. Mostly the Keyboards of both Gillan and Ian Gillan band were handled by Colin Towns; his name might be a part of the joke as all the names are used for settlements.
Mark Nauseef: Drums. Worked with Elf, Ian Gillan Band, Thin Lizzy, Gary Moore, Phil Lynott etc. In edition more experimental music.
Janick Gers. Guitar. Member of Gillan and Iron Maiden.
As for using references like this. I never liked it. Its an in joke that is pointless if you dont know the band and irritating if you do.
|
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
 |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 14:53:39
|
| Thanks Jorkens, 7/7 seems pretty conclusive to me. Yeah, "inside" details are always a bit lame once you actually understand what they're all about. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 15:03:41
|
| -Ha, ha, I have to say, that is kind of clever. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 18:55:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Again, I said above what the examples where. Its the original villages of Netheril that are named after band members. There being individual references to songs is something I have never heard about, but I never read Slades books that much.
The villages are:Fenwick, Gers, Gilan, Gustaf, Moran, Nauseef, and Janick.
Ray Fenwick: Mostly session musician. Guitarist of Ian Gillan band.
Ian Gillan: Vocalist of Episode Six, Deep Purple, Ian Gillan band, Gillan, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple again.
John Gustafson: Bass. Merceybeats, Quartermass, Roger Glover, Ian Gillan band.
Mike Moran. Mostly produces, but played Keyboards with Ian Gillan band. Mostly the Keyboards of both Gillan and Ian Gillan band were handled by Colin Towns; his name might be a part of the joke as all the names are used for settlements.
Mark Nauseef: Drums. Worked with Elf, Ian Gillan Band, Thin Lizzy, Gary Moore, Phil Lynott etc. In edition more experimental music.
Janick Gers. Guitar. Member of Gillan and Iron Maiden.
As for using references like this. I never liked it. Its an in joke that is pointless if you dont know the band and irritating if you do.
Some of those names aren't bad for names of fantasy locales... But if I did something like that, I would have changed each name to make it a little less obvious. Maybe "Fennelwick" or even "Fenwyck" instead of "Fenwick," for example...
I'll admit for a couple of my Hooks, I lifted names from somewhere else, but I modified them at least a little. Davios the fox was named after Hanse Davion from the Classic BattleTech universe; Hanse's nickname was "the Fox" (calling the fox Hanse would have been too obvious for me). And from another Hook, the NPC Ratham Sandoma was inspired by and named for Ranma Saotome, from the anime Ranma ½.
I've an NPC I've been fiddling with who was named after a friend, because said friend gave me the idea I needed to make the NPC work. But I didn't name the NPC directly after the friend -- I instead took a name the friend really likes (and has used more than once in his own scribblings), and modified that.
Again, gotta change it up a bit.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 18:57:55
|
| -In an of themselves, most of these aren't bad or anything. It's when you look at Netheril as a whole, that other places (before or after this product) were given more "fantasyish" names that it becomes jarring. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 07:17:36
|
| I prefer old Netherese names, e.g. City of Shade more than Thulthantar, and other english ones |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 15:02:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I prefer old Netherese names, e.g. City of Shade more than Thulthantar, and other english ones
-I generally use "City of Shade", or "Karsus' Enclave" more than the Netherese 'translations', and only really see problems when people use the two in conjunction- certain places have "basic" names only, while others have "Netherese" names. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 16:16:27
|
*meh*
One of the very few things that ever irked me in the Greyhawk setting was hepMONAland, which was nod to Erik Mona (not sure if it was his idea).
I don't mind people sneaking this stuff in, but only if it fits the setting (and very little of the Netherese box fit the setting, IMO), and if it is about someone else (and preferably someone NOT famous).
Gary Gygax did this A LOT, but it it is an 'inside joke' - more of a homage to his original players. Thats fine. Slade just rubs me the wrong way entirely (mostly by ignoring Ed's Netheril notes almost completely).
Sorry Jorkens - my comment was biased (against Slade). I have listened to Deep Purple when I was younger (and they were current), but I feel like he has sullied them now. Isn't it weird how your attitudes can change about something, just because of an association to something else?
I thought the enclave-names were taken form song-titles, but obviously I was way off base with that one. 
Some of them sound like they'd make good song titles, though... especially New Age. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 28 Mar 2012 16:18:53 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 16:34:49
|
Well, when you boil it all down in the crucible of objectivity ... the Realms are a fictional setting and every name in every Realms product is entirely fictional, some are invented fabrications and others are reinvented inspirations. By now the names of people and places and things in the Realms probably have more "inside" references than all other D&D products combined, given the sheer number of contributing authors it's impossible to ever know them all - some are admirable tokens of homage or respect, others are fundamentally lame.
But however they're assigned, the names are names and they now designate specific things. So published Netheril is different from Ed's Netheril, it's still Netheril and all told (I think) it's pretty good. People discuss mythallars, Karsus, Larloch, and the Shadovar endlessly; even if none of these were created within Ed's original vision of Netheril. If Slade didn't write up Netheril then either we wouldn't have Netheril at all (which would be bad) or Ed would have to write it ... well Ed's always working on writing something, so if he had to write Netheril then he wouldn't written something else (which would also be bad). I don't think I would choose to trade if the price of a "better" (or at least different) Netheril was, say, one of Volo's Guides.
More to the point: Ed is still in the game and always creating more Realmslore, some of which is always about Netheril. He's able to accept the "bad" names and move forward, he's able to insert bits of his vision (original or new recipe) into published Netheril lore. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Mar 2012 16:42:34 |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 17:47:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sorry Jorkens - my comment was biased (against Slade). I have listened to Deep Purple when I was younger (and they were current), but I feel like he has sullied them now. Isn't it weird how your attitudes can change about something, just because of an association to something else?
You need to go listen to In Rock again to clear your head of these thoughts.
And I have to ask then, how is your relationship to the band Slade? |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 17:53:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But however they're assigned, the names are names and they now designate specific things. So published Netheril is different from Ed's Netheril, it's still Netheril and all told (I think) it's pretty good. People discuss mythallars, Karsus, Larloch, and the Shadovar endlessly; even if none of these were created within Ed's original vision of Netheril. If Slade didn't write up Netheril then either we wouldn't have Netheril at all (which would be bad) or Ed would have to write it ... well Ed's always working on writing something, so if he had to write Netheril then he wouldn't written something else (which would also be bad). I don't think I would choose to trade if the price of a "better" (or at least different) Netheril was, say, one of Volo's Guides.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree there. I would rather have no published Netheril. I prefer nothing to something I don't like, as it then at least is open to ones own interpretation. Netheril was a mystical source of magic and wonder that simmered in the back of my mind until that bloody box appeared. I still cant insert the elements into the Realms in my mind. I might not like Ed's version either, but at least that would have an interest for me as a part of the settings historic development. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 18:22:04
|
| If you find the material objectionable then why not simply ignore it? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 19:30:13
|
I do ignore it. And at the same time I have to ignore a huge part of the Realms, as you said, the material has been pretty essential for later developments. I am OK with that, but it keeps me from seeing a lot of speculations from both fans and designers that might be a lot more interesting, in addition to blocking me from hearing Eds original ideas. Thats why I said I would prefer no published Netheril over this version.
Ah, don't mind me. Its just my usual bad tempered grumbling. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 19:48:27
|
Fair enough.
It is, after all, impossible to please all of the people all of the time. Especially over an audience which spans several decades and game editions. This even applies to Ed Greenwood. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 20:52:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Gary Gygax did this A LOT, but it it is an 'inside joke' - more of a homage to his original players. Thats fine. Slade just rubs me the wrong way entirely (mostly by ignoring Ed's Netheril notes almost completely).
-Ugh, Gary Gygax is/was the worst. How many derivatives of 'Gary Gygax' are there? Seven? Eight? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 23:07:20
|
Back in those days characters were just a lot less serious. People generally didn't spend a lot of time building their characters because long odds were stacked against them and the vast majority of characters didn't last long; a fair chunk of the party would die every adventuring session. So characters with silly names like Melf the Elf and backgrounds limited to quick sentences along the lines of "the youngest son of a landless knight" were common and sufficient. If your character survived the low-level culling then you'd begin to add depth beyond mere game mechanics - in some ways this was superior to current methods because your character grew in interesting ways, he was really built more from his most memorable lowbie experiences and what he brought to the table. These days character death is averted as much as possible, largely because many hours and many pages are often invested into characters before they even enter play. It used to be a character sheet, now it's often a character binder thicker than the original D&D rulebooks.
I personally think this is primarily because early D&D (and early RPGs in general) were an evolution of war gaming, where adversarial competition among players was simply designed within the game itself - Players-vs-DM was just the natural progression and dying "with style" was something of a rewarding goal, nobody was really bothered much about it because our current RPG sophistications hadn't yet even been invented. Grognardia has many excellent articles (and a forum) summarizing the attitudes of Gygax-era D&D quite well. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Mar 2012 23:18:01 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 06:05:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I prefer old Netherese names, e.g. City of Shade more than Thulthantar, and other english ones
-I generally use "City of Shade", or "Karsus' Enclave" more than the Netherese 'translations', and only really see problems when people use the two in conjunction- certain places have "basic" names only, while others have "Netherese" names.
I suppose most people do. The English/Common translations are easier to remember. I wonder, though, why some don't have translations at all, and simply retained their Loross names, like Sakkors and Jockteleg. The latter should have been called Quantoul's Enclave. [Could Quantoul's popularity (lesser than most archwizards whose enclaves are known by their names, e.g. Karsus and Ioulaum) have to do with it?] |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 06:29:54
|
Sakkors literally disappeared from the face of Toril after Netheril's Fall, lost and forgotten to Faerūn's historians, then reappeared only through the actions of the Shadovar. It's logical for them to refer to Sakkors by the name that was passed to them through history (in their own language) rather than invent a Common/English name like "New Shade" or "Sunken Enclave", and it's their uncontested property so nobody else is really entitled to name it.
I suppose they might choose to name Jockteleg as Quantoul's Enclave if Quantoul was still around or was an archwizard of particular note. If Jiksidur ever rose to the skies again they might call it Larloch's Enclave. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Mar 2012 06:30:51 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 07:14:28
|
| I was referring to the time before the Fall. Eileanar was also known as Karsus' Enclave, then; and Xinlenal, Ioulaum's Enclave. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 29 Mar 2012 07:15:30 |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 07:18:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Fair enough.
It is, after all, impossible to please all of the people all of the time. Especially over an audience which spans several decades and game editions. This even applies to Ed Greenwood.
And the dumbest thing WotC could do, in my opinion, would be to listen to grumblers like me. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 15:50:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wonder, though, why some don't have translations at all, and simply retained their Loross names, like Sakkors and Jockteleg. The latter should have been called Quantoul's Enclave. [Could Quantoul's popularity (lesser than most archwizards whose enclaves are known by their names, e.g. Karsus and Ioulaum) have to do with it?]
-That is probably simply a metagame shift in naming conventions. The Netheril box set pretty much only uses the "translations", while sources that have been written since- especially in 3e- have gone back and forth between the two (when applicable). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 07:58:07
|
| I like the name Opus, tough that name would fit better for a city of Jhaamdath. |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 10:47:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I like the name Opus...
Now there is a band I personally dislike. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 00:27:42
|
Actually, Jorkens, I have no knowledge of a group called 'Slade', but he was a rather cool (but despicable) villain in the Teen Titans anime series. I picture our Slade like that. I think he finally went to hell... and then came back... you can't keep a good 'bad-guy' down. (something that came up in another thread - its okay when villains do it).
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Gary Gygax did this A LOT, but it it is an 'inside joke' - more of a homage to his original players. Thats fine. Slade just rubs me the wrong way entirely (mostly by ignoring Ed's Netheril notes almost completely).
-Ugh, Gary Gygax is/was the worst. How many derivatives of 'Gary Gygax' are there? Seven? Eight?
Don't EVER bad-mouth Gary Gygax around me. The sandbox we all love and play in - the Realms - is just one place inside of Gary's even bigger sandbox. The man changed the way we play games, and modern computer & console games even owe him a huge debt.
And if you think Gary was such a bad guy, just look up Keoghtom's Ointment (the real history behind the name, and why he created this magical item). IIRC, the story is in the final issue of the real Dragon magazine (I say 'real' because magazines are made of paper - that other thing is just a website). Most of those early names were part of the 'inside joke' between him, Dave Arneson, and his players, and I respect that - they started it all.
It only annoys me when it came later, after D&D matured and became AD&D - then that sort of narcissism/nepotism should have stopped. Its jarring when you are reading an FR/D&D source and come across a RW reference - it degrades the immersion factor. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 01:45:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, Jorkens, I have no knowledge of a group called 'Slade', but he was a rather cool (but despicable) villain in the Teen Titans anime series. I picture our Slade like that. I think he finally went to hell... and then came back... you can't keep a good 'bad-guy' down. (something that came up in another thread - its okay when villains do it).
Deathstroke the Realmsinator?
Oh, Markus, you get points for that.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 15:48:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Don't EVER bad-mouth Gary Gygax around me. The sandbox we all love and play in - the Realms - is just one place inside of Gary's even bigger sandbox. The man changed the way we play games, and modern computer & console games even owe him a huge debt.
And if you think Gary was such a bad guy, just look up Keoghtom's Ointment (the real history behind the name, and why he created this magical item). IIRC, the story is in the final issue of the real Dragon magazine (I say 'real' because magazines are made of paper - that other thing is just a website). Most of those early names were part of the 'inside joke' between him, Dave Arneson, and his players, and I respect that - they started it all.
It only annoys me when it came later, after D&D matured and became AD&D - then that sort of narcissism/nepotism should have stopped. Its jarring when you are reading an FR/D&D source and come across a RW reference - it degrades the immersion factor.
-How does this change the fact that Gary Gygax was the worst in terms of doing what we're discussing? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 11:48:01
|
What Gary did fit the world he was doing it in, Greyhawk. Anagrams and puns fitted naturally in to that world, as the "Real world" elements fitted Known World/Mystara. And because of that I don't think Gary's style was ever a problem unless you took the whole thing far to seriously. The Netheril references here didn't fit the world or the product they were included in at all.
All of this in my always humble opinion of course. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 20:07:29
|
Aye, many adventurers in original D&D fell to gibbering populations of endlessly anagrammed punishments which inhabited Kraywheg and other worlds. I personally think it's just part of the unofficial inexplicable weirdness that is D&D, an unwritten Monty Python rule, in fact it's something that later game editions gradually lost with each translation away from the High Gygaxian tongue spoken by their elders.
So it's no surprise to me that a few 2E products feebly attempted to mimic the Old Ways, especially during those wildly vacillating times preceding the long Dark Age. If that means sneaking in some awful half-hidden references to mundane groaners then so be it ... most DMs of the Gygax era, true to their nerdly wargaming pedigree, were masters of this dark art. Most DMs of following generations lost these skills, they could still be bad but only very badly. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 22:18:25
|
| -The worst was when, in a game I was in, we were betrayed by a woman who we had befriended going into a dungeon, or abandoned cave, or whatever it was, named Nogardama. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 23:55:01
|
| Steve, if that's the worst you had to endure then you got off pretty lucky, my DMs and players are relentlessly punny. I suppose some of the most prominent names in the game have anagrammed, punned, or downright dull name inspirations and minor homages ... Mordenkainen = Minion Drake? Elminster = Ed's Minister? Krashos Morueme = Grandmaster George, etc. The names in Netheril are really no better or worse than any other, being based off old bands doesn't really change Netheril in any way, at least Slade didn't name the Pun-Pun Scrolls. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Origin of names from Netheril Arcane Age boxed set
