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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 17:38:29
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So a character dies, he might even be dead for a long time, sometimes there's a timejump, yet he somehow returns. Honey, I'm back from the dead. Nothing new in the Realms.
Sometimes "back from the dead" exacts some terrible price, the character is somehow changed, he's alive, he might even look and act perfectly normal, but he is no longer really part of the normal living population and there's something under the surface which hints at the difference. This, too, is nothing new in the Realms.
We see this often with Villains. They come back from the dead even badder then ever before, often very angry at the Hero who killed them ... and now they have a new magical superpower, or they are driven by a manic infusion of insanity, or they return with some secret knowledge impossible for the living to ever learn. Perhaps they made terrible pacts with some netherfiend on the Other Side, perhaps they're just competent (or angry) enough to successfully defy the cosmic order and battle their own way back to life. Cool story, bro.
What bothers me is that we don't see this with Heroes. Typically, a Hero gets resurrected and - after a short period of disorientation, sadness over lost loves, and kickstarted self-discovery - his indomitable goodness is reignited and off he goes marching into the nearest tavern looking for something evil to kill. Sometimes he gets sidetracked by nostalgia (indeed, this tactic often gets him a new Love Interest), sometimes he needs some extra motivation (by learning the Villain somehow betrayed/killed some loved one long ago), but he's otherwise just as Heroically unfaltering and narrowminded as he always was before death.
The Villain is always somehow transformed into something less-than-human, or more-than-human, superhuman, inhuman, subhuman, monstrous. However, the Hero is always unchanged, indeed his gleaming hair remains untouched and he's still wearing the same shirt and shoes. Sometimes, rarely, the Hero has some minor scar or strange mark inconspicuously branded onto his flesh which serves only as a motivational reminder to stick to the plot whenever he begins to lose hope.
What we do see are things like Revenants. The Hero is back from the dead, and maybe he's even still a bit of a nice guy once you look past the emo creepiness, but really the only thing motivating his existence is some form of vengeance, retribution, justice, punishment, murder. Killing Villains is always the Heroic thing to do, but the Hero-Revenant is grimly disinterested in anything else. Quite often he cannot return to the death he himself yearns until he pays the price of another's blood. In short, death has turned the Hero into another variety of monster or Villain. Revenants are part of Realmslore.
Imagine a recently resurrected and perhaps damaged Manshoon clone, confused and vulnerable, taken into a nearby monastery dedicated to Eldath. He might eventually learn his original identity yet remain Brother Unshoon of the Singing Chalice, he might devote his life towards peaceful tranquility, selflessly calming waves of evil disturbance, he might even have a great singing voice and gift for soothing fearful small children. But this is the sort of thing we'll never see in Realmslore.
Why is this the case? Somehow it seems to me that the validity of the setting suffers whenever Heroes and Villains are judged with different standards. And there is no harsher judgement than death and one's station in the life which follows.
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[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Mar 2012 17:56:08
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 18:07:14
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The 'redemption' of a villain after he/she returns to life would make an interesting story that I'd gladly read. The reason it seldom happens, IMO, is that the point of a villain is to be hated and despised for his/her actions, and an understanding, a change of behavior on his/her side would make some sort of heroic character of him/her, defeating the character's original purpose.
The hero becoming darker after a resurrection, on the other hand, would be justified (even though I don't like it) because of the suffering and losses he/she had to suffer by enemies' hand.
This is how I see it, however I agree with you that this kind of distinction takes potential depth away from the setting.
Personally, however, I wouldn't kill characters (not to mention deities...) at all, villains and heroes alike, if they and their struggles added depth to the setting. I would just 'direct the spotlights on other ones' if some of them became overused, only to use them again when the right opportunity arises.
If I wanted to kill off a character, I'd do it so that he/she died in a fitting way (and not pointlessly), accomplishing his/her goal, or at least scoring a *major* success towards it and possibly adding some kind of 'happy ending' (like Khelben being granted access to Arvandor). This way his/her story would be complete and there would be no need to bring him/her back, thus solving the problem you pointed out. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Mar 2012 18:15:35 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 18:29:00
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Agreed, it's really something about where the story spotlights are shining.
There are melodramatic tales, where the roles of Hero, Villain, and Victim are all well-defined and remain firmly static. There are dramatic tales, which explore the possibilities and consequences of the characters switching roles and blurring these definitions in a more dynamic sense. And our entertainment demands have grown sophisticated enough to expect Dark Heroes and Anti-Heroes galore.
I just cannot recall any Realmslore wherein a Villain is actually reborn as a Hero, whether he chooses to be a valiant champion or simply try to lead a happily anonymous life of little consequence. I personally think the possibility shouldn't be excluded since we know of Heroes who've turned into Villains and monsters.
Sure we know of a few good-aligned undead sorts, special liches and ghosts and vampires. But, like the revenant, these are really more just special monster template varieties with predetermined behaviours, slightly anomalous yet nothing really special. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 18:39:26
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In a way, wouldn't the story of Alias (of Alias and Dragonbait) be a kind of redemption? I don't think I'm giving away any spoilers by revealing that Alias was a clone, and she lives out a very different and good life compared to her original. It was one of the reasons I liked that story, actually.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 19:08:11
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Wasn't Semmenonmemnonmonmmonemon.. whatever... redeemed, in a way? And his main squeeze (can't be bothered to look up her name)?
That was one of the stand-out parts of an already excellent book (Blackstaff)
I think, because FR is a D&D setting, villains will always remain villains... mostly. On the other hand, going the other route can get way out of hand as well (the sheer number of 'baddies' Spiderman has 'turned good' is idiotic, IMO). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 19:42:26
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Cassana had no intention of changing her ways, she created Alias to serve as a disposable tool and vessel. Alias seems more like a progeny, the (disobedient) daughter of a villainous mother.
I suppose one might argue that Cyric was redeemed (even symbolically killed and reborn) by the concluding events in Prince of Lies. Although subsequent events proved that Cyric certainly didn't change his ways much for the better.
So strange that true Villains never serve as martyrs. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12096 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 20:01:56
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| What you point out would make for a decent plot point, whenever the Brother Unshoon is discovered by the "heroes" who just can't accept that he isn't evil. Maybe they misinterpret something he did in a more sinister light(for instance, maybe someone is murdered, and they blame Brother Unshoon)... maybe they even end up killing him without covering all their bases, because obviously they know its him ("what are you waiting for, we all know it's him")... only to end up realizing that they themselves have become the villains as a result. Then the reveal that the actual murderer had set it all up, just so that he could tarnish the reputation of the heroes in the eyes of the populace, maybe get them thrown into prison, etc..... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 00:14:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Wasn't Semmenonmemnonmonmmonemon.. whatever... redeemed, in a way? And his main squeeze (can't be bothered to look up her name)?
That was one of the stand-out parts of an already excellent book (Blackstaff)
-Sememmon and Ashemmi, yes. More of their "redemption" can also be seen in Thornhold, involving Bronywn. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 01:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I personally think the possibility shouldn't be excluded since we know of Heroes who've turned into Villains and monsters.
Because most FR villains, or at least those that get more novel time, are more shady than evil. They're some sort of heroes at one instant, then villains the next. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 23:40:04
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Well, I think it's all a question of perspective: everyone is the hero of his or her own story, whether the rest of the world sees that person as a hero, villain, or victim.
I find that my writing has a lot to say about redemption and the like. My heroes are inevitably damaged, often through their own actions, and they have to transcend their limitations and often harsh perspectives in order to do the right thing. Which I think is just as (if not more) heroic than the good guy who's just born good, never wavers from being good, and defeats the bad guy.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 23:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, I think it's all a question of perspective: everyone is the hero of his or her own story, whether the rest of the world sees that person as a hero, villain, or victim.
I find that my writing has a lot to say about redemption and the like. My heroes are inevitably damaged, often through their own actions, and they have to transcend their limitations and often harsh perspectives in order to do the right thing. Which I think is just as (if not more) heroic than the good guy who's just born good, never wavers from being good, and defeats the bad guy.
Cheers
I agree entirely... most of my favourite heroes in fantasy are more like antiheroes... Elric, many of Gene Wolfe's protagonists, and Conan, to name just a pair... 
Edit: Oh, and in the homebrew 3.5 campaign I'm currently playing in, my character is drifting toward antihero status. He's a paladin of the LN goddess of death (who has paladins of all lawful alignments), currently LG, but likely to officially change to LN after events described below, who has been excommunicated from his church for his belief that not all necromantic magic is evil, despite demonstrating at his trial that his goddess is not so narrow-minded (he still has his paladin abilities). Just last session, we finished playing through Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and after dispatching Strahd with decapitation, garlic, holy water, and incineration, was slain by the guardian construct. He was returned to life by his goddess, who informed him that his work was not yet complete. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 27 Mar 2012 00:11:22 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 00:05:44
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I think the difference is in the why of the return from death. A hero comes back to do some great deed or finish some worthy task left unaccomplished -- goals that any goodly folk and most neutral types would find laudable.
Villains, on the other hand, come back for negative reasons: vengeance, greed, pact with dark forces...
So the hero doesn't suffer as much because he came back for the "right" reasons, while the villain is tainted by whatever evil enabled their return. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 00:22:23
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I'm sure your Unshoon examples exist throughout the Realms, just haven't been in the spotlight, but do they need to be redeemed? A good read of Ed's fiction will show you a slew of characters that are, for all intents and purposes, "evil" but are individuals in their own right with the capacity to love, befriend and be kind (where it suits them).
Many of the great "evil" people in history have been wonderful family men/woman, or pet lovers or patrons of the arts, etc. The Realms is no different in that regard. It contains real, imaginary people.:)
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 23:59:05
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It's unclear, but it's possible that the former Overwizard of the Northern Spire of the Hosttower of the Arcane, Morkai the Red (The Crystal Shard), may have originally been quite an evil fellow, but may have turned somewhat goodly after death.
It's true that he was described as having been the only one to ever treat the apprentice Akar Kessell humanely (The Crystal Shard). But he was still an overwizard of the Arcane Brotherhood, after all. And he had never been described as having been altruistic (Streams of Silver).
After he was murdered, his former subordinate-turned-successor Dendybar the Mottled summoned his spirit to gather information during several missions (Streams of Silver). Morkai's spirit greatly resented having been offed, and being forced to serve a former subordinate, so he resisted at every turn.
As a result, Morkai's spirit defied the magical compulsion to blindly serve his summoner Dendybar, and instead secretly helped the goodly Companions of the Hall to evade capture by Dendybar's living minions through misinformation and subterfuge in is compelled reports to the summoner (Streams of Silver).
And when Dendybar's magical hold over the specter had grown taxed enough, Morkai actively rebelled against the mage and used his own flesh golem to kill the summoner (Streams of Silver).
We are later told that Morkai's spirit helped fill Lady Alustriel in on the whereabouts of the Companions of the Hall in The Halfling's Gem. But it is unclear whether this was a purely voluntary gift of info, or if it was compelled by an Alustriel summons.
It is difficult to say whether Morkai's spirit had changed in alignment or morality, or if he was just sticking it to his rival. But it's something to consider. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 11:34:55
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| Well even villains hardly ever think of themselves as truly evil. Yes there are expections but they are generally not villains that are especially popular or powerful. I doubt Telamont thinks of his actions as evil, he is merely restoring the glory of Netheril and bringing order to the realms and to use a non realms example, Emperor Palpatine did not think he was evil, ruthless certainly but he viewed his actions as necessary to bring peace and order to the galaxy even as his forces destroyed entire worlds and persecuted alien species. |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
233 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 13:08:33
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| There is no such thing as evil. |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 15:41:25
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| -Magadon, the Psion character in the Erevis Cale books, was killed (or close enough to death, having his soul rendered, torn, and generally messed up). While he wasn't exactly a shining beacon of light before hand, when he was fully restored, he seemingly bore the 'scars' of what happened to him, and seemed to be inherently changed to a degree. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12096 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 20:42:18
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Many of the great "evil" people in history have been wonderful family men/woman, or pet lovers or patrons of the arts, etc. The Realms is no different in that regard. It contains real, imaginary people.:)
-- George Krashos
Yeah, I heard that Zulkir Nevron was very fond of loving the pets he summoned, especially the succubi.  |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 22:50:05
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| Well, I agree that "evil" is somewhat dependant on relative moral context. Yet, there are certain hallmarks - murder, rape, torture, cruelty, etc - which "evil" characters perform far more readily and more often than "good" characters. Classic villains do all these sorts of things as a matter of course; they exploit and manipulate the weaknesses of others for their own gain, they don't care what the price is because others are paying it, and they don't lose any sleep. Heroes never do these things, they can hardly even conceive them and are often outraged such crimes exist, if and when they do resort to such practices it's only as a desperate last resort (often following the advice of minor villains). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 06:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Many of the great "evil" people in history have been wonderful family men/woman, or pet lovers or patrons of the arts, etc. The Realms is no different in that regard. It contains real, imaginary people.:)
-- George Krashos
Yeah, I heard that Zulkir Nevron was very fond of loving the pets he summoned, especially the succubi.
If inflicting them with severe pain at his whim is love, then yes. 
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Magadon, the Psion character in the Erevis Cale books, was killed (or close enough to death, having his soul rendered, torn, and generally messed up). While he wasn't exactly a shining beacon of light before hand, when he was fully restored, he seemingly bore the 'scars' of what happened to him, and seemed to be inherently changed to a degree.
Indeed. Specially when the man who risked everything to save him died because of him... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 31 May 2012 07:30:45 |
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Back from the dead
