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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 18:29:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not to 'step on toes' or anything, but I have always assumed that the names in the Netheril box were translations into common/English for our benefit.
And hopefully (hint hint), someday someone will write an article about 'ancient Netheril' and we could get some of the Netherese names (UNtranslated).
I have to admit, this has been one of my fondest wishes for quite some time (since I found out where those names really came from). Maybe 5e can fix this? PLEEEEEEASE?
I'm curious now... where are these names from? I know that other published Netheril lore was brought in from another IP, but I don't recall which... can Mark or anyone else help out here? Many thanks.
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Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 07:16:48
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As far as I'm aware, ancient Netheril (in somewhat vague and generic terms) was always part of Ed's conception of the Realms from the outset. Arcane Age: Netheril was the first canon published by TSR/WotC, and though it was written by other authors it does credit special thanks to Ed - I'd be surprised if Ed and his material weren't frequently consulted during development. Much subsequent lore about Netheril has been written by Ed and others, and has primarily been based on this Arcane Age material.
If this is correct then the names could've been invented by Ed and by any number of other authors. Thultanthar and Shadovar are likely not created by Ed. Proper names (like Nether, Karsus, Ioulaum) are just proper names, they wouldn't be substantially altered when spoken/written in other languages, outside of the usual quirks of translation which might adapt/change spellings and such. What we call "Karsus's Enclave" is probably translated from the Netherese version of "Karsus's Enclave" - "Karsus" is still Karsus, while "Enclave" is just a Common (English) word chosen to mean the same thing as the equivalent term in Loross. Names such as "Arctic Rim" and "The Backwash" are based on descriptive terms, so the Common translations likely mean the same (or at least similar) things to the original Loross terms, even though they may sound entirely different. Some names are known to have changed; what the Netherese named "Ascalhorn" is mostly known to the modern Realms as "Hellgate Keep".
Netherese names were probably often influenced or adapted from those devised in other languages contemporary to the period and region. Elven, dwarven, and draconic languages in particular are thought to have remained largely unchanged over the ages, so it's not unreasonable to claim that ancient names crafted from these tongues have also remained largely unchanged. Also consider that in the Realms, most maps and stories about these ancient places wouldn't be widely known, they would be studied by historians and scholars obsessed with preferring technically "authentic" names. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Mar 2012 09:45:47 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 10:02:26
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| I don't know how close the Netheril box is too Eds version (I have always hoped that it is very, very different), but I doubt the original villages of Netheril were originally named after members of Gillan and the Ian Gillan Band. And Karsus was from Jaquays DragonQuest module The Enchanted Wood if I remember correctly. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 11:10:48
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Thultanthar = Loross
Shade Enclave = Common/English
Same goes to the names of the rest of the enclaves. The proper names in Loross might be difficult to pronounce or remember by non-Netherese folks, hence the translations. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 12:13:50
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I have Ed's 7 page outline he provided to TSR in the lead up to the publishing of the Netheril boxed set. Slade did use some of it, ignored much of it, placed significant and product-defining emphasis on very small parts of it (Ed's single sentence on anything that could be described as what we now know as enclaves was "including the means of keeping castles aloft in the sky!" when discussing the magic of the realm). Ed's lengthy paragraph on what he called enclaves was ignored.
The outline is broad, with no real realmslore specifics, but provides references to many things that certainly would have made a very different product in the hands of someone like a Steven Schend or Eric Boyd. There are no specific references to people or places, so the "name" issue doesn't arise out of Ed's notes.
I have to say that I have long disliked the names Slade used for the people and places of Netheril. I always considered them to be distinctly un-Realmsian to my particular tastes. YMMV. As such, "back in the day", most noticeably in 'Lost Empires of Faerun', Eric Boyd and I did our best to realmsify the names, using the "the boxed set gives the Common translation names, here are the names in Netherese' -angle to do so. Ed has also done so in some of his Netheril musings here at the Keep.
I've always longed to go back and do the history of Netheril "properly". The skeleton provided by Slade (and it is just that) is eminently fixable and with it comes an opportunity to fill holes and expand on issues that have been given short shrift so far in the published Realms regarding that fabled land. I should probably try an "age" at a time. Just got to find some of that spare time thingy ...
One small realmslore tidbit that the outline contained which I'm sure Ed won't mind me passing on was a reference to the oldest known surviving human spellbook - Uouruen's Tome "whose sheets are polished stone". Always wondered about that one ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 18:19:16
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| Too bad that outline can't be shared... That's another of those bits of original material I'd love to see. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 01:30:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Too bad that outline can't be shared... That's another of those bits of original material I'd love to see.
Agreed.
I've been thinking a lot about Ed's original Netheril for my Realms lately. It would be handy having this info on hand so I could work out some problematic areas I'm having with meeting Ed's lore and my own. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 02:01:49
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Ayrik, I'm pretty sure "Thultanthar" is an Ed name, and I KNOW "Ascalhorn" is, because it was on the photocopy of his original map that I saw at GenCon once (Julia Martin brought it to show at Ed's roast).
George, can you tell us more?
Puh-LEEEEZE?
BB
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 14:43:28
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Tell you more about what?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 20:07:31
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No-one bothered to answer Jakk's question.
They are all names taken from songs of some craptastic band Slade was a fan (or member) of. I can't be bothered looking it up - someone here HAS TO know - George? Sage? Anyone?
@Lk - of course it would be weird to translate 'proper names' of things, but thats the only recourse we have in fixing those horrific names created by a master egoist (He used his own name in several other TSR products, but backwards - Elad Edals - he was the 'Rambo'-like NPC).  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Mar 2012 22:37:53 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 21:40:57
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| Wasn't it Deep Purple? I seem to recall seeing that one mentioned before... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 21:50:26
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George, any more city names under the ice?
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 23:49:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Lk - of course it would be weird to translate 'proper names' of things, but thats the only recourse we have in fixing those horrific names created by a master egoist (He used his own name in several other TSR products, but backwards - Elad Edals - he was the 'Rambo'-like NPC).
-When I first read the title of the discussion, I thought it was meaning names, as in people's names. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 23 Mar 2012 23:50:09 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 01:09:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No-one bothered to answer Jakk's question.
They are all names taken from songs of some craptastic band Slade was a fan (or member) of. I can't be bothered looking it up - somewhere here HAS TO know - George? Sage? Anyone?
I'm thinking it might indeed be Deep Purple, as Wooly suggested above.
I'll have to check the archives to be sure, though. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 10:09:51
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
George, any more city names under the ice?
All of the extant enclave names of Netheril were included and translated in LEoF. Only Ed would know of more.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 22:44:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No-one bothered to answer Jakk's question.
They are all names taken from songs of some craptastic band Slade was a fan (or member) of. I can't be bothered looking it up - somewhere here HAS TO know - George? Sage? Anyone?
I'm thinking it might indeed be Deep Purple, as Wooly suggested above.
I'll have to check the archives to be sure, though.
There was a simple way to check - I just wiki'd 'Deep Purple Songs'.
None of them looks familiar. I can't recall the name of the band, but I do recall it was a band I either never heard of, or barely heard of, which means it wouldn't be an 'A-lister' like Deep Purple (I'm fairly familiar with many song titles from many genres - I used to do 'background music' for restaurants - and none of those Netherese names rings a bell, so it must be a VERY eclectic band).
The names sound a bit 'New Age' (and I have no familiarity with that genre, beyond a couple of pieces and artists) - anyone here a fan of that stuff? If I had the damn box still, I'd just take a random selection of names and Google them.
Edit: Just tried that trick - no good. I think it may be more then titles - it may be in the lyrics themselves. Gensis came up for two different ones, but I think that was a coincidence (still trying to figure out how search took me from 'Dagger's Point', to [i]The Knife[i], when "Dagger's Point" appears nowhere in the song or title). 
I tried all the ones that looked the most like song titles, but to no avail. Hopefully Sage will be able to dig-up that bit of FR trivia. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Mar 2012 23:14:01 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 15:24:45
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| To me, most of the names of the people in Netheril boxed set are RL names. There's even a Polish name in there! |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 15:52:54
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I believe it was only in reference to the enclaves (both aloft and grounded), but I could be mistaken.
As for the slavic-sounding names... just more proof that the original Netherese (Seventon) tribesmen migrated from the east, and are distantly related to the Gur of the Taan.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 20:00:03
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| I gave the answer above. Members of ex-Deep Purple singer Ian Gillans later bands Ian Gillan band and Gillan. And just so it has been said Markus; Im a huge Ian Gillan fan, so the craptastic comment is a challenge that could get ugly. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 20:13:50
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I looked up Deep Purple and Ian Gillan Band, it turns out I've heard performances from each, some I like, some I don't.
But looking into the names of the bands, names of band members (and there were many prior to 1996), album titles, song titles, and even a few lyrics ... I don't see any real correlation between them and the names appearing in Netheril. Why were they even mentioned? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 02:16:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I looked up Deep Purple and Ian Gillan Band, it turns out I've heard performances from each, some I like, some I don't.
But looking into the names of the bands, names of band members (and there were many prior to 1996), album titles, song titles, and even a few lyrics ... I don't see any real correlation between them and the names appearing in Netheril. Why were they even mentioned?
That answer's already been given above as well... the author liked the band, and decided their names belonged in his FR product, regardless of any other lack of connection.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 02:20:59
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Oh, and thanks to all contributors for doing my Internet research for me.  Mind you, I didn't have the starting point, without which any search engine is completely useless.  And Jorkens, I also like Deep Purple, but the Ian Gillan Black Sabbath years were a horrid, awful mistake... imho, of course. Thank the gods they only recorded one studio album. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 04:45:50
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| Which Netherese names were taken from the bands then? Specific examples, please. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 04:54:58
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Seriously? Bands? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 04:59:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I looked up Deep Purple and Ian Gillan Band, it turns out I've heard performances from each, some I like, some I don't.
But looking into the names of the bands, names of band members (and there were many prior to 1996), album titles, song titles, and even a few lyrics ... I don't see any real correlation between them and the names appearing in Netheril. Why were they even mentioned?
They were mentioned because I've seen numerous comments in the past saying the names came from Deep Purple. And that was what I said, that I'd seen people say that before.
I've never listened to them and I'm not familiar with them, so I can't say whether or not there's any truth to it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 05:03:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Seriously? Bands?
*shrugs* People get inspiration from weird places, sometimes. Me, if given the option to design anything in a shared world setting, I'd prolly find a way to work in some of my own likes and such.
I couldn't do it with bands, though. It'd be really hard to work in a reference to Flogging Molly, Weird Al, or the Presidents. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 05:10:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I couldn't do it with bands, though. It'd be really hard to work in a reference to Flogging Molly, Weird Al, or the Presidents.
I couldn't (and wouldn't), either. My likes often show in my writing. But bands as names of places? Nah... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 26 Mar 2012 05:10:56 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 05:18:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Seriously? Bands?
What's wrong with that? You'd be surprised where I often find inspiration for stuff in either my Realms, or my own writings.
Just the other day I rediscovered a single sentence in the English translation of Mahler's Kindertotenlieder, that provided a well-spring of new ideas that I could incorporate into my work on Zhoth'ilam. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 05:21:49
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Bands are a perfectly fine source of inspiration. They can inspire creative technologies so why not creative writing?
I'd still like some actual examples, a list of Netherese names correlated with these (or any) bands. Otherwise it's just hearsay. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Origin of names from Netheril Arcane Age boxed set
