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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 19:29:49
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In 1360, when the Horde threatens Cormyr and its neighboring states, Azoun strikes a pact with the Zhents, not to disturb their activities west of the stormhorns.
I was wondering if the royal mage, being pragmatic, or even a "secret police" would go as far as to strike an equivalent deal with golbinoid tribes, to indirectly support them in activities vs zhents - of course azoun would not know about this officially.
It couldbe done so that the goblinoids disturb the zhents from really building a powerbase in the stonelands, much stronger than before for they could act openly without fearing the purple dragons etc.
I was just wondering if such a "deal" was thinkable.
Looking forward to an interesting exchange of minds ;)
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 22:58:30
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| I suspect that Vangerdahast would not be above opportunistically "using" or manipulating any resource which might strengthen Cormyr, even resources like armies of Zhents and goblinoids. Vangy's a rather utilitarian and pragmatic fellow, to him the ultimate ends justify (almost) any means. Having said that, I'm sure he would be hesitant to inform the Crown of his more distasteful methodologies. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 23:24:39
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Theoretically, yes, but considerning that the major Zhent activities in the region consist of supporting goblinoids in their raiding against Cormyr and allies, a bit self-defeating.
Cormyr would like to see the goblionoids of the Stonelands, Goblin Marches, Tunlands and the mountain ranges exterminated. The major factor preventing them from doing so, apart from the difficult terrain, is the covert support that most of the tribes enjoy from Zhentil Keep.*
Without some way to ensure the loyalty of the tribe in question, any help, official and unofficial, provided to a grop of goblinoids anywhere near Cormyr will prove much more injurous to Cormyr in the long-term than it would be for Zhentil Keep or Darkhold.
Cormyr depends on normal citizens being able to travel for trade and farm undisturbed. Darkhold is a fortress and beyond requisitioning food from the neighbouring peasants, has no special interest in their well-being. Zhentil Keep, meanwhile, is seperated from any tribes in the Stonelands or the mountain ranges of Cormyr, by a lot of distance and forest, inhabited by forces not allied with Zhentil Keep.
They could care less about raiding goblinoids in the area. There aren't even any Zhent caravan routes that cross these regions, not unless they are bringing weapons to goblinoids to use against Cormyr.
*And historically, have sometimes enjoyed from other opportunistic evil groups, like the mage who founded Hlundadim and in days past, more organised goblinoids, among them powerful shamans, living in Thar. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 10 Mar 2012 23:28:21 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 08:27:11
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@ayrik - exactly what I said / thought. Vandergahast is quite pragmatic and goal-orientated. aZOUN FOR SURE WOULD GO CRAZY if he heard about such plans.
It was hard enough for him to "ally" with the zhents in darkhold to raise their support vs the horde....
@ icelander:
I had played this as being part of my campaign with goblinoids in this region. Here comes into play, that the goblinoids themselves have two distinct power groups there: The Melial of the Skull Gorge, who would likely be ready to do anything to counter zhent influence in a not all too direct way, and the Neidlig-tribe. Being the strongest tribe there, they would / could also see the zhents more problematic than cormyr - cormyr is there for centuries and has not made any real effort to subdue them, but the zhents are much more nasty, bribing goblinoid tribes to fight each other, or subdue them completely to their cause....
being evil, the zhents have many more options, which are less costly than cormyrs noble goals...
In my campaign, this was one of the main plots the group around "tithulka" formed, i have put some pars of it in the adventuring forum here already.
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 09:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
They could care less about raiding goblinoids in the area. There aren't even any Zhent caravan routes that cross these regions, not unless they are bringing weapons to goblinoids to use against Cormyr.
Actually the Zhentarim do ship goods via the Stonelands and also skirt them when trading into Cormyr. The 'Long Road', the Zhent trading route from Zhentil Keep to the Sword Coast, is detailed in polyhedron 84
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 15:32:18
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I thought the Zhentarim moved goods to the Sword Coast through Aunaroch.
Looking at a map, it would seem much more economical to ship goods over the Moonsea, down the Lis and then by the Dragon Reach Coast and into the Dragonmere, landing them in Proskur before starting the caravan route.
Remember, the shipping costs per mile are the greatest for land, about 1/8th of it by river and 1/64th by sea. So it's worth taking quite a long way round if you can do it by water. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:23:42
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Aye they do want a shortcut route across the Anauroch, but as ever Ed has thought about this the article is well worth a read as he discusses the problems they face with the 'easy route' (dust storms, meddling harpers, monsters and bandits etc), plus the vast costs of setting up a series of waystations and guards at those stations (something that was also touched upon on the Anauroch supplement by Ed).
Obviously if they can completely secure the route with no threats then costs fall as they don't need to employ lots of guards and wizards, so thats where those pesky adventurers come into play, just poke the Zhentarim nest and see their gold fall into the adventuers hands 
BTW the magazine can be found on ebay et al for about $5 a piece and as a PDF on Paizo for $3
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 08:28:08
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As faras I know, they use all different manners of secret routes, and willingly take high costings since many of the products they ship are illegal like slaves, drugs, poison etc.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 19:10:59
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Vangerdehast strikes me as a 'humanist', almost to the point of being racist. I could be dead-wrong, though.
He certainly doesn't strike me as the type to make deals with goblins (He hated the Orcs in Azoun's army).
Edit: (and Homebrew)
What little I did with Gwarch (now a canon local) - that its an independent goblinoid trading-post - has Cormyr leaning towards dealing better with humanoids (along with a homebrew law I wrote somewhere, regarding the rights of non-humans within Cormyr). Cormyr CANNOT lay claim to Gwarch, because it would be immediately obliterated by the Shades, and it is far more useful to it in it's current state. There are purple dragon patrols all around it, however, to make sure it retains its 'independent' status.
Its like the town of Crossroads in the WoW setting, rolled together with a bit of a 'Mos Eisley' vibe - anyone from nearly any race can be found making deals there, and you have many, many covert agents placed there as well (Harpers, Zhents, High Knights, Thayans, Kraken Society, several trading costers, and not a few disenfranchised Netherese as well).
Its a carvansari, waystop, supply depot, and cesspit. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2012 19:37:58 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 22:10:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I thought the Zhentarim moved goods to the Sword Coast through Aunaroch.
-Might have been reversed or minimized, since it was written a long time ago, but the events of the novel The Parched Sea kind of put a cramp on Zhent caravans though the Anauroch. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 08:45:02
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| puuhh, can anyone really keep up with all the thigns written in these new novels?? |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 13:29:17
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Aye parched sea was the first of the Harper Series of books and am sure the Zhents haven't stopped trying to ship via the Anuaroch because of a few meddling harpers and bedine as it is the shorter route.
If nothing else the Zhents are stubborn and will continue to work at stuff regardless of opposition, so routes across the Anauroch will be used by the Zhents, its just whether they are easier/securer/cheaper than the long road via the Stonelands.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 13:31:38
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but I think in the rumours section of elminsters ecologies he stated also, that the zhents are building a huge underground base in the stonelands, with currently unknown purpose, that couldbe the reasons why they are so interested in the region despite the negativeness compared to anauroch.
do they use the former dwarven ruins underneath there? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 17:30:25
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According to what I've read, the Zhentarim are interested in areas like the Stonelands because of the tribes of humanoids, not despite of them.
I wasn't doubting that Zhent caravans travelled the Stonelands. I noted that those that did were there to trade with the humanoids. They sell them arms, give them information about the travel times and cargo of caravans from rivals, evangelise about evil gods (Bhaal, Bane, Cyric, etc.; Bane exclusively now for the orthodox ones) and generally have an allegiance of mutual benefit with them.
From what I can see, the Cormyreans do not have anything to offer which would cause the humanoid tribes to prefer them over the Zhents. They are less likely to be willing to arm the tribes, even less likely than that to be willing to allow them to attack everyone not wearing their colours and to provide them with help in the form of information, and the fact that Cormyr is much nearer the Stonelands than Zhentil Keep is means that as the tribes get more powerful, they are a more present threat for Cormyr than Zhentil Keep. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 17:37:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
I was just wondering if such a "deal" was thinkable.
Not sure that it would be.
Cormyr has pushed hard recently for someone to establish a fortress in the Stonelands and bring it under heel. I can’t see a would-be Baron of the Stonelands not butting heads with goblins and worse.
I could see Cormyr working out a temporary deal with the goblins of Grodd, so long as both Grodd and Cormyr viewed the Zhentarim (and the Shadovar) as a common enemy.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 15:18:21
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My spin with Gwarch was that those goblins wanted to avoid being controlled by the Zhentarrim, who were working toward getting all those humanoids (and other monsters) under their control, but have them operating as 'bandits' still, to avoid Cormyrian retribution.
By becoming a 'neutral zone', any one party who tried to seize control of Gwarch would be attacked by all other parties concerned (which are MANY).
And, of course, there are the 'Blues' who are the elders of the Teerac-on-the-Lake goblins, who will use their mental powers to discreetly 'restore order' (and there are the bugbears as well - there is more to the town beneath the surface then above).
The outpost serves the same purpose for Comyr as Skullport serves for Waterdeep - it keeps all the skullduggery in one, neat place. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Mar 2012 20:19:58 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 15:33:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And, of course, there are the 'Blues' who are the elders of the Teerac-on-the-Lake goblins, who will use their mental powers to discreetly 'restore order' (and there are the bugbears as well - there is more to the town beneath the surface then above).
I like this. Is Teerac-on-the-Lake all homebrew or did you draw from an extant source? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 18:23:05
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@jeremy,
no I think Markus refers to the entry about them in "elminster's ecologies", which states that they live extremely long for goblins ( well even for humans, for osme of them are well over 100 years old ) and have found a big tribe of bugbears in the underdark beneath their island in the lake they live upon.
They are one of the four big "factions", them, the Melial, the Fenlis and the Neidlig are the most powerful goblinoid tribes there.
@markus please correct me if I am wrong |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 19:30:17
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| Ah thanks, Jakuta. I've got that Ecologies set in my house somewhere...need to find it after work and have a read through. This thread's got me thinking about the Goblin Marches again... |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 20:22:57
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YES! GOAL ACHIEVED!!!
No seriously, goblin marches and stonelands is - as some mgith have noticed - my deep "fetish" of the realms.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 17:41:17
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If you don't mind me asking, Jakuta, have you thought about the goblins of Grodd and what their motivations/goals/actions might be after the war in Cormyr?
I can't help but think they'll use Grodd as a base from which to expand and explore the remnants of the Goblin Marches. (Their ancestral homeland?) |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 17:43:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
puuhh, can anyone really keep up with all the thigns written in these new novels??
-Yes, but that one was written a long, long time ago (1991).
True, but since then, I've read both novels and short stories with Zhentarim activity in Aunaroch.
I figured that the Parched Sea didn't really change much at all, except at the scale of a few individual Zhents and Bedine. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2012 : 06:32:18
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| @icelander: thought about it, yes but the grodd goblins are so alien in behavior to the residental goblinoid races that they will not make thi sattempt, they rather consider them as "barbarians" imho. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2012 : 19:51:51
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I guess I take more of an expansionist view of the goblins of Grodd.
I agree that the goblin race as it exists north of Cormyr is something the Grodd goblins would view as barbaric, even backward, but I think the goblins of Grodd would find this state of affairs unpalatable; something in real need of changing, with the militaristic Groddians(?) the perfect individuals to bring about this change. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Cormyr collaborating with Goblinoids vs Zhents?
