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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 15:39:52
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Taken from 2e Savage frontier, Page 14 :
Spine of the World Orcs: In these bleak mountains, the most
powerful orc tribes skulk in stone fortresses stolen from the
dwarves and renamed Eyegad, Tame, and Vokan. Within their
gloomy, squat buildings and oppressive, black temples are the
visible tips of sprawling underground tunnels and cavern complexes
that house tribes with names like Skortchclaw,
Skreetch, and Bleeding Eye. Others, like the Slashers and
Orcs of the Severed Tongue, lurk in the unnumbered small
caves that pepper the valleys and passes of these mineral-rich
mountains.
The Skortchclaw tribe, under King Ugra Ngarl, is forcing
goblin slaves to mine mithral beneath Fortress Eyegad. The
metal is apparently being sold in great quantity to someone in
the High Forest.
Anyone have some canon-based information on these former dwarven fortresses?
I did not find any so far.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 04:57:49
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| -Citadel Felbarr, Citadel Sundabar, Citadel Adbar were all Dwarven outposts in the area originally under the political sphere of Delzoun. Presumably, other outposts, fortresses, carved out caverns, and whatever else that were formerly Dwarven belonged to Delzoun as well. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 07:41:54
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hanks for this, Krsus, but I expressed myself not correct I think.
I know that most of these must have belonged to Delzoun, but I was interested in their original Dwarven names and eventual canon information about them when they were still dwarven.
Orc names Eyegak, Tame Vokan. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 17:36:00
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| -On that, there is nothing. There doesn't have to have been any formal Dwarven names for them necessarily, though. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 19:06:36
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again, thanks for the reply.
I didnot say that it is necessary or a must, I was just curious if there was any information on them. It turned out since I am here that almost on any question there is some canon information which was not formerly known to me.
Or did you mean that the dwarves in the past did not necessarily name their strongholds? - this would seem strange to me since the dwarves of current times in the realms seem to take a lot of pride to name everything they build...
I thought it to be a part of their culture. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 19:13:09
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| It seems there was a dwarven name, for the text says they were "renamed". |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 19:29:19
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I don't think any of these fallen fortresses were ever given their old, dwarven names. Unless they showed up in an adventure, or were somehow otherwise pulled into the spotlight, they would just remain in the nameless background. And sometimes not even then; afaik the Dungeon of Death wasn't given a dwarven name, even when it was published as an adventure. It was just "the Deepdelve clanhold" or "the Deepdelve mines."
Also, I'm sure there are more than just three fallen dwarven fortresses in the Spine. Especially considering how many Hidden strongholds apparently still exist in both the Spine and elsewhere that aren't in any published books, because the dwarves have little to no interaction with humans.
Your best bet if you're looking for city names would be to check Dwarves Deep. If it's not in there, I doubt it's anywhere. It also might be interesting to ask Ed, to see if he can supply some names. In fact, I think I'll go do that. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 21:55:34
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The present city of Sundabar was originally Citadel Sundbarr. Citadel Adbar is the only name we've ever had for that hold, and Citadel Felbarr is the new (and, I believe, original) dwarven name for the Citadel of Many Arrows (as it was known while held by the orcs for a relatively brief time). As for others, apart from Mithral Hall, I don't know. I wonder if Ascore was the dwarven name, or the common name... it was originally a port city, before the Phaerimm dried up the Narrow Sea and created Anauroch, so it would have had a rather diverse population, much like Sundabar today.
Edit: If there are older dwarven names for any other places, I'm interested in knowing what they were as well.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 29 Feb 2012 21:57:59 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 00:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I wonder if Ascore was the dwarven name, or the common name...
Ascore was a dwarven port see GhotR and Dwarves Deep.
Reading Dwarves Deep comes up with a few settlement/fortress names:
Osstkar
Meruindelve
Orglaunt
Halanaskarr
More interestingly for me is the very detailed description of the borders of the realm of Gharraghaur with dwarven names for places inserted rather than the modern names we know (e.g Glaurimm instead of Mount Hotenow). Many of these might have held settlements and could easily be the 'lost fortresses' from the Savage Frontier piece.
Cheers
Damian
EDIT: From the Valley of Khedrun into the mountains:
"These were the earliest of the rich dwarven mines of the Sword Coast North. Many, particularly in the upper Vale, are now worked out or strongly held by orcs and worse"
I wouldn't imagine that Khedrun would be mining without fortified holds of some kind to fend off the orcs et al. Seems a perfect fit, so just need to re-read all the Lore of the North and see if we can find any more references to Khedrun perhaps?
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 01 Mar 2012 00:39:02 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 08:03:53
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| exactly this is what I was looking for, :) |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 10:30:31
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Having looked through George Krashos' excellent North Timeline I have found the following fortress names
Andalbruin (near to Settlestone and Mithral Hall - see dungeon 101)
Besendar’s Blockhouse (Everlund)
Thornhammer Hold (Grunwald)
Cheers
Damian
ps the timeline can be found here http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/history.html
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 02:52:11
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I had asked Ed a related question some time ago, about 'undiscovered' (unknown in previous published lore) dwarven fortresses in The North, and THO said there was at least one that she knew of, and that Ed hopefully had more.
I never got an answer yet, and now the map I needed them for - the Nentir Vale/Delimbyr Vale conversion - no longer exists. 
Anyhow, like I said, THO did say she had one "in her notes", but I guess she couldn't find the name. I doubt, however, it had anything to do with the three you are looking for - I was looking for one near Turnstone Pass. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2012 02:53:29 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 16:15:25
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| really interesting, would also like to know if these might then be linked to some of the mentionedly extincted dwarven clans due to wars with orcs and their kin... |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 02:23:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
Spine of the World Orcs: In these bleak mountains, the most
powerful orc tribes skulk in stone fortresses stolen from the
dwarves and renamed Eyegad, Tame, and Vokan.
For starters, I would remind that the dwarves almost universally stole these same sites from the orcs and goblins and such that were living there before them, and then developed them further and slapped Dwarvish names on them.
I once asked Ed what would be the proper Dwarvish name for Mithral Hall, and he said "HIMral Uldoun" (<source>). |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 20:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
For starters, I would remind that the dwarves almost universally stole these same sites from the orcs and goblins and such that were living there before them, and then developed them further and slapped Dwarvish names on them.
Where have you found this information, BEAST? Any sources?
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 17:39:01
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agreed, just checked the post u referred to from Ed, and my interpretion is not as clear.
He states that dwarves eventually overtook and furthered trading places or similar, where other underdark races already traded / mined. I have not found any hint that these were orcish fortresses then renamed by dwarves. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 06:28:56
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(I typed all of this up, previewing several times, and then right before I was ready to post it, I accidentally clicked "Reset Fields". ARRRGGHHHH!!! Hopefully I was able to recover all the text and re-set all the formatting tags, properly.)
OK, first off, I have to say that I almost feel dirty about what I'm about to type here. I'm a dwarf at heart, and it pains me to share these ideas. Durn you MarkusTay, you vile orc-lover, you, for planting the insidious seed within my mind! But intellectual honesty dictates that I acknowledge what I've found, and the ugly conclusions that it leads me to.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
He states that dwarves eventually overtook and furthered trading places or similar, where other underdark races already traded / mined. I have not found any hint that these were orcish fortresses then renamed by dwarves.
Note: I did not say that the dwarves took orcish/goblinoid "fortresses". I said that they stole goblinoid "sites":
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
For starters, I would remind that the dwarves almost universally stole these same sites from the orcs and goblins and such that were living there before them, and then developed them further and slapped Dwarvish names on them. [bold added]
In remote, ancient times on Faerûn, goblinoids generally did not possess the technology or level of civilization to be able to provide outright fortresses for dwarves to come in and snatch. All they could provide were lowly caves and semi-worked cavern networks.
But that doesn't really matter here, does it? It's not the quality of the orcan booty. It's that the dwarves considered orcan property to be loot, at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Where have you found this information, BEAST? Any sources?
Admittedly, it's mostly anecdotal and circumstantial. But it's pretty darn strong circumstantial evidence. And the anecdotes are very damning, in their own right.
For starters, I will remind you of the orc tales of a divine casting of lots long ago, in which the other gods conspired together to take all the best domains, and Gruumsh was left with squat (Unearthed Arcana, p118; Monster Mythology, p45; Faiths and Pantheons, p148-9).
This may, perhaps, be self-serving mythology and propaganda for orcs. But it certainly makes for a rational explanation why Gruumsh has been royally miffed at the multiverse since Ao-knows-when!
But before we dismiss it as mere mythology, I think we should ask ourselves: Why haven't we ever heard any of the "goodly" races counter the Gruumshish idea of orcs having been slighted ever since the beginning? Why haven't the other races explained that away, with specific detail, as a grave misunderstanding? Where's the denial of the orc charge? Why haven't they given their own explanation for orc anger, other than reducing it to orcs simply being "evil"?
I think that the goodly races' apparent silence (Right? I'm not overlooking any relevant sources, am I?) on this speaks volumes. It's quite telling, indeed, that the goodly races are quick to cite all the attrocities perpetrated by orcdom over the millenia, without ever speaking to the orcs' original complaint. As much as I hate to say this, by all appearances, it's a tacit, tight-lipped acknowledgment of the truth of Gruumsh's complaint. The goodly races are guilty, and deep down, they're ashamed. Their gods behaved haughtily toward the god of the orcs, and they passed down that same haughtiness to their "goodly" followers. And that's wholly inconsistent with the notion of being goodly and honorable and fair. And it probably had a big hand in putting that gigantic chip on the shoulders of all orcs. Seen in that light, the goodly races contributed to their own suffering at the ends of orc spears, by giving orcs the motivation to use such arms in the first place.
Similarly, the dwarves are probably really ashamed, deep down, at how they acquired their citadels and holds. They know it's not politically correct, in this day and age. And I'm thinking that Realms authors have a bad feeling about this, too, or else they would've given us more origins tales of the founding of these dwarven fortresses. (Origin tales rock! Or at least, when they're exciting, honorable, and inspiring, they do.)
Instead, we get euphemistic blurbs in histories that "such-and-such founded such-and-such fortress", or "Dwarves found such-and-such fortress". Gee, how quaint and simplistic it all sounds when put like that, dontcha think?
But let's take a gander at what tidbits of lore nevertheless lie deep in the histories of the northern dwarves' collective past, shall we?
The Orcs Were There First:
Orcs were active in the North long before the dwarves:
Orcs have been deemed to have lived in a feral, disorganized state for approximately 15,000 years, before finally becoming organized into tribes and confederacies (Races of Faerûn, p69).
-24000 DR: An orc horde sacks the Northern elf city of Occidian. But the elf knight Kethryllia Amarillis, hero of many conflicts with orcs, helps turn back the horde at Sharlarion (Evermeet: Island of Elves, B2:C8; The Grand History of the Realms, p10).
Mountain orcs are not known to be nomadic, but rather, to set up permanent abodes (ROF, p70).
-3900 DR: Clan Shanat dwarves founded Delzoun, the Northkingdom (ROF, p19; LEOF, p84; TGHOTR, p27).
Because orcs were around the North a lot longer than the dwarves, it's entirely conceivable that the orcs had already proliferated and set up shop in many, if not most, of the good sites in the North by the time the dwarves belatedly got there. Therefore, dwarves were almost certainly visitors, or interlopers, or intruders, or invaders on orc territory.
No matter how much we may like or identify with the dwarves, we need to recognize that fact.
The Dwarves Actually Had to Go Out of Their Way to Look for Trouble:
The dwarves of the South had a wondrous kingdom, but they were not content with that. They needed breathing room. And they expected others to accommodate them.
-11000 DR: Dwarves of Clan Shanat of Bhaerynden (later to be known as the Great Rift) migrate from the South, and head out west, eventually founding the kingdom or empire of Shanatar (ROF, p17; Lost Empires of Faerûn, p113; TGHOTR, p14).
-10500 DR: The eight sons of Clan Shanat migrate northward (ROF, p17; LEOF, p113; TGHOTR, p15).
The orcs and goblins didn't come to the dwarves. It was the other way around.
Dwarves Would Even Steal Land from Each Other:
-9000 DR: The sons of Clan Shanat expand their territories at each other's expense, flagrantly disrespecting boundaries. They then wage civil war against one another, in the Spawn Wars (ROF, p17; LEOF, p113; TGHOTR, p16).
Now, if dwarves wouldn't even honor dwarven territorial rights, what makes any of us think they would feel compelled to honor those rights of other races? If they could justify to themselves taking whatever they want, and then fighting to hold onto it, then what does that tell us about dwarven lands in the North?
Selective Dwarven Ethics:
-8137 DR: The 8 dwarven kings of Shanatar pledge never to dishonor each other's territory and fight each other again (ROF, p17; LEOF, p114; TGHOTR, p19).
Notice, however, that there is no such promise to honor territory and avoid violence with members of other races. It's a dwarf thing, and wholly a dwarf thing.
Endless Wars: Whose Fault?
-9000 to -4000 DR: Shanatar dwarves continue to push ever further into the North (ROF, p18; LEOF, p118).
In the process, they wage wars with no less than drow, orcs, illithids, djinnis, giants, and humans (ROF; LEOF; TGHOTR).
Now, no matter how much we may like or identify with dwarves, we need to ask ourselves: Do we really believe that the dwarves were always the victims of others' violence, or were they, in the process of expanding ever northward, perhaps the aggressors now and then?
<"Why's Everybody Always Picking on Me?">
With as many as eight dwarven kingdoms spreading out, do we honestly believe that everyone in the North would be willing and accommodating to hand over choice land? And does it really sound like the Shanatar dwarves even cared?
Delzoun, the Northkingdom:
With all of the above as background context, really think about the establishment of the mighty dwarven fortresses of the North, and what sort of opposition the dwarves probably faced. Realms historians package it all neat and tidy-like for us, to fit the information into pretty little columns and such. But take the time to think about what must've went into carrying out the deeds behind these simple lines of text:
-3900 DR: Shanatar dwarves founded Delzoun, the Northkingdom (ROF, p19; LEOF, p84; TGHOTR, p27).
-3000 DR: Now-Delzoun dwarves founded the original deep subterranean dwarven fortress of Gauntlgrym (Humans founded Illusk in -3000 DR {LEOF, p84, p136; Delzoun dwarves discovered rich mines that would become Gauntlgrym during this time {Neverwinter Campaign Setting, C1:p12}}.
-1950 DR: Construction begins on Citadel Felbarr (TGHOTR, p33).
-1500 DR: Probable date for the founding of Citadel Adbar (see below).
-1150 DR: Ilgostroghe Sstar leads a massive expedition of Delzoun dwarves from Adbar towards the ruins of the dwarven fortress of Gharraghaur (the site of future Mirabar), only to be continuously harassed by orcs, and then re-locates to the northern Sea of Swords coast and founds Ironmaster; in its disillusionment, Clan Sstar becomes isolationist in the extreme (Hall of Heroes, p12-13).
-650 DR: Gandalug Battlehammer founds Mithral Hall, approximately 2000 years before the Time of Troubles (The Legacy, P5:C25).
-500 DR: Citadel Sundbarr is constructed (LEOF, p84; TGHOTR, p43).
-370 DR: Work begins on Citadel Adbar (TGHOTR, p47; However, my research indicates that Adbar may have actually been founded much earlier--as early as -1500 DR--because dwarves were said to have left Adbar to go on to found Ironmaster and Mithral Hall {Hall of Heroes, p12-13}).
Note that the eager dwarves dug their tunnels so recklessly as part of Gauntlgrym that they ran right smack dab into the big Kahuna of indigenous locals: a fire primordial!
And if they could make that mistake, what scruples do you really think they would have about stepping on a few orc or goblin toes?
Let's find out, shall we?
The Founding of Mithral Hall:
-850 DR to -650 DR: Gandalug spent 2 centuries seeking a location for a kingdom; his life had been hard in the untamed world (TL, P5:C25; originally attributed to a "Bunko" Battlehammer {HOH, p13}).
-650 DR: Gandalug "tamed and settled" Mithral Hall (TL, P5:C25).
This may strike a reader as a matter of minor semantics, but notice that we're told that Gandalug "tamed" the Hall. It didn't just let him in, easily. He had to fight for it; and he fought hard. Goblin-kin and giant-kin abounded.
And they persisted, despite Clan Battlehammer's best efforts:
Between 1181 & 1183 DR: Young Bruenor Battlehammer leads a group of his cousins to a tunnel outside of Mithral Hall, and therefore not yet claimed by Clan Battlehammer, where other dwarves had recently disastrously encountered goblins and an ettin; the youngsters aim to clear the tunnels in the name of the clan ("The First Notch").
Notice that these dwarves, even at a young age, considered it their duty to encroach onto the territory of another race and whack the others. Invading foreign territory of goblin-kin (and whatever else might be down there) was considered perfectly excusable because dwarves are entitled!
1358 DR: King Bruenor knew that goblins and an ettin were down in the tunnels outside of Mithral Hall's territory, for he had seen them a long time before, but with the coming of Shimmergloom the dragon, the clan had (in Bruenor's own words) "'never got the time to clean the vermin out'" (TL, P1:C1).
Goblins and giants = "vermin". How delicate!
1358 DR: Catti-brie points out to Bruenor that an attack against the goblins at this point would constitute an invasion of foreign territory, and claiming the mithral any deeper in the mountain would constitute theft, temporarily trapping Bruenor with her logic (TL, P1:C1). But RAS finds a way to give us our big battle, just the same.
Epilogue:
As a parting anecdote, recall the scene in Sea of Swords, in which the Companions are freezing while hiking in the foothills of the Spine of the World along the Sword Coast North, and Drizzt finds a cave full of goblins. Drizzt initially considered stealing the cave right away from the goblins and killing them all, but reneges, and suggests a parlay with the goblins so that all involved might share the cave. Bruenor harumps at that notion, prefering to just kill them too, but then relents (SOSw, P4:C20). Once again, RAS finds a way to provide us the big fight scene, anyway.
If it was that easy for goodly heroes to steal land from goblins in 1371 DR, then how much easier might it have been in -1371 DR?
Now, it might be tempting to dismiss this as only one clear example of a dwarven fortress being built on goblin-kin territory.
But consider the mindset involved behind the founding of this one fortress, and evaluate whether we've ever been given any evidence to conclude that the mindsets behind the founding of any of the other dwarven fortresses were all that different. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 08:08:07
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quite good explaina5tion, Best.
Also agree with your earlier writings - u did not say they took fortresses.
I have long shared this point of view, and it is like this in many readings of Novels or realmslore. The goodly races behave like crusaders, thinking they are righteous to do so, just because they degrade other humanoids of not being worthy or as you put it "evil".
In the spine of the world this is even more evident, since the huge height and underdark sections below the surface, makes the spine probably bigger ( in available space over dozens of levels ) than the whole north region.
The mentionings with your statements are, imho, only being furthered when the kingdom of many arrows is founded. Orcs then, at least Obould's orcs, have a space above surface which belings to them. But millennia of HAVING to defend against the goodly races has become so deeply anchored in the mindest of the Orcs, that they are now just used to be "trying" and do not know what to do with any gain they made, other than to rush on until defeated.
The goblins, at least mainly, have accepted being weaker than the invadors, and try different tactics to make a living, and willingly follow everybody showing strength - eventually being a conclusion of being slaughtered by elves, dwarves, humans and the like for countless millennia and now having the urge of being protected by someone - no matter which race, showing their deep desparation - until they have built the strength, or they are given the illusion to have the strength, to turn the tide and drive them off.
Hobgoblins, as Ed and THO wonderfully described it, have decided to stay under the radar completely. They take what they want, being good staretgists, fighters etc. and use other humanoids to face the goodly races openly to further their goals, and to maintain their life standards. What happens if they decide different, we see in the sythilisian invasion.... As ED and THO put it, these wouldbe the efforts of a SINGLE tribe of hobgoblins having decided to want more - which is quite firghtening indeed. But Hobgoblins have learned that the goodly races are just too powerful and numerous to be driven away completely, so they act as described above.
I think it couldbe continued like this with many other races, like kobolds, lizardmen, even trolls and the like.
But coming back to the initial question, I am still looking for bits and pieces of lore where one could probably backtrack the namings of these mentioned old fortresses and their history. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 14:49:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
(...)The goodly races behave like crusaders, thinking they are righteous to do so, just because they degrade other humanoids of not being worthy or as you put it "evil".(...)
I think of dwarves, in this case, like the european settlers of the New World, or american settlers of the wild west, in their view of the savage goblinoids. However, unlike reality in our world, the orcs and their kin ARE ALL (or at least almost all) savage creatures who delight in killing and live worshipping dark and violent gods. Well, at least that was the idea when these villains were created, based on legendary goblins or in Tolkien's depiction of orc/goblins. They WERE evil, and so there would be needed heroes to fight against them.
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 13:00:00
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| Beast, that's a really interesting timeline exploration. I don't think I fully realized how late the dwarves arrived on the scene in some cases. We sort of think of the North as this great struggle between the dwarves and the orcs, with the dwarves on the losing end these days, but the elves were there fighting the exact same fight for a lot longer. They must have absolutely loved it when the dwarves came storming north and started kicking the orcs out of their own holes. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 18:55:49
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Don't know why I never responded back to this - BEAST's summations of Dwarven expansionism is quite excellent (I think I was moving at the time this thread was active).
I was looking for info on Halanaskarr (which the FRIA seems to have placed right next to the Dungeon of Death - could they have been the same place?), and came back across this thread. I really like the idea that the 'goodly folk' (humans and demi-humans) took the land away from primitive goblinoids - it really fits quite well with their folklore.
Humans appear to have had a much earlier level of civilization then commonly believed (and then fell back into barbarism), so their claim may pre-date that of the Orcs, but I don't think so. From what little we have about the Crown Wars era, hordes of Orcs were common even back then (The Battle of God's Theater, for example). From all appearances, after the Days of Thunder, primitive humans dominated the south, and primitive goblinoids/orcs dominated the north, and then the demi-humans all arrived (and with the possible sole exception of the Hin, may have all been interlopers). This would mean the orcs would be justified in their beliefs that the others 'took their land'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Nov 2012 18:56:35 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 21:04:14
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What people wouldn't become bitter (even evil) after thousands of years of being slaughtered by races bent on their execution en masse! And if they are twisted and turned to evil, wouldn't the gods they worship be the same?
Makes sense why orcs continue to try and take land...they aren't taking it, they are still DEFENDING it from invaders.
This will be great for me...I just started playing a character in a game that this will be VERY useful for me. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 09:43:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What people wouldn't become bitter (even evil) after thousands of years of being slaughtered by races bent on their execution en masse! And if they are twisted and turned to evil, wouldn't the gods they worship be the same?
Christian people. At least, the serious ones... Well, what I'm trying to say is that almost all the peoples were oppressed and had to fight back somehow in some point of history, but not necessarily all end up becoming bitter or evil (or turning their worship to evil).
This relativization is something quite new in our history, and wasn't present in the times of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, or when the cowboy stories were popular. Orcs were the needed villains, back there (based on the legendary goblins, something so evil, culturally, than witches or werewolves). And it's up to you consider them as that, or see them as just another people, but with a harder historical background.
In my games, I prefer to maintain some classical stereotypes, like dragons, goblins, hags, demons and undead being evil and elves, dwarves, angels and paladins being good. My opinion, once again. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 14:39:45
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For most races I would agree, but I like the idea of redeemable orcs and drow. I think if something can think, it should be able to have some free will, and therefor the the idea of a 'racial alignment' just rubs me the wrong way. Its kind of a 'nurture vs nature' thing.
"Might makes Right" has been the law of nature (and evolution) since time began. Hardier lifeforms eke-out the weaker ones. Civilization itself is a aberration, when you think about it. It defies natural selection by defending the weak.
So just because Orcs think differently then humans (or dwarves, or elves) doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them different. They have their own ideas about right and wrong. Cultures that are primarily hunter/gatherer and nomadic don't even fully understand the concept of land ownership. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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PaulBestwick
Seeker
United Kingdom
83 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 16:09:39
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| Old school point of view here, Orcs are vermin. You have to prevent storng leadership forming, so as to prevent internal conflict amongst the clans or tribes. If this does come about you are in for a hell fo a problem, look at the history of Waterdeep for the proof. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 16:20:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(...)
"Might makes Right" has been the law of nature (and evolution) since time began. Hardier lifeforms eke-out the weaker ones. Civilization itself is a aberration, when you think about it. It defies natural selection by defending the weak.
So just because Orcs think differently then humans (or dwarves, or elves) doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them different. They have their own ideas about right and wrong. Cultures that are primarily hunter/gatherer and nomadic don't even fully understand the concept of land ownership.
As I said, this is one way of developing your world. Mine is closer to the Tolkien concept, with goblinoids as cruel creatures, willing to kill for pleasure and eat even the flesh of their own species. And this view is surely influenced by the mythology that fed Tolkien's ideas. Another strong source for RPG is Conan, that puts Picts not very differently from Tolkien's orcs. And Picts are humans. And Tolkien's dwarves, in a way, had the "Might makes Right" ideal in their society. But yes, they probably wouldn't let the weak die, like in a Spartan society. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 18:35:37
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It's hard to believe that orcs or drow could perform the kinds of raids en-masse that they're notorious for if they didn't have leaders who at least believed in stewardship of their forces. That requires some concern for nurturing, developing, and safeguarding. Even if it were a case of some hella "tough love", it could still be seen as a form of love: love for one's people.
So even though, yes, the classic mythology right on through Tolkien and early D&D/Realmslore has always portrayed orcs superficially and ostensibly as purely evil, nevertheless, their social dynamics would still seem to have always required that there be more to them than just evil.
EDIT: fixed spelling |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 27 Nov 2012 21:24:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 19:06:13
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'Pure' evil creatures would NEVER be able to form social groups - they would be too self-absorbed.
The fact that even illithids tolerate each other shows that they aren't considered 'evil' amongst themselves. At one time I may have thought Aboleths (and probably beholders) a good choice for 'pure' evil creatures, but they have also been seen in a social organization now. Very few D&D creatures are truly 'solitary' anymore.
Goblins & Kobolds (and all their offshoots) I do consider evil, but once again, only by human standards. I would not consider them in the same category as Drow or even Orcs. Hobgoblins I would place on the 'redeemable' end of the spectrum with Orcs, but Bugbears I'd just consider giant goblins (and therefor pretty damn evil). So in the case of most goblinoids, I would portray them (IMG) along the lines of the Tolkienesque model.
Since I consider goblins corrupted fey (from the time of the Black Diamond incident), I can buy they are 'truly evil', and not redeemable (except in VERY rare instances). Even though I can point to several cases in FR where goblins were borderline 'good' in canon (which I assume to be cases of those rare exceptions). Are rats evil? I look at goblins like anthropomorphic rats, socially. They normally get along because it is in their best interest to do so. When it is not in their best interest, then they will attack each other. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Nov 2012 19:20:33 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 19:10:58
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| My view on Orcs has now evolved a great deal to think of them more as simply a brutal tribal people. They do many "evil" things in their society...but they don't think in terms of "good" or "evil" even so much as "I'm hungry, lets go eat some humans!" Not to bring reality too much into our fantasy, but humans eat humans too...especially in fantasy! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 19:28:29
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I don't think Orcs eat humans by choice - I think its more a matter of survival (and even humans eat each other when there is no other choice). A hungry Orc will try to find some game, or steal some livestock, etc, before resorting to eating other sentients. They just don't have as many qualms about it as humans and demi-humans do.
When I think about it, I think only elves won't eat each other when desperate. Then again, the Dark Elves did when they were first cursed (and became drow), so why do we think we are so much better then them? Because we have more choices available to us? Thats rather haughty of us, since we will resort to the same things when facing starvation.
I'm sure someone ate an orc at one time or another. The North must have had it's 'Donner Party' equivalent a time or two. Would you be nearly as disgusted coming across a human eating an orc as you would an orc eating a human? You'd probably just assume the human was mighty hungry, and forgive the offense. Thats a very bad double-standard right there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 19:37:21
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| Dwarves have been known to eat fallen enemies without any prompting from starvation. Witness Bruenor making a soup of giant brains in one of the early Drizzt books. He did it because he thought it would taste good (most of the rest of the group disagreed). It's been a long while since I read those books, though, so I can't give a specific page cite. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Old Dwarven now Orc fortresses in Spine of the Wor
