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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 19:52:02
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| Makes you wonder who ate who first! Maybe orcs eat others because the Dwarves, bringing no food resources with them enough, actually ate orcs and giants first! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 20:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Even though I can point to several cases in FR where goblins were borderline 'good' in canon (which I assume to be cases of those rare exceptions).
Other than Nojheim, what FR goblins were borderline good? |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 22:19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'Pure' evil creatures would NEVER be able to form social groups - they would be too self-absorbed.
The fact that even illithids tolerate each other shows that they aren't considered 'evil' amongst themselves. At one time I may have thought Aboleths (and probably beholders) a good choice for 'pure' evil creatures, but they have also been seen in a social organization now. Very few D&D creatures are truly 'solitary' anymore.
Are these races what D&D would categorize as "Lawful Evil", then? They are comprised of individuals who who would gladly do harm to others and enjoy it, but who also submit to the rule of law & order for the sake of the welfare of the race and/or more immediate social group?
The Lawful category is not just a statement about the leaders of a race, but just as much one about the followers. It says that the followers--the common, everyday peon representatives of the race--are concerned about the welfare of their race enough to put aside their immediate personal interests, compromise, and cooperate with one another.
And that sort of concern for the "other" would seem to preclude one from being deemed "Evil", at all.
We're then left with evil deeds being perpetrated by non-Evil creatures. Isn't that exactly the same case with humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, etc.?
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Goblins & Kobolds (and all their offshoots) I do consider evil, but once again, only by human standards. I would not consider them in the same category as Drow or even Orcs. Hobgoblins I would place on the 'redeemable' end of the spectrum with Orcs, but Bugbears I'd just consider giant goblins (and therefor pretty damn evil). So in the case of most goblinoids, I would portray them (IMG) along the lines of the Tolkienesque model.
Since I consider goblins corrupted fey (from the time of the Black Diamond incident), I can buy they are 'truly evil', and not redeemable (except in VERY rare instances).
I'm not sure why or how you draw that dividing line. It seems arbitrary to me, right now.
I like Dalor's interpretation, of there just being more savage or barbaric races, who lack social graces, and end up offending more civilized sorts thereby, but who probably are not Evil deep down, after all.
Perhaps goblins and kobolds breed and grow so fast that they can assemble mass forces more quickly than orcs can, which allows these smaller races to rely more heavily on strength in numbers even moreso than other races ever could, and which also unfortunately enables and empowers the smaller races to avoid law & order and compromise and suppression of personal interests to a greater degree?
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Are rats evil? I look at goblins like anthropomorphic rats, socially. They normally get along because it is in their best interest to do so. When it is not in their best interest, then they will attack each other.
I'm thinking in terms of hyenas or baboons. They can have social groups/packs/tribes, but they are also seen turning on each other and even eating each other--sometimes with little provocation. They can work together, or tear each other apart.
Think of an unstable pit bull dog. Sometimes, they just snap on their owners. They're creatures of raw instinct, and unhindered by moral scruples. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 22:23:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Makes you wonder who ate who first! Maybe orcs eat others because the Dwarves, bringing no food resources with them enough, actually ate orcs and giants first!
<"Who ATE Who?">  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 27 Nov 2012 22:24:14 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 09:35:22
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| At least in the history of Myth Glaurach (published in the Wizards page some years ago), it is mentioned that orcs regularly eat other humanoids, and it doesn't seem, in this particular piece of lore, that it is done out of hunger. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 11:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Even though I can point to several cases in FR where goblins were borderline 'good' in canon (which I assume to be cases of those rare exceptions).
Other than Nojheim, what FR goblins were borderline good?
There was a group living with some Monks in the Hordelands. Then something (Oni?) killed the Monks and enslaved the goblins - the text said that the goblins would be willing to side with the PCs against their new masters. Basically, they just leaned toward the alignment of whoever was in charge.
Was Nojheim the goblin from the Drizzt story? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 11:47:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Even though I can point to several cases in FR where goblins were borderline 'good' in canon (which I assume to be cases of those rare exceptions).
Other than Nojheim, what FR goblins were borderline good?
There was a group living with some Monks in the Hordelands. Then something (Oni?) killed the Monks and enslaved the goblins - the text said that the goblins would be willing to side with the PCs against their new masters. Basically, they just leaned toward the alignment of whoever was in charge.
Was Nojheim the goblin from the Drizzt story?
That doesn't mean those goblins were good.
Yup. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 12:14:45
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That's true, and living in society does not necessarily means a race is lawful or even good. One should read Richard Dawkins' The Selfish Gene. Living in a community can further your own goals and raise your survival chances, for example, and you can be altruistic to closer relatives as an egoistical reflex of your "genetic behavior".
I think Dawkins goes too far negating some principles, and I also think he is overly negative, denying cultural and religious influence in our lives, but mainly you can understand how our - imperfect - world (and we can extrapolate it to the Realms) can have entire societies of selfish beings.
Even the motivation of this interest in beings of the same species can be selfish, like an evil creature that approaches the opposite sex to satisfy his/her/its sexual desire, and avoid misrteating badly or killing the partner because the sexual instincts overcome him/her/it, and doing so could impede future relations, for example.
And elves, good and evil, are examples of chaotic societies, and some stuff was written about those alignment definitions. But this should be another topic...  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 13:50:22
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Agreed. I don't understand why there seems to be this idea in this thread that if a society is "lawful" that means it isn't "pure evil." Whatever that means. In D&D it's pretty well established that the only things that are "pure evil" are the fiends of the lower planes, and that they're all different "flavors" of "pure evil."
From a practical standpoint, there's a limit to the amount of pain and suffering that a single person, acting alone, can dish out. You need civilization, law and order, to really turn the screws, as any number of regimes here on Earth have proven. And it's easy enough for the common folk to go along with, as long as they buy into the myth of "one of these days, it'll be ME on the top of the pile."
Bringing this back closer to the original question, I do think it's an interesting idea about how much orc eating the first dwarves did during their wars of conquest. Supplies would definitely be an issue, no matter how massive the migration (and, assumably, its non-warrior components). And the fact that it was primarily a war of conquest, not peaceful expansion into unoccupied territory, would make growing your own food harder.
From a purely objective stand-point, I can see a number of advantages to eating the fallen. First off, most of the fighting would be underground, which would drastically slow down the natural processes that decompose bodies on the surface. Not as many insects, for instance. Which means the bodies would remain putrid for much longer, and the polluted air could linger and block off passages. Eating them would solve much of that difficulty.
Second, as Dalor mentioned, is the supply problem. Eating orcs would at least lessen, though not remove, that logistical nightmare. Third, it would deny those bodies to the orc shamen to raise as many forms of undead (the bones would have to be carefully dealt with, however).
So I think it's entirely possible that the dwarves engaged in at least some orc eating when they came north. They would likely downplay, if not outright deny, this fact in later days. All of which, of course, adds yet another interesting dimension to the dwarven exodus. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 23:24:15
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Ed deals with dwarven food predilections in his latest book and specifically mentions that they don't eat orc flesh unless they have no alternative. Orc blood however is standard fare.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 28 Nov 2012 23:39:07 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 23:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ed deals with dwarven food predilections in his latest book and specifically mentions that they don't eat orc flesh unless they have no alternative. Orc blood however is standard fare.
-- George Krashos
That was in Elminster's Forgotten Realms? How the heck did I miss that...hmmmm...must find that page. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 04:17:18
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The devil's in the detail, Dalor!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 05:12:12
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Giant brains and Orc blood.
Don't fall asleep near a hungry Dwarf.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 14:08:00
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IMHO, coming to speak of evil and not, I think sometimes, especially Bruenor, in the books around drizzt dwarves have some evil and extremely "racist" tendencies - they see it as their natural right and even duty to slaughter goblins, orcs and other humanoids.
So them drinking their blood and eating their brains brings them, for me, to much the same level regarding "evil" acts done to humanoids races.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 16:51:53
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| On the other hand, if the orcs and goblins are always trying to kill the dwarves (which is true for thousands of years), is killing them back evil, or just self defense? I'd argue the second. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 16:55:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
On the other hand, if the orcs and goblins are always trying to kill the dwarves (which is true for thousands of years), is killing them back evil, or just self defense? I'd argue the second.
Which could be argued against as well:
The orcs were there FIRST, then the elves came along and pushed them into the mountains...then the dwarves came along and tried to exterminate them...so who is defending against who?
This sort of debate goes on and on though...if my grandfather killed your grandfather, does that mean you have to kill me?
It is a circular blood-feud logic that never plays out well for anyone. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 18:26:28
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Except the elves, who didn't have to fight the orcs alone. And I don't think the elves ever really threatened the orc homelands, since the orcs never lived in forests. They were always up in the mountains, and still attacked the elves whenever they had a chance.
Face it, at this point (and probably back then as well), the orcs killed dwarves and elves because they liked to. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 19:16:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Except the elves, who didn't have to fight the orcs alone. And I don't think the elves ever really threatened the orc homelands, since the orcs never lived in forests. They were always up in the mountains, and still attacked the elves whenever they had a chance.
Face it, at this point (and probably back then as well), the orcs killed dwarves and elves because they liked to.
Heck yeah orcs killed elves because they liked to...but I thought the elves did push aside the orcs in the north? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 20:41:11
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I don't think so, though of course events at this far remove are hard to figure out for certain. I checked both Cormanthyr and the Grand History. The first concrete mention of orcs in Cormanthyr is the middle of the Crown Wars, though the section head for the First Flowering does mention their successful struggles against them.
Grand History is more specific: the first mention of orcs is when they sack the gold elves' capital of Occidan in -24,400 DR. There isn't any mention of them before this, and all of the elves' attentions seem to be on the dragons. The gold and moon elves had only been in the Realms for 1000 years at that point; it seems unlikely that they'd done much more than expand inside the High Forest. At least where it comes to the elves and orcs, it looks like the orcs started it.
In retrospect, this makes the elven wars against the orcs make a lot more sense. They'd barely escaped their first realm, and it's entirely possible there were still a few Tintageer-born alive when the horde came. They're building new homes and a new civilization in a new world, they've been focused on fighting (and dodging) the dragons, and then the orcs essentially sucker punch them. I'd take it personally as well. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 02:45:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Giant brains and Orc blood.
Don't fall asleep near a hungry Dwarf.
Or kiss one!
On Bruenor's behalf, at least it wasn't another dog leg (see Sojourn).
Man, did that dwarf have . . . eclectic food tastes or what?!
I'm guessing it was a touch of the aboriginal/barbarian notion that eating a slain enemy's heart would transfer some of that enemy's strength to the slayer. What warrior wouldn't want a giant's strength, or an orc's ferocity? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 02:52:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
IMHO, coming to speak of evil and not, I think sometimes, especially Bruenor, in the books around drizzt dwarves have some evil and extremely "racist" tendencies - they see it as their natural right and even duty to slaughter goblins, orcs and other humanoids.
There was also that scene in The Crystal Shard in which Bruenor wanted to torture a captive orc to get information out of him, but Drizzt called in Regis with the enchanting ruby pendant, instead. "Bah . . . but torturin'd be more fun!" Bruenor said.
People accuse Drizzt of being a goody-two-shoes all the time, but that first book actually depicted some pretty dark versions of both him and Bruenor, if you think about it.
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 03:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
On the other hand, if the orcs and goblins are always trying to kill the dwarves (which is true for thousands of years), is killing them back evil, or just self defense? I'd argue the second.
Which could be argued against as well:
The orcs were there FIRST, then the elves came along and pushed them into the mountains...then the dwarves came along and tried to exterminate them...so who is defending against who?
This sort of debate goes on and on though...if my grandfather killed your grandfather, does that mean you have to kill me?
It is a circular blood-feud logic that never plays out well for anyone.
There might be some rational conclusion to be had, if we actually knew the facts.
What were Gruumsh and the orcs like before they came to Toril? Were they already belligerent warmongers? If so, then that undermines any claims to legitimacy or justice that the orcs might otherwise have down through time, since then. If they busted into the joint a-swinging and a-stomping from the very beginning just because, then they really were just plain evil villains, and the stereotypes about them are not unwarranted.
Was there ever a real divine casting of lots, which relegated the orcs to unwanted habitats? Or did orcs actually prefer cavern homes in the rocky crags?
Did the orcs attack the elves first, out of jealousy and/or bloodlust? Or did the elves attack the orcs first, out of a smug, superior sense of racism and/or bloodlust?
I think it's pretty clear (from the circumstantial evidence available to us) that the dwarves were the aggressors against the orcs.
But mayhaps the dwarves felt that such aggression was warranted, if the orcs had already earned a reputation for not playing nicely with others in their interactions with the elves. If you already know that they shoot first, then you don't bake them a cake and ask to be friends.
We really need to know what happened back at the beginning of orc time on Toril.
Until then, we can only really say that elves and dwarves and humans have shown the capacity to live at peace with one another for mutual benefit on a large scale, while orcs have shown a proclivity for wars of aggression and general mayhem. If any orcs wish to be differentiated from the rest of their kind, then let them come forward and be judged on their own merits. Drizzt did it. But no orc should claim victimhood. Drizzt knew full well that the racism he faced was essentially justified, because most drow are frickin' evil. So should any orc. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Old Dwarven now Orc fortresses in Spine of the Wor
