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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 01:18:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Well, just because a child of a sun elf and a moon elf may be one or the other doesn't mean it takes no traits at all from its other parent. A deeply bronzed gold elf and a white-as-snow silver elf could produce a golf elf child who nonetheless has a warm-toned but light-skinned appearance (and keep in mind there is more in appearance than coloration).
Off topic, but I'd LOVE to know what a golf elf looks like. 
But generally yes, two subraces of elves that mingle to create a child will generally have a child that MOSTLY resembles one or the other, but said child may well have traits and characteristics that take after the less dominant parent.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 05:20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
Elves of Evermeet said that there are also Gold Elves that did not mingle with anyone.
-Add in the preface "generally speaking". Doesn't particularly change the gist of the point, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Well, just because a child of a sun elf and a moon elf may be one or the other doesn't mean it takes no traits at all from its other parent. A deeply bronzed gold elf and a white-as-snow silver elf could produce a golf elf child who nonetheless has a warm-toned but light-skinned appearance (and keep in mind there is more in appearance than coloration).
-Yes, but keep in mind that you can't particularly use a Punnett Square when it comes to Elves. For over 25,000 years, Sun, Moon and Wood Elves have been generally coexisting and living amongst each other in Realmspace, on the continent, in space, and where ever else. For some time, in certain places, Star Elves can be added to the mix as well. Based on the snippets of lore for people and events describing 25,000 years in the past, 20,000 years in the past, 15,000 years in the past, 10,000 years, 5,000 years whatever our descriptions of Sun, Moon, Wood (and Star) Elves are generally static. If you go with a century as being more or less a single generation, that's 250 generations with no general changes. In a metagame sense, this is most likely just because the writers see "X, Y, and Z" as the stats/appearance/peculiarities of the race in their reference books are don't necessarily say to themselves, "Well, twenty-five thousand years ago, how might the race look/act/think/whatever differently then, as opposed to now". In a in-world sense, though, as a whole, no amount of interbreeding and intermingling has produced any sort of real change*.
*Some will say, "Look at Races of Faerûn! Wood Elves in that book are a subrace exclusively bred from Moon Elves, Sun Elves, and Green Elves (which in prior lore were those Wood Elves, which became 3e "Wild Elves"!)!" It's still an inconsistency in the information, the "which one of these things doesn't belong" Sesame Street sketch. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 21 Feb 2012 05:31:56 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 05:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Off topic, but I'd LOVE to know what a golf elf looks like.
Elf Golf
Obviously an offshoot of redcaps. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2012 05:32:35 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 06:22:04
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| Golf elf...that's embarrassing. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 16:04:49
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As for the Elves, there are several instances in canon (I just came across one yesterday, but damned if I can remember where) wherein Elves do not 'breed true' to one sub-race or the other. They will usually favor one parent highly, but it isn't always a 100% 'racial copy' - ocassionally something 'slips through' from the other group (usually eye and hair color). Thus disapproving that Elven DNA 'works differently' then RW DNA. What you have are some very dominant strains, but thats it.
Also, all Elves/Eladrin supposedly came from a common source - This Illustration is from pg.10 of The Complete Book of Elves, clearly PROVING Elves do evolve, because they have varied GREATLY from a common source. This Picture from pg.29 of tCBoE illustrates the extended Elven family tree, and only includes the major (D&D/TSR canon) branches.
Because they are a 'created' race, they may not evolve in the same way as most natural creatures*, and it may just be an 'internal' evolution (individuals evolve, creating new strains), rather then racial, or it could be that they are so long-lived (another thing that varies greatly from sub-race to sub-race) that they evolve slower. I personally feel the 'First Elves' were nigh-Immortal, but they have lost much of that as their nature has changed.
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Golf elf...that's embarrassing.
Not nearly as much as those pesky tennis Elves.
*I covered these points in my Elves of Faerun articles, which, while not canon, were well-researched, I assure you. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2012 16:10:08 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 19:58:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the Elves, there are several instances in canon (I just came across one yesterday, but damned if I can remember where) wherein Elves do not 'breed true' to one sub-race or the other. They will usually favor one parent highly, but it isn't always a 100% 'racial copy' - ocassionally something 'slips through' from the other group (usually eye and hair color). Thus disapproving that Elven DNA 'works differently' then RW DNA. What you have are some very dominant strains, but thats it.
-Go ahead and find the source, then. Because, the offspring of a Moon Elf and a Sun Elf is either a Moon Elf or a Sun Elf, not a Mun Elf, or a Soon Elf. Tens of thousands of years of mixed breeding amongst themselves have demonstrated Punnett squares are not applicable. Elves in Realmspace have remained true to how they appeared, physically (and theoretically mentally) since the in-game chronologically earliest mentions in sourcebooks and novels. Sun Elves as a whole have retained the characteristics that they have had since coming to Realmspace. Moon Elves as a whole have retained the characteristics they have had since coming to Realmspace.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, all Elves/Eladrin supposedly came from a common source - This Illustration is from pg.10 of The Complete Book of Elves, clearly PROVING Elves do evolve, because they have varied GREATLY from a common source. This Picture from pg.29 of tCBoE illustrates the extended Elven family tree, and only includes the major (D&D/TSR canon) branches.
Because they are a 'created' race, they may not evolve in the same way as most natural creatures*, and it may just be an 'internal' evolution (individuals evolve, creating new strains), rather then racial, or it could be that they are so long-lived (another thing that varies greatly from sub-race to sub-race) that they evolve slower. I personally feel the 'First Elves' were nigh-Immortal, but they have lost much of that as their nature has changed.
-The Complete Book of Elves is not Forgotten Realms canon. We know that Abeir-Toril was not settled by 'Nomadic High Elves' who 'evolved' into Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Wood Elves, Drow, Aquatic Elves (or Avariel, Lythari, and Star Elves, which aren't even mentioned by said source, given they are fairly Forgotten Realms specific). We know conclusively it was "settled" by Wood Elves around -30,000 DR, and then by Sun and Moon Elves around -25,000 DR. Core books can only loosely be taken as Forgotten Realms canon, and when they include information that Forgotten Realms books do not touch on at all, masking a blank that might exist for generics instead. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 21 Feb 2012 19:59:15 |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 21:13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Remember the confusion over drow skin tones in 3e? The text about the drow skin tone in the Underdark sourcebook was changed because artists supposedly couldn't draw/paint/etc ebony/obsidian skinned drow.
 I could have drawn them. You just use an ebony pencil instead of graphite. Problem solved. 
Clearly all these digital artists need to go back to Fundamentals of Art 101 and relearn some basic information about various media. Any given media always has strengths and weaknesses when it comes to art produced using it.
In all reality, my brother is a digital artist and animator for Rythym & Hues in the Los Angeles area and after talking with him about it, some of the problem, in his opinion, is a constraint of the programs but he feels that the majority is the artists understanding of the interplay of light/shadow to sufficiently detail such a dark complexion.
I'll attempt to explain. With the advent of digital art, artists are relying on the program to do the work rather than having a true understanding of how to appropriately capture the image they are trying to show. Digital is quick, a lot faster than pencil & charcoal or paint, and the artwork, IMO, shows it. Learn how to point and click, tag a few lines together to create the shape, paint on a few textures, and presto - digital art [yes, I'm oversimplifying it]. But painting on a texture such as ebony black over the general frame shape can't capture the interplay of light required to detail such a dark complexion. Sometimes, you just need to go 'old school' and put away your computer, pull out your set of 22 pencils, some paper, compressed charcoal and a blending stick and go to town.
Interesting point of view on the rendering of drow and maybe the reason for 3E's depiction of them.
Perhaps the OP's issues with the depiction of Gold Elves stem from a similar issue but my gut feeling is it stems from making the words match the picture instead of the artist taking the time to make the picture match the words. As an amateur artist myself, I think this denotes a certain laziness on the part of the artist but that is just my opinion. From a business sense, it's cheaper to change a few lines of text then reprint an entire picture.
Good Hunting!
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Edited by - Wolfhound75 on 21 Feb 2012 21:23:34 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 21:25:02
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| That Elven Tree of Creation map doesn't even show 'evolution'. It just shows when the Elves were created. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 21:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
It's curious that Moon Elves are mockingly known by the name of Grey Elves by the Sun Elves, the subrace that actually resemble Gray Elves more. What do they mean? Is it that Teu-Tel'Quessir are 'mongrel' descendants of actual Gray Elves? - Moon elves do share physical traits with Gray Elves more that Sun Elves do -
Two distinct uses of 'grey/gray elf', referring to moon elves on Toril and faeries on Oerth etc. That's the 'confusion' the original Elves of Evermeet quote talks about.
Re the art, you also have dwarves not being brown or grey enough -- it's just artists defaulting to familiar caucasian colouring. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 22:38:10
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Random Question:
Is Neverwinter Nights II a point a click style of moving in the game?
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 22:53:52
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| Can be played in various modes. Exploration mode uses point/click movement while character view mode uses either point/click or keyboard keys for movement. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 00:08:19
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Zhai, from the (adequate) Demon Stone brawler videogame and Bob's novel Promise of the Witchking, is an example of an elf with a rather jumbled mixture of traits. She is half drow, half wood elf; has brown eyes but the skintone of a lighter skinned drow, complete with the white hair. It is common for Todd Lockwood to picture drow with a fairly light skintone though, so going by the picture of her could be misleading. Perhaps he meant for her to look completely like a drow, which would be closer to how it is in earlier sources: drow breed true.
I can't remember the source... but wasn't it specifically mentioned that drow males bred true drow from mixed elf drow coupling. Because in that case Zhai (who has a drow mother and a wood elf father) could again be an example of a mixed blooded elf that has features of both parents. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Gold Elven Physical Appearance Confusion
