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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 21:59:47
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This question grows out of my "One Canon, One Story, One Realms" thread, particularly page 15.
Basically, I advanced the concept of listing "popular adventurer deities" in the 5e FR Player's Guide--i.e. a list of 13 or so deities your cleric or paladin PC would be most likely to worship. The advantage of this is that it's easy for new players to get into without having to search through a long, exhaustive list.
It's also going to be noted that you are encouraged to consult the full deity list (presented in the DM Guide) or use any other FR source to find a deity who matches your tastes. We probably don't need to list evil deities in the basic "common gods" listing.
So here's the question:
If you had to pick a small number of deities to include in the 5e Forgotten Realms Players Guide, what would they be? And why?
Here's my list:
Tyr, God of Justice (LG)
Torm, God of Paladins (LG)
Lathander, God of the Morning (NG)
Mielikki, Goddess of the Woodlands (NG)
Tymora, Goddess of Luck (CG)
Sune, Goddess of Love (CG)
Kelemvor, God of Death (LN)
Helm, God of Guardians (LN)
Mystra, Goddess of Magic (N)*
Silvanus, God of Nature (N)
Oghma, God of Wisdom (N)
Tempus, God of War (CN)
Sharess, Goddess of Passion (CN)
Also, racial deities are listed:
Corellon, God of Elves (CG)
Moradin, God of Dwarves (LG)
Yondalla, God of Halflings (NG)
*Note that I list Mystra as "neutral," because she changes alignment periodically but is always at least partly a neutral arbiter. I rather think that if Mystra returns, I hope she ends up being True Neutral or at least Lawful Neutral again. Maybe that's just me.
There. Just sixteen deities (two for each PC-ish alignment, plus Mystra, plus three racial deities) for your standard adventurer to pick from. If you want to boil it down further, take off the ones that are marked with blue text, and you suddenly have just 10 deities in the Player's Guide. Ilmater was a runner-up, but again, he's less common than these core adventuring deities (I also didn't want LG to be too heavily represented). Mielikki and Sharess are on the list because of Drizzt and gamers love Sharess, respectively. I didn't even list evil deities (though I probably would have listed Bane and Loviatar for LE, Mask and Shar for NE, and Cyric and Malar for CE). Players can always choose an "uncommon" deity to worship.
This section of the guide would also note that occasionally gods rise and fall with the passing of years, and players should ask their DM whether a particular god they want to choose is appropriate for that particular campaign.
Remember that the kind of baseline assumption is: "These are the deities an adventurer is most likely to worship. Experienced players who know more about the Realms or are willing to delve into the lore can choose any FR deity from the expanded list to worship."
(For the purposes of this discussion, let us assume that ALL Realms deities will get coverage in the 5e DM FR book or a 5e F&P sort of book, and that this list will be substantive enough to provide portfolios, domains, favored weapons, etc., whatever you need to build your divine PC.)
So what's your list?
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 22:43:48
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| While not necessarily necessary for the Player's Guide, I definitely think that Selune and Shar should be in the Campaign Guide. Also, it might be good to add "selfish" evil deities (opposed to "destroy-the-world" evil deities) to the list, at least one per an alignment. Mask would be good for this because his is the god of thieves and also the god of the protagonist in Paul's wildly famous Cale series (the first Realms antihero to steal my love from Drizzt). |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 22:49:41
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Ah, I forgot about Selune--not sure why. There are a LOT of gods in the setting. 
I considered putting Mask on the list--he was actually in my first draft. Maybe he should indeed go on there.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 23:35:38
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Not thrilled with the lack of evil deities, but I do like that you are assuming the PCs will be 'good'.
Right now I am having an internal struggle between my inner DM, who only wants good PCs (evil PCs tend to be 'show hogs' and take from everyone else's experience, IMHO), and my 'inner fanboi', who would like a more well-rounded representation of the FR deities.
DM wins - keep the 'core group' mostly good, with a neutral or two. At least throw in a the gnome god of thieves, so we can have a rogue deity without having to go 'evil' (and also still represent the Gnomes, whom I never liked, but I miss them, annoying though they are). I consider them one of the core races.
Now, if we apply the 4e/post-plague material to the guide - which we should, since they have already stated their support of that era - then I suppose we should get something for the tiefling, genasi, and Dragonborn. Asmodeus is obvious for the tieflings (I know they needn't be evil, but at lest it gives a nod to their heritage), and the dragonborn should probably get some aspect of Bahamut (and Tiamet for the evil ones), but Genasi become a conundrum. The Elemental Powers are Primordials now. Maybe use the Noble Djinn? Have the four 'Dgen lords' ever been detailed, aside from some little bit in the Zakhara stuff (that never actually names them).
Asmodeus, bane, and Zehir are all 4e core, and were in 4e FR, so they should have a place on the list, since we are supposed to be all about compromise these days.
I'd also like Kord - the FR war gods are too much alike. I want a shirtless brawler for our pantheon (and Barbs need something). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2012 01:55:14 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 23:39:48
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Eilistraee
Corellon
selune
sehainine
Torm
HELM
yondalla( I hate chauntea)
mielikki
mystra
bahamut
red knight
tempus
maybe more to be added later.
but imo, they should just to a deity book for 5e and just list every deity + their domains with NO description... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
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http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 23:59:05
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| The problem with a limited list like this is that you're emphasizing the human gods of Faerûn over all others. Part of the setting's flavor are its multitude of culturally distinc pantheons and I'd hate to see the downsizing of gods that started with the 4E Realms continued into 5th-Edition. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 00:03:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
Everything like it was pre-Sellplague, but with Eilistraee The Masked Lady instead of Vhaerun.
This doesn't really answer the question (also what edition are you talking about?). I would include a comprehensive list of FR's gods in the FR DM's Guide.
What I'm asking about is "what's the PC shortlist?"
I would suggest that Eilistraee/the Masked Lady is a sufficiently specialized deity, that a player who wants to run a drow or a priest of said deity is probably going to want to look at the DM's list anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not thrilled with the lack of evil deities, but I do like that you are assuming the PCs will be 'good'.
I'm firmly of the opinion that playing Good or Neutral PCs is the baseline of the game, but that there should be options for playing evil PCs. The DM's book will include listings of all evil deities, and they will be just as easy for a PC to choose as any other deity. The idea of the "player core" deity list is to give new players a chance to pick a deity without being overwhelmed by the choices.
quote:
Right now I am having an internal struggle between my inner DM, who only wants good PCs (evil PCs tend to be 'show hogs' and take from everyone else's experience, IMHO), and my 'inner fanboi', who would like a more well-rounded representation of the FR deities.
Well, you *would* get that, just not in the Player's book.
Good call on the gnomes, by the way--probably Garl should be included in the racial deities area.
quote:
Now, if we apply the 4e/post-plague material to the guide - which we should, since they have already stated their support of that era - then I suppose we should get something for the tiefling, genasi, and Dragonborn.
I appreciate the egalitarian aim, but I don't think we need to, actually. All three of these races are extremely rare and have no unifying religion. Tieflings tend to worship the gods of the parents that raised them (or go sneaky-sneak over to an evil deity, if they swing that way).
FR's native genasi and native dragonborn (by which I include all dragonish things, like saurials, half-dragons, weredragons, etc., which can be mechanically considered "dragonborn") are rare enough they don't have unifying deities--also, if the player is going to run one of those, then probably s/he is the sort of player who will gladly look at the extended list in the DM's Guide.
The genasi and dragonborn who have actual empires (from Abeir) don't have organized religion, by and large. They are specifically described as distrusting gods (seeing them as just like primordials). So it would be extremely rare to see a priest of one of these races, and if you do, odds are it's one of the common adventuring deities anyway.
quote:
Asmodeus, bane, and Zehir are all 4e core, and were in 4e FR, so they should have a place on the list, since we are supposed to be all about compromise these days.
The Bane of 4e core and the Bane of FR are not necessarily the same god--they just have the same name. But yes, I see what you're saying.
Asmodeus, Bane, Shar, Cyric, and Zehir are probably the most commonly worshipped evil deities in the Realms.
quote:
I'd also like Kord - the FR war gods are too much alike. I want a shirtless brawler for our pantheon (and Barbs need something).
Heh!
Interesting that you see the "war gods" as being too much alike. I've always thought the Red Knight was the most interesting "war god" in the Realms--unless of course you consider Helm a "war god."
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Eilistraee
Corellon
selune
sehainine
Torm
HELM
yondalla( I hate chauntea)
mielikki
mystra
bahamut
red knight
tempus
Thanks for the list!
quote:
but imo, they should just to a deity book for 5e and just list every deity + their domains with NO description...
That would be a pretty short book. I mean, there are a lot of deities, but if each deity gets a single line on the page, then we're looking at 5-6 pages tops.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 00:10:59
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I have two lists. The first are the gods I personally would think to be the most prevalent and relevant to worship amongst adventurers in my Realms (Year of Lightning Storms 1374). I won't consider if these clergies are also able to support adventurers, but I think these are most likely to produce heroic adventuring types amongst the churches. The second are the gods that have been popular for players at my gaming tables.
Relevant Gods
Tymorra
Mask
Shaundakul
Selune
Mystra
Oghma
Mielikki
Lathander Soon To Be Aumanator
Sune
Helm
Hoar
Torm
Tyr
Popular Gods
Corellon
Helm
Ilmater
Grumbar
Sehanine Moonbow
Mystra
Siamorphe
Lliira
Red Knight
Tymorra
Waukeen
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 00:26:41
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I haven't really looked at balancing the alignments here, but I think it's less important to do that as long as you have a prevalence of neutral alignments rather than a prevalence of extreme alignments. Besides, they might change the whole alignment system again for 5e.
Azuth (LN) - instead of Mystra - Azuth is the god of spellcasters, and serves the needs of PCs - serving Mystra directly is serving the advancement of magic, which is a more exclusive thing - this could comfortably go either way, just saying my vote would go to giving Azuth a purpose rather than making him the footnote he's been thus far.
Lathander (NG) - all-purpose deity of Good - dawn and renewal translate into new opportunities (to do good, to advance a cause or personal power, anything really), a concept which is a big part of adventuring - vitality and athletics also makes Lathander an attractive choice for the physical classes - also, Lathander's sunlight aspect is obviously very practical against the undead foes that adventurers regularly confront and sometimes need divine assistance in defeating.
Lliira (CG) - adventuring is all about freedom, from laws and oppression, from being tied down to a farm in some boring village, etc - a joyful follower of Lliira will be an extremely welcome addition to any party confronting doom and gloom, to the point where they probably get preferential treatment.
Mask (change to CN rather than NE) - for rogue-types - Chaotic makes more sense than Neutral for Mask, and while he's "in it to win it" by whatever means necessary he doesn't need to be deliberately evil - especially considering his recent-and-oh-gods-let-it-be-OVER relationship with Cyric, changing his personality a bit is entirely believable, but the point is he needs to get back to being the god of Rogues, without trying to be a god of Evil.
Mielikki (NG) - for nature-types - I guess she's more about rangers, while Silvanus is more about druids, but having two prominent nature deities is an unnecessary redundancy given that we're talking about a short-list here - I personally think 5e should pick one nature deity and declare her/him more prominent for adventurers (of both classes if we have both druid and ranger classes in 5e) who further the cause of nature.
Milil (NG) - for bard-types - bards are specifically listed in Oghma's portfolio in 3e; Milil makes more sense to me given bards' leaning on music rather than other forms of lore/expression - like Azuth/Mystra, I think this can be fine either way.
Edit: sneaking Red Knight (LN) in because Erik's totally right and because planning and strategy are frequently necessary for any adventurer who wants to survive long enough to tell their tales in taprooms.
Shaundakul (CN) - in my opinion, Shaundakul is very important to adventurers, and not just in the northwest of the Realms; other regions have undoubtedly had similar powers with other names all this time, and uniting them as Shaundakul makes good sense - exploration is near the heart of adventuring... wrapped tightly around "killing stuff and getting epic lootz."
Tempus (N instead of CN?) - for Neutral fighter types who find Torm too constricting and Lathander too shiny.
Torm (LG) - for Lawful physical classes, including but not limited to paladins - we haven't really heard much about Torm in the past, because others have been taking more decisive actions (and blunders) and maybe he's rising to prominence over the interloper Tyr.
Tymora (CG) - Tymora is the quintessential adventurer's deity - her portfolio is composed entirely of things which are central to adventuring.
Personally, I'd like to see psionics be part of the game again, at which point maybe Auppenser or whoever it was can make another appearance.
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The problem with a limited list like this is that you're emphasizing the human gods of Faerûn over all others. Part of the setting's flavor are its multitude of culturally distinc pantheons and I'd hate to see the downsizing of gods that started with the 4E Realms continued into 5th-Edition.
I absolutely agree with this, but it may be as easy as rearranging a few portfolios. Meaning: pick a deity from each of the other race's pantheons, and make their portfolios cover the concepts of opportunity, exploration, freedom... basically racial versions of Tymora + Shaundakul. Not that those are the only ideas that matter to demihuman adventurers, but they're things which mark them as different from the norm. Dwarves already have an innate sense of duty, loyalty, hearth, orcsmashing, etc... they don't need Torm or Tempus or most of the other human adventuring deities. Elves already have magic, nature, music, etc. What makes an adventurer, among those races, is wanderlust and a desire for personal achievement that they can't find in their home cave or tree or burrow.
Plus humans are more numerous (and some would say more attention-deficit) than the other races; it makes sense for them to have more deities. One main adventuring deity for each of the other races, plus several for humans, works well imo. Provided that we're not in any sense throwing any of the other deities away.
All just my perhaps-overzealously-stated opinion. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 15 Feb 2012 00:33:10 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 00:51:32
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Eric, your list is a good start, but I don't think FR should shy away from including a decent line-up of evil gods (even in the initial 5E FR book, even a player book, characters would have heard of the greater gods at least). FR has been criticized for being a bit good heavy with anemic evil deities as it is. I also think the neutral gods should have a bit more representation, as they are useful for a larger range of alignments. If you spin them as having two strong sect like for Helm or especially Hoar/Assuran (poetic justice or cold vengeance) you essentially have two very different gods.
I think any setting can handle at least 20-25 deities, with maybe 30 if including exarchs, demigods, archfiends and the like. Golarion has 20 greater gods, 16 lesser gods, and scores of archfiends and pseudo-divine beings and spirits. Sure not all of them are in the campaign book, but a lot of the greater and lesser gods are mentioned there. Too much of a reductionist standpoint is a disservice to the richness of the setting. The caution should just be not listing hundreds of deities in a chart like in previous editions. It gave people the impression of too many names for the sake of it.
To that end, perhaps some of the good deities could be condensed. For instance, as much as I liked the idea of the Triad, it doesn't jive with trying to streamline things down. Torm and Tyr overlap a lot without the Triad concept, and no Illmater on this round.
If we're going to two examples for each alignment, they should ideally be very different beings. The contrast between Lathander and Mielikki is good, as is Tempus and Sharess, and Kelemvor and Helm, etc. I guess the biggest overlap remains Tyr and Torm, which makes sense given their pre-Spellplague hierarchy. Tyr was noted as the only LG Greater god in the old days, perhaps highlighting the difficulty of that path.
Perhaps here is a good opportunity to make use of the demi-human deities more. Moradin is LG, if he starts to diversify his worship, he could fill one of the LG spots without much effort. Same for the other demi-human deities. We had some racial gods with worshippers of other races in previous editions, so it’s not unheard of, just not to such a degree. I’ve seen other settings take this approach with good results.
Regarding a discussion on the One Realms thread, about the redundancy of Helm. I think he's the perfect deity for gruff mercenary types or loyal until death guards. Who else are they going to worship? Bane? Evil. Tyr/Torm? Too goodly. Kelemvor? Too death-oriented. I still feel Helm's (adventure-centric) niche was more useful than even some of the Triad or even more clearly defined deities like Lathander (can divide up his aspects amongst Sune, Corellon, Selune and Torm/Tyr with little effect other than missing the NG quota).
Also, I agree with Markus, there really isn’t a deity like Kord in the Realms, nothing for the jolly, brawling, devil-may-care warrior types, which is a major adventurer archetype. A god of might and prowess, of kicking evil’s butt and taking names. Maybe we should apotheose Minsc. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 00:58:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The problem with a limited list like this is that you're emphasizing the human gods of Faerûn over all others. Part of the setting's flavor are its multitude of culturally distinc pantheons and I'd hate to see the downsizing of gods that started with the 4E Realms continued into 5th-Edition.
Which of the demihuman gods would you *like* to see included, Brian? |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 01:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
This doesn't really answer the question
Maybe I've worded it incorrectly. What I meant is that I would like to see all the deities from pre-Sellplague Realms. I don't care that it's impossible and that there's 4th ed Realms in-between 3.X ed and 5th ed. I can always dream.
quote:
also what edition are you talking about?
What does it matter?
Imp: No, it doesn't answer the question... although I agree with your counter-question re: edition. The following quote is from Erik's original post (bold mine).
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
...
If you had to pick a small number of deities to include in the 5e Forgotten Realms Players Guide, what would they be? And why?
...
So what's your list?
Cheers
I'd have to agree with Erik's list, but there would also have to be some evil gods in there just to show that the pantheon is balanced. I would include Mask, Shar, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul... and yes, I know Bhaal and Myrkul are dead in canon.
Oh, and it's not just you, Erik. I would have Mystra as CN, actually, simply because of the nature of what happened during the Spellplague, the ToT, and the Fall of Netheril. Three times she has died (and if you think she's not at least partially the same deity in all three returns, I think you're missing something Ed has been hinting at for the past 25-plus years, but maybe that's just me), and all three times, magic has gone completely haywire, in slightly different ways. This has to have taken a toll on even a divine psyche, and I suspect that she has slowly realized that embracing the chaos rather than trying to fight it (she was LN in 1E, remember?) will allow her to better prevent or control future such events. Oh, and also include Azuth, LN as always. The High One should not be forgotten in the shadow of Our Lady of Mysteries.
Anyway, that's my list... much the same as Erik's, just a bit longer. Part of me says to include Lathander and Amaunator as well... and then another part of me asks when it stops. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 01:53:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The problem with a limited list like this is that you're emphasizing the human gods of Faerûn over all others. Part of the setting's flavor are its multitude of culturally distinc pantheons and I'd hate to see the downsizing of gods that started with the 4E Realms continued into 5th-Edition.
I don't want to see it either, Brian. My suspicion is that Erik wants a group of gods in the core FR book who are more than a list of names, alignments, primary race of worshippers, and portfolios, and I assume that the other deities would follow in a supplement. My preferred method of doing this would be to leave the deities entirely for their own book, and have that book come out simultaneously with the FR core book... but then, that forces players to buy two books... good for WotC's bottom line, not good for customer satisfaction.
I think Erik might have the right way to go about this... but making those choices about who gets in the core book and who is left out is going to be tough, for reasons noted by BRJ above and by my previous post... and others. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 02:32:47
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ooops Erik... thanks for catching that.
I MEant they should do a deity book with all of them detailed in it AND only list them in the campaign setting book with only their names, alignments, worshipers and domains and no description.
bot |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 02:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The problem with a limited list like this is that you're emphasizing the human gods of Faerûn over all others. Part of the setting's flavor are its multitude of culturally distinc pantheons and I'd hate to see the downsizing of gods that started with the 4E Realms continued into 5th-Edition.
this +1
that did not go over to well in 4e imo.
say what you will agree or not... idc |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 02:50:26
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
ooops Erik... thanks for catching that.
I MEant they should do a deity book with all of them detailed in it AND only list them in the campaign setting book with only their names, alignments, worshipers and domains and no description.
bot
As much as I'd like that, as an experienced fan of the Realms, I think it would be overwhelming for a new player. I think Erik has the right idea here; present a small group of player-character-oriented deities, with a reasonable degree of detail, and give the players something to "get into" the setting with without having to buy a second book just to cover religion in the Realms. That second book is an absolute must-compile, but it shouldn't be necessary in order to start a campaign with a cleric (or druid) in the party. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 02:54:39
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| I actually think that Zehir should be pulled from the Realms, because (IIRC) according to BRJ, he was not supposed to be in the 4e Realms, but someone @ Obsidian messed up and put his name in the title of the second Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion; and from then on he was put into the 4e Realms. (Brian, feel free to correct me if I am remembering incorrectly.) There were already perfectly good snake deities before Zehir came along. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 03:06:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I actually think that Zehir should be pulled from the Realms, ...
The entry for the "Towers of Night' in the FRCG notes that Zehir is an interloper deity. So this could conceivably be an option, depending on how you spin it with respect to the existing Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 15 Feb 2012 03:08:29 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 03:16:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I actually think that Zehir should be pulled from the Realms, because (IIRC) according to BRJ, he was not supposed to be in the 4e Realms, but someone @ Obsidian messed up and put his name in the title of the second Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion; and from then on he was put into the 4e Realms. (Brian, feel free to correct me if I am remembering incorrectly.) There were already perfectly good snake deities before Zehir came along.
ummmm you heard from someone who heard incorrectly... or I did one.
Yes Zehir was brought into the realms by Obsidian via NWN2. From what I heard is that Seth was supposed to be the big bad guy but someone @ Atari was looking at the 4e phb and told them that Zehir was the evil god of snake people not Seth.
and taking him out of the Realms imo would be the right thing to do.... but we'd need a good backstory for it..... or doungrade him to a next to nobody and under the fangs of Seth
was Atari not Obsidian who goofed and only becuase they were looking at 4e trash for a 3.x game.
Obsidian was also under the impression that Neverwinter was to survive the spell plague.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 15 Feb 2012 03:17:44 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 03:19:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
ooops Erik... thanks for catching that.
I MEant they should do a deity book with all of them detailed in it AND only list them in the campaign setting book with only their names, alignments, worshipers and domains and no description.
bot
As much as I'd like that, as an experienced fan of the Realms, I think it would be overwhelming for a new player. I think Erik has the right idea here; present a small group of player-character-oriented deities, with a reasonable degree of detail, and give the players something to "get into" the setting with without having to buy a second book just to cover religion in the Realms. That second book is an absolute must-compile, but it shouldn't be necessary in order to start a campaign with a cleric (or druid) in the party.
true.... then add a short description then.... do what they did in the 3.x campaign book. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 03:32:52
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| Pretty much ALL deities pre 4e. I wan FULL Elven and Drow pantheons. NO aspects. |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 03:59:59
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I would at least put all of the gods in a PG to the 5e Realms in a list (listing name, portfolio, domains, favored weapon).
As for who I would provide expanded descriptions for in said PG, it would be thus (not all canon, includes things I would like to see change):
Good Deities
Torm (LG) - Replaces Tyr as god of justice, retains other aspects as well
Lathander (NG)
Tymora (CG)
Mielikki (CG)
Neutral Deities
Tempus (N) - God of War (war/battle is his provenence, not to fret over the moral/ethical details, hence the alignment change)
Mystra (N) - Goddess of Magic (alignment change for the same reasons as Tempus in regards to Magic)
Kelemvor (LN) - God of Death (without the baggage of his former mortality, let him get over it finally)
Auppenser OR Savras (LN) - God of Enlightenment (suitable for monks, psionicists)
Evil Deities
Bane (LE) - The FR Bane, not the 4e core Bane (if they are different)
Shar (NE)
Malar (CE)
Talos (CE)
Of course, I would also like to see the return of Myrkul (taking Velsharoon's place) and Bhaal, and the elimination of Cyric completely. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 04:10:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
Pretty much ALL deities pre 4e. I wan FULL Elven and Drow pantheons. NO aspects.
+2 |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 04:24:46
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I am assuming for the purpose of this list that we are looking at the list of all realms deities. I make this assumption since almost all posts mention deities that got randomly exploded during the spell plague.
Common Adventuring Deities by alignment
Lawful Good:
Torm, God of duty, honor, Paladins
Neutral Good:
Mielikki, Goddess of Forest, Forest creatures, rangers, dryads, autumn
Lathander, God of Spring, dawn, birth, renewal, creativity, youth, vitality, athletics
Chaotic Good:
Selune, Goddess of the Moon, Stars, navigation, wanders, seekers
Tymora, Goddess of Good fortune, skill, victory, adventures and adventuring
Lawful Neutral:
Helm, God of Guardians, protectors, protection
Azuth, God of Wizards, Mages, Spell casters in general
Neutral:
Mystra*, Goddess of Magic, spells, the weave
Oghma, God of Knowledge, invention, inspiration bards
Chaotic Neutral:
Shaundakul, God of Travel, exploration, long-range traders, caravans, windghosts
Tempus, God of War, battle, warriors
Neutral Evil:
Mask God of thieves, thievery, shadows
Tyr is not included above, because he is very similar to Torm and if PC paladins want a change of pace deity, they can research that in the FR Campaign Guide. Also Helm and Moradin both make excellent paladin deities and arguably since elves can be paladins Corellon Larethian would make a good paladin deity.
Racial deities:
Corellon Larethian, God of Elves (CG)
Moradin, God of Dwarves (LG)
Eilistraee**, Goddess of Non-evil drow, Song beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, moonlight(CG)
It is probably noteworthy that the halfing/gnome deities were not included. In my experience, players rarely find these deities interesting and would often select a deity list in the adventuring section instead of their racial deity.
Deities that should be mentioned at least in the culture section of the player's guide. The reason for this is while not many adventures worship these deities, they probably would be familiar with them from living in day to day life.
Sune - Goddess of Love, Marriage(CG)
Chauntea - Goddess of Agriculture(NG)
Gond - God of craftsman(N)
Umberlee - Goddess of Oceans, currents, waves, sea winds(CE)
* - Mystra should be included regardless of her alignment. She is rather central to Faerun and Mystra/the weave is/was one of the defining features of Forgotten Realms.
** - Since the player stats for the drow will almost certainly be in the realm's player guide again, it makes sense to include the deity that best explains why a drow character should not be killed on sight in the player's guide. Also, expanding Eilistraee's influence could make drow character's fit into more adventuring parties. For instance, the masked Lady concept (while squander in the novels) could make Eilistraee a deity with boarder appeal. Focusing less on dancing nude in the woods and more on the conflict with Lolth could make for an interesting fight over the hearts and souls of the drow.
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Tarlyn Embersun |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 05:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
It is probably noteworthy that the halfing/gnome deities were not included. In my experience, players rarely find these deities interesting and would often select a deity list in the adventuring section instead of their racial deity.
To the extent that this is true, with all due respect to everyone concerned, it's a big problem. Your players are essentially choosing to be short humans. Nothin wrong with bein short, but they're missing out on a chunk of the role-playing experience if they only play humans (regardless of the word written in the Race box on the character sheet).
- Halfling deities should be written in a way that's interesting to players who want to play halfling characters.
- Players of halflings should get far enough into the halfling mindset that they find their racial pantheons to be worthy of respect. I think it's a legitimate statement that halflings should only be following human deities when it seems clear to them that it's actually a halfling deity which has been adopted by humans. Otherwise it's misanthropy... which could be a shtick for one sad soul, but it shouldn't be rampant among all players-of-halflings at anyone's table.
- The halfling mindset needs to be explored somewhere (likely the PH, not a setting book) that's readily accessible to players, so that the full diversity of playing different races is clear. Otherwise we lose the whole value of having these perspectives in the game.
And of course that goes for gnomes, too, probably even more strongly. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 05:28:06
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| hey I liked Yondala |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 15:24:19
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To clarify again, this discussion assumes all FR deities are included in the 5e FR. See the OP. I think this is a reasonable assumption, seeing as WotC has made it clear all eras will see at least some support.
What I'm asking about here is who are the most useful deities go present in the player's guide; the dm's guide will include all deities, and there should be a f&p style book about gods and divine characters: "Divinity in the Realms."
In putting together the player's guide, it's more a question of efficiency. I don't want 80% of players to have to buy and page through 10 extra pages of deities that don't mean anything to their characters. I want to fill those ten pages with things that all Realms fans will want. Much better to have a separate divinity book, which players who want to use will seek out. The player's guide will contain a reference to that supplement.
Also, I really like Tarlyn's list, and yes, non-human deities do need to be included.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 15:33:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also, I really like Tarlyn's list, and yes, non-human deities do need to be included.
I concur, Tarlyn's is a good list. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 15:42:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also, I really like Tarlyn's list, and yes, non-human deities do need to be included.
I concur, Tarlyn's is a good list.
And I, as well.
I particularly like the option of alignments attached to the inclusion of Mystra. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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5e FR Deities: What's your list?
