| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 18:14:27
|
|
So I started out with 3e, and when I read older supplements (mostly 2e) I'm stuck by how small the population is listed as. Which do you think were more realistic, the 2e population figures or 3e? I for one like the 3e measurements, I like teeming swarms of people even in rustic settings.
|
|
|
Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1303 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 18:18:41
|
| One thing that always confused me was when some books or sources called Waterdeep the largest city in the Realms, but then Calimsham had many times more people. The population stats in the 2ed FRA book seemed about right to me..I can't see a million people in a city in the FR setting in a small walled in area. But then, I guess clerics could stop plagues from decimating the population the way it did in Medieval Europe. |
 |
|
|
Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 18:52:33
|
| Indeed, disease control would be stronger, plus I don't think there are any cities in the 3e FRCG that actually have a million people. A hundred thousands, yes, but that is quite possible with medieval cities. Moscow in the 1400s had a population of more than two-hundred-thousand, which is more than any city in Faerun. |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 22 Feb 2012 18:53:58 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 19:44:40
|
The population was reduced, I think, partly due to a desire to be more 'realistic' to peole with a vague conception of medieval history.
Given that the military forces of many of the affected areas were not given a corresponding decrease, the 3e population is actually less realistic, in that it often has a degree of military participation that is economically unsustainable for extended period of time, even for a modern society.*
We also have plentiful canon evidence that Faerun does not have a medieval economy and that acricultural land yield is far higher than what average medieval yields, whether we go by acrage or per worker.
Thus, increased urbanisation is expected and realistic, particularly with the incredible level of trade going on the Realms (at least pre 4e). I liked the old numbers, mostly.
In cases where there is a good canon explanation for a population increase or decrease, I'll use the newer numbers. In cases where there is no, I'll assume that the newer numbers count only free home-owners and their families living inside the walls (or equivalent), excluding acricultural labourers living in 'suburban villages' within walking distance from town, slaves, initerant workers renting living space and so forth. The 2e numbers would then be the total of people counting themselves as citizens of that city.
*You can manage to keep that many men under arms, perhaps, but your economy would thereby compare to neighbours in pretty much the same way as North Korea does. And this means that your more numerous army would be less effective than a smaller, adequately supported one would be. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 19:45:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Indeed, disease control would be stronger, plus I don't think there are any cities in the 3e FRCG that actually have a million people. A hundred thousands, yes, but that is quite possible with medieval cities. Moscow in the 1400s had a population of more than two-hundred-thousand, which is more than any city in Faerun.
And Ancient cities could go over a million, with many of them being several hundred thousand.
The medieval era on Earth is a specific period where urbanisation was discouraged for economic reasons. Comparisons with the Realms are nonsensical, as those economic reasons mostly don't apply. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 19:55:12
|
I know it's nonsensical to compare them, I'm just countering claims that the cities could not be that big by showing they could be that big even urbanization in Faerun was hemmed in by medieval limits.
And rural population figures are probably not even close to accurate, what with demihumans, nomads (even in civilized areas), barbarians, and monstrous humanoids and fey peoples. Who knows how many people are crammed into Faerun? It could very well be billions, if you're counting creatures with an Intelligence score of 3 or more.
And sometimes the population breakdowns by race that are listed in the FRCG make no sense. Apparently Cormyr, for example, is ten percent half-elf and four percent elf, and that just doesn't reflect the Cormyr we see in print. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 20:03:03
|
One thing to remember is a census is a snap shot of population. As too Waterdeep I recall reading somewhere that most of the high population existed during the trading season, that the year rould residents was far smaller.
As too realistic, food supplies sometimes appear to be a problem for land space. There again FR does work under different rules of nature and science. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 20:07:39
|
| The older figures were probably based on Ed's Realms - that would make a good question for him. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 21:55:03
|
| Didn't 2E Calimport have over 1 million people? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 22:27:38
|
Over 2 million according to FR3 Empires of the Sands, but that's widely thought to be exaggeration of the my-thing-is-biggest-and-best sort on Scott Haring's part -- in Calimport Steven Schend wrote, 'Calimport, as the largest city of Faerūn both by size and population, has always boasted of its status. However, with the rise of Syl-Pasha Pesarkhal, the official figures dropped precipitously. Where Calimport once held over two million citizens, the census now stands at roughly 212,000 persons, 95% of which are human.'
There were a few other anomalies like that one, but the exact motivation of the 3E overhaul is still part of the published Realms' murky under-history. |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 22:29:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
As too realistic, food supplies sometimes appear to be a problem for land space. There again FR does work under different rules of nature and science.
Only going by medieval numbers for land yield, again.
Assuming Ancient North African yields through much of Faerun's prime farmland, we get a considerable surplus for good years. The 16th+ century shipping and trade then take care of distributing the surplus to less fertile areas.
This does mean that some places are not self-sufficient in terms of food production, which is a very unmedieval state of affairs, but that's no problem, because there is little about Faerun that resembles the historical Middle Ages. And we have canonical statements that certain settlements are not self-sufficient in terms of foodstuffs, but import most or all of their food. We even have canonical support that whole nations have a food deficit, but as long as they have other things to trade, it makes little difference, as their neighbours (even if they are otherwise rather hostile) are happy to make a profit in selling them grain.
And note that this is assuming only that Faerun has a higher average land yield that is still within historical norms for Earth. If we assume that the use of divine magic to improve productivity and growth* and the use of arcane magic (or theoretically divine as well) to control weather conditions** can provide equal or better yield as modern farming techniques on Earth, we find that Faerun could feed an order of magnitude more people, at the very least, without feeling the pinch.
Famines in Faerun appear to be usually caused by massive magical disasters causing a simultaneous failure of crops across a major part of the continent or, alternatively, a localised economic failure leading to people being unable to buy food, which might exist in plentiful supply reasonably close by. These localised economic failures are usually the result of warfare or misrule by tyrants.
*Something Chauntean priests have done in novels and sourcebooks and which would make sense as one of their primary sources of revenue and influence, i.e. if your nation, fief or holding doesn't honour the goddess and contribute from your surplus harvest to the greater good, the priests simply won't come and bless your fields for the next sowing.
**Which the Red Wizards of Thay, for one, engage in on such a massive scale that it affects the climate of the whole eastern Inner Sea. The effects on Thayan productivity is evidently massive, as they are the granary for most of their neighbours. If Thay was ever united enough so that they could simply forbid all Thayans to sell grain to a neighbour that refuses to abide by their will, they'd be able to enforce their regional hegemony without force of arms. But since most of the landowners are Red Wizards or their pawns and they eternally jockey for position, there is always someone willing to accept foreign gold, magic or goods for his extra grain and thus convert storage costs into something more immediately useful to him in the battle for internal prestige and influence. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 22 Feb 2012 22:30:04 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 23:49:24
|
LOL - maybe the Dwarves weren't the only ones doing the 'Thunder Blessing'. 
{Bwow chika - bwow bwow}
Also, aren't there several cities larger (by population) then Calimport in 3e? Isn't the largest of them all down there by the Border kingdoms (Suldolphor?)
Which is VERY interesting, considering how little we know about it, and the proposal that 5eFR might be centered in that region.
EDIT: Nevermind - it got nuked in 4e, and Skuld was #1 anyway.
EDIT2: Thats weird - it's actually Waterdeep, which I once said, and was shot-down over on the WotC site (people provided proof of my error). Now I have to wonder if they were quoting 2e figures, rather then 3e (the pop. numbers in the Wiki seem to be from 3e). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2012 23:59:47 |
|
|
|
rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 00:09:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
One thing that always confused me was when some books or sources called Waterdeep the largest city in the Realms, but then Calimsham had many times more people. The population stats in the 2ed FRA book seemed about right to me..I can't see a million people in a city in the FR setting in a small walled in area. But then, I guess clerics could stop plagues from decimating the population the way it did in Medieval Europe.
The reason the population numbers of Calimshan went down is that the earlier numbers included all the slaves, which was on average I believe between 3 to 4 slaves per person. In the later numbers, ie 3rd and 3.5, the slaves were not counted in the official population numbers and I don't believe non-land owners were counter either. I would have to find the info again between getting ready for this weekends d&d game...
|
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Population Increase
