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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:03:54
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Does Boobmail give you a +1 to breast-feeding?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:16:10
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Dennis, 'fashion' isn't limited to what modern, affluent, English-speaking people with a strong degree of cultural influence from London and California find attractive and tasteful.
In the course of human events, people have pierced pretty much every fold of skin on their bodies; mutilated ears, lips, noses, necks, feet and genitalia; ritually scarred themselves; injected toxic substances into themselves and done innumerable other things, all in the name of conforming to their cultural ideas of beauty and the epheremal dictates of fashion.
A fantasy world where rings were considered one of the few forms of ornamentation 'allowed' would be much less fantastic than our world.
Unlike the design of tools, where form must to some degree follow function, fashion is not limited by 'common sense'*, by what 'works' or by a single cultural set of aesthetic judgment. If it is possible that someone, somewhere, might find it attractive, it could become fashion.
Non-functional martial regalia serving as jewelry has been a fashion at some times and places in the real world. According to Ed, such fashions have also swept the Realms.
If you don't like it, don't use it in your Realms, but kindly avoid calling the real world 'unrealistic'. It kind of robs the word of any meaning.
*Mostly a collection of prejudices and misconceptions learned early enough so that they are never consciously questioned. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:21:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Does Boobmail give you a +1 to breast-feeding?
Perhaps. There's this anime (never watched it, just read the description) where the hero draws power from breast milk. And NOT his mother's, but other girls'. It's not porn, btw. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:24:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Dennis, 'fashion' isn't limited to what modern, affluent, English-speaking people with a strong degree of cultural influence from London and California find attractive and tasteful.
That's precisely why I said not limited. I didn't say having skimpy clothes is not fashionable. It was and still is, in some places, fantastical and RW alike. Only that it's not the only thing that is. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:28:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Dennis, 'fashion' isn't limited to what modern, affluent, English-speaking people with a strong degree of cultural influence from London and California find attractive and tasteful.
That's precisely why I said not limited. I didn't say having skimpy clothes is not fashionable. It was and still is, in some places, fantastical and RW alike. Only that it's not the only thing that is.
So it was basically a strawman? |
[url=http://expensiveautomobile.com/2009-bmw-3-series-uk-version/]2009 bmw 3 series uk version[/url] [url=http://expensiveautomobile.com/2009-bmw-3-series-touring-uk-version/]2009 bmw 3 series touring uk version[/url] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:48:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Dennis, 'fashion' isn't limited to what modern, affluent, English-speaking people with a strong degree of cultural influence from London and California find attractive and tasteful.
That's precisely why I said not limited. I didn't say having skimpy clothes is not fashionable. It was and still is, in some places, fantastical and RW alike. Only that it's not the only thing that is.
So it was basically a strawman?
It appears your inclination to treat all arguments a strawman. Kinda tiresome at times. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 20:36:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Dennis, 'fashion' isn't limited to what modern, affluent, English-speaking people with a strong degree of cultural influence from London and California find attractive and tasteful.
That's precisely why I said not limited. I didn't say having skimpy clothes is not fashionable. It was and still is, in some places, fantastical and RW alike. Only that it's not the only thing that is.
So it was basically a strawman?
It appears your inclination to treat all arguments a strawman. Kinda tiresome at times.
Extremely |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 21:26:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
It appears your inclination to treat all arguments a strawman. Kinda tiresome at times.
My post didn't mention skimpy outfits in any way. You posted something about skimpy outfits. Kinda a strawman.
And maybe it's a language barrier, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
MT's and my links are images of RS in skimpy outfit with hardly nothing but boobmail. You chimed in and mentioned about fashion. So I thought you were referring to RS's kind of clothing. I'm not averse to such type of dress. (Isn't Wonderwoman beautiful in her costume?) But to have an armor that only covers the boobs sounds ridiculous. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 02:55:32
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that is a good question... its not like combat is two guys or gals standing in one place whacking the other with a big stick..... oh wait its not there is alot of fancy footwork and dodging going on too....
its aridiculous style of armor thats not meant to be armor and thus not effective in any sort of protection that boggles the mind and screws the eyes when used....
DM: you face down REd Sonya in her signature scale mail bikini
male player: stalls rolling for initiave and failes giving thought along the line of omg what is this characcter thinking
DM: you take to long red sonya rolls a nat 20 for initiave and you die....
male player:wth??
DM:exactly... now you know the true effective ness of red sonya... just RS anyone else and they're just screwed... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 02:43:49
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Art versus Usefulness. 'Tis not the first time we see people chose only the former, when the latter is much, much more important---and the combination of both, ideal. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 06:04:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Dennis, 'fashion' isn't limited to what modern, affluent, English-speaking people with a strong degree of cultural influence from London and California find attractive and tasteful.
Very true. Which is a reason to stuff anywhere, specifically including wildly different worlds, things some of teens with a strong degree of cultural influence from London and California find attractive and tasteful, how?..
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Unlike the design of tools, where form must to some degree follow function, fashion is not limited by 'common sense'*, by what 'works' or by a single cultural set of aesthetic judgment. [...]
*Mostly a collection of prejudices and misconceptions learned early enough so that they are never consciously questioned.
...Ah. I see. 
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Unlike the design of tools, where form must to some degree follow function, fashion is not limited by 'common sense'*, by what 'works' or by a single cultural set of aesthetic judgment.
Design of armor, weaponry and so on, though, is limited by fashion less than design of lingerie. Just like with other tools. Only natural choice somewhat more intensely backing up simple experiences with elementary mechanics, usually learned by folk not living in concrete boxes early enough that they are never consciously questioned.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 12:42:18
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Chainmail bikinis damage the genre, reinforce negative stereotypes about women, and insure that this will always be a hobby for fan*boys.*
How many of you would stand for a male protagonist wearing a conical armored penis plate with a scrotal chain-mail under-coif?
How are they different than boob-conforming plates and chain mail T-back thongs? |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 26 Apr 2012 13:09:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 15:42:40
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Two of my favorite fantasy artist growing-up were Frazetta and Boris Valejo, who loved picturing brawny men in loin-cloths. YES, they did love their chainmail bikinis, BUT, they were just as revealing with their males. The fact that I could see Conan's (or Kull's, or Tarzan's, etc) ass-cheeks hanging out the back did not influence any of my purchases one way or the other (although, admittedly, the females would usually get me to pick the book up in the first place).
Now, by saying that men can make intelligent decisions regardless of their sexual inclinations, but women CAN'T, is sexist IN THE EXTREME. You are inferring women are incapable of looking past art that they may find objectionable for some bizarre reason.
And I say 'bizarre' because art has always depicted beautiful nude humans, of both sexes. To say something isn't art because of your own misguided puritanical inclinations is just weird, IMHO (not saying anyone here is doing that - this is just a general observation on my part). It should also not effect your purchasing of products (if it did, I probably wouldn't have bought many 1e products - early D&D art was pretty abysmal).
Saying a woman won't buy fantasy material because of bikini chainmail, even though men buy them with males in loin-clothes is belittling to women. That infers they are shallow (because they cant get past the covers). I would say all the female gamers I have known enjoyed ALL the fantasy art equally - I would rather not have narrow-minded folk in our hobby, thank you very much. They've already done enough damage to the world.
And, as I have said earlier in this thread, I like my armor and weapons fantastical, even to the point of silliness - its called fantasy for a reason. If I wanted purely historical depictions I can get that in a public library (and I owned several excellent volumes on the subjects). Not all the time, mind you - that would get tiresome as well. Just liberally sprinkled-in with the realistic stuff (perhaps leave the truly exotic crap to non-human races? That may be an adequate compromise.)
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
It appears your inclination to treat all arguments a strawman. Kinda tiresome at times.
My post didn't mention skimpy outfits in any way. You posted something about skimpy outfits. Kinda a strawman.
And maybe it's a language barrier, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
MT's and my links are images of RS in skimpy outfit with hardly nothing but boobmail. You chimed in and mentioned about fashion. So I thought you were referring to RS's kind of clothing. I'm not averse to such type of dress. (Isn't Wonderwoman beautiful in her costume?) But to have an armor that only covers the boobs sounds ridiculous.
I agree.
I want someone to depict a female wearing full plate that covers everything BUT her boobs. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2012 15:44:13 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 17:14:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And I say 'bizarre' because art has always depicted beautiful nude humans, of both sexes. To say something isn't art because of your own misguided puritanical inclinations is just weird, IMHO (not saying anyone here is doing that - this is just a general observation on my part). It should also not effect your purchasing of products (if it did, I probably wouldn't have bought many 1e products - early D&D art was pretty abysmal).
Saying a woman won't buy fantasy material because of bikini chainmail, even though men buy them with males in loin-clothes is belittling to women. That infers they are shallow (because they cant get past the covers). I would say all the female gamers I have known enjoyed ALL the fantasy art equally - I would rather not have narrow-minded folk in our hobby, thank you very much. They've already done enough damage to the world.
People are oriented to the visual, which means that both genders are going to be influenced by cover art - we'd not be discussing it, otherwise. And many women in Western society feel that they are bombarded by sexual images, in all forms of media, and/or that the current obsession with scantily-clad and very slender 20-something women causes unrealistic expectations for body image. With that in mind, is it any wonder that a woman would be disinclined to read a book that continues these trends right on the cover? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:27:20
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Have you seen an issue of Cosmopolitan? {smirk}
Here's another - just PS that bikini into chainmail, if you prefer. It took me all of ten seconds to find both of those - most are like that.
Most 'Womens Magazines' depict alluring, beautiful (and sometimes scantily-clad) women on the cover. To say women won't buy products with beautiful women in sexy poses on the cover is... well.. its just plain wrong.
But suppose I agree with the 'lets get rid of it!" crowd.
Eventually we have lots of 13-14 year old boys owning tons of books (that their mom buys them) showing NO women on the covers - only hunky, well-built men in loincloths. Yeah... that will go over big when dad decides to look through his bookcase. I can just picture now what people will say about our hobby in a decade or so... at least they won't be calling us 'nerds' any more.
Mind you, I'm just playing 'devils advocate'. I could care less either way - I buy products based on quality. I just don't want to see social pressure define what is 'acceptable' in art - I find that highly distasteful. That sort of mind-set leads to a pope who has all the penises removed from masterpiece-sculptures. If we go this route, what next? Remove halflings and gnomes from all the books because 'little people' find it offensive? Maybe we should eliminate Elves as well, because they make overweight people feel bad. You see the problem? Once you start making compromises it never ends.
We have to remember that ofttimes we have to "be careful what we wish for" - sometimes the replacement is worse then that which it replaces. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2012 19:28:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:54:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Have you seen an issue of Cosmopolitan? {smirk}
Here's another - just PS that bikini into chainmail, if you prefer. It took me all of ten seconds to find both of those - most are like that.
Most 'Womens Magazines' depict alluring, beautiful (and sometimes scantily-clad) women on the cover. To say women won't buy products with beautiful women in sexy poses on the cover is... well.. its just plain wrong.
That's not the same thing. Women on the cover of magazines towards women generally aren't perceived of being there just for sex appeal, unlike fantasy artwork.
And some women would point to your links as excellent examples of unrealistic images being conveyed, or too much emphasis being placed on how women should look, as opposed to what kind of people they should be.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying it's how some women see it. And that perception is the heart of the issue. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 21:01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Here's another - just PS that bikini into chainmail, if you prefer. It took me all of ten seconds to find both of those - most are like that.
Why not photoshop the chainmail bikini in that pic, EVERYTHING else in the pic has already been photoshopped |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 02:06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Two of my favorite fantasy artist growing-up were Frazetta and Boris Valejo, who loved picturing brawny men in loin-cloths. YES, they did love their chainmail bikinis, BUT, they were just as revealing with their males. [...] Now, by saying that men can make intelligent decisions regardless of their sexual inclinations, but women CAN'T [...]
Good straw, but doesn't cover the naked butt. For one, the subject is armor - as opposed to, say, clothing (or lack thereof) of exotic dancers.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And, as I have said earlier in this thread, I like my armor and weapons fantastical, even to the point of silliness - its called fantasy for a reason.
That's where tastes differ, you see. And habits. If someone treats as an idiot, for example, me, the usual reaction is suspicion that he's either an idiot himself and as such fails to imagine anything above this level, or a fraud and aims at his customary target audience.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If I wanted purely historical depictions I can get that in a public library (and I owned several excellent volumes on the subjects). Not all the time, mind you - that would get tiresome as well. Just liberally sprinkled-in with the realistic stuff (perhaps leave the truly exotic crap to non-human races? That may be an adequate compromise.)
Good straw, again, but doesn't cover the puddle. Have a seat: "not stupid" and "historical", while overlapping a lot, are very different sets.
Since you mentioned weapons, here's a good FR example: triton tapal. It does not repeat existing weapons, but it's something that in the proposed niche obviously would work, and probably even well. As opposed to, e.g. Redundant Stone Yo Yo (by RAS), doorswords and other lolwutarangs.
That's because there is a huge difference between thinking out stuff for new and unusual circumstances and smearing on a wall something meaningless (notcompensatingforanything!!1 is optional, but almost inevitable) with fluorescent poo and waiting for cheers to which the little "artist" already feels entitled. The latter is only somewhat cute until about age 3; and even then - someone, take from them fluorescent paint, please, they eat it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I want someone to depict a female wearing full plate that covers everything BUT her boobs.
A truly compelling argument, at last. I think we all can agree that a good laugh is a good laugh.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 07:01:15
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My argument is that art is art, at least on the covers. Very rarely whats depicted on a cover ever happens (or has anything to do with) whats inside (and this goes for must novels, not just game-ones).
I would whole-heartedly agree with you if it was an 'illustration', which is supposed to be an accurate depiction of something game or adventure-related (so what you are looking at might actually matter).
But a lot of the art in D&D products is like the cover - just there to look pretty. It doesn't have to make sense, so long as a lot of people still enjoy it (I, personally, can't figure out why people like Picasso).
Or a book entirely on Arms & equipment - that should be HIGHLY detailed and accurate. I guess it all depends on the purpose of the tome.
I see you avoided addressing my non-human compromise - you still want physically accurate armor for 30' tall beings, or those with several heads, or those only 3' tall, yet able to wield standard weapons? (I always disliked halflings and gnomes for that reason). You want humans to 'dress sensibly', thats fine, but I don't see why aliens (because thats what non-humans are) wouldn't use things that are more exotic; for instance, chainmail bikinis might work very well with a whirling-dervish style Elven Swordancer. We wouldn't really know what was improbable, because we don't have any real elves to ask. Elves are supposed to be more agile and flexible then humans (on avergae), so maybe they can do things we can't. Same goes for an orc - maybe he CAN lift and wield a 7' sword. When I find one, I'll ask him.
And by the same token, a human from another world is an alien as well, so who knows what they are capable of? An astronaugt on the moon could probably lift a 7' sword, or even a 10' one... not sure how well he could swing it. Maybe everyone on Toril is John Carter - loin-cloths and chainmail bikinis seem to work just fine on Mars.
I guess my point is, none of this is real. Can't we just enjoy it without analyzing the crap out of everything? If I can believe a single human can stand toe-to-toe with a 50', flying, fire-breathing (and talking!) lizard, I can believe the guy would want to use a 7' door-word. Maybe its an evolutionary thing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Apr 2012 07:10:09 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 08:08:44
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All the Arms & Equipment books I've seen for D&D tend to illustrate practical examples. To be sure, there's sometimes some bizarre gnome steamjunk or weird planescape-anime alchemical battlesuits - but the basic leather, chain, and plate varieties are typically "realistic" representations which are truly unglamourous to behold.
The way I see it: the most elegantly graceful swirling dervish elven warrior has to expend a whole lot of effort for a chance at interposing his 2% armour coverage every time he's struck, and I assume his opponent will deliberately aim for the other 98% of the target which is entirely unarmored. As if a villain will fight fair, eh? Cups and codpieces (and chainmail bikinis, I suppose) are certainly effective in preventing specific kinds of grievous or mortal injury - but only a fool would treat them as a complete suit of armour. And think about it - instead of dissipating incoming force across a big chunk of a big metal suit he's going to basically be thrusting his groin and butt at every incoming strike. That elf had better also be really quick if he plans to dodge every arrow volleyed at him and every little fragment of sharp or burning shrapnel which flies his way during the fight.
Magic can make even the most flimsy piece of metal into mighty armor. But magic can also be used to attack the armor or the wearer ... a chain hauberk will just always have better defense than a chain bikini. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Apr 2012 08:18:18 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 11:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
And think about it - instead of dissipating incoming force across a big chunk of a big metal suit he's going to basically be thrusting his groin and butt at every incoming strike. That elf had better also be really quick if he plans to dodge every arrow volleyed at him and every little fragment of sharp or burning shrapnel which flies his way during the fight.
Visions of Robin Hood: Men in Tights come to mind, with colorful woodsmen gyrating and thrusting--along to silly music!
Now, we need to outfit the *****cat Dolls in this kind of gear, so I can get that other image out of my head! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 12:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My argument is that art is art, at least on the covers. Very rarely whats depicted on a cover ever happens (or has anything to do with) whats inside (and this goes for must novels, not just game-ones).
And more specifically, crappy art is crappy art. I know, Sturgeon's Law, but that's why it's here...
As to the covers, if it's so puerile it can make mature people think whether they want to be seen carrying this, an assumption that the publisher tries to make it the main selling point isn't too far fetched. Hence a doubt in quality of what's inside.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would whole-heartedly agree with you if it was an 'illustration', which is supposed to be an accurate depiction of something game or adventure-related (so what you are looking at might actually matter).
That just means you don't mind if a covers are merely ads and if ads shamelessly BS you. But once quality is disregarded here, illustrations follow. There's nothing wrong with long spikes and fluo-slime everywhere... right?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I see you avoided addressing my non-human compromise - you still want physically accurate armor for 30' tall beings, or those with several heads, or those only 3' tall, yet able to wield standard weapons?
I don't even see a big problem here. Let alone how it "justifies" the specific inanity in question.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You want humans to 'dress sensibly',
I'd think after my previous message you'd figured out throwing straw against the wind doesn't really work. Hm... Let's try this: do you see any difference between dress and armor? If yes, what it is?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We wouldn't really know what was improbable, because we don't have any real elves to ask. Elves are supposed to be more agile and flexible then humans (on avergae), so maybe they can do things we can't. Same goes for an orc - maybe he CAN lift and wield a 7' sword. When I find one, I'll ask him.
Who knows what may happen if an elf tries to multiply 2 by 2. I thought "Crocodiles do fly - but only in wartime and very low!" is but a vulgar barrack joke about "dumb NCO" stereotype. The more you know... <sigh>
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe everyone on Toril is John Carter - loin-cloths and chainmail bikinis seem to work just fine on Mars.
That's where this sort of thing leads, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I guess my point is, none of this is real. Can't we just enjoy it without analyzing the crap out of everything?
We can. I understand that some people don't see what a problem when someone claims that cows lay eggs or makes a whole armor from catfish scales.
The rest of us, however, tend to take into account more trivial facts of nature than "if you sit on top of a chair's back, it may fall over" (my apologies to mecha fans here ). Even understanding e.g. the difference between a bow and a slingshot. In this case such trivialties don't require google "analyzing" anything at all and ignoring them without any good reason becomes a show-stopper.
This usually excludes slapstick cartoons, at least - it's okay if Tom or Jerry survives steamrolling - but "art" doesn't by definition equal "slapstick cartoons". There's the whole wide world of things substantially different from Tom&Jerry or John Carter... not limited to Picasso.
I really don't know how else to explain this.
Mod edit: Language, please. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Apr 2012 18:02:23 |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 13:04:25
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Fantasy. If I can suspend belief to allow for pixies and such, I am going to go all in for "Boobplate".
I needed an NPC on the spot to inspire my fellow nerds (I am being honest here. My group was comprised completely of nerds) to go up into Vassa. I ripped out the advertisement for Rumple Minze, which had this blonde wielding a sword, and riding a Polar Bear. Yes, I explained it all away with magic. Resistance to cold, Armor Class adjustments. You name it, and this armor had the magical property. And the best part was that while the players would kill off their NPC mothers for a coin with a light spell on it, they wouldn’t be caught fictionally dead wearing “boobplate” (Garen Thal – You should copyright that)
Anyway, the players were inspired. But this was back in the day where the sketch of the stick-wielding woman hiding behind a rock in Unearthed Arcana (1st Edition) was inspiring. Hardly politically correct, but this was a bunch of guys playing a fantasy game on a Friday night.
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Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 16:39:23
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It amazes me that you insist my arguments are strawman, and yet you are still trying to apply logic to a fantasy world filled with aliens.
And you keep calling it 'crappy art' - thats your opinion, and yet you are basing your arguments on that. You insist that all the art for a fantasy game - where drow elves can single-handedly kill 1000 Orcs - make sense according to the rules you dictate.
Why is a 50' long flying, flaming reptile who talks and casts magic spells easy to believe (and depict), but a man wielding a 7' sword or a woman dressing inappropriately for battle is out of the question? The rules are filled with 'impossible' things humans can do (which are mostly covered by Feats and magic), but you insist one particular facet of the game be logical. I actually don't even understand your argument (seriously).
None of this is supposed to be rocket science - its entertainment, and anyone who forgets that isn't letting themselves simply enjoy it. If 95% of the setting/game violates physics, why are you harping on certain specific things?
I wish people would stop trying to alter things in D&D (that have been part of the genre from the beginning) because it doesn't fit their own tastes. To hell with the folks that like it, or don't mind it, eh? Maybe we should listen to a tiny cross-section of the community and change the entire setting.. oh... wait... too late. 
And like I KEEP SAYING, this doesn't effect me one way or the other - I make purchases (and unashamedly carry books) based upon content quality, and always will. If they change the art and don't even make an announcement over it, or have fan-communities tearing it apart, I (honestly) wouldn't even notice. I just don't want some folks deciding what is 'right & wrong' for everyone else - that just rubs me the wrong way. If the art offends you so much (or you are embarrassed by it), buy some damn book covers.
BTW, I think none of what we are saying here matters - D&D is now owned by a toy-company who's primary customer base makes chainmail bikinis inappropriate, so this all a mute point. For D&D, those days are gone. Thank god other companies still allow freedom of expression, creativity, imagination, and just plain fun. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Apr 2012 19:33:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 18:05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, I think none of what we are saying here matters - D&D is now owned by a toy-company who's primary customer base makes chainmail bikinis inappropriate, so this all a mute point. For D&D, those days are gone. Thank god other companies still allow freedom of expression, creativity, imagination, and just plain fun.
Ah, yes, the parent company, which doesn't really dictate content, wouldn't allow their own products to feature boobplate, so with the independent subsidiary, there's no further room for creativity or fun. 
I guess we'll ignore the fact that this is the same pair of companies that allowed a book focusing on necrophilia and such to be published... |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 18:13:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
I ripped out the advertisement for Rumple Minze, which had this blonde wielding a sword, and riding a Polar Bear.
You too?
I still have a photocopy of that ad (I lost the original years ago) in my first D&D folder. The sword she wielded was the inspiration for the first D&D character I ever made.
As to the rest of your post: good points, all. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 19:46:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, I think none of what we are saying here matters - D&D is now owned by a toy-company who's primary customer base makes chainmail bikinis inappropriate, so this all a mute point. For D&D, those days are gone. Thank god other companies still allow freedom of expression, creativity, imagination, and just plain fun.
Ah, yes, the parent company, which doesn't really dictate content, wouldn't allow their own products to feature boobplate, so with the independent subsidiary, there's no further room for creativity or fun.
I guess we'll ignore the fact that this is the same pair of companies that allowed a book focusing on necrophilia and such to be published...
And yet, their writer's guidelines do not allow writers to depict situations they find 'questionable'. Seems to me, their is a double-standard.
You can show kids graphic horror and violence, but heaven forbid you show them a sexual situation (and I consider necrophilia horror, not sex, but others may disagree), or a scantily-clad person.
Anyhow, regardless, my final point was that I don't think we will be seeing boob-plate (or chainmail bikins) in D&D products anymore, because such things would be inappropriate for a parent-company like Hasbro. They want moms to buy these books for their kids, so the covers have to appeal to the parents, which makes perfect sense and is understandable to me. While I think its a sad day for D&D and fantasy in-general, the world is a different place these days. Products have to appeal to the lowest common denominator, relegating everything to mediocrity.
And once again, I will purchase QUALITY products regardless. The art has nothing to do with it. I buy what I like, or what I think I can use. The rest is just 'packaging'.
EDIT: and after the latest 'blow' we were dealt, I wouldn't be too sure about WotC's 'autonomy'. We may never know the truth, but I suspect some of the decisions Monte had trouble with came "from on-high". The lawyers still all belong to Hasbro. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Apr 2012 19:52:53 |
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Fantasy Armor
