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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 23:30:43
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quote: Originally posted by Markustay
Can't we just enjoy it without analyzing the crap out of everything?
Methinks that's what Bob has been wondering for years.
But all you haters just won't get off his back!
I will never cease to analyze. It's a huge part of the fun, for me.
But I do try to reconcile and retcon stuff, as much as is practical.
Personally, boobmail softcore porn is great, to me. But I think it should be reserved to unofficial, commissioned art fora like DeviantArt (ha! what an ironic title and application, here!); or cosplay/cons/fests, where fans are encouraged to creatively interpret things to their liking.
The official art armor should be realistic, or semi-caricatured in size.
And for crying out loud, it should match the textual descriptions in the stories!
I will also remind fellow scribes that back in the day, as a young teen, I skipped right past all the DragonLance books, with their wild action covers, and picked out a book with a very drab, but very realistic-looking scene. I recognized the artist as Elmore, so that was a plus. I had no idea who this R.A. Salvatore guy was. But those three serious-looking, subdued dudes tracking something in the snow appealed to me far more than all the dragon flames and [EDIT: lighting lightning] bolts and whatever other overdone motifs from fantasy covers ever could.
I think their low-key armor and dress was a big part of that. They just looked real, in my mind's eye. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly." --Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 28 Apr 2012 22:40:34 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 08:50:03
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Yeah that simple little book was the first realms book I bought as well. However I am not saying that all cover art be as subdued or be totally realistic because this is fantasy after all. If it followed the rules of our world , then what would be the point of travelling to the realms to slay a dragon because lets be honest here in real life no warrior no matter how skilled would be able to defeat a dragon by themselves. Even highly skilled and battle hardened warriors like Drizzt or Aoth have survived many battles by nothing more than the good graces of Lady Luck ( Bareris and Mirror showing up to rescue him at the last moment in that mansion in Aglarond) and such improbable coincidences just don't happen that often in our world, do they. So let fantasy be fantasy but lets not go off the deep end either because this will alienate casual readers. Follow the Middle Path. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 18:36:16
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I have to agree with BEAST on all counts, including his comments about dragonlance and the Icewind Dale trilogy (I was turned-off by all the over-blown, dragon-riding, uber-characters on the covers).
You made me feel better, BEAST... I was starting to feel self-conscious about defending chainmail bikinis - like I was some sort of perv - but you made me realize I have, in the past, bought books with more realistic covers myself (which may have started with FR, come to think of it).
And once again, its not the art itself I was dfending (although it sure came off that way) - it was that idea that people shouldn't decide what other people should like. There are some things I love that a lot of folks would consider garbage, and their is stuff I consider garbage (including art made from actual garbage) that a lot of folks like, so to each their own.
Besides, where would the world be without paintings on velvet, paintings of scary-looking big-eyed children, pity-puppies (and kittens), or paintings of dogs playing cards? 'Cheese' is its own artform. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 22:35:41
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quote: Originally posted by Markustay
You made me feel better, BEAST...
Cool beans, dudesky!
quote: I was starting to feel self-conscious about defending chainmail bikinis - like I was some sort of perv -
As far as I'm concerned, there's not a perverted thing in the world about enjoying the sight of buxom women in barely-there dress.
It's perverted to deny such.
quote: And once again, its not the art itself I was dfending (although it sure came off that way) - it was that idea that people shouldn't decide what other people should like.
And that's how I read your comments. It seemed like you were being backed into a corner on one interpretation of it, but that wasn't your real point.
quote: Besides, where would the world be without paintings on velvet, paintings of scary-looking big-eyed children, pity-puppies (and kittens), or paintings of dogs playing cards? 'Cheese' is its own artform.
Back when I shared an apartment with my younger brothers, one drew the line at cardplaying dogs. We almost bought a print at a flea market one day, but he chose to put it back.
He just couldn't visualize how it would fit in with his puffy velvet poster of a scary-looking big-eyed alien! (It almost looked like a big-eyed child. )
He eventually deep-sixed the alien, but he since got pitty-puppy calendars, so I suppose the cardplaying pack of dogs might fit right in, now! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly." --Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 01:49:49
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quote: Originally posted by Markustay
It amazes me that you insist my arguments are strawman, and yet you are still trying to apply logic to a fantasy world filled with aliens.
Ah. I see. The entirety of our disagreement is that your concept of art didn't move past "Tom&Jerry". Wellll... you may find it strange, but... most of the art does not belong to slapstick cartoon genre, and usually most of art that is not slapstick cartoons or Picasso is supposed to... make sense. Yes. Also, "fantasy" does not equal "Tolkien on PCP". For that matter - and it's a really, really widely known fact - Tolkien himself put more of effort into making his setting internally coherent than into anything else.
quote: Originally posted by Markustay
And you keep calling it 'crappy art' - thats your opinion
True. And you for some reason seem to call "art" all and any inept imitations of Vallejo. This strange classification is also your opinion.
quote: Originally posted by Markustay
None of this is supposed to be rocket science - its entertainment, and anyone who forgets that isn't letting themselves simply enjoy it. If 95% of the setting/game violates physics, why are you harping on certain specific things?
You see, most folk - not just rocket scientists - expects stones thrown up to fall down soon, unless there's a specific and most likely obvious reason they won't. Again, slapstick cartoons are a big exception: there things like characters running in air until they notice, attacking an armored knight with a can opener and so on are indeed acceptable - and even expectable. But these are relatively rare and obvious case. Is it a new concept?
quote: Originally posted by Markustay
I wish people would stop trying to alter things in D&D (that have been part of the genre from the beginning) because it doesn't fit their own tastes. To hell with the folks that like it, or don't mind it, eh?
Oh - you mean, like why some folk would try to turn everything into one vast "Mars Of Vallejo" setting? No idea. I currently am puzzled by the same question, in fact.
quote: Originally posted by Markustay
For D&D, those days are gone. Thank god other companies still allow freedom of expression, creativity, imagination, and just plain fun.
And that there are people whose idea of creativity and imagination isn't limited to contouring replicas of puerile ads from each other and adding spikes and glowing goo. Amen to that.
quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ah, yes, the parent company, which doesn't really dictate content
Wait, so finding the concept of "Lawful Evil" inappropriate was a local idea, coincidences are indeed coincidental?.. The more you know... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 01:59:41
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Fashion is not the issue. The impracticality of it, is. I still fail to see how boobmail can be more effective than regular mail. Is the female warrior expecting that her enemies would strike her boobs only? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 02:36:11
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Fellow scribes, I've had a few complaints about the tone and apparent lack of respect some members are showing towards other participates in this discussion scroll.
Let's try to remember that while we all wish to passionately defend our own opinions, that doesn't necessarily make us -- or our opinions -- always right.
Respect other viewpoints, and accept the possibility that your own perspectives on matters -- regardless of how you may think to justify them -- aren't how every other scribe might interpret them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Apr 2012 02:37:33 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 04:08:35
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quote: Originally posted by Dennis
Fashion is not the issue. The impracticality of it, is. I still fail to see how boobmail can be more effective than regular mail. Is the female warrior expecting that her enemies would strike her boobs only?
an unarmored warrior can go toe to toe with an armored foe. It was shown on the midievil fight book off nat geo or history channel.
I guess it doesn't answer your question if boobmail can be more effective than regular mail though.....
although it is doable
and I think I will steer clear of the last question |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction Magister's GAmbit http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 04:16:11
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quote: Originally posted by sfdragon
quote: Originally posted by Dennis
Fashion is not the issue. The impracticality of it, is. I still fail to see how boobmail can be more effective than regular mail. Is the female warrior expecting that her enemies would strike her boobs only?
an unarmored warrior can go toe to toe with an armored foe. It was shown on the midievil fight book off nat geo or history channel.
I guess it doesn't answer your question if boobmail can be more effective than regular mail though.....
although it is doable
and I think I will steer clear of the last question
One can choose to go to battle either armored or unarmored. Unarmored is fine, if the fighter feels the armor would slow her moves to a considerable degree, or simply, if she has none at all (can't afford, not in their custom, or for whatever reason) . But if you go armored, must you choose to protect only your boobs? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 04:36:02
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No....... though I'd have to wonder what said female warrior was advertising going out like Red Sonya..... though that warrior's back story is well known |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction Magister's GAmbit http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 05:49:40
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quote: Originally posted by sfdragon
though I'd have to wonder what said female warrior was advertising going out like Red Sonya.....
Why, an upcoming novel or comic book, of course! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly." --Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 06:55:37
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quote: Originally posted by Dennis
quote: Originally posted by sfdragon
quote: Originally posted by Dennis
Fashion is not the issue. The impracticality of it, is. I still fail to see how boobmail can be more effective than regular mail. Is the female warrior expecting that her enemies would strike her boobs only?
an unarmored warrior can go toe to toe with an armored foe. It was shown on the midievil fight book off nat geo or history channel.
I guess it doesn't answer your question if boobmail can be more effective than regular mail though.....
although it is doable
and I think I will steer clear of the last question
One can choose to go to battle either armored or unarmored. Unarmored is fine, if the fighter feels the armor would slow her moves to a considerable degree, or simply, if she has none at all (can't afford, not in their custom, or for whatever reason) . But if you go armored, must you choose to protect only your boobs?
To be fair, two things are being overlooked here.
One, the armor itself. From what I gather, the prevailing assumption is that the armor is standard metal fashioned into whatever shape is being discussed (boobplate, chain bikinis, scale mail halter, or what have you), with absolutely nothing added to it. If this is the case, then it must be acknowledged that no, this sort of armor is not as good as 'normal' armor, and the person wearing it is likely a complete idiot.
Two, the world laws and paradigms obviously make any sort of magical alteration to armor types such as this absolutely impossible. Nothing that has been discussed recently indicates any understanding of this, as the rush to judgment has been 'it's realistic or the character would be killed, end of story'.
It might just be me, but I was always under the impression that the Realms, and most fantasy gaming worlds in general, allowed for armor with certain, specified magical conditions to be applied to them (whether a boost to armor class, saving throws, attribute boosts, what have you). Granted, I do not employ 'scanty' clothing for those classes who actually wear armor (although I certainly have no issue with dressed-down female wizards/sorcerers), but the fact remains that the paradigm of the Realms does allow for such things.
You don't have to like it...you don't have to applaud it...you don't have to fight for it. But saying 'this is impossible' is more than just a tad bit unreasonable for anyone who sits down at a table and describes tossing fireballs, killing dragons, and taking a jaunt on a City of Shade. It makes absolutely zero sense.
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 29 Apr 2012 06:57:01 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 06:59:40
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quote: Originally posted by BEAST
quote: Originally posted by sfdragon
though I'd have to wonder what said female warrior was advertising going out like Red Sonya.....
Why, an upcoming novel or comic book, of course!
but its not a red head, its a bruenette and she's japanese and has XXX sized boxxom and dual wields sushi.
no offense to the japanese. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction Magister's GAmbit http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 07:31:32
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@OMH
If it's magical, I still fail to see why the 'condition' has to do with the boobs. She could have just used a ring and wear an ordinary bra. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 12:32:03
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quote: Originally posted by Dennis
@OMH
If it's magical, I still fail to see why the 'condition' has to do with the boobs. She could have just used a ring and wear an ordinary bra.
Point taken, and it's actually a good one.
My response is this: Magical upper garment (bikini top/halter/what have you): +1 AC (plus protects as padded or leather, DM's call).
Magical Lower Garment (briefs/skirt/bloomers/whatever): +1 AC (same as above).
Put together: Functions as a Ring of Warmth (oh come on...you had to see that one on the way), plus a further set bonus of +1 or +2 versus Cold attacks, again, DM's call.
And...it leaves their fingers free for Rings of other sorts.
Just sayin'...
- OMH |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 21:45:09
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*Magic* It's easy for a magical brassierre to provide actual armor class comparable to, say, a magical bracelet, ring, necklace, medallion, turban, footwear, elbowpad, bandage, or feather. The variety of "unencumbering" magical items which protect the wearer as effectively as a complete suit of metal armor is limited only to creator's talents and imagination. If a wizard wants to make chainmail bikini +3 for his/her own use (or to give to a companion) then so be it - seductive/erotic fashions are no more than a matter of style and preference.
*No-Magic* Chainmail bikini = victim in any kind of realistic simulation of medieval combat vs opponents who use metal arms and armor. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 15:48:52
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quote: Originally posted by Ayrik
*Magic* It's easy for a magical brassierre to provide actual armor class comparable to, say, a magical bracelet, ring, necklace, medallion, turban, footwear, elbowpad, bandage, or feather. The variety of "unencumbering" magical items which protect the wearer as effectively as a complete suit of metal armor is limited only to creator's talents and imagination. If a wizard wants to make chainmail bikini +3 for his/her own use (or to give to a companion) then so be it - seductive/erotic fashions are no more than a matter of style and preference.
*No-Magic* Chainmail bikini = victim in any kind of realistic simulation of medieval combat vs opponents who use metal arms and armor.
Exactly. Anyone who sallies forth into battle with a chain bikini with no enhancements of any sort is an idiot, and deserves what they get. That, or they are an unarmed/unarmored fighter of amazing skill that are deliberately trying to get their enemy to underestimate them.
Magic allows for all sorts of things. It's a tad bit discouraging that many of us as tabletop gamers haven't made that connection.
- OMH |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 16:10:35
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"Tom & Jerry"?
We are grown men playing with games and toys (and still-in-the-box collectibles).
I have no mind of my own, so I bow to your superior taste. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 May 2012 22:01:56 |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 18:05:11
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Hey, Bruce Lee was a "legendary" martial artist ... a bullet-resistant vest might've saved his life, his epic skill didn't. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 20:23:09
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quote: Originally posted by Imp
quote: That, or they are an unarmed/unarmored fighter of amazing skill that are deliberately trying to get their enemy to underestimate them.
I have a character in a game that has very good AC without using an armor at all. Heck. He would lose a significant portion of that AC if he would put armor on.
Also a good point. However, male characters might not want to wear a chain bikini, anyways...
- OMH |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 21:57:58
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quote: Impquote: Ayrik
Hey, Bruce Lee was a "legendary" martial artist ... a bullet-resistant vest might've saved his life, his epic skill didn't.
True, but not relevant. In D&D it doesn't really matter where you get your AC from. It still has the same effect - enemy can't hit you.
I think not so easily dismissed, if you assume D&D Bruce Lee received AC from his martial arts class/skills. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 22:01:05
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This just in.
Interesting article, touching upon our side-discussion here.
I actually remember ads like that when I was little. My, how times have changed. Its an interesting read, regardless, and lets us weigh-in on how we want D&D art down the line.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 00:43:00
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Fashion itself does not matter. It is the context that must be taken into consideration.
Going back to the boobmail example. If women in a certain culture deem it right to wear boobmail as everyday upper body covering because it exudes a certain sexual appeal and because it makes them feel comfortable and attractive, then fine. But having female warriors wear it in battle is just plain silly. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 03:05:07
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quote: Originally posted by Markustay
This just in.
Interesting article, touching upon our side-discussion here.
To use his accepted definition of sexism as gender stereotyping or gender role stereotyping, then it would seem that if almost all fantasy art depicts women as scantily-clad vixens, that would be a gender role stereotype. It would seem to be depicting all women as sex objects. (Never mind any women who don't look like them; the only ones who matter are the obviously hot ones. And never mind that hot women come in a wide range of forms, either.)
There's nothing wrong--I repeat, NOTHING wrong--with occasionally depicting some sexy boobmail-festooned women here and there. But when that becomes the norm, then a type or even stereotype is being embraced.
Balance is a good thing. Blend in other sorts (of women and men).
That way, when the occasional hotty does make it onto a cover, she (or he) will have that much more pop and pizazz in the eyes of the viewers.
This approach might risk losing some consumers, especially in this short-attention-span, more-more-more, entertain-me-now! age. That's a risk that TPTB have to decide whether they're willing to take.
But I repeat that I didn't go for the hotty boobmail-cover-art books as a kid. Sure, I picked them up and drooled over them. But then I put them back and bought, with my precious limited funds, books that I thought I could take more seriously.
I guess what TPTB really need to decide is what kind of consumers do they ultimately want to court and cater to? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly." --Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 18:41:54
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quote: Originally posted by Markustay
This just in.
Interesting article, touching upon our side-discussion here.
I actually remember ads like that when I was little. My, how times have changed. Its an interesting read, regardless, and lets us weigh-in on how we want D&D art down the line.
Awesome, thanks for the link! Quite a good post by the artist.
Female warriors wearing 'scanty' armor only makes sense in certain situations, true, but it is a pronounced mistake to make a blanket statement such as 'unrealistic' or 'ludicrous'.
Many worlds support just this sort of armor type, usually the ones with a decent injection of High Fantasy. More mundane, less magical worlds such as Cerilia (Birthright), which has a dearth of magic as well as actual spellcasters, would be unlikely (at best) to support this sort of protection (and I, in fact, do not allow 'boobmail' in my Birthright campaigns).
However, for those worlds that have the magical background/resources for such things, I am willing to suspend my disbelief, and put my real-world mundane prejudices on a shelf. I get enough 'realism' just by getting up in the morning - I'd like a little less realism in my High Fantasy from time to time.
- OMH |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 07:04:01
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How about horned northmen helmets? They are right up their with Boobmail in anti-functionality. Should we give those up as well?
If we give those up, how will we be able to tell our Viking-types from other barbarians?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 May 2012 07:10:02 |
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