I'd like to know: how likely would it be for Graz'zt and Malcanthet to have a child together? I know they hate each other, but they didn't always. Graz'zt actually lusted after her, so before she completely shot him down, they could have some time of wild fun.
Well...he was a devil before he was a demon anyway... who knows what he started out as.
Is this canon? I thought he was a demon at the time Asmodeus fell from Heaven (so before devils were created). I think I've read something about him actually helping Asmodeus rise to such power, and possibly corrupting him into rebeling against his Lawful gods.
EDIT: it might have been some musing here at the keep.
Well...he was a devil before he was a demon anyway... who knows what he started out as.
Is this canon? I thought he was a demon at the time Asmodeus fell from Heaven (so before devils were created). I think I've read something about him actually helping Asmodeus rise to such power, and possibly corrupting him into rebeling against his Lawful gods.
EDIT: it might have been some musing here at the keep.
But it does make some sense - Graz'zt never struck me as 'demonic' type (he looks more like a devil).
This just lends credence to my supposition; Baatezu are natives of Hell, and creatures who dwell in Hell are called 'Devils' (its more like a job, then a race).
Tanar'ri are natives of The Abyss, and creatures who live in the Abyss are called 'Demons' (once again, a classification rather then an actual race).
So while all Baatezu are (born) Devils, and all Tanar'ri are (born) demons, not all Devils are Batezu, and not all Demons are Tanar'ri (I think Shemmy may have been the first to bring-up this line of reasoning, or Gray Richardson).
Also, most outsiders can change form, so what they look-like may be a matter of preference, or a matter of how the plane itself defines them (it alters their 'natural form'). However, even if the plane assigns them a 'true' form, they can still look however they want (So a devil could take the form of an other-worldy, beautiful winged being, if it chooses to do so). Of course, a lot of this is dependent upon the power of the fiend in-question.
So Graz'zt being a demon just means he changed sides, is all. He was still a Baatezu the whole time (IMO).
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
But it does make some sense - Graz'zt never struck me as 'demonic' type (he looks more like a devil).
This just lends credence to my supposition; Baatezu are natives of Hell, and creatures who dwell in Hell are called 'Devils' (its more like a job, then a race).
Tanar'ri are natives of The Abyss, and creatures who live in the Abyss are called 'Demons' (once again, a classification rather then an actual race).
So while all Baatezu are (born) Devils, and all Tanar'ri are (born) demons, not all Devils are Batezu, and not all Devils are Tanar'ri (I think Shemmy may have been the first to bring-up this line of reasoning, or Gray Richardson).
Also, most outsiders can change form, so what they look-like may be a matter of preference, or a matter of how the plane itself defines them (it alters their 'natural form'). However, even if the plane assigns them a 'true' form, they can still look however they want (So a devil could take the form of an other-worldy, beautiful winged being, if it chooses to do so). Of course, a lot of this is dependent upon the power of the fiend in-question.
So Graz'zt being a demon just means he changed sides, is all. He was still a Baatezu the whole time (IMO).
Well, I don't dislike this version of Graz'zt, even though I usually try to avoid the hole devil=pretty and demons=ugly. Not to start this debate again, but I still think it is the main reason why succubi are now devils.
Coming back to Graz'zt/Malcanthet; considering that both have very active sexual tendancies, and that they have been around for several millenias, it would be unlikely that they never had intercourse. So the question could be not if they ever had a child, but how many.
Graz'zt and Malcanthet do not have sex for love, they do not have sex for lust...
They have sex to use the offspring in diabolical plots (for lack of a demonic term) against each other. Expressing pride when those children uses those plots to their own gains... Even if it upsets the parents.
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems!
Given Graz'zt's historical inclination for certain "passions," I would suspect that if he could find a way to produce offspring with another, he would do so.
Fiend-spawn, I'd imagine, would make for some interesting weapons in his arsenal of cunning and manipulation.
Demons are ugly? How does that explain Glasya, Mephistopheles, and Asmodeus?
If gods can spawn children without having intercourse, can higher level demons and devils do the same? I understand that they'd rather perform the sexual act for pleasure. But for practicality's sake, have they ever reproduced via the mere transfer of energy/essence/spirit/life-force? Or rather, in the first place, can they?
quote:Given Graz'zt's historical inclination for certain "passions," I would suspect that if he could find a way to produce offspring with another, he would do so.
But he can. Why shouldn't he? If I remember correctly, he has half-fiendish offspring (and if not he, then certainly other demon lords)
quote:Demons are ugly? How does that explain Glasya, Mephistopheles, and Asmodeus?
They're Devils?
quote:If gods can spawn children without having intercourse, can higher level demons and devils do the same? I understand that they'd rather perform the sexual act for pleasure. But for practicality's sake, have they ever reproduced via the mere transfer of energy/essence/spirit/life-force? Or rather, in the first place, can they?
Again, they can. I know for sure that Malcanthet has babies with Demogorgon (which are monstrosities) and Pazuzu (it is said they sired lots of powerful succubi). And Red Shroud is Malcanthets daughter.
Because I'd imagine Graz'zt would only engage in creating fiend-spawn if he had something to gain from it. Whether using the fiend-spawn as a political pawn in games of devil/demon politics, as a hostage against a high-up fiend, or a cunning inside-fiendman/fiendwoman... Graz'zt would make sure only he would benefit from the creation of a child.
I don't see Graz'zt engaging in frivolous fiend-sex just for the sake of it. Unless, of course, his pleasure is the only reason for it.
quote:I don't see Graz'zt engaging in frivolous fiend-sex just for the sake of it. Unless, of course, his pleasure is the only reason for it.
Of course he would seek a profit from spawning half-fiends, but he's still a demon, so simple pleasure and a kid on accident is also very likely. Devils do try to limit their offspring for political reasons, but chaotic creatures like demons care much less about that, IMO.
Fiends can't 'fall in love' (if they were capable of love, then they would be on the path to redemption), so they have to substitute the closest thing - passionate hatred.
I have been told 'angry sex' is the best (I wouldn't know), so I guess despite their hatred for one-another, they could have been 'partners' the whole time.
I wasn't really familiar with Malcanthet - she's a devil now too!
Lol, they are both fiend-confused!
So we got a devil who decided to switch sides, and a succubus who also decided to switch sides (to the devils). Maybe she couldn't stand the proximity of Graz'zt? There's definitely a good story in there somewhere.
EDIT: Holy crap, Batman! I just had an epiphany! They could USE THIS!!! What if ALL the succubi were the children of Graz'zt and Malcanthet? Seriously, they could really take some weird inconsistencies and turn them into one helluva story!
BTW, I got this idea when pondering what their children would be like, and I thought "probably very beautiful", but fiendish... and that's when I realized I described the Succubi!
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
quote:I don't see Graz'zt engaging in frivolous fiend-sex just for the sake of it. Unless, of course, his pleasure is the only reason for it.
Of course he would seek a profit from spawning half-fiends, but he's still a demon, so simple pleasure and a kid on accident is also very likely.
When fathering mortal demonspawn, I'd agree. Since we know Graz'zt traditionally has a lot of interest in investing much of his power on the Prime Material. Creating plenty of demonspawn with either willing or unwilling female mortals seems more likely.
Fathering fiendspawn, on the other hand, is slightly more complicated... and brings with it all kinds of demon political baggage. Which is why I don't see Graz'zt allowing his desire for simple pleasure to rule over his judgement so easily in the case of creating spawn with other demons or devils.
Besides, he's very comfortable in his position as a Demon Lord. Fathering fiendspawn haphazardly could potentially create either a future rival to his throne, or a threat to his very power. He's too cunning for that.
Picture this - a young, beautiful Aerynies takes to the battlefield in the Blood War, and despite her ferocity in battle, she is overcome and dragged before the lord of that particular group of soldier-fiends... their commander Graz'zt. Liking what he sees, he offers her a deal to come work for him. Despite her hatred for him - he is considered a 'betrayer' by all loyal Baatezu - she agrees, and they seal the deal with some 'hot lovin'.
Years go by... centuries... Malcanthet spying on her fellow devils for Graz'zt, and her hating every minute of it. The whole time, however, she hatches a plot - she does not tell him or anyone else that she has had many children as a result of their illicit couplings (Aerynies lay clutchs of eggs, like a bird, so she can have many more children then some would think possible). She keeps these offspring secret, and teaches them to revere her as their 'lord mother'.
Inevitably, she is found out, and Asmodeus drives her and her spawn from Hell (he actually tries to destroy her, but Graz'zt warns her... not telling her it was he that informed Asmodeus of her treachery, and plans to increase her power. Graz'zt, being Graz'zt, is playing both sides like usual, and Malcanthet is forced to ask his aid once again, and he allows her and her 'succubus' (Abyssal for 'teat suckers') to stay with him in the Abyss. Eventually, her power grows too mighty for the fiend-lord to control any longer, and she becomes a demon-lord in her own right.
During the ToT, while Graz'zt's attention were 'elsewhere', Malcanthet managed to contact Asmodeus through neutral 3rd parties (Yoggoloths - maybe even Pale Night), and offered him the services of herself and her Succubi (demonic Aerynies) in return for admitting them back into Hell. By this time, she had a veritable army, And the switch is made in the middle of climactic battle of the Bloodwar. Chaos ensued, and many did not know friend from foe (do they ever?), and in the aftermath the Demon Lords asked for parlay (after suffering the worst loses in over 10,000 years). For the first time ever, it appeared the Bloodwar may end... and the heavens wept.
That uneasy truce remains to this day, and thus far Asmodeus and Malcanthet have kept their word to each other. As for Graz'zt, he intends on returning his favorite 'cow' to his stables, or kill her trying.
Hows that for a multi-fix?
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
There's problems. The most powerful succubi emerged from Abyss. They weren't devils. Then from them were born more succubi and dead mortals that went to Abyss started transforming into succubi. Also Malcanthet has many succubi children with Pazuzu, so your idea about ALL succubi being children of Malcanthet and Graz'zt doesn't work.
quote:Originally posted by Ayrik
There's no need to assume such a pairing is consensual. They are fiends after all; either one could force the other to participate.
Unlikely. They can't even succed in killing each other, not to mention rape.
And, from what I understand, their hate isn't that kind of hate in which they just have "angry sex". It is something much more serious. They want the other one dead.
Besides, he's very comfortable in his position as a Demon Lord. Fathering fiendspawn haphazardly could potentially create either a future rival to his throne, or a threat to his very power. He's too cunning for that.
I like the idea of Graz'zt's consorts and children being both a source of power for him, but, also, being eventually a part of his downfall. After all, they inherit his treacherous nature as well as his demon-spark.
He's like a villain that can't help himself -- he always gives in to his lust. At the same time, he inspires great lust in his followers, making him the most insidious of all the Lords [or not - after all, people aren't likely to dismiss him easily, since he rules such a large part of the Abyss].
Perhaps the coolest thing about him is that he is actually a worse villain to the tanar'ri than he is to the baatezu. How destructive is that!
quote:Originally posted by Markustay
But what if Malcanthet was using him?
Picture this - a young, beautiful Aerynies takes to the battlefield in the Blood War, and despite her ferocity in battle, she is overcome and dragged before the lord of that particular group of soldier-fiends... their commander Graz'zt. Liking what he sees, he offers her a deal to come work for him. Despite her hatred for him - he is considered a 'betrayer' by all loyal Baatezu - she agrees, and they seal the deal with some 'hot lovin'.
Years go by... centuries... Malcanthet spying on her fellow devils for Graz'zt, and her hating every minute of it. The whole time, however, she hatches a plot - she does not tell him or anyone else that she has had many children as a result of their illicit couplings (Aerynies lay clutchs of eggs, like a bird, so she can have many more children then some would think possible). She keeps these offspring secret, and teaches them to revere her as their 'lord mother'.
Inevitably, she is found out, and Asmodeus drives her and her spawn from Hell (he actually tries to destroy her, but Graz'zt warns her... not telling her it was he that informed Asmodeus of her treachery, and plans to increase her power. Graz'zt, being Graz'zt, is playing both sides like usual, and Malcanthet is forced to ask his aid once again, and he allows her and her 'succubus' (Abyssal for 'teat suckers') to stay with him in the Abyss. Eventually, her power grows too mighty for the fiend-lord to control any longer, and she becomes a demon-lord in her own right.
During the ToT, while Graz'zt's attention were 'elsewhere', Malcanthet managed to contact Asmodeus through neutral 3rd parties (Yoggoloths - maybe even Pale Night), and offered him the services of herself and her Succubi (demonic Aerynies) in return for admitting them back into Hell. By this time, she had a veritable army, And the switch is made in the middle of climactic battle of the Bloodwar. Chaos ensued, and many did not know friend from foe (do they ever?), and in the aftermath the Demon Lords asked for parlay (after suffering the worst loses in over 10,000 years). For the first time ever, it appeared the Bloodwar may end... and the heavens wept.
That uneasy truce remains to this day, and thus far Asmodeus and Malcanthet have kept their word to each other. As for Graz'zt, he intends on returning his favorite 'cow' to his stables, or kill her trying.
What I meant to say is that being fiends, they could derive enjoyment from fulfilling all sorts of base lusts. Demonstrations of sadism, cruelty, dominance, degradation, and violence could give such fiends far more pleasure than mere physical gratification. All the more so when their victim is a "worthy" and powerful competitor; either of these fiends might reflect upon the lasting (nearly eternal) suffering and rage they cause far more than the transient pleasure they get from killing. Remember that both of these fiends could command any number of lesser fiends or mortals to service them, but such vessels only provide empty rewards. Spiritual corruption sustains them far more than physical corruption.
@Imp - The fact that she has other children with other fiends does not invalidate what I proposed; if anything, it strengthens it (there's a LOT of Succubi, after all).
Also, all succubi are now Devils - what I was offering there was a multi-use 'patch' to bridge the odd continuity glitch between editions. We can't keep ALL lore intact - that doesn't work. What we can say is that the way it was was the way mortals believed it be - that Succubi were always Demons.
If Malcanthet began life as a powerful Aerynies, then it makes sense that her children are of 'that bloodline'. They are not identical to other Aerynies because of the mixed heritage (although children she had with Graz'zt would still be, technically, pure-blood Baatezu).
The diversity amongst fiends - even ones of like 'race' - easily ties into the whole 'mixed parentage' thing.
And as for the 'angry sex' thing - do you really think fiends have ANY other kind?
I fear you are applying human emotions to creatures that are very alien to anything we know (in the mortal world). they do not feel 'love' or 'friendship'... all they have is their hate. Through billions of years of 'evolution', they have managed to take that hate and create a myriad array of emotion-simulating 'shades of grey'.
When I fiend says to another fiend, "I don't feel like killing you today", that is as close to a profession of love as they can get.
So when two creatures who's whole lives are surrounded by hate - beings who thrive on lust BTW - are confronted with one-another and feel 'strong emotion' toward one-another, how can you NOT think they wouldn't 'do it'? I assume its a given. It would almost be like a 'competition thing' (who can last the longest, who can seduce the other, etc...)
Fiends do not 'make love'; you can't base your perceptions on what they are feeling. They do what they do out of hatred as well as anything else (like what a rapist does). I do not like to picture 'fiend sex', but I would imagine to an outsider it would look very much like 'rape' (even though its consensual.. sort of...)
And folks like Graz'zt and Malcanthet use it as a tool to control others - why wouldn't they play a game of attempting to manipulate each other that way? What better 'evil' then make someone fall in love with you, and then betray them? Fortunately, they are both way too smart to fall for that.
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
quote:The fact that she has other children with other fiends does not invalidate what I proposed
You said that all the succubi could be children of Graz'zt, and so have a devil bloodline. But that's not true. A couple of succubi (Malcanthet being one of them) were created, quasi born from the Abyss itself, as demons. Later succubi were born from them or transformed from mortals. Your idea doesn't work. Maybe they were brainwashed in 4th ed, I don't know and I don't care. Succubi are demons.
quote:What we can say is that the way it was was the way mortals believed it be - that Succubi were always Demons.
They were. I don't accept 4th ed lore as canon. And if you use it then your idea isn't that great. I don't know the details, but it sounds like the succubi simply weren't demonic enough. Yes, they were Chaotic Evil and stuff, but they still had to often limit their impulses, because they're not very helpful in manipulating and seducing. And possibly because demons are supposed to be ugly beasts and devils the beautiful evildoers.
Graz'zt wants Malcanthet dead. Malcanthet wants Graz'zt dead. If one would somehow be able to capture or outsmart the other, I doubt they would ****. The captured/outsmarted one would be dead simply because such a chance would possibly never repeat itself and the victor would not risk that the loser could escape.
But I have to base my suppositions on all available canon, and 4e is canon, whether you accept it as such or not. If you don't want to use what I wrote then fine, but Malcanthet must be a devil now, in 4th edition, since all of the other succubi are.
What I don't understand is, I left the old lore intact for older eras - in the 1e/2e/3e eras the Succubi are still 'with the demons' - whats so hard to swallow?
I guess its just a matter of tastes - I always disliked the concept of aerynies, and also had always thought that succubi should be Devils*, so maybe thats why I have no problem with it. I never cared for that bit of redundancy.
The way I wrote it, the Succubi can be considered their own 'sub-group' at this point - the lore is fairly 'one size fits all'.
EDIT: And fiends are about torture and suffering (read Elminster in Hell - they like to toy with their victims). Simply killing someone you hate doesn't sound (to me) at all like a fiend - its sounds more like a mortal (fiends are so much more imaginative when it comes to revenge).
*Right from when I 'discovered' them back in the 1eMM
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
quote:in the 1e/2e/3e eras the Succubi are still 'with the demons' - whats so hard to swallow?
They were born demons, in Abyss.
And succubi are devils NOW, in 4th ed. Before that they were demons, from the start. So saying that they were devils all the time and just came back to their roots in 4th ed doesn't work.
Is there even an explanation why and how succubi became devils? I mean, there are angels that became devils, probably even some that became demons (but I don't know of any). And there is Graz'zt, a devil that became demon. The only thing that should be realy explained is why ALL the succubi made the change, because that they CAN change isn't that weird.
I thought I would interject a couple of thoughts here.
I like Markustay's succubus idea a lot - were I paying detailed attention to 4th Edition canon (I use Pathfinder), I would hijack the concept and use it from his whole cloth example.
Perhaps divide out out the succubi into 'breeds' - demonic succubi are still very much in existence, and predate Malcanthet, even though the official canon says they are devils - and this can be easily explained by 'it's who you ask' (as this conversation has shown. ). This way, Malcanthet's brood just happens to emerge looking exactly like their Abyssal namesakes, and this also explains how a group of frantic scholarly mortal...uh...wizards...made the decision that Lower Planes taxonomy had somehow taken a radical right turn down the Highway to Hell. It would not be the first time the two planes had gotten switched - there is a devil named 'Dagon' (although that is Asmodeus' fault), but the name originally belongs to an othyrion (spelling?), one of the very few remaining 'elder demons' that predate the tanar'ri.
To make it worse, the natural abilities of both 'breeds' are almost exactly the same (maybe a slight variation here and there, like a Tanzanian lemur versus one from Madagascar), and this makes it a challenge for mortal summoners when they want Breed X but get Breed Y instead. Like erinyes, infernal succubi can be 'promoted' to brachinas/pleasure devils, but abyssal ones, obviously, cannot. Conversely, abyssal succubi can become lillitu, while infernal ones cannot. All it takes is how the mortal scholars understand the whole concept - if indeed, they understand it at all.
Just thought I would toss that out for consideration. This seems to me where both fans and Wizbro can have their cake and eat it, too.
quote:demonic succubi are still very much in existence, and predate Malcanthet
Err... There was no succubi predating Malcanthet. She was one of the first (together with Shami-Amlaure, Lynkhab and probably a couple of others), a true breed, as you called it. So if Malcanthet really became a devil, all other succubi could also, because they're less pure than her.
Graz'zt's & Malcanthet's kid
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 22:48:47
