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The Dark Prince is a deeply sexual, erotic being. He is known on many worlds only in legend, as a dark figure who visits witches and sorcerers, granting them sexual favors as well as magical powers. As a result, his female consorts have populated the multiverse with a depraved host of half-fiend children. Some learn of their father's identity and delve into the Abyss, hoping to usurp his power. His dark elf son, Athux, leads Graz'zt's demonic army, while his daughter Thraxxia serves as a private assassin. His son Arzial, the Blooded Baron, serves him as a vassal. Other children of Graz'zt include Belyara and Rule-of-Three.

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Originally posted by Imp

Rule-of-Three is his child, but it doesn't say who is the mother.

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Originally posted by Imp

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His dark elf son, Athux, leads Graz'zt's demonic army, while his daughter Thraxxia serves as a private assassin. His son Arzial, the Blooded Baron, serves him as a vassal. Other children of Graz'zt include Belyara and Rule-of-Three.

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Rule-of-Three is his child, but it doesn't say who is the mother.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Graz'zt was a devil first.

Well...he was a devil before he was a demon anyway... who knows what he started out as.

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Originally posted by Jakk

I also like the Sage's idea that the Lady of Pain is Rule-of-Three's mother...

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... of course, I know very little about RoT to begin with, so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here. Clearly I need to re-read some of my older sources... which means getting them moved closer to me somehow...

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Maybe he started out as a drow... that would explain his appearance (which means nothing, I know) and the fact that his general is his son by a dark elf.

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Originally posted by Zireael

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Maybe he started out as a drow... that would explain his appearance (which means nothing, I know) and the fact that his general is his son by a dark elf.

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That's an awesome idea, y'know!

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Originally posted by Imp

Dragon #353. Malcanthet is described as one of the first succubi that were spontanously spawned by the Abyss. It's not important if she was first or tenth. She was created by the Abyss itself. Many DMs definitely have their own homebrewed myths, but we know how it went.

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Originally posted by Jakk

Kilvan: The drow are a fairly old race, but you're right about many demon lords and archdevils being far older than that. As far as Graz'zt in particular, I don't have enough information close at hand to check this (if such lore has ever been published to begin with).

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Originally posted by Kilvan

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Originally posted by Jakk

Kilvan: The drow are a fairly old race, but you're right about many demon lords and archdevils being far older than that. As far as Graz'zt in particular, I don't have enough information close at hand to check this (if such lore has ever been published to begin with).

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I think it is canon he was around before Asmodeus fell from Heaven. 4e revealed him as a devil first THEN a demon lord.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Homebrew:

'zt is a prefix in abyssal, meaning 'traitor'. However, to them, this isn't necessarily a bad thing (it has a more 'clever opportunist' bent to it).

'High' Drow (which is distantly related to Hamarfae - both have Fey as a parent-language) has adopted many terms from Abyssal, due to Lolth's long establishment as a 'Demon Queen'. Hence, the prefix 'zt has come into their language, meaning something akin to 'clever betrayer'.

Thus, Drizzt's birth-name was Driz Do'Urden - he himself barely remembers this, because he has born the Driz'zt monicker (proudly) for so long.

Now apply this to Graz'zt's history.

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Originally posted by Kilvan

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Originally posted by Jakk

Kilvan: The drow are a fairly old race, but you're right about many demon lords and archdevils being far older than that. As far as Graz'zt in particular, I don't have enough information close at hand to check this (if such lore has ever been published to begin with).

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I think it is canon he was around before Asmodeus fell from Heaven. 4e revealed him as a devil first THEN a demon lord.

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HOWEVER, according to Guide to Hell, Asmodeus is an aspect of Ahriman, who has been 'trapped in hell' since the creation of the Planes (the Great Wheel). That would make his fall predate the Godwar, even (which I think was also the start of the Bloodwar). His fall was part of the creation of the (current) universal structure.


Which is interesting, in retrospect - Asmodeus is now a 'big bad' in 4e, and the planer structure (Great Wheel) has fallen apart. Apparently, he has escaped his prison.

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I was thinking Lolth could be his mom - some long-lost 'love child', but then I realized Pale Night is supposed to be his mother.

Drow originated in GH (from a meta-game standpoint), so it would make some sense if Grazzt - or his lineage - began there as well. However, since I personally think that Drow were all created by the Descent Curse (which happened on Toril), it would not make much sense for him to be one of Lolth's children (Lolth started out as a 'dark' Elf, not a Drow - they came MUCH later).

So now I'm thinking that Lolth and Graz'zt are siblings, which would mean Pale Knight would be Lolth's mother (kewl, right? ). Think about it - Pale knight is supposedly some sort of 'proto-fiend' (a primordial?), and BOTH Lolth and Graz'zt are on-again, off-again demons.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Homebrew:

'zt is a suffix in abyssal, meaning 'traitor'. However, to them, this isn't necessarily a bad thing (it has a more 'clever opportunist' bent to it).

'High' Drow (which is distantly related to Hamarfae - both have Fey as a parent-language) has adopted many terms from Abyssal, due to Lolth's long establishment as a 'Demon Queen'. Hence, the suffix 'zt has come into their language, meaning something akin to 'clever betrayer'.

Thus, Drizzt's birth-name was Driz Do'Urden - he himself barely remembers this, because he has born the Driz'zt monicker (proudly) for so long.

Now apply this to Graz'zt's history.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I was thinking Lolth could be his mom - some long-lost 'love child', but then I realized Pale Night is supposed to be his mother.

Drow originated in GH (from a meta-game standpoint), so it would make some sense if Grazzt - or his lineage - began there as well. However, since I personally think that Drow were all created by the Descent Curse (which happened on Toril), it would not make much sense for him to be one of Lolth's children (Lolth started out as a 'dark' Elf, not a Drow - they came MUCH later).

So now I'm thinking that Lolth and Graz'zt are siblings, which would mean Pale Knight would be Lolth's mother (kewl, right? ). Think about it - Pale knight is supposedly some sort of 'proto-fiend' (a primordial?), and BOTH Lolth and Graz'zt are on-again, off-again demons.

Which means Maelkith (King of the ancient dark elves, canon from Marvel comics, not D&D) could still be the father - he sleeps with an 'ancient evil' (Pale Night), and at least two children are born.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Now, I have theorized that Titania and the QoA&D (Auril in 4e) are both daughters of the primordial power Danu (who happens to be both a Celtic and Vedic deity - convenient for a proto-power, no?). That means Pale Night and Danu could be one and the same, or even siblings themselves, making Corellon and Araushnee (Lolth) cousins - but most of the RW deities are related in some manner, and these would be considered 'archtypes' (ancient powers from the time of the Creator Races).

Just more ramblings from the deeper recesses of my mind; make of it what you want.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I was working on that, in the form of ancient Elven/Fey texts discovered in the Drow vaults of Kule (a planet in greyspace). I was framing in the same style (and with the same NPC) as the rest of my Elven Netbook articles - he himself was a Drow from Kule. Part of the back-story was that although reminiscent of modern High Drow (which is related to Elven Hamarfae), the texts had been indecipherable for tousands of years. A centaur scholar (traveling with dracons) happened to have been marooned (the ship had trouble) on Kule, and through a strange twist of fate was able to read Gęlvyan (High Sylvan - the language of Fey nobility, or Le'Shay).

They were called The Tablets of Destiny¹, and contained a history of the Eladrin people in Faerie. Parts were missing or obscured (I did this on purpose in order to gloss-over parts).

They told the tale of two brothers, twins in fact - Cor'Ellion the fair, and Teylas, called Gru-Maas, which meant 'wild spirit' in Sylvan (the common tongue of the Feywild) - born from their mother the Faerie Queen, Titania, but with two different fathers. Cor'Ellion's father was Frey, Lord of Light Elves in Vanaheim, and Gru-Maas was the child Malkith², called the Albino Prince, who ruled in Svartįlfar. Titania and Aurilana were sisters (twins were very common amongst the Fey, back then), and all Fey worshiped Danu, a primal spirit (Obyrith), in those ancient times (amongst other primordial powers). Malkith also had relations with Pale Night, another Primal Spirit, who in the form of a dark (Unseelie) fey gave birth to Graas and Auraushnee (making Lolth and Gruumsh half-siblings, unknown to them). Pale Night also gave birth to others while in this form, but their stories are for another day.

That was the basic gist of it, or at least, how it began, and it detailed 1000 years of Elven history on each 21 tablets (but the final two tablets were missing, and perhaps one other). Hopefully I can get back to it some day. That was actually 'Part III' of my over-cosmoloigy (the first part having to do with the creation of the universe, the Great wheel, and the Planes, and second the War in the heavens, the fall of Ahriman, and the Sundering of the True World). Each part was only partially complete - it was the basis of my 'theory of everything (D&D)' project.

I borrow from Mesopotamian and Vedic mythology heavily for the early stuff, and then work my way into the 'lesser' mythologies (Norse, Pharonic, Mediterranean, Celtic - which is actually part of the fey pantheon, etc). I also have it where Baast is responsible for the Rakshasa - she is also a primal spirit, along with Set - they are ancient enemies.


¹ Similar, and related to, the Sumerian Tablet of Destinies, which are tied-into Tiamet, who is also very important in my proto-cosmology.

²I like Malkith as Malkizid - I will use that, if its okay with you. I've already tweaked my theory (I had it where Malkith was called 'the dark prince', but that doesn't fit with Malkizid.

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Originally posted by Markustay

<snip>
Tiamet created the first scorpionmen (RW mythology) so I linked their creation (in DR - the T'lincalis) with her and Lolth - they had a schism in Maztica, and Maztican Drow worshiped Tiamet for a time (and some still might). Ergo, my Maztican drow are a LOT like Eberron Drow, and this dichotomy with the gods and 'their' drow also helps explain the similarities between the T'lincalis and the Drider (also, that T'lin means something akin to 'unfaithful' in drowish - their is a city called T'lindhet in Underdark)

I try to use etymology in my stuff as much as possible.

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