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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 00:53:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
(Unless you just imported sparkling vampires to the realms...
Regardless of Meyer's impression otherwise, proper vampires don't sparkle and they aren't lame.
And rest assured, that the vampires I use (and I just finished fixing up a vampire scene in Eye of Justice--which takes place in Westgate, of course) are NOT sparkly, NOT charming, and NOT emo. Dark, terrifying, and deadly--that's the ticket.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 02:34:52
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Dude, if you were prettier, I'd kiss you. 
On the other hand, it would be a fun experiment to write a (Planescape?) story about a human who's people dwelt on or near the plain of Radiance (or maybe mineral), who is bitten by a vampire, and is now in constant pain by its own duelistic nature.
In other words, 'being sparkly' now causes it excruciating pain.
The thought of 'sparkly vamps' being in constant agony fills me with great joy - does that make me a bad person? 
New Lore:
When the Spellplague hit, the Dragonwall exploded. Unfortunately, we have conflicting lore regarding the wall - weather it is the dragon itself, turned to stone by powerful (artifact-class) magic, or that the 'spirit' of the dragon was bound into the mortar, and as sections were repaired, parts of the (Celestial) Dragon's spirit broke free. The first is a legend from the K-T sources, the second info from a module, and the novel (3rd source) doesn't really disagree with either (although the module seems to support what was in the novel).
In the K-T thread/project, we had decided the dragon was originally turned to stone, as the legends say (Tan Chin was involved, so we don't want to change his history), but the Dragon wasn't really that big. Huge by terrestrial dragon standards, but still not the thousand-mile long edifice it became. When the Copper Demon of Tros invaded northern Kara-Tur, his army went around the wall, and then managed to destroy most of it during the conflict. After his defeat, the Imperial Wujen got together and came up with a plan to rebuild the wall, strengthen it, and make it much longer, to avoid all the problems of the past. They crushed the rubble that remained into a fine powder, and combined that with the mortar of the new wall. Stone blocks were dragged (by giants) hundreds of miles for this work, placed by magic, and then held in place by the divinely empowered mortar, which still contained the Celestial dragon's trapped spirit.
That fixes past lore.
In 4e it went BOOM. That was all we know. What I had in my 'future conjecture' in the K-T project was that a massive chasm opened up where the wall once stood, literally splitting K-T from Faerun. This trench is over a mile deep, even longer then the original wall, and has a river of lava flowing along its bottom. At the same time the wall exploded and chasm opened, a massive earthquake shook the Steppes, and Sentinelspire erupted in a phenomenal display, spouting flaming rock, smoke, and balls of lava for hundreds of miles around. The main flow of lava traveled down into the ancient (and dry) Quoya basin, across it (and seemed to flow around the horseshoe Temple Oasis), gathering both speed and power as it picked-up more lava and debris from smaller eruptions in the desert itself, until finally, in an awesome display of power and majesty it poured through a narrow upward-climbing ravine, reached the lip of the chasm, and then arced out over the space like a great fountain of liquid stone.
This display went on for days, according to Tuigan legend, until finally the flow abated, and the rock cooled. In wonder, the locals - when they were finally brave enough to approach - found that the great gout of molten rock had reached the far side of the trench! An arch of stone now spanned the five miles of space where the wall had once stood, forming a bridge the likes of which no one had ever seen. The dwarves of both Siremun and the Glittering Spires came to investigate the site, and proclaimed it holy to the Morndinsamman.
Groups from the two kingdoms - both Shield and Gold dwarves - along with eastern dwarves (Korobokuru) settled the region, and cleared a smooth path on the top of the arch to allow wagon, foot, and horse travel across its surface. over the next decade, teams worked tirelessly to hollow-out a central tunnnel, which was opened with much fanfare in 1396 DR. Since that time, the dwarves have continued to hollow-out portions of the great arch, turning the entire interior into a maze of tunnels, workshops, and dwelling, until it has become a city unto itself. They now charge a nominal fee for admittance to their passages, and the city of Archengrym is now a popular rest-stop along the eastern tradeway (the Golden Way now runs down to this more southerly crossing). The route across the top is still free, but seldom used anymore - it has fallen into disrepair and is traveled at your own risk. the outside air is also foul, due to the rising fumes of the sulpherous river below.
The dwarves have managed to develop all manner of ingenious devices to keep the air fresh inside the arch, and massive hot-air powered fans help keep the rock itself cool (against the rising heat from below), and re-distributes it into the air above (another hazard for top-traveling parties). the arch-city of the dwarves is the only safe passage now between Kara-Tur and the Eastern Realms. Even flying creatures normally avoid going over the crevasse because of the heat and fumes (dragons being an obvious exception).
And so it stands in 4e - no longer does a wall separate east from west, but rather a chasm most foul, and only through a twist of fate and the industriousness of the dwarves can folk still travel between the two sides of the continent.
I figured I should use that somewhere. I was going to save it for my own setting (along with much of the K-T lore I developed), but since my notes are all gone I doubt that project will ever get finished now. I thought a bridge that was a city was a pretty unique concept.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jan 2012 04:11:41 |
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Super Wizard
Acolyte
31 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 03:35:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
To me, that is not LAWFUL GOOD, but LAWFUL STUPID.
nah bra... That aint lawful stoopid. That be conviction. |
Unstoppably Awesome to the Max |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 05:45:13
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Twilight... about 5 seconds before it's properly "fixed". 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4454 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 06:07:56
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| I actually like THIS one much better. Oh snap! |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 07:18:15
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| What could be done about the Drow deities?I feel that Lolth has gathered up too much power in her hands lying unchallenged...I feel that the Drow setting is now perfectly dull what with it being just Lolth running amok.Lolth NEEDS someone to oppose her.Either Corellon takes a much more active hand in this situation i.e resurrect Aryvandaar to oppose her(perhaps a faction that remained loyal to him that was sealed away by their peers or something).Or WOTC could scratch their brains and find some way for Eilistraee to be brought back to life(i found the Masked Lady concept fascinating). |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 15:55:31
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As I said before:
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
What could be done about the Drow deities?I feel that Lolth has gathered up too much power in her hands lying unchallenged...I feel that the Drow setting is now perfectly dull what with it being just Lolth running amok.Lolth NEEDS someone to oppose her.Either Corellon takes a much more active hand in this situation i.e resurrect Aryvandaar to oppose her(perhaps a faction that remained loyal to him that was sealed away by their peers or something).Or WOTC could scratch their brains and find some way for Eilistraee to be brought back to life(i found the Masked Lady concept fascinating).
This specific aspect of drow is NDA. Check out the Menzoberranzan book, as well as other forthcoming WotC products.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 16:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I actually like THIS one much better. Oh snap!
LOVE it |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 16:39:07
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Combine Lolth with something else and it all works.
Unfortunately, that kinda screws a lot of old lore, but its do-able. During her 'silence' more could have been going on then we currently realize.
Lolth as Lloth AND uber-powerful doesn't work for me. I met her back in Greyhawk and that's NOT what she was meant to be. If she has become something else now, I am fine with that - things change and that is understandable.
However, I don't want there to be dozens of 'uber-baddies' running around the cosmos - its just ridiculous. Look at any other mythology/cosmology; there is usually just one 'bad apple', sometimes one or two others who are 'questionable', but very rarely are there dozens of evil gods. First off, they'd all kill each other (like the fiends), and we got Asmodeus and this Zehir-thingy now.
So lets start 're-imagining' what Lolth has become, and go from there. Blending her with Shar would work, but would also piss-off the most people. Now that Auril is the QoA&D she would also make a decent choice (although the cold thing would take some tweaking). Maybe just give Cold to the Raven Queen - some re-arranging (for the post-plague pantheon) would be in order. Use the fey/Elven angle and give us ancient powers operating under culture-specific aliases.
Or de-power Lolth and put her back where she belongs - as an 'elemental evil'* - its that simple.
Thats just for Lolth. As for the others, I think they should be combined with more universal powers as well (like how Mielikki had an Elven alias). In fact, am I the only one that thinks Mielikki would also work for Eilistraee? If Mielikki is also the Elven power Khalreshaar, and we know the Drow deities were once part of the Seldarine, how far a stretch is it, really? (I also think Mielikki is the Sumerian power Ki, but thats another story).
The Elven/Fey pantheon(s) are ANCIENT - I think many of them would be part of other pantheons, IMHO. D&D needs to stop shoe-horning their own lore into RW mythos, and just create a brand-new over-cosmology from scratch (which would include the 'lesser', culture-specific mythologies). After 35 years, D&D should stand on its own at this point. The 5e rules should just create 'archtypes' (we used to have those) in the core rules,and build off of them for each culture.
This would mean re-writing parts of Planescape (although not as much as you would think - it was always supposed to be 'deep mysteries' and 'great unknowns'), but after the nuking it got with the 4e lore, it needs to be rebuilt anyway.
Wrong thread, I know - they all seem to be going all over the place ATM. Sorry.
*I realize she has nothing to do with 'elements', but this was established years ago, so I just assume that that particular term is just a 'catch-all' for beings who have cults rather then religions. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jan 2012 16:49:40 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2012 : 01:40:20
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quote:
Markustay
If it were me, I would do something with Tyranthraxus.
I think it very unlikely Tyranthraxus is related in any way to Tyr; in fact, it is the followers of Tyr who most vigilantly and diligently thwart Tyranthraxus' evil efforts.
If there is anything more to the names than mere coincidence then I'd suggest Tyranthraxus, the Flamed One, the Possessing Spirit, is far more likely related to Tyrannos - another name for Bane. Bane and Tyranthraxus (along with Maram of the Great Spear, Haask Voice of Hargut, Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud, and Camnod the Unseen) think very much alike and obviously go way back.
FRC1 Ruins of Adventure never states that Tyranthraxus is a fiend, although it does say that Tyranthraxus is "extra-planar" and "the Pool of Radiance is a portal to one of the darker planes (which one is currently unknown)". FRC2 Curse of the Azure Bonds repeatedly refers to Tyranthraxus as a daemon, although it also says "it is not known what nether pit spawned Tyranthraxus, for none of the lower planes will claim him; he seems to be eternally bound to the power of the Pool of Radiance". Villains' Lorebook repeats the FRC2 description of Tyranthraxus, but also affirms that he is Lawful Evil. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2012 : 13:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As I said before:
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
What could be done about the Drow deities?I feel that Lolth has gathered up too much power in her hands lying unchallenged...I feel that the Drow setting is now perfectly dull what with it being just Lolth running amok.Lolth NEEDS someone to oppose her.Either Corellon takes a much more active hand in this situation i.e resurrect Aryvandaar to oppose her(perhaps a faction that remained loyal to him that was sealed away by their peers or something).Or WOTC could scratch their brains and find some way for Eilistraee to be brought back to life(i found the Masked Lady concept fascinating).
This specific aspect of drow is NDA. Check out the Menzoberranzan book, as well as other forthcoming WotC products.
Cheers
Well its okay with me that its not under discussion because it means that at least something is being worked on... |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2012 : 13:24:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well its okay with me that its not under discussion because it means that at least something is being worked on...
If only it was true for all NDAs... |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2012 : 22:35:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Markustay
If it were me, I would do something with Tyranthraxus.
I think it very unlikely Tyranthraxus is related in any way to Tyr; in fact, it is the followers of Tyr who most vigilantly and diligently thwart Tyranthraxus' evil efforts.
If there is anything more to the names than mere coincidence then I'd suggest Tyranthraxus, the Flamed One, the Possessing Spirit, is far more likely related to Tyrannos - another name for Bane. Bane and Tyranthraxus (along with Maram of the Great Spear, Haask Voice of Hargut, Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud, and Camnod the Unseen) think very much alike and obviously go way back.
FRC1 Ruins of Adventure never states that Tyranthraxus is a fiend, although it does say that Tyranthraxus is "extra-planar" and "the Pool of Radiance is a portal to one of the darker planes (which one is currently unknown)". FRC2 Curse of the Azure Bonds repeatedly refers to Tyranthraxus as a daemon, although it also says "it is not known what nether pit spawned Tyranthraxus, for none of the lower planes will claim him; he seems to be eternally bound to the power of the Pool of Radiance". Villains' Lorebook repeats the FRC2 description of Tyranthraxus, but also affirms that he is Lawful Evil.
Tyranthraxus, Camnod, Borem, Haask, and Maram do go way back with the Dark Three (Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul); the latter three were associates as mortals and ascended to divinity together by defeating and/or slaying the first five. There is more detailed information elsewhere in the 'Keep; I've contributed to discussion in at least one such scroll, and I'm sure it's not the only one. I've found the best way to search for specific terms in Candlekeep is to use Google Advanced Search and limit search results to the domain "forum.candlekeep.com"; you'll get a lot of cached "message in progress" pages, but still a much more focused list than the internal search function, which doesn't give you page numbers; if it's a long scroll, you have to search each page individually. Particulary difficult when it's one of Ed's completed annual scrolls.
On that last note: Sage: Has the CK search function been upgraded at all during my absence? I thought I should check on that before giving too much advice that might be out of date.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2012 : 23:00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Sorry, it's hard not to feel that way. I wouldn't feel passionately about this stuff if I didn't love the earlier Realms. *sigh*
Most definitely agreed. It's why I'd intended to step back from this discussion... but then Erik and Mark came up with some Really Good Ideas (TM). Erik, I love your take on the Tyr scenario. My current 3.5 DM played a paladin of Tyr in the last 2E campaign I ran (which lasted 5 years, ending in the spring of 2000, and took the PCs past level 20; I miss college), and he was more than a little ticked off at the description of events given at the end of the GHotR, as was I.
Mark, the Dragonwall scenario is brilliant! I'm guessing that without PS, you're not really in a position to give us a map...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2012 : 17:08:35
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I think I've got another one: alignments.
4e cut 4 of the 9 alignments, CN, LN, CG and LE. These were not only guidelines for PCs, they had an impact on every pantheons. Heck, the origin of the universe (according to the primeval pact), was based on law trying to contain chaos. Good and evil came after.
We know LE once existed, otherwise the whole blood war issue would've had no meaning. All that talk about balance makes no sense anymore, now that chaos = evil and law = good (though you can be NG and NE). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2012 : 19:17:20
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Good point.
I would just say that (for game purposes) we got the 'boiled down' versions of the alignements, in the simplified, 4e rules set.
That doesn't mean those alignments don't still hold true in the planes - the mechanics simply did not reflect it, because it was pretty-much a non-issue from a mortal (in-game) perspective.
A bit wishy-washy, I know, but that works for me.
I boiled-down the Great Wheel a long time ago for similar reasons, but kept the 9 alignments because it is great for 'cosmic' balance. I think they just took it too far (but I do understand there reasoning).
EDIT: I need to work on that - it is way out-dated from some of my current musings. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jan 2012 22:38:28 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2012 : 19:30:29
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If you cast Detect Law on a devil, what would you detect? Based on the MM, nothing at all. Mortals had a comprehension of alignment in a 2-axis system, and had the magical means to detect their own alignment.
EDIT: I have no idea if there are ways to detect alignment in 4e. Can paladins still detect evil? Are there clerical equivalent to the detect spell-line from earlier version?
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Edited by - Kilvan on 28 Jan 2012 19:34:23 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2012 : 20:56:44
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4e removed alignment from mechanical relevance, basically. There aren't any effects I can think of that have anything to do with alignment (i.e. no spells that affect evil and good creatures differently, no *smite evil* that's useless against neutral foes, etc). No spells to detect alignment. Alignment exists ONLY as a tool for RP, and specifically as a shorthand for DMs to tell how a creature generally feels about the world.
I like alignment not being mechanically relevant, but pruning down the system doesn't really work for me. I think WotC decided Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil were just complicated concepts (which they are) and the complexity wasn't worth the benefits in the game (debatable). "Lawful Good" is just a type of good, while "Chaotic Evil" is just a type of evil.
If the new edition of D&D brings back the nine alignments, all the better. But I like to see it being a RP guide, rather than a mechanical attribute.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2012 : 21:13:56
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| I agree, a little bit, but don't you think that such a change has a major impact on the lore? Alignment has played an important role in some issues and important relationships. The 2-axis system is the foundation of the very core of the multi-universe, and I don't think any effort were made to explain the effect (or the reason) of this change. |
Edited by - Kilvan on 28 Jan 2012 21:16:09 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2012 : 22:53:42
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Yes and no.
To us, who love every bit of minutia of FR and the greater D&D universe, it matters a lot. In-game, not really.
I always hated alignment-based stuff (as a DM), because it was prickly subject. If the good-aligned Paladin decided you are evil and tries to kill you, is he evil? (if he is wrong) What if he is being mind-controlled? His actions are evil, and the one controlling him is evil. What if he is just being physically manipulated, like a puppet? As he hacks at you and begs for forgivness, are his actions evil?
I'm glad its gone (from the mechanics), but I want to see it back in Planescape (GW cosmology).
And Planescape doesn't really need The Great Wheel (we've beaten this subject to death). The Wheel is just how some mortals picture the Planer landscape. Others picture a tree, others river, others the back of giant turtle, etc. The Outer Planes are defined by mortal belief - you make your own reality. If you believe there is a floor, you can walk. if your friend doesn't, then he just floats in the air.
Even the concept of 9 alignments isn't perfect - there are hundreds of permutations of each - 'shades of grey' - we mortals can only comprehend so much. The more powerful beings - archfiends and deities - they can see the full spectrum.
This is why when I DM'd a 'detect alignment' situation, I went with 'intent'. A villain who is currently helping a child find its way home from the forest is being good, despite everything else, and a goodly priest who spitefully sabotages a visiting priest's sermon out of jealousy is 'evil', despite everything else.
So alignment is a 'situational thing'. Even Asmodeus has his good moments. 
This is why 4e threw it away - it had too many variables. I have been working on a more complicated point-system for good & evil, law & chaos, that might work - I haven't tested it yet. Its similar to the way Elan worked in the old Stormbringer game. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jan 2012 23:30:58 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4454 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2012 : 23:07:52
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| I was fine with the 9 point alignment system except for it's involvement with the mechanics of the rules. A Paladin's Detect Evil at will could become irksome for DMs and what sort of Wizard is going to tote around 4 different Protection from X scrolls around hm? Also, I'm glad it was expelled as class requirements. Really, they had no relevant mechanical reason for being there except to define the sort of "Fluff" they wanted a player to feel for the class. Sorry but Ta'mok was NOT a Chaotic barbarian, he was actually pretty stoic and stern and honorable, things many "Barbarians" aren't. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2012 : 23:14:00
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I think a paladin who viciously attacks someone simply based on alignment is about to lose his powers for a while (if not forever). Evil =/= guilty. I can understand that everything and everyone isn't strictly defined within 9 alignments, and that you are not restricted to evil-only actions if you are evil. That is why it is a 2-AXIS system, with an infinite degree of freedom on both (shades of grey). And you are defined by the average of your actions, so a LG can perform a chaotic and/or evil action, and maybe feel really bad about it after, or not at all (or as I call it, role-playing).
Once you understood how to manage both axis, it works in almost any situation. I know the concept of LE or CG can be hard to grasp for new players. And not to bash on younger players (I was one once), but this might be even more difficult for them to understand. I sure didn't get the difference between CN and LN 15 years ago, but now it seems really obvious.
I love the 2-axis system, and it really bothered me that it went away. It played no small part in me not jumping into the 4e mechanics. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 06:38:58
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I don't really understand the change in the alignment system being a deal-breaker. Alignment, IMO, should be a roleplaying aid, not a mechanical thing. And how you role-play is not something any rulebook can teach you. I'd be fine with alignment evaporating from the game, or at least being optional.
I don't think it affects the lore. People's actions are still their actions, regardless of an esoteric moral measurement.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 07:04:22
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I think that as a campaign escalates, and PCs become more powerful (read: attracted the attention of 'the gods'), alignment does become an issue, especially when they start venturing into the Planes. The Outer Planes are defined by alignment - its impossible to separate them from the original, GW cosmology.
4e has more of a 'wishy washy' (I know, I've been throwing that term around a lot lately, but thats just how I think about a lot of 4e - ill-defined) cosmology, IMO. After throwing out alignment (from the rules), they felt they needed to... free? ... the planes from their alignment tethers, but it just doesn't work. We have 35 years of lore telling us precisely how the planes work.
So yes, at the 1st tier (Heroic) and most of the 2nd (Paragon), alignment shouldn't matter, but once PCs start to enter that Epic tier alignment should matter, because they will be interacting with extra-planer creatures, and those creatures base much of what they do on the alignment of the mortals they encounter.
And in a Planescape game, its essential.
BTW, most of the campaigns I ran petered-out around level 12, so I never ran into that 'alignment wall', and thats why I was able to just ignore it most of the time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jan 2012 19:41:09 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 09:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I don't really understand the change in the alignment system being a deal-breaker. Alignment, IMO, should be a roleplaying aid, not a mechanical thing. And how you role-play is not something any rulebook can teach you. I'd be fine with alignment evaporating from the game, or at least being optional.
I don't think it affects the lore. People's actions are still their actions, regardless of an esoteric moral measurement.
Cheers
I agree with Erik. Alignment while giving a nice 'path' to follow for a character (or a monster) should be just a role playing aid. If it is used as a game mechanic it can be a 'burden'; e.g a paladin of Tyr clashing with a LG priest of Helm should be quite realistic and not in any way hindered by their LG alignment. Each would argue to be on the LG side from his/her perspective and be correct about it as well.
I also do not see why using the aligment as an RP aid would affect using planar creatures or whatever canon is published. The blood war -for example would still be as valid with aligment as a RP aid as opposed to a game mechanic... |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 09:17:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think that as a campaign escalates, and PCs become more powerful (read: attracted the attention of 'the gods'), alignment does become an issue, especially when they start venturing into the Planes. The Outer Planes are defined by alignment - its impossible to separate them from the original, GW cosmology.
4e has more of a 'wishy washy' (I know, I've been throwing that term around a lot lately, but thats just how I think about a lot of 4e - ill-defined) cosmology, IMO. After throwing out alignment (from the rules), they felt they needed to... free? ... the planes from their alignment tethers, but it just doesn't work. We have 35 years of lore telling us precisely how the planes work.
So yes, at the 1st tier (Heroic) and most of the 2nd (Paragon), alignment shouldn't matter, but once PCs start to enter that Epic tier alignment should matter, because they will be interacting with extra-planer creatures, and those creatures base much of what they do on the alignment of the mortals they encounter.
And in a Planescape game, its essential.
BTW, most of thew campaigns I ran petered-out around level 12, so I never ran into that 'alignment wall', and thats why I was able to just ignore it most of the time.
I definitely agree with you on this, Mark; as adventurers become more powerful, they attract the attention of extraplanar beings, often without intending to do so, and there will be pressure on the PCs to "pick a side" and declare themselves for one or the other moral (good/evil) or ethical (law/chaos) viewpoint (the 3x3 alignment system never went away for my groups, mostly because we didn't stay with 4E... although that decision was partly based on the changes 4E made to alignment). I do agree that alignment shouldn't be a *big* deal at lower levels; as a DM, I've allowed paladins of any alignment for years; the only stricture was that the paladin's alignment had to be exactly the same as his or her deity's alignment, with the usual pre-4E consequences of straying from that path. I've never thought of alignment as a game mechanic unless a player was playing a cleric or paladin, and then it is definitely a game mechanic; gods are defined in part by their alignment, as well as (mostly) by their ethos (which, again, comes back to alignment) and portfolio (which may influence alignment; a god of murder is almost certainly evil). Without alignment being represented in any way, I think D&D might as well throw the paladin class and major aspects of the cleric class out the window with it, but I also think that it should be a purely "fluff" attribute except in the case of those two classes. Even the druid doesn't need alignment; nature is indifferent to the morals and ethics of the civilized world, and nature is what matters to the druid. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 30 Jan 2012 09:18:24 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 13:45:29
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Maybe it wasn't so much that it was important, it was that it worked. As I've said, alignment doesn't dictates everything in RP, its is just a guideline. That's true for the mechanic part.
I'm just saying that outside the mechanics, alignment played a pretty big role in the lore. As Markus pointed out, powerful extraplanar beings come into play, but also religions, planes, spells, and so on.
I don't think it is something that cannot be changed (though it shouldn't), it just deserves some explanations. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 13:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Alignment while giving a nice 'path' to follow for a character (or a monster) should be just a role playing aid. If it is used as a game mechanic it can be a 'burden'; e.g a paladin of Tyr clashing with a LG priest of Helm should be quite realistic and not in any way hindered by their LG alignment.
Now THAT'S ridiculous. Why would a follower of Helm ever be against a follower of Tyr?...
...
Oh wait
EDIT: Joking aside, I think I came up as someone who takes alignments too seriously, and I'm not. I know about shades of grey, I know evil characters can do good, and vice-versa. I know being of the same alignment =/= being allies and being of opposite alignment =/= being enemies.
I wanted to bring the alignment issue to the table because it changed drastically without much explanation, and I think it brings some holes in the lore. And also because I want my character to show up in a novel! |
Edited by - Kilvan on 30 Jan 2012 13:53:24 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 16:12:39
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I wonder if we're overstating the value of alignment in the lore. I think powerful extraplanar entities weren't defined by their alignment--rather, their alignment was defined by THEM. For example, IMO, Devils have a rigid organizational structure--hence, they are lawful evil, not vice versa. It's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg situation, but you see what I'm getting at?
It's absolutely the case that alignment is extremely helpful in shaping the personality/outlook/purpose of a creature, but there's so much room for ambiguity in moral/ethical debates that a "looser" alignment system seems much more realistic to me than a strict two-axis system.
I also wonder if alignment isn't an outdated concept that is more restrictive and complicating to the game than is worth it. Does alignment make the game more fun? Or does it just place too many strictures on your character?
I guess I'm wishy-washy about it as well. Alignment is largely ignored in my games (all the way back to 1e games). I treat it like encumbrance: it doesn't really affect you, unless you do something really egregious (like carry 100,000 gp in your backpack).
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 16:43:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if we're overstating the value of alignment in the lore. I think powerful extraplanar entities weren't defined by their alignment--rather, their alignment was defined by THEM. For example, IMO, Devils have a rigid organizational structure--hence, they are lawful evil, not vice versa. It's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg situation, but you see what I'm getting at?
That's an interesting point you are raising, and I think you might be right for the majority of the outsiders. I always thought that a demon was made of evil and chaos, like an actual energy feeding them. They wouldn't choose to be CE, they just are, in that case they are defined by their alignment, not the opposite. Slaads, on the other hands, have a certain culture that is vastly chaotic.
I don't know why I gave this specific genesis to demons (and devils/ yugoloths/ eladrins/ guardinals/ archons), and not to other extraplanar creatures. To me, they are created by the essence of their alignment just like a fire elemental is made of Fire energy.
And I don't think I ever read any of this in any sourcebook, it is just the way my fragile and naive little mind has always understood it.  |
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