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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36834 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 05:32:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Topic: The Eldest and Ao
The Eldest of the Abolethic Sovereignty is (arguably) older and more powerful than Ao. And this comes from the novel of an in-house writer. What "facts" would support this claim? And why would Ao allow an alien penetrate his own crystal sphere if the said race poses a great threat to him an his creation?
The easiest solution is that the Eldest is buying into its own arrogance, and only thinks it's more powerful than Ao. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 05:37:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Does this mean we can make my hypothetical module - To Spare Tyr! a reality in 5e? 
"For Duty and Deity 2: God of Justice," actually. (hint hint, WotC!)
quote:
@Erik I really like that, but for some reason I don't want to like it, which annoys me, because I don't know why I feel that way. Make any sense?
Oh yes, I know exactly what you mean.
quote:
The reasoning is sound, though. Perhaps I just like my deities a bit more disconnected from mortals, but I also believe religion (the gods, cosmology, etc) is shaped by mortal belief (dogma), which is a conundrum (for me). Its hard to keep them 'mysterious' when they are tethered to mortals like that.
Well, that's the canon for you: divine power is predicated on worship.
Side note: I once helped came up with a short story concept about a heretical combined church of Lathander and Sune, wherein the deities were said to be "marrying" as their churches merged.
Of course the big reveal was that the "man's-man" high priest of Lathander (a misogynist bastard) preached the concept of "the only perfect love is that of a man," and this was really trying to bring "all those red-haired strumpets/harlots/wimmins" under his dominion. His goal was to destroy the church of Sune, and basically render the goddess a demigod servitor of Lathander.
Basically, he was a complete monster d-bag, and his butt got righteously handed to him by a couple brave priestesses. The Realms are still safe for both genders. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 05:42:20
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Side note:
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And this comes from the novel of an in-house writer.
Please don't read into things like that. Not everything that's listed in a novel is true or meant to be taken literally. Everything is colored by the speaker (who may actively lie to the reader), the context, and the story at hand. What is extremely important/relevant to one story might mean nothing to another story. So regardless of who's writing the novel, take what's written there with a grain of salt.
That's the funniest feedback I get--to this day--about those of my works that star a certain character whose name begins with "T" (and ends with "wilight"), where a reader says "but she said XXXX, and it turns out XXXX is the truth!" Which is funny, because that character is a compulsive liar and serial con artist with serious trust issues. Heh.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 06:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Topic: The Eldest and Ao
The Eldest of the Abolethic Sovereignty is (arguably) older and more powerful than Ao. And this comes from the novel of an in-house writer. What "facts" would support this claim? And why would Ao allow an alien penetrate his own crystal sphere if the said race poses a great threat to him an his creation?
The easiest solution is that the Eldest is buying into its own arrogance, and only thinks it's more powerful than Ao.
Or, since Erik already cleverly made the connection, the power of the Eldest when in the Far Realm, makes the aboleth greater and more powerful than Ao. So, when in Realmspace, the Eldest's power is comparable to Ao. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 06:25:22
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And a big {le sigh} right back at you. I hate to do this, but since it actually touches upon some of my Homebrewed cosmology....
In the beginning, there was roiling chaos, and in that chaos, life emerged. But it was life like nothing we know - it existed before the universe itself did. Strange and chaotic life, taking on all manner of shapes and sizes, some familiar, but most unfathomable. In this cosmic, primal soup was born a vast consciousness, beyond anything previously spawned, and cast-forth all the random thoughts and energies from itself in a massive wave of pure, brilliant energy.
"Let there be light!"
From this first 'divine' power emerged new concepts, as the universe formed. Outside this newly born universe lay the others - the ones who came before. The aberrations, who felt naught but hatred for this new order. From their Far Realms they plotted and planned, sometimes working together with others, but mostly hatching their own, individual, alien schemes to bring about the end of the world. They would stop at nothing to return the cosmos to its pristine, anarchistic state.
Within the bubble of order that is the universe, a set of rules emerge - the physics of the Spheres. Each of the primal concepts was represented by an ancient power - beings beyond even deific comprehension. Below these came the Ordials (builders), and beneath them the Kami - servitor spirits and messengers for the powers of heaven and hell. Everything has its place, and everything within the universe must follow the rules set-down at the beginning of time by the ancient ones.
But the aberrations are native to realms outside of normal space-time, and are not bound by the rules. Even the weakest amongst them can ignore the mandates of Ordials (Over-powers). They are chaos incarnate, and each group follows its own set of rules - they can literally ignore the physics of the spheres when they wish.
And this is how that which should not happen happens, and how that which should not exist exists. They ignore any rules they find inconvenient in their quest to bring entropy to the order. Their universe was the first, and it will be the last.... if they have any say in the matter. The Shadvari were there, watching, as Ao created Realmspace - thats canon. How can he 'evict' that which was in-place before the place even was?
So Ao is supreme within his sphere, as mandated by his boss, and his boss's boss, and so on up the line. This is a fact so long as the laws of the universe are followed. The Eldest need not follow the rules; it is as simple as that. As for who is more powerful? Their power is based on completely different sets of physics. It would be like asking which is more powerful, a computer or a sledgehammer? It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish....
If gods are inscrutable, think how much more inscrutable are those things which predated the gods, and even the universe itself. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2012 06:29:51 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 06:50:47
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The Abolethic Sovereignty is a minor part of the Realms, at best. It certainly doesn't seem to be run by someone as powerful as a *god unto other gods*--if it were, why hasn't it already won everything?
Ergo, the "Eldest" isn't nearly as powerful as Ao, and is probably weaker than Greater Powers of the setting. On its home turf, it might be unstoppable, but in the Realms, it has but a tiny reflection of that vast power.
Also, no offense to anyone who loves aboleths and/or the Far Realm: What's the point of peing powerful *in the Far Realm*? Aren't you pretty much trapped there, being evil/scary/insane all by your evil/scary/insane + lonesome self? I mean, aside from the frequent portals to the mortal world that some pesky band of adventurers always comes along and closes, usually right on your tentacles? Is it a question of bragging rights? I.e., "Yays! We are the most powerful force in the Far Realm! We can be scarier than anything else there!" [squiddly!]
Also, Candlekeep needs a [squiddly!] smiley icon.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 25 Jan 2012 06:52:17 |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 12:18:18
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@ Erik
I have scrolled through the this scroll and imho I have not truly found a satisfactory explanation to why the succubus are tolerated by the "traditional" devils and how they made the crossover lorewise. Unless I truly have to purchase the book authored by Erin to find out why, is there any plausible explanation that can be given lorewise (by you at least =P).
(Not mechanics or conceptwise, I read Erin's article "Sexy Devil Ladies" and see the reasoning behind the changes. All I want is a suitable explanation lorewise. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 13:44:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Tyr + Asmodeus: Ah, but keep in mind that at that point, Tyr was no longer a god, and MUCH more prone to lapses of judgment. Would it really be better for him to FAIL in defending the Upper Planes, rather than compromise his principles?
Picture this: Tyr, devastated by the Helm incident (post forthcoming about this), determines on this course--that it is the only way to die with honor. At the outset, Tyr is doing well against the demons, but it's obviously very difficult. Asmodeus offers him a pact, but he refuses, destroying the devils that sought to seduce him.
Tyr fights on and suffers a great wound--he is getting very tired and starts to fear he will fall before the war is won. Asmodeus sends more devils, but again Tyr refuses the pact.
Tyr fights on, but ultimately cannot defeat the most powerful demon (Orcus, say). As he lies dying, Asmoedus approaches him for a third time in this, his darkest hour, when all hope is lost, and offers him just enough power to get the job done. To the best of his ability, even while wounded and exhausted, Old Grimjaws weighs the options and finally decides that this is his just fate, for erring so badly against Helm. He takes the bargain and drives off the demons. Then and only then does the fine print kick in, and Tyr accepts being bound to Asmodeus as his just punishment for failing in his duty to justice.
I think this is a tragic fall, and I for one rather like such stories.
No no no no no!
Okay look, I feel really strongly about this, so I have to stick to my guns. It's in the category of one of those "cool ideas" that so deeply irritate me with the 4E Realms. Yes, it's an interesting idea. But from my perspective, it #1) misses what Tyr was all about, and #2) goes too far in a negative direction.
Tyr's faith was one not only of justice, and honor, but he would consistently tell his faithful to stand up for what was right and true. Tyr absolutely hated trickery and deceit (see 2E "Faith and Avatars"). As an import god from the Norse, he also was one of those deities who would "fight to the bitter end" for his values and his ethos.
Tyr demonstrated his strength of spirit with the Kezef hound. He even stood up to Ao (and paid for it) during the Time of Troubles. He does not fear true death, and even expects that all the gods may someday fall. Even with all of that, his baseline character is to go down fighting and never ever make a deal with evil. Any other deity near death with no hope, I could believe they might make a deal. But not Tyr, and not with known tricksters and backstabbers like devils and demons. It goes against everything Tyr was, and everything he stood for, during his tenure as a greater deity. Furthermore, it spits in the face of his faithful and what he trained them to believe for hundreds of years!
This whole thing about Tyr "losing faith in himself" and turning over his godhood to Torm didn't make sense in the first place. Tyr is the god who lives with his choices, even when they result in extreme personal loss (his hand, his vision). And I don't see Tyr as lamenting his choices in either of those cases. Yet he somehow "loses faith in himself" and bails on his responsibilities... to a lesser god of duty, no less. Tyr may have been about enforcing law rather rigidly, but he wasn't one to blindly follow duty when true justice could be served. Remember why he was blinded: he challenged Ao on holding the entire pantheon responsible for the actions of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul. De-powering everyone was unfair, and Tyr stood for what he believed was just. By doing so, he paid for it with his eyes. And he lived with it. He owned it as his choice.
That's why the 4E stuff with Tyr doesn't make a lot of sense and completely stands out as "huh?! how the... what the...?" If Tyr did something that ended up killing someone unjustly (Helm), he would try to make amends. He would own up to the wrongdoing, not become overwhelmed with sadness and hand the keys to a lesser deity. Then adding some story about him making a "deal" with devils/demons who have always been known for lies, deceit, and dishonorable actions? No way. This isn't Tyr.
So yes, it's an "interesting idea" and it's a "tragic fall". But it is wrong, wrong, wrong for Tyr. Even from a mythic-literary standpoint, one just doesn't have a god like Tyr come to this kind of a tragic end. It offends the sensibilities. Other gods, maybe. But not Tyr.
/rant. I've said my piece.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 25 Jan 2012 14:05:15 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 15:35:15
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Before we go any further with this Tyr thing.
Can someone please point to the book & page number that mentions Tyr may have been absorbed by Asmodeous? I had trouble locating it last night.
And I'm beginning to think it is a urban legend. I read the novel where he gave his power away to Torm, he goes off to fight the invaders, then Bahamut shows up in the end to kick some major butt. It was never hinted at all in the novel.
So yeah, my research skill check has either failed or passed with flying colors. I would really appreciate it. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 17:16:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
@ Erik
I have scrolled through the this scroll and imho I have not truly found a satisfactory explanation to why the succubus are tolerated by the "traditional" devils and how they made the crossover lorewise. Unless I truly have to purchase the book authored by Erin to find out why, is there any plausible explanation that can be given lorewise (by you at least =P).
(Not mechanics or conceptwise, I read Erin's article "Sexy Devil Ladies" and see the reasoning behind the changes. All I want is a suitable explanation lorewise.
I do not want to step on Erin's toes regarding succubi and devils. She is still unfolding her explanation as time goes on (and you'll get more in Brimstone Angels as well as the sequel, which is due out later this year, as I understand it). So sorry, out of luck!
Let me preface the Tyr discussion by saying that I'm only proposing a POSSIBLE idea, and that it was only in answer to a concept about Asmodeus MAYBE absorbing some of Tyr's essence. We don't know that's what happened--I'm just trying to suggest a series of events in which it might have come to pass. I'm not saying WotC has done this or SHOULD do this--only that I think it is indeed possible.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Tyr's faith was one not only of justice, and honor, but he would consistently tell his faithful to stand up for what was right and true. Tyr absolutely hated trickery and deceit (see 2E "Faith and Avatars"). As an import god from the Norse, he also was one of those deities who would "fight to the bitter end" for his values and his ethos.
So he could "fight to the bitter end" and fail, and the Upper Planes would be consumed with evil. Oh great!
This is one of the things that grates on me about the paladin: the "never, ever, ever compromise" is just insane, not "good." What happens when you have to choose the lesser of two evils, but your moral compass doesn't let you pick any evil, no matter how small? You just don't do anything, and let thousands or millions suffer for the sake of YOUR exclusive moral perfection?
To me, that is not LAWFUL GOOD, but LAWFUL STUPID.
Tyr was tricked into killing Helm, which was an unjust (even EVIL) act. For someone who is as morally perfect and upstanding as you describe, how devastating would that be? And how damaging would it have been to his church? As a cleric of Tyr, you dedicate your life to the concept of following a deity who can do no wrong, and then he utterly fails. Imagine the backlash against his church--way, way more vehement than the anger we in the RW feel over these actions. I think after killing Helm, Tyr's time as a deity was limited, due to his personal feelings and the waning power of his church. Shar's goal was accomplished: she broke the back of Tyr's church. Abdicating to Torm was the only choice to preserve some semblance of the church of justice.
Like a paladin breaking his code of honor, Tyr had proven that he was no longer a perfect steward of justice. He abdicated his throne to Torm because Torm had never wavered from his cause. It was Tyr's time, and like his Norse root deity, Tyr faced it bravely, doing whatever it took to succeed.
quote:
Tyr demonstrated his strength of spirit with the Kezef hound. He even stood up to Ao (and paid for it) during the Time of Troubles. He does not fear true death, and even expects that all the gods may someday fall. Even with all of that, his baseline character is to go down fighting and never ever make a deal with evil. Any other deity near death with no hope, I could believe they might make a deal. But not Tyr, and not with known tricksters and backstabbers like devils and demons. It goes against everything Tyr was, and everything he stood for, during his tenure as a greater deity. Furthermore, it spits in the face of his faithful and what he trained them to believe for hundreds of years!
So did killing Helm, but he did that. He was tricked into it, yes, but he still did it. And Tyr is a god who lives with his choices--he does not deny them or try to undo them. He faces the consequences bravely.
Yes, he doesn't fear true death, but I think after abdicating his divinity, he was ready to do what was necessary to succeed. Against the demons, he knew he was going to die, but he could either do so in such a way that he saved the Upper Planes, or in such a way that he failed and demons ran rampant over everything he'd spent his whole existence protecting.
That seems like an easy choice for a god of good.
Voluntarily failing because of the sake of your principles is NOT a good act--everyone who is truly of good-alignment knows that sacrifice is sometimes necessary to achieve the greater good.
quote:
This whole thing about Tyr "losing faith in himself" and turning over his godhood to Torm didn't make sense in the first place. Tyr is the god who lives with his choices, even when they result in extreme personal loss (his hand, his vision). And I don't see Tyr as lamenting his choices in either of those cases. Yet he somehow "loses faith in himself" and bails on his responsibilities... to a lesser god of duty, no less. Tyr may have been about enforcing law rather rigidly, but he wasn't one to blindly follow duty when true justice could be served.
So it would be better for him to be a flawed steward of justice? Once he had opened himself to making mistakes, could he ever truly be trustworthy again?
The death of Helm was not a personal loss--if Tyr had injured himself, that he could have dealt with. Instead, he murdered a friend, and over what? Nothing.
Gods don't make mistakes--people do. And the instant Tyr made that choice, his loss of godhood was set. He ceased to be capable of presiding over justice. He left before he had a chance to become a tyrant, rather than a benevolent king.
quote:
That's why the 4E stuff with Tyr doesn't make a lot of sense and completely stands out as "huh?! how the... what the...?" If Tyr did something that ended up killing someone unjustly (Helm), he would try to make amends. He would own up to the wrongdoing, not become overwhelmed with sadness and hand the keys to a lesser deity. Then adding some story about him making a "deal" with devils/demons who have always been known for lies, deceit, and dishonorable actions? No way. This isn't Tyr.
This *was* Tyr making amends, sacrificing himself and his principles for the greater good. I see this as EXACTLY what Tyr would and should do in this situation.
As for whether he dealt with Asmoedus (a fellow lawful deity, if not a good one), who can say for sure? Maybe he was tricked into it, maybe Asmodeus forcibly captured him rather than talked him into signing on the bloody dotted line. Lots of things could have been the case.
quote:
So yes, it's an "interesting idea" and it's a "tragic fall". But it is wrong, wrong, wrong for Tyr. Even from a mythic-literary standpoint, one just doesn't have a god like Tyr come to this kind of a tragic end. It offends the sensibilities. Other gods, maybe. But not Tyr.
Which is exactly what Tyr himself thought, as well as his worshippers. Making such a crippling mistake was not something he thought he could ever do, but he did. We don't always get to choose the paths laid out before us.
Also, you're such an idealist, Therise. It's refreshing.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4454 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 17:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Before we go any further with this Tyr thing.
Can someone please point to the book & page number that mentions Tyr may have been absorbed by Asmodeous? I had trouble locating it last night.
And I'm beginning to think it is a urban legend. I read the novel where he gave his power away to Torm, he goes off to fight the invaders, then Bahamut shows up in the end to kick some major butt. It was never hinted at all in the novel.
So yeah, my research skill check has either failed or passed with flying colors. I would really appreciate it.
I don't think it was every mentioned in any book. All we "officially" know is that Tyr went into the lower planes to kill as many demons as possible. Going out in a blaze of glory and all that. I had mentioned a while back that, in my games, Tyr caught up with Asmodeus and was imprisoned, for which Asmodeus has been syphoning off his power. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 17:55:44
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If it were me, I would do something with Tyranthraxus.
Theres a very good way of connecting him to fiends in the past. I remember we discussed some of the possibilities once, either here or over at WotC.
And once again, I think the simplest solutions are best - why not just say there was a schism amongst the succubi/erynies once, long ago, and this has resolved itself? CANONICALLY, we know that 'devil' is a JOB, not a race. Batezu is the race; look at Grazzt's history (amongst others) - both 'devil' and 'demon' are appelations applied to creatures that are in the camps of Tanarri and Batezu. The same race can have members in both camps. It is that simple - why over-complicate things? Use the lore to fix the lore.
And I agree with you 100% about aberrations, Erik. I was just doing the "there are rules, and there are those who can break the rules" excuse for any odd lore (which is easy to do in the case of Far Realms denizens). Also, that every 'sphere' (using the term VERY broadly, to describe everything from demi-planes, to dimensions & planes, to Realms both divine and far, and even the universe itself) has a 'supreme being', and that these beings are of all different levels of power, and are also of a nature where their power can't even be evaluated against each other because completely different rules of physics are involved. Within their own, personal Realms they are supreme, but outside of them, all bets are off. Only a being occupying a 'tier above' can violate the rules (because its domain encompasses the others), or if someone has a piece of the ruling being of the sphere (which is what I think happened in the case of Mystra's fall), OR existed before the rules were put in place.
Ergo, if you want to think this Eldest thingy can whup Ao's butt, then you are welcome to do so. If you want to think that Ao would pwn the eldest, you are also welcome to do so. And if you'd just prefer to ignore all of them (because they will never really impact your game), then you are not only welcome to, but also wise to do so (why even open that can of worms?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2012 18:13:31 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 18:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
<chop>
<much relevant, and most excellent, debate trimmed for economy of post size> ...
quote:
So yes, it's an "interesting idea" and it's a "tragic fall". But it is wrong, wrong, wrong for Tyr. Even from a mythic-literary standpoint, one just doesn't have a god like Tyr come to this kind of a tragic end. It offends the sensibilities. Other gods, maybe. But not Tyr.
Which is exactly what Tyr himself thought, as well as his worshippers. Making such a crippling mistake was not something he thought he could ever do, but he did. We don't always get to choose the paths laid out before us.
Also, you're such an idealist, Therise. It's refreshing.
Cheers
You know, Erik, you and Therise have just caused the fastest Realmsian flip-flop on record, at least in my experience. (RW political references strenuously avoided, much to the dismay of my sense of humour.)
I thought Erik's original explanation was very well done. And then I LOVED Therise's rebuttal. And then Erik made it all make perfect sense again.
And this, folks, I think is at the heart of the problem we're facing. When two such different perspectives on an event can explain the same "WTF" so exceedingly well, why should we have to pick a single version for canon? Especially where the gods are concerned, as Erik has already pointed out. If anything, this has pushed me further toward the "throw the idea of a single canon version out the window entirely" camp, and yet part of me also thinks this would be disastrous for the Realms as a published setting, particularly if we'll be seeing more than half a dozen game products for FR in the new edition. Mind you, we weren't even expecting to get half a dozen in 4E.
I had a good chunk written here about using the GHotR as a "core" to provide alternate timelines branching from, if major 3E-era (only) events don't unfold as described in existing canon, but (to use a metaphor I've used elsewhere in CK recently) putting Schroedinger's cat back into the box is a whole lot trickier than letting it out. For this reason, I'm stepping back from this until we have a better idea of what's in the upcoming "Elminster's Forgotten Realms" book in October. (2012 Q4 is going to be *busy*... new FR sourcebook from Ed, "The Hobbit" movie, the end of the world...  ) |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 25 Jan 2012 18:33:00 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 18:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Before we go any further with this Tyr thing.
Can someone please point to the book & page number that mentions Tyr may have been absorbed by Asmodeous? I had trouble locating it last night.
And I'm beginning to think it is a urban legend. I read the novel where he gave his power away to Torm, he goes off to fight the invaders, then Bahamut shows up in the end to kick some major butt. It was never hinted at all in the novel.
So yeah, my research skill check has either failed or passed with flying colors. I would really appreciate it.
I don't think it was every mentioned in any book. All we "officially" know is that Tyr went into the lower planes to kill as many demons as possible. Going out in a blaze of glory and all that. I had mentioned a while back that, in my games, Tyr caught up with Asmodeus and was imprisoned, for which Asmodeus has been syphoning off his power.
Shhhh, I need an excuse to reread the series. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 18:52:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
So he could "fight to the bitter end" and fail, and the Upper Planes would be consumed with evil. Oh great!
I'm not going to mince words here. The outcome in the Realms was decided upon by the designers. It's inserted, created, based on their preferences. And they preferred a darker, turn-everything-into-gray-morality view. Punch the good gods in the junk and let evil rise ascendant.
Compare this with the actual story of the Ragnarok. Bear with me, because I'm illustrating what drove me away from the 4E Realms, not insisting that "it should've been like the Ragnarok." In the Twilight of the Gods, they know their deaths are imminent, and all of Muspelheim, the Underworld of Hel, and the Jotnar are all arrayed against them. They choose to fight, standing against the prophecy of their doom. That's heroic, it's sticking with your morals until the end. The outcome? By doing so, it wasn't the "End" with a capital E for everything. Very few of the goddesses died in the Ragnarok, and all of the children of the gods survive. Balder has enough power to return from the dead and lead. So in that situation, it was heroic in the extreme, because they gave their lives for their wives, sisters, and children.
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This is one of the things that grates on me about the paladin: the "never, ever, ever compromise" is just insane, not "good." What happens when you have to choose the lesser of two evils, but your moral compass doesn't let you pick any evil, no matter how small? You just don't do anything, and let thousands or millions suffer for the sake of YOUR exclusive moral perfection?
It's not stupid. It's a demonstration of character. The ultimate one, really, because it shows that life isn't worth living if you choose evil or discard your morals.
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Tyr was tricked into killing Helm,...
Not in my Realms. Ever. And this kind of "it's kewl, let's do it cuz it's dark and tragic" new lore is a major reason why I dumped the Shattered Realms.
quote:
Gods don't make mistakes...
Oh, but they do. In the Realms, in the old Greek myths, and certainly in the old Norse myths. Holding firm to one's core beliefs in the face of actual death shows honor, character, and true spirit. The gods make mistakes just like people do... and good gods are there, in myths, to remind people about what's right, not just what's easy.
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Also, you're such an idealist, Therise. It's refreshing.
But also apparently not worth listening to. 
I see the writing on the wall, I really do. It's fine. I just hope the new Realms in 5E retain enough customers to stay afloat.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 25 Jan 2012 18:57:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 18:57:33
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Also, Tyr (THE Tyr) is destined to be killed by Garm, the Hound of Hel. Interesting, no? Garm is not Fenris - if anything, Garm should be Cerberus, and Fenris should be Kezef (in the D&D cosmology).
And here's another little gem (from the Wiki) just for Therise to chew upon -
"In Lokasenna, Tyr is taunted with cuckoldry by Loki, maybe another hint that he had a consort or wife at one time."
Obviously, the Tyr is not above petty anger, jealousy, and even love. And what if Loki and Asmodeus were one and the same? His names are legion.
Not picking a fight with anyone here - just establishing that sometimes what you believe to be true isn't accurate, because all the facts haven't been presented. The Norse Tyr sounds a lot more 'human' (fallible) then the Realms' idealized version.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2012 19:14:43 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 19:01:49
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quote:
But also apparently not worth listening to.
I see the writing on the wall, I really do. It's fine. I just hope the new Realms in 5E retain enough customers to stay afloat.
Now hold on there Therise. This is a contest that allows us to exercise our grey matter to produce some non-canonical Realmslore.
You are worth listening to IMHO but it is up to the judges to make the decision on the winner.
And once again there is no guarantee on anything in this thread becoming 'canon' except for what we want to use in our home games. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 19:13:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Gods don't make mistakes...
Oh, but they do. In the Realms, in the old Greek myths, and certainly in the old Norse myths.
Doesn't that just support my point? You yourself admit that gods make mistakes--why is Tyr suddenly immune to this failing of his fellow gods?
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Holding firm to one's core beliefs in the face of actual death shows honor, character, and true spirit. The gods make mistakes just like people do... and good gods are there, in myths, to remind people about what's right, not just what's easy.
That was indeed well said.
(I do still think there is a lot to discuss about the moral implications of refusing to do something evil in order to save thousands from a greater evil, but that's beyond the scope of this thread. Literature itself still hasn't fully dealt with the issue, and probably never quite will. It's one of those questions that will continue on long after you and I are gone.)
So far, I've been discussing a hypothetical here (because there was a question raised), but let me go with my personal take: My 4e Realms don't have Tyr signing up with Asmodeus. In my Realms, he was tricked into killing Helm, and felt that the only honorable path was to redeem himself by dying for the sake of the multiverse. Torm took his place, much like the apprentice taking the mantle of the master, and Tyr went off to show courage and honor in the face of darkness. There was indeed a "temptation of Tyr" that went on, where Asmodeus offered him enough power to accomplish his aims and survive the battle, but he refused. And in refusing, he did indeed perish, but his example rallied the troops to defeat the demons. And so did Tyr die a hero.
(Which, in point of fact, is exactly how the Eye of Justice--a major aspect of my Shadowbane series--remembers him, and they still venerate him for that pyhrric victory.)
Of course Tyr's detractors put it about that he signed with Asmodeus, and no doubt it soured some people on faith in the very concept of Justice. But Torm learned well at his master's feet, and the cause of righteousness carries on all the stronger in his church.
So there. You get TWO answers for the price of one: (1) Tyr faced down temptation and saw it through to the bitter end, dying with honor, or (2) Tyr gave into temptation and is trapped in Asmodeus's clutches. Either way lines up the canon, though I (and I suspect Therise as well) would prefer #1.
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quote:
Also, you're such an idealist, Therise. It's refreshing.
But also apparently not worth listening to.
Woah, woah, did you ever read that wrong. If anything, your points have helped me formalize my own opinion about this. See above. You are DEFINITELY worth listening to. Everyone on these boards is worth listening to.
PLEASE give yourself a little more credit. At least as much as I do, anyway--which is rather a lot.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 19:20:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, Tyr (THE Tyr) is destined to be killed by Garm, the Hound of Hel. Interesting, no? Garm is not Fenris - if anything, Garm should be Cerberus, and Fenris should be Kezef (in the D&D cosmology).
Perhaps, but in old Norse myth Fenris is sometimes conflated with Garm. Whatever the case, Garm and Tyr kill each other.
quote:
And here's another little gem (from the Wiki) just for Therise to chew upon -
"In Lokasenna, Tyr is taunted with cuckoldry by Loki, maybe another hint that he had a consort or wife at one time."
Loki taunts everyone, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Remember, Loki is a hypocrite: he accuses the other gods of all sorts of things, even dressing as women. Sometimes it's true. But Loki himself became female in order to do certain things.
If anything, Loki is more like Cyric, the bumbling fool with too much power for his own good.
quote:
Obviously, the Tyr is not above petty anger, jealousy, and even love. And what if Loki and Asmodeus were one and the same? His names are legion.
Not picking a fight with anyone here - just establishing that sometimes what you believe to be true isn't accurate, because all the facts haven't been presented. The Norse Tyr sounds a lot more 'human' (fallible) then the Realms' idealized version.
When is Tyr ever shown in the Realms as idealized or perfect? He's maimed and blinded.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 19:41:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Gods don't make mistakes...
Oh, but they do. In the Realms, in the old Greek myths, and certainly in the old Norse myths.
Doesn't that just support my point? You yourself admit that gods make mistakes--why is Tyr suddenly immune to this failing of his fellow gods?
The thing is, why does it always have to end with darkly dark, icky tragedy that feels repulsive? Yes, I'm something of an idealist, at least when I look at this kind of stuff.
But if we have to keep Helm's death, it could serve better as a moral lesson rather than a reason for Tyr to give up. Tyr makes the mistake of killing his friend, fine. But Tyr as I see him wouldn't question everything he stood for, he would own up to the mistake and make reparations. How much better would it have been if Tyr said, "you know, it is possible for even the most noble of us to fail, to bend to our baser desires for things like revenge... or striking out in anger, as I did against noble Helm. My friend is lost, and my code compels me to make reparations. I will therefore assume Helm's duties, in his name. As for my own people, we must use this as a time to reflect on how mortals - and even the gods- can fail. Often. But that is no reason to then abandon who we are, what we stand for in life. Rather, it compels us even more urgently to be aware of how we pursue justice and not run ramshod over others in our pursuit of that justice. It isn't the failure we must dwell on, it is what we do with failure, and how we respond to our own failings in life. In Helm's name, we therefore must become the Guardians of the Spirit as well as temporal justice." And then have Tyr regain his eyesight, because it represents the ideal that justice is not blind.
I know, this is just a contest for fun. But is it, really? WotC could be watching, some of this stuff could become lore. I don't want new lore just to be full of kewlness, I want it to do what myth and legend are supposed to do.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Also, you're such an idealist, Therise. It's refreshing.
But also apparently not worth listening to.
Woah, woah, did you ever read that wrong. If anything, your points have helped me formalize my own opinion about this. See above. You are DEFINITELY worth listening to. Everyone on these boards is worth listening to.
PLEASE give yourself a little more credit. At least as much as I do, anyway--which is rather a lot.
Sorry, it's hard not to feel that way. I wouldn't feel passionately about this stuff if I didn't love the earlier Realms. *sigh*
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 25 Jan 2012 19:43:57 |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 20:10:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Lirdolin: Yes, I'm getting to your most excellent questions. It's a busy week, doing my final edits on EYE OF JUSTICE, including characters based on participants in this scroll, etc., etc.
Based on participants? in this scroll? Gulp...just in case... can I opt for 'badly hurt, but probably well soon' and not 'dead and eviscarated' at the end of it?
Lirdolin |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 20:16:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not picking a fight with anyone here - just establishing that sometimes what you believe to be true isn't accurate, because all the facts haven't been presented. The Norse Tyr sounds a lot more 'human' (fallible) then the Realms' idealized version.
When is Tyr ever shown in the Realms as idealized or perfect? He's maimed and blinded.
Hmmmm...
I hadn't even thought about his physical disabilities, I was looking at him like a person.
'Idealized' as in "Tyr the good and just".
I was simply pointing out that the Norse lore doesn't necessarily invalidate the D&D lore; if anything, its easy to twist things to support it. Tyr 'dies at the gates of hel(l)', and is taunted (made to behave in an irrational manner) by some divine, evil power. Sounds like both Tyrs to me.
And I am not supporting the silly 'love triangle' thing we got hitched to at the tail-end of 3e. I am merely trying to conform to the purposes of this thread, which is to make everything work (weather we think the particular piece of canon lore is 'good' or not).
For instance, I do not like aberrations (I don't use them when I game), BUT I know they are part of D&D and FR, so if I am asked "how would you make this work?", I will answer, regardless of how I personally feel. I guess what I am trying to say is that we don't have to like what we are contributing - we just have to blend the rough edges seamlessly (like plastic surgeons - the good ones can hide the scars).
I think we should all be way past the "I don't like it!" point (but I guess not). It is what it is - lets fix it... together.
I suppose it doesn't help that I never really gave a damn about Tyr (or Torm, or Helm), which I guess you do, so I apologize for that. I probably feel about Eilistraee how you do about Tyr (and would be just as against anything that made her look 'stupid'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2012 21:42:32 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 21:19:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
But if we have to keep Helm's death, it could serve better as a moral lesson rather than a reason for Tyr to give up. Tyr makes the mistake of killing his friend, fine. But Tyr as I see him wouldn't question everything he stood for, he would own up to the mistake and make reparations. How much better would it have been if Tyr said, "you know, it is possible for even the most noble of us to fail, to bend to our baser desires for things like revenge... or striking out in anger, as I did against noble Helm. My friend is lost, and my code compels me to make reparations. I will therefore assume Helm's duties, in his name. As for my own people, we must use this as a time to reflect on how mortals - and even the gods- can fail. Often. But that is no reason to then abandon who we are, what we stand for in life. Rather, it compels us even more urgently to be aware of how we pursue justice and not run ramshod over others in our pursuit of that justice. It isn't the failure we must dwell on, it is what we do with failure, and how we respond to our own failings in life. In Helm's name, we therefore must become the Guardians of the Spirit as well as temporal justice."
Which is pretty much EXACTLY what the Eye of Justice believes happened--not as publically, but in spirit. (Seriously--read my Shadowbane series.
I wonder if I'm just thinking of Tyr in terms of a politician--or more accurately, a high justice official in whom the gods and people of the Realms placed their trust. I wonder if Tyr could really just smile and say "everything's cool--I'll just take Helm's place now" and it would be all right. Ignoring his own internal psychological pressure, would the people of the Realms really stand for that? I don't know.
Regardless, IMO, my supposition about Tyr being crushed by his failure and marching off to war to redeem himself isn't a tragedy. He determined that this was the way to honor Helm's sacrifice--in GUARDING against these foes that the Ever-Watcher would have kept out of the heavens, but with his death was unable to. He bequeathed his power and portfolio in trust to Torm, in case he didn't come back to claim it. (A part of him knew that he wasn't.) And so he charged valiantly into the battle, and through his efforts, the Heavens were saved. He perished in the fighting, and his sacrifice is honored to this day.
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And then have Tyr regain his eyesight, because it represents the ideal that justice is not blind.
Hmm, that depends on how you look at it. Why would justice not being blind be a GOOD thing? The concept of justice being blind is that it's fair and just to all, regardless of race, gender, class, or background. Maybe that Justice doesn't HAVE to be blind in order to be justice?
quote:
I know, this is just a contest for fun. But is it, really? WotC could be watching, some of this stuff could become lore. I don't want new lore just to be full of kewlness, I want it to do what myth and legend are supposed to do.
Well, I have no alterior motive. I'm not a plant from WotC or licensed to solicit ideas. I'm just doing my part to get the conversation going.
quote:
quote:
PLEASE give yourself a little more credit. At least as much as I do, anyway--which is rather a lot.
Sorry, it's hard not to feel that way. I wouldn't feel passionately about this stuff if I didn't love the earlier Realms. *sigh*
Believe me, I feel the same way sometimes. This is my effort to push past it, bring everyone together, and be part of something greater.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 25 Jan 2012 21:19:48 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 21:26:55
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Also:
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
Based on participants? in this scroll? Gulp...just in case... can I opt for 'badly hurt, but probably well soon' and not 'dead and eviscarated' at the end of it?
Mwahahahahaha! |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 21:29:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For instance, I do not like aberrations (I don't use them when I game), BUT I know they are part of D&D and FR, so if I am asked "how would you make this work?", I will answer, regardless of how I personally feel.
That's pretty much how I feel.
I also don't like aberrations either--partly because one of my DMs is going out of his way to demonstrate how scary/gross/horrifying they can be. Too much to discuss here, but catch me at a GenCon with a couple drinks and I'll tell you the story. [shudder]
quote:
I think we should all be way past the "I don't like it!" point (but I guess not). It is what it is - lets fix it... together.
That's MY concept, anyway.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 21:45:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Mwahahahahaha!
Oh, come on, being dead just sucks, been there, done that. And resurrections just cost alot of money, that a poor half-drow sorceress has to earn first.
I know what I'm talking about, you wouldn't believe what I had to do to pay of my latest 'back from the dead' to do the jump from 3e to 4e Realms...but being 'drop dead sexy' is better then being just dead
Lirdolin |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 21:57:21
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Tyr did not fail the people of Toril. He didn't even fail Helm or Torm.
Tyr failed himself.
A deity IS their portfolio - they don't just represent it, they see everything through it like a filter (see Mystra's discovery in Prince of Lies).
When Tyr looks upon anything, he judges it, because that is what he is. He cannot help it. When he looked inward, he saw that he 'was wanting'. He then choose his atonement - to save the Heavens themselves. Only by accomplishing that could he forgive himself, and reclaim his divinity. he felt it had to earn it, all over again. How can the god of justice ask any less of himself then he would of someone else? Justice must be blind - he cannot be more lenient with himself. He was just one more person to be served justice.
His sacrifice - because of his failings - makes his nobility all the more believable. How can you idealize someone who doesn't hold themselves to their own high standards? I think Erik is right on-track there. He is acting precisely the way a god of justice should behave.
IMHO, of course. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2012 21:58:57 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 22:14:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
Oh, come on, being dead just sucks, been there, done that. And resurrections just cost alot of money, that a poor half-drow sorceress has to earn first.
I know what I'm talking about, you wouldn't believe what I had to do to pay of my latest 'back from the dead' to do the jump from 3e to 4e Realms...but being 'drop dead sexy' is better then being just dead
So I should put down "vampire" as your request, then?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 22:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[quote]Originally posted by Lirdolin
So I should put down "vampire" as your request, then?
Cheers
Hm, 'Sexy vampiric half-drow sorceress'...I could (un-)live with that... better than being dead and eviscerated.
(Unless you just imported sparkling vampires to the realms...although...that again would give me the chance to throw a full battery of magic missles at Edward... Do you think I could petion for Waterdeep-Citizenship for such an act of heroism although being undead?)
Starts making arrangements for fashioning her rose-wood coffin and seeking a cure for vampirism |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 00:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
"In Lokasenna, Tyr is taunted with cuckoldry by Loki, maybe another hint that he had a consort or wife at one time."
Loki taunts everyone, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Remember, Loki is a hypocrite: he accuses the other gods of all sorts of things, even dressing as women. Sometimes it's true. But Loki himself became female in order to do certain things.
If anything, Loki is more like Cyric, the bumbling fool with too much power for his own good.
Sorry Therise, I find your comparisons with Loki to Cyric highly inaccurate. Cyric was a bumbling fool, a bad mad God.
Loki was not Cyric in myth and legend. He wasn't incompetent. He was cunning, witty and liked to live dangerously. If anything he was the provocateur extraordinaire. He even cuckolded Tyr, and shamed the Gods before Thor threatened to bring the smack down on him. Even so Loki and Thor went on several adventures together. I doubt you'd find any CG God willing to go on a quest with Cyric the mad. More respect for Loki please, being compared to Cyric is an insult. Cyric was, if anything, unsubtle. The same could not be said for Loki |
Edited by - Aes Tryl on 26 Jan 2012 00:38:09 |
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