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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 02:08:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
The Sage
I've always assumed this would likely be the result of Elminster having some mastery of the Temporal Prime via a cunningly deliberate spellcrafting.
If Realmspace and Earth are indeed located in "Alternate Primes" (by whatever name) then links between the two worlds would involve planar transit. Time does not flow evenly across the planes, there are portals to pasts and to futures, the "present" moves forward at different rates, and there is often "slippage" which gains or loses time when moving across such boundaries. The Realms and Krynn have various sorts of temporal guardians, but our world apparently does not.
We've been told previously that the portals leading to Earth lead to the D&D version of Earth, supposedly, so the question of temporal relationships between Earth and Toril probably isn't as clear.
Regardless, the fact that these portals can, and will, access alternate points in Earth's history, suggests some level of temporal manipulation on the part of the traveller.
Or, alternatively, the simplest explanation could be that the portals themselves form random connections between different time periods and places -- purely on the whim of some heretofore incomprehensible arcane [or sentient portal] effect.
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Edited by - The Sage on 24 Jan 2012 02:11:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 03:29:01
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So if rare Dwarves could cast magic pre-3e (and you admit that the possibility of such did exist), and most of these were banished, outcast, put to death, etc...
And after the ToT, due to the higher birth rate, MORE of these anomalies were born, and for some reason (some deity sanction that happened off-stage) Dwarves began to 'allow' these strange dwarves to exist, and in some cases even come to accept them in certain communities, that by the time 3e era rolled around they were still rare but not unheard of...
You can't understand how any of that is possible, and refuse to accept any sort of backward-engineered lore to fix the glitch?
Anyhow, I realize that my Dwarven post wasn't entirely accurate - I read it quickly and responded to what I thought it said (the Nether scrolls thing). Either way it still works precisely the way I said it could, so I didn't get what point you were trying to make (aside from simply refusing to accept any sort explanation at all). You saying "we don't have to assume anything' is the same as saying 'any explanation not printed in an official source is not viable', which is at cross-purposes with the point of the thread. In the end, all we have is a relatively small group of dwarves who couldn't see some scrolls (something a simple illusion could have done), and the word of one high priest as to the reason for that.
Alternate explanation: The scrolls were not created by 'the gods', they were created by at least three of the Creator Races. In my HB lore, the Dwarves were one of the primal races created by the primordials (not deities), and exist outside of a certain set of rules that pertain to mortals. Perhaps the scrolls - being penned by the first of the mortal races (the Creators) - had some enchantment built-in to deny certain beings from seeing them, and because of their origins the dwarves fell into this category. It may have had nothing to do with dwarves not being able to cast magic, or some mandate by their gods. Or it could just be that the Sarrukh didn't like dwarves (which actually makes some sense when I apply some of my other HB lore - that the Creator Races each represent one of the elements).
Succubi:
During the first Godwar, sides were not so simple as 'good' and 'evil'. It was during this time - a different time - that the Peithoi (spirits of desire: seduction and temptation) became split - the ones that sided with chaos embraced physical temptation, and were know as the Succubi. They fought alongside the corrupted elementals (Tanar'ri) and called them kin. The ones that sided with law battled alongside their brethren, the Tezu (spirits of law). When the war was over, the Tezu themselves then split, over the brutal means used by some to win. The ones that fought for victory at any cost were named Ba'Tezu (dark Tezu), and it is with these that the Plietho of planned seduction - the Eirynes - sided. The Tezu that fought with honor eventually became known as the Celestials, and turned forevermore from their dark brethren.
This is forever the paradox of those beings who fight for good - never can they agree on the methods employed, and always do they split and split again into smaller groups. The dark beings - the Fiends - are often too busy killing each other to even form groups. So the First war went from two sides to three, and then to the many factions that make up the heavens and hells, and all that lies between.
And from outside the universe Cthon laughs - the anarchy it fosters leads to the entropy it craves.
So you see, succubi (and incubi) are not really eirynes (a name they took from their three queens), and eirynes are not really succubi - they (along with others) were a part of other groups, which all split along the lines of law & chaos, god & evil. With the return of the elemental chaos, the succubi felt the universe had plunged too far from their primal core being, and to help right the balance they returned to the side of their 'sisters', past differences forgiven. The apelations mortals enjoy applying to the various planer groups are nothing more then noise - things change all the time and nothing is set in stone. Planer beings communicate on many levels, and so are aware of deeper truths. Words are just words.
The one core truth of multiverse is that there is no 'one truth'. The truth changes all the time, as tenuous as the dreams of long-dead gods. The universe alters itself to fit perception, and reality is as permanent as the next stray thought.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2012 03:59:37 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 03:40:44
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There was a higher birth rate in dwarves after ToT? I thought the opposite, as suggested in 2E FR11 Dwarves Deep. This book actually introduced the notion of half-dwarves; human-dwarf halfbloods who are in essence exactly the same as pureblood dwarves but stand a few inches taller. The interesting thing is that half-dwarves can mate with dwarves or half-dwarves, producing dwarves ... or with humans, in which case the offspring is another half-dwarf. So, in as little as two generations, the human blood can be bred out - FR11 describes this as the noblest sacrifice on the part of human parents of half-dwarves, an effort to preserve the gradually diminishing numbers of the dying dwarf race.
But this brings another possibility. Half-dwarves are probably nothing new, if they existed post-ToT then they surely existed in past ages. Might it be possible that many "pureblooded" dwarves actually have one or more human parents in their ancestry? More to the point: could this invisible human heritage allow them to become arcane casters? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Jan 2012 03:42:49 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 03:48:12
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quote:
Markustay
The one core truth of multiverse is that there is no 'one truth'. The truth changes all the time, as tenuous as the dreams of long-dead gods. The universe alters itself to fit perception, and reality is as permanent as the next stray thought.
Philosophers and physicists have long argued the possibility of the sort of self-sophistic universe you describe, Markus.
But I think - philosophical, theological, mystical, and scientific details about the cosmos put aside - the D&D universe is occupied by the D&D game. Most DMs, players, and authors prefer hard rules over spongy esoterica. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 04:11:04
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I actually apply many of my RW beliefs (borrowed from just about everything in a near-incomprehensible amalgam of philosophy, religion, folklore, and paranormal) to the D&D universe - its a pretty good fit.
And yes, there was this little thing called the 'Thunder Blessing', which stopped the dwarves from being a race in decline (just as the cancellation of the Elven withdrawal did for the Elves).
Now the gnomes are the only ones on the decline, but thats because they all moved home to the Feywild. 
On the subject of Earth & Toril:
Ed (and others) has made it clear that the Earth of the D&D game - the one where Elminster steals Ed's pizza and hotdogs - is NOT our Earth, in much the same way that the Earths of Marvel and DC comics are not our Earths. In fact, for all we know, the other Earth-Toril portals may even go to other alternate Earths (in which case, the Yellowstone one may open to our Earth... which actually fixes something else... hmmmm).
Not that I have ever use the connection in my FR games (I did in GH), I assume that the Earth of D&D is the same one from the Gothic Earth Gazetteer. In the greater scheme of things (the Planescape/Great Wheel cosmology), it makes more sense that way - I prefer to think that magic hasn't 'all gone away', but rather remains hidden from modern senses (and sensibilities). I also apply the world-model of the Chronicles of Amber series - (D&D) Earth is indeed inside a vast crystal sphere (perhaps even bigger then Realmspace). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2012 04:32:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36833 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 04:22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So if rare Dwarves could cast magic pre-3e (and you admit that the possibility of such did exist), and most of these were banished, outcast, put to death, etc...
And after the ToT, due to the higher birth rate, MORE of these anomalies were born, and for some reason (some deity sanction that happened off-stage) Dwarves began to 'allow' these strange dwarves to exist, and in some cases even come to accept them in certain communities, that by the time 3e era rolled around they were still rare but not unheard of...
That's a huge number of anomalies, for dwarven mages to suddenly become unremarkable. If that's the case, then it means that as their race was diminishing, the dwarves were further culling their own numbers, and doing it on a large scale.
Nope, still simpler to keep all prior lore intact and assume it's due to the Thunder Blessing.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You can't understand how any of that is possible, and refuse to accept any sort of backward-engineered lore to fix the glitch?
I accept the Thunder Blessing as a fix. How is that not backward engineered?
What I don't accept as a fix is something that says "yeah, that prior lore? Forget it, it was wrong."
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, I realize that my Dwarven post wasn't entirely accurate - I read it quickly and responded to what I thought it said (the Nether scrolls thing). Either way it still works precisely the way I said it could, so I didn't get what point you were trying to make (aside from simply refusing to accept any sort explanation at all). You saying "we don't have to assume anything' is the same as saying 'any explanation not printed in an official source is not viable', which is at cross-purposes with the point of the thread. In the end, all we have is a relatively small group of dwarves who couldn't see some scrolls (something a simple illusion could have done), and the word of one high priest as to the reason for that.
That is not what I meant. What I meant was we don't have to assume that something that violates prior lore and prior rules was wrong. We don't have to assume that something that does not fit the known facts is correct.
An anomaly here and there does not prove prior lore was wrong. If it did, we'd have thousands of good drow in canon because we know of two of them, or bunches of neutrally-aligned red dragons because there's one in a sourcebook.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Alternate explanation: The scrolls were not created by 'the gods', they were created by at least three of the Creator Races. In my HB lore, the Dwarves were one of the primal races created by the primordials (not deities), and exist outside of a certain set of rules that pertain to mortals. Perhaps the scrolls - being penned by the first of the mortal races (the Creators) - had some enchantment built-in to deny certain beings from seeing them, and because of their origins the dwarves fell into this category. It may have had nothing to do with dwarves not being able to cast magic, or some mandate by their gods. Or it could just be that the Sarrukh didn't like dwarves (which actually makes some sense when I apply some of my other HB lore - that the Creator Races each represent one of the elements).
Or we could go with the only canon we actually have, that the dwarven deities said "no."
Look, I'm happy to assume grey areas, and that canon does not encompass all that is. But at the same time, I'm not willing to chuck aside canon without very good reason. We have lore that says dwarves could not be wizards, and that magical items were unreliable in dwarven hands. We have lore that says they could not see the Scrolls. And we have lore that says that shortly before we suddenly started seeing dwarven wizards all over the place, the dwarven race was blessed by their gods.
Given all that, I don't see any reason to assume that there secretly were dwarven mages all over, or that it was some plot by other races to keep dwarves down. The simplest explanation, and the one that fits all known canon, is that dwarves as a race could not use arcane magic until they were gifted that ability in the Thunder Blessing. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 04:52:54
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Well, we can agree to disagree then. The Thunder Blessing can be indirectly given credit for it, but since we have Thunder Blessing lore, and it makes no mention of it (as of yet), then either they don't want it to be that way, or they just don't care enough to give an explanation. I will say that I agree that your view of that lore is what the author intended, but that doesn't mean that it must be that way now, in hindsight. It was written before the new 3e rules, so a reinterpretation is possible.
And you are making a very large assumption of your own - where does it say dwarven wizards are common place? The usual D&D game assumption is that "the heroes are special". What if EVERY dwarven Wizard was a PC? how many would there be then?
The 3e rules also allowed us to create Drow Rangers of Mielikki - but how many of those did we have?
Now, I could be wrong here (without my sources I can't ever look up anything anymore, and I have been annoying wrong a lot lately). So let me put it this way - does it say anywhere that dwarven wizards are commonplace? I had always assumed the opposite - they were exceptions (and I have dim recollection of Ed addressing this at some point, but once again, I could be wrong). Perhaps Sage remembers something along those lines?
I do know the 3e rules present them as being fairly common (although not stated as such AFAIK), but core rules are not FR lore. The core rules also have Warforged in them these days, but that doesn't mean FR has them. I think we need FR-specific lore regarding this. The numbers - extremely rare and almost unheard of - may have remained constant between editions, and the only increase would have been due to the increase in dwarven birthrate (once again, because of the Thunder Blessing).
EDIT: And just so you know, IMG Dwarves don't cast spells, they do Rune Magic, as it should be. I do not like the idea of dwarven Wizards. I am just not against their being rare exceptions (I might be tempted to use one as crazy NPC, though).
I thought you would of at least liked the part where they shaved their beards and hid amongst gnomes... thats kind of a funny way to spin it (anything to do with gnomes is funny - they are D&Ds clowns). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2012 05:25:43 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 05:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On the subject of Earth & Toril:
In fact, for all we know, the other Earth-Toril portals may even go to other alternate Earths (in which case, the Yellowstone one may open to our Earth... which actually fixes something else... hmmmm).
Which is why I introduced the uncertainty element with the portals connecting Earth and Toril earlier.
I can accept that with the finicky arcane nature of some of the oldest portals still in existence, there's no guarantee that a traveller entering the ancient gateway will necessarily end up at the commonly plotted destination. Either ends of the portal may shift -- crossing both dimensions and temporal periods -- leading to many alternate versions of either Earth or Toril.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Jan 2012 05:11:36 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 05:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So let me put it this way - does it say anywhere that dwarven wizards are commonplace? I had always assumed the opposite - they were exceptions (and I have dim recollection of Ed addressing this at some point, but once again, I could be wrong). Perhaps Sage remembers something along those lines?
Indeed, I do.
'Tis from FR11 Dwarves Deep:- "Elminster . . . knows of no dwarven wizards, and believes the inherent magic resistance of 'trueblood' dwarves makes their mastery of wizardry impossible." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 05:27:29
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Typical Ed. 
It doesn't exactly say there couldn't be, either, Very clever.
Thanks for that Sage.
EDIT: And if I had my way, we'd go back to not having Dwarven wizards, but that would be a double-retcon. {sigh}
Thats one of the many, MANY things they simply can't reconcile with their 'one rules to rule them all' plan - what happens when a 1e-lover is playing at a table with someone who insists on running a dwarven wizard? You can only make rules do so much - in the end, people will still have their edition preferences, no matter what. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2012 05:31:22 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 06:27:19
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quote:
Sage Redhatquote:
Markustay
On the subject of Earth & Toril:
In fact, for all we know, the other Earth-Toril portals may even go to other alternate Earths (in which case, the Yellowstone one may open to our Earth... which actually fixes something else... hmmmm).
Which is why I introduced the uncertainty element with the portals connecting Earth and Toril earlier.
I can accept that with the finicky arcane nature of some of the oldest portals still in existence, there's no guarantee that a traveller entering the ancient gateway will necessarily end up at the commonly plotted destination. Either ends of the portal may shift -- crossing both dimensions and temporal periods -- leading to many alternate versions of either Earth or Toril.
I suppose once you violate the normal rules of time, space, dimension, and causality you invoke the Uncertainty Principle. Every teleport might move you to a nearly identical world, but one where (somehow) you end up standing somewhere else.
Now I should wonder if there's a nearly infinite number of Sigils at the center of a nearly infinite number of universes ... or if there's just exactly one Sigil at the exact center of all things?
Note my above reference to FR11, along with a suggestion about how it might allow for dwarven wizards. Although I'm inclined to prefer a 3E explanation (such as Thunder Blessing) because dwarven wizards did not exist in 2E (outside of a rare handful of extraordinary circumstances). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Jan 2012 06:32:34 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 08:10:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Sage Redhatquote:
Markustay
On the subject of Earth & Toril:
In fact, for all we know, the other Earth-Toril portals may even go to other alternate Earths (in which case, the Yellowstone one may open to our Earth... which actually fixes something else... hmmmm).
Which is why I introduced the uncertainty element with the portals connecting Earth and Toril earlier.
I can accept that with the finicky arcane nature of some of the oldest portals still in existence, there's no guarantee that a traveller entering the ancient gateway will necessarily end up at the commonly plotted destination. Either ends of the portal may shift -- crossing both dimensions and temporal periods -- leading to many alternate versions of either Earth or Toril.
I suppose once you violate the normal rules of time, space, dimension, and causality you invoke the Uncertainty Principle. Every teleport might move you to a nearly identical world, but one where (somehow) you end up standing somewhere else.
Well, the normal laws of time, space, dimension, and causality probably don't work the same way in the Realms. As the Old Grey Box states:- "The physics of the Realms are slightly out of sync with the rest of the planes, so that gunpowder and many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player-characters. DM’s judgment is advised as to what may be allowed into the world." [DM's Sourcebook of the Realms pg. 9]
I'd assume this also applies to the more "philosophical" physical laws as well, like quantum uncertainty, space-time relativity, transcendental engineering, etc.
quote:
Now I should wonder if there's a nearly infinite number of Sigils at the center of a nearly infinite number of universes ... or if there's just exactly one Sigil at the exact center of all things?
You're going to make me dig out my old thread from the first incarnation of the planewalker.com boards to help answer this, aren't you?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 11:23:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
They shrunk the noses for the 3ed. And dont even get me started on Peter Jackson...
How did Peter Jackson get changed between editions? 
Dont you know anything? Bakshi is 1st ed. Rankin/Bass is 2nd, LotR is 3ed. and we will see if the Hobbit is 4th or 5th. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 16:14:59
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Topic: Tyr and Asmodeus: FIGHT!!
The lore we have dictates that Tyr abdicated his divinity/power to Torm, then went off to fight against a demon invasion. What we do NOT know is how MUCH power Tyr maintained even after giving some to Torm--obviously it was probably something, because he'd been a greater deity for all this time, and that doesn't just go away.
It is my supposition that in the course of fighting the invading demons, Tyr made a pact with Asmodeus: in exchange for enough power to save the Upper Planes, he agreed to serve Asmodeus for a time. I think this is something Tyr would do, because he was in serious doubts about his abilities to make good decisions and lead--it is the action of a desperate man. Asmodeus followed through on his end of the bargain, empowering Tyr enough to stop the invasion. Unfortunately, Tyr didn't read the fine print, wherein Asmodeus didn't specify Tyr's BODY would serve him--he drained out Tyr's soul, along with his last divine essence, and absorbed it into himself. This way, Tyr would serve Asmodeus eternally. Tyr's body fell in the battle, and met whatever ultimate fate it met. (My games operate under the assumption that Tyr's skull decorates a certain death wand in the hands of a certain demon prince. I don't know if that's at all canonical.)
Asmodeus was already basically a god before this happened, so it just increased his power. He derived divine power from all the devils in all the hells, which "worship" him--albeit not in quite the same way as most Realmsians worship gods. Remember it was made clear that Mystra herself considered Asmodeus a worthy foe, particularly on his home turf (El goes to Hell).
I think Asmodeus absorbing some of Tyr's lingering power also explains why he'd end up with tyrannical/evil aspects of his portfolio: Tyr's power, corrupted by a devil god.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 16:21:46
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I will defer the succubi/erinyes argument to Erin's blog about it. She's a smart lady, and that particular piece is pretty keen.
Topic: THE GNOME KNOWS NOSES
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
This is probably an idiotic one but:
What happened too the gnomish noses and the hins weight problem somewhere around 1370?
Problems absolutely caused more by rule-changes than lore products, but it would be fun to see your take on it.
I might be tempted to take a potshot at my good friend and fellow designer Brian R. James (when you look at us standing next to each other, he’s the gnome and I’m the goliath), but I’ll give it a tweak (of the nose):
Mechanically, the artistic direction varies from edition to edition. I don’t think the issue is as big a deal—you should go with your own imagination rather than what you see in the art.
Lore-wise, I might suggest that the diminishing nose and halfling weight issues were a result of contact with humans (socially or biologically) that led to selection of children that were “more human like.” Gnomes/Halflings might have largely come to accept the human idea of beauty, and so small-nosed gnomes and slim Halflings became all the rage. I think they are MORE plentiful in 4e than in 3e, where they look even more human-ish. (Or perhaps gnomes look more “elf-ish,” which is more appropriate to what they’d consider beautiful.) This tendency could have been conscious or unconscious.
No great sweeping magical secret: just halflings and gnomes wanting to look like their widely-accepted-as-beautiful larger kin, and seeking out mates whose features tend in that direction.
Topic: WHAT OF THE JAEZRED CHAULSSIN?
quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
Canon Issue: While we have the Wyrmshadow WE, not much is truly known about the Jaezred Chaulssin. Is is possible for you to elaborate on their agents, strongholds and perhaps back-stories/history??
This isn’t really a canon issue so much as a “ooh, I want to know more about this subject!” Alas, I don’t know much about the Jaezred Chaulssin, but I suspect that you’ll find the Menzoberranzan book of interest in this regard. Other than that, NDA.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 16:44:08
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Daaaamn it, you were supposed to be completely stumped by my question, and Kilvan would have have been brought to canonical glory! Gotta find something else now...
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Edited by - Kilvan on 24 Jan 2012 16:45:02 |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 17:20:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Topic: Tyr and Asmodeus: FIGHT!!
The lore we have dictates that Tyr abdicated his divinity/power to Torm, then went off to fight against a demon invasion. What we do NOT know is how MUCH power Tyr maintained even after giving some to Torm--obviously it was probably something, because he'd been a greater deity for all this time, and that doesn't just go away.
It is my supposition that in the course of fighting the invading demons, Tyr made a pact with Asmodeus: in exchange for enough power to save the Upper Planes, he agreed to serve Asmodeus for a time. I think this is something Tyr would do, because he was in serious doubts about his abilities to make good decisions and lead--it is the action of a desperate man. Asmodeus followed through on his end of the bargain, empowering Tyr enough to stop the invasion. Unfortunately, Tyr didn't read the fine print, wherein Asmodeus didn't specify Tyr's BODY would serve him--he drained out Tyr's soul, along with his last divine essence, and absorbed it into himself. This way, Tyr would serve Asmodeus eternally. Tyr's body fell in the battle, and met whatever ultimate fate it met. (My games operate under the assumption that Tyr's skull decorates a certain death wand in the hands of a certain demon prince. I don't know if that's at all canonical.)
Asmodeus was already basically a god before this happened, so it just increased his power. He derived divine power from all the devils in all the hells, which "worship" him--albeit not in quite the same way as most Realmsians worship gods. Remember it was made clear that Mystra herself considered Asmodeus a worthy foe, particularly on his home turf (El goes to Hell).
I think Asmodeus absorbing some of Tyr's lingering power also explains why he'd end up with tyrannical/evil aspects of his portfolio: Tyr's power, corrupted by a devil god.
Cheers
Blech!! Exceedingly plausible and well thought out, but definitely not a fan of that series of events. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 17:32:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Topic: Tyr and Asmodeus: FIGHT!!
The lore we have dictates that Tyr abdicated his divinity/power to Torm, then went off to fight against a demon invasion. What we do NOT know is how MUCH power Tyr maintained even after giving some to Torm--obviously it was probably something, because he'd been a greater deity for all this time, and that doesn't just go away.
It is my supposition that in the course of fighting the invading demons, Tyr made a pact with Asmodeus: in exchange for enough power to save the Upper Planes, he agreed to serve Asmodeus for a time. I think this is something Tyr would do, because he was in serious doubts about his abilities to make good decisions and lead--it is the action of a desperate man. Asmodeus followed through on his end of the bargain, empowering Tyr enough to stop the invasion. Unfortunately, Tyr didn't read the fine print, wherein Asmodeus didn't specify Tyr's BODY would serve him--he drained out Tyr's soul, along with his last divine essence, and absorbed it into himself. This way, Tyr would serve Asmodeus eternally. Tyr's body fell in the battle, and met whatever ultimate fate it met. (My games operate under the assumption that Tyr's skull decorates a certain death wand in the hands of a certain demon prince. I don't know if that's at all canonical.)
Asmodeus was already basically a god before this happened, so it just increased his power. He derived divine power from all the devils in all the hells, which "worship" him--albeit not in quite the same way as most Realmsians worship gods. Remember it was made clear that Mystra herself considered Asmodeus a worthy foe, particularly on his home turf (El goes to Hell).
I think Asmodeus absorbing some of Tyr's lingering power also explains why he'd end up with tyrannical/evil aspects of his portfolio: Tyr's power, corrupted by a devil god.
I really can't see this happening. Tyr's roots are of the Norse pantheon, and he consistently fought the Jotnar with no quarter given. For someone who wouldn't truck with giants, I have a hard time seeing Tyr make a pact with any demon or devil. It's just really not in his character; he would die first. The closest he got to something like this was putting his hand into Fenris's mouth, and Tyr knew full well that he was tricking the wolf (and I seem to remember something along these lines re: Kezef, but I could be wrong).
Even to "save the upper planes", I can't see Tyr making a pact with demons or devils. His underlying character was to fight to the bitter end and true death, even knowing about Ragnarok ahead of time. If Asmodeus absorbed any of Tyr's power, it would have to have been stolen or usurped from Tyr. No amount of desperation, even certain death, would make Tyr go through with a such a pact. It would make Tyr a hypocrite, and his mortal worshipers would consider it a seriously hypocritical move.
Just my two cents.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 24 Jan 2012 17:35:30 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 17:34:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I really can't see this happening. Tyr's roots are of the Norse pantheon, and he consistently fought the Jotnar with no quarter given. For someone who wouldn't truck with giants, I have a hard time seeing Tyr make a pact with any demon or devil. It's just really not in his character; he would die first. The closest he got to something like this was putting his hand into Fenris's mouth, and Tyr knew full well that he was tricking the wolf (and I seem to remember something along these lines re: Kezef, but I could be wrong).
Even to "save the upper planes", I can't see Tyr making a pact with demons or devils. His underlying character was to fight to the bitter end, even knowing about Ragnarok ahead of time. If Asmodeus absorbed any of Tyr's power, it would have to have been stolen or usurped from Tyr.
Just my two cents.
It wasn't in his character to kill Helm over a failed romance to begin with. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 17:37:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I really can't see this happening. Tyr's roots are of the Norse pantheon, and he consistently fought the Jotnar with no quarter given. For someone who wouldn't truck with giants, I have a hard time seeing Tyr make a pact with any demon or devil. It's just really not in his character; he would die first. The closest he got to something like this was putting his hand into Fenris's mouth, and Tyr knew full well that he was tricking the wolf (and I seem to remember something along these lines re: Kezef, but I could be wrong).
Even to "save the upper planes", I can't see Tyr making a pact with demons or devils. His underlying character was to fight to the bitter end, even knowing about Ragnarok ahead of time. If Asmodeus absorbed any of Tyr's power, it would have to have been stolen or usurped from Tyr.
Just my two cents.
It wasn't in his character to kill Helm over a failed romance to begin with.
Well, technically we don't know the details of that. We do know that the Norse gods were anthropomorphic, in the sense that the Greek gods were, and mortal passions did move them.
I agree, a failed romance isn't in Tyr's character either. But adding more out-of-character behavior to Tyr doesn't seem to be a good answer.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 18:13:43
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If Tyr holds law above good, then I could see him siding with lawful fiends to 'stop the chaos'. Just my opinion, is all. FR Tyr was somewhat different then core/Nordic Tyr.
Erin's blog? I must have missed something. 
My own convoluted lore went with the "they just went home" theory, which I've used for other things (like Maztica). It just seems easier to say they were always the same, but there was a schism at some point.
Of Noses and fat hobbitesesss
Gondsman Gnomes discovered the art of plastic surgery. Ever since,'Gnomish Princesses' have been getting 'Snoz jobs' for their name-day celebrations.
1370DR - Halflings of Luiren discover a process of rendering cheese fat-free, while still maintaining its delicious taste. This spreads like wildfire across Faerûn for the next two years.
1371DR - 'slim is the new black' in Luiren - halfling diet and exercise gurus become all the rage in cities like Waterdeep and Silverymoon. Riichart Hairfoot of Simmons invents his 'Deal-a-Meals' to help halflings with their 6-meal a day diets. It is a huge success after he tours the Crystal-ball talk-show circuit.
1385DR - after the inundation of magically contaminated waters, much of Luiren's 'diet cheese' is destroyed. However, the mutanagenic effects of the waters causes massive growth-spurts among halfligs, and also dramatically increases their metabolisms. They are taller, slimmer, and have epic cases of Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Folks begin to call them 'Kender'.
Noses and weight problems, seriously?
We got bigger Locathah to fry. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2012 22:18:28 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 18:18:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<snip>
Of Noses and fat hobittesesss
Gondsman Gnomes discovered the art of plastic surgery. Ever since,'Gnomish Princesses' have been getting 'Snoz jobs' for their name-day celebrations.
1370DR - Halflings of Luiren discover a process of rendering cheese fat-free, while still maintaining its delicious taste. This spreads like wildfire across Faerûn for the next two years.
1371DR - 'slim is the new black' in Luiren - halfling diet and exercise gurus become all the rage in cities like Waterdeep and Silverymoon. Riichart Hairfoot of Simmons invents his 'Deal-a-Meals' to help halflings with their 6-meal a day diets. It is a huge success after he tours the Crystal-ball talk-show circuit.
1385DR - after the inundation of magically contaminated waters, much of Luiren 'diet cheese' is destroyed. However, the mutanagenic effects of the waters causes massive growth-spurts among halfligs, and also dramatically increases their metabolisms. They are taller, slimmer, and have epic cases of Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Folks begin to call them 'Kender'.
Noses and weight problems, seriously?
We got bigger Locathah to fry.
I fully agree, Mark... but this WORKS! I like it, and would love to see it made canon... mostly because it allows us to keep our big-nosed gnomes if we like them (as I do). Now, for everyone else, can we move on to the bigger issues? Please? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4454 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 18:32:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
<snip>
Topic: Tyr and Asmodeus: FIGHT!!
<snip?
I like it. Much more devious than what I had initially intended. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 18:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Erin's blog? I must have missed something.
I think Erik means THIS. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
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He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 21:29:29
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@Tyr + Asmodeus: Ah, but keep in mind that at that point, Tyr was no longer a god, and MUCH more prone to lapses of judgment. Would it really be better for him to FAIL in defending the Upper Planes, rather than compromise his principles?
Picture this: Tyr, devastated by the Helm incident (post forthcoming about this), determines on this course--that it is the only way to die with honor. At the outset, Tyr is doing well against the demons, but it's obviously very difficult. Asmodeus offers him a pact, but he refuses, destroying the devils that sought to seduce him.
Tyr fights on and suffers a great wound--he is getting very tired and starts to fear he will fall before the war is won. Asmodeus sends more devils, but again Tyr refuses the pact.
Tyr fights on, but ultimately cannot defeat the most powerful demon (Orcus, say). As he lies dying, Asmoedus approaches him for a third time in this, his darkest hour, when all hope is lost, and offers him just enough power to get the job done. To the best of his ability, even while wounded and exhausted, Old Grimjaws weighs the options and finally decides that this is his just fate, for erring so badly against Helm. He takes the bargain and drives off the demons. Then and only then does the fine print kick in, and Tyr accepts being bound to Asmodeus as his just punishment for failing in his duty to justice.
I think this is a tragic fall, and I for one rather like such stories.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 21:53:08
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Topic: DAYS OF OUR DEITIES
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
Ok, here is one that has been eating at me for a long time: Please make sense of the Tymora + Tyr betrothal / Helms recreation of Roxanne / and the subsequent murder of Helm by Tyr. A CG goddess marrying a LG god is unlikely. The two alignments often clash (sometimes violently), even when working toward the same goal (Thornhold is a good example of such clashing).
(This one should also be easy for you since you have already put a lot of thought into it.)
Aww. Well, my work with Helm doesn’t really run to the romantic side of the character—though Shadowbane himself is a charming bastard, in his own way. There’s just something about bad boys . . .
I don’t really know the specifics of this, so this is all going to be speculative. I understand this as a growing alliance of priesthoods for one reason or another. Here are some possibilities:
As you know, Tymora and Tyr were (in their heyday) both extremely popular faiths for adventurers, leading to COUNTLESS iterations of the LG paladin of Tyr and the CG priestess of Tymora having spirited banter in the middle of battle and, well, you know the rest of the story. The years leading up to the Spellplague were extremely popular for adventurers, and the rise of the adventuring worshipper of these deities may well have led to a tighter bond between the two faiths.
Also, there’s a whole discussion to be had about Justice and Chance, so Tymora and Tyr have things in common.
It might be a consolidating move to try to resist the growing power of Tempus—a warrior god (like Tyr is a warrior god) who claims dominance over the fortunes of battle (Tymora’s thing).
There could have been a coordinated strike on one church or the other, while the other church came to its rescue, and they left with an alliance.
These are all just possible explanations for why Lady Luck and old Grimjaws might have grown closer together. We have seen countless examples of churches forming alliances regardless of alignment—Sune and anybody she’s allies with, for instance.
Now as for the romance, here’s where it gets murky, but roll with me a minute. I have this concept—the tragic love triangle is reflective of their mortal high priests.
(Yep, you heard me right.)
Specifically, there were four of them, adventurers active in the 3e era:
- Malantiir, LG human male paladin of Tyr, bold and brave
- Oevere, CG half-elf female cleric of Tymora, cheery and optimistic
- Helian, LN human male fighter/divine champion of Helm, cool and stoic
- Eselve, NE half-drow female illusionist/rogue (secretly sworn to Shar), seductive and mysterious
(See where this is going?)
These four were the perfect representations of what service to their respective deities meant. They fought great evils, saved countless lives, and advanced the causes of their respective deities. Over the course of their career, they became extremely powerful, well known, and influential in their various churches. Maybe the gods are experimenting with appointing Chosen of their own, just as Mystra has done (though obviously not on the same scale). We know the gods in 4e have Chosen, if only because that path is open to PCs.
Ultimately, why are these four specifically so successful? Well, because they were heroes, and because Shar was making sure it happened.
Malantiir (the high priest of Tyr) and Oevere (high priestess of Tymora) grew to be friends, and from there to lovers. They were both so powerful and influential in their respect churches that they spoke of “marrying them,” in a sense: they started working toward similar, joint goals, and they began preaching similar things about justice and fortune and fate and all that. How much love was really in this connection between the high priests is debatable—it might have been a political/religious arrangement more than actual affection.
Enter Helian, perfect knight of Helm, sworn to be Oevere's priestess’s protector and (through her) to protect her church. This isn’t just some bodyguard, though—he is THE champion of Helm, and he might even wield a certain sword whose name starts with the letter V (ahem…). He sees the growing influence of Tyr’s church over her as a threat, which is tinged of course by his own feelings for her. You see, he's been in love with Oevere since they first started adventuring, but always tried to keep his feelings quiescent so they wouldn't interfere with his duty. It was his hope that some day, something more would grow between them. And while he tried to be happy for her with Malantiir, he could never quite stop being jealous of what they had together.
(Eselve, of course, had spent her entire career encouraging this jealousy.)
Add a little love triangle, maybe a seduction or four by Eselve in disguise as Oevere, and you have a recipe for courtly love/hate and a challenge of honor. Helian challenges Malantiir for Oevere, on the grounds that he is a threat to her and her church--Malantiir accepts the challenge because he believes Helian has been corrupted by Sharrans and because he has no choice..
And what do the gods do? They follow through with the duel. The religious synergy has already been happening, and Tyr is honor-bound to his commitments to Tymora, while Helm is honor-bound to protect Tymora's church, just as his high priest has sworn to do. They fight, just as the mortal men fight over their mutual beloved.
And OF COURSE this is empowered/expedited/set up by Shar. She has been working for decades (ever since these mortals were born), throwing just enough opposition against them to sculpt them (in the way of PCs) into the most perfect vessels of their gods’ power. And her plan came together: when Tyr defeated Helm (as of course he was going to do, being far more powerful than him), it resulted in the death of the God of Guardians and destroyed Tyr psychologically. (All part of Shar's greater plan!)
Of course, the “god’s sword” ended up elsewhere . . .
So there’s the explanation *I* go with in my games: religious alliances and infighting, tinged with just enough mortal jealousy. I think that’s steeped in Realmslore: that gods are so dependent on their mortals. It’s a little metaphysical how exactly Shar pulled it off, but I think there’s no question she has the potential to plan something that audacious—and cover her tracks so the gods only suspect that she was involved.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 24 Jan 2012 21:58:09 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 22:21:48
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Does this mean we can make my hypothetical module - To Spare Tyr! a reality in 5e?
Or are my Greyhawk roots showing again?
@Erik I really like that, but for some reason I don't want to like it, which annoys me, because I don't know why I feel that way. Make any sense?
The reasoning is sound, though. Perhaps I just like my deities a bit more disconnected from mortals, but I also believe religion (the gods, cosmology, etc) is shaped by mortal belief (dogma), which is a conundrum (for me). Its hard to keep them 'mysterious' when they are tethered to mortals like that.
Either way, nice. It works for me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2012 22:32:35 |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 23:04:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
2) Return the Crinti to Dambrath (I have my own idea, but would like to see you do it first ) Their removel was imo a loss because Dambrath as a Crinti Realm had a unique flavor and in 4e they had to make room for a land of 'shifter' barbarians. I won't ask for a total removel of the shifters but for a return of the loviatar-lolth worshiping half-drow to their holdings.
4)Unrevel the Mystery of Angharradh. Now Queen of Arvandor,formerly the Triune Goddess, the elven goddesses she was formed from are only aspects of two other goddesses and one primordial. (Well maybe in 4e Corellon doesn't look that androgynous anymore? )
And a new one: Green or Silver Moon?
Probably easy to fix, but for 5e I would wish to know if 4e moon stayed green ( as described below... what did the xenophobic Selunites think of being exposed), as 4e FRCG had no discription of the solar system like in 3e FRCS.
Pictures in the Player's Handbook indicate, that the moon later returned to it's silver.white light, but I believe the illusion masking the moon was originally crafted by Leira? Who replaced it?
Spellplague: The Wailing Years
by Brian James
Excerpt from the journal of Arleenaya Kithmaer, First Magistrati of the House of the High One Ascendant, Year of Blue Fire (1385 DR)
"(...) I witnessed the cerulean thunderhead crash into the mighty Lhairghal, throwing pillars of azure fire skyward to snatch at Selûne's calming light. Selûne, my gods! The surface of the moon, long presented to us mortals as a barren landscape of craters and lifeless valleys, now revealed to me majestic mountains and sprawling seas; itself alight with similar cobalt radiance.(...)"
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 04:31:25
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Topic: The Eldest and Ao
The Eldest of the Abolethic Sovereignty is (arguably) older and more powerful than Ao. And this comes from the novel of an in-house writer. What "facts" would support this claim? And why would Ao allow an alien penetrate his own crystal sphere if the said race poses a great threat to him an his creation? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 05:28:53
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@Lirdolin: Yes, I'm getting to your most excellent questions. It's a busy week, doing my final edits on EYE OF JUSTICE, including characters based on participants in this scroll, etc., etc. 
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Topic: The Eldest and Ao
The Eldest of the Abolethic Sovereignty is (arguably) older and more powerful than Ao. And this comes from the novel of an in-house writer. What "facts" would support this claim? And why would Ao allow an alien penetrate his own crystal sphere if the said race poses a great threat to him an his creation?
OMG, you've GOT to be making that up.
No, you probably aren't. Le sigh.
This is one of those situations where we're dealing with planar entities that are simply beyond the comprehension of the gods. So it is POSSIBLE that this "eldest" is its own sort of Far Realm overpower, on a level with Ao. Ao wouldn't have anything to say about "allowing" it in--if it's more powerful than he is, it can just ignore his commandments.
Also more likely is that it's simply wrong, and Ao "allows it" in Realmspace because it isn't really a threat to him. The Eldest probably "serves" Ao, just like all the other gods do. What we're seeing is just another god joining Realmspace--or, more accurately, becoming more prominent, since aboleths were always there before, just not as powerful as they are in 4e.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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