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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 17:01:54
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I will say what I always say when alignment surfaces as a topic:
Alignment is a measurable effect, not a cause. If more people understood that it's just a nominal label for the aggregate measure of behavior over time, and not a "thing" or a "cause", everyone in this debate would be a lot better off.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 19:15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I will say what I always say when alignment surfaces as a topic:
Alignment is a measurable effect, not a cause. If more people understood that it's just a nominal label for the aggregate measure of behavior over time, and not a "thing" or a "cause", everyone in this debate would be a lot better off.
Love the definition. Brilliant, sir (or lady?). |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 20:11:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if we're overstating the value of alignment in the lore. I think powerful extraplaner entities weren't defined by their alignment--rather, their alignment was defined by THEM. For example, IMO, Devils have a rigid organizational structure--hence, they are lawful evil, not vice versa. It's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg situation, but you see what I'm getting at?
I think that they are more connected then it appears on the surface - that extra-planer beings that are native to a particular plane are generated by that plane - their physical forms are actually constructed from the material of the plane itself, which is a physical manifestation of a particular alignment. Mortals* do not have this problem, because they are native to the Prime Material, and are more connected to the elements then they are to alignments.
Which begs the question: What is born when two fiends do the nasty in Celestia? (well hidden behind some bushes, of course).
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's absolutely the case that alignment is extremely helpful in shaping the personality/outlook/purpose of a creature, but there's so much room for ambiguity in moral/ethical debates that a "looser" alignment system seems much more realistic to me than a strict two-axis system.
Which is why most DMs (the ones who run their games in a more free-form fashion) don't try to dissect every little decision made by characters. Tools are there to be used only if we need them. If I don't use a particular size socket wrench in my garage for years, do I throw it out? NO, I keep it for when I need it.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I also wonder if alignment isn't an outdated concept that is more restrictive and complicating to the game than is worth it. Does alignment make the game more fun? Or does it just place too many strictures on your character?
See my response above. It is not out-dated, its just under-used (which isn't the same as useless).
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I guess I'm wishy-washy about it as well. Alignment is largely ignored in my games (all the way back to 1e games). I treat it like encumbrance: it doesn't really affect you, unless you do something really egregious (like carry 100,000 gp in your backpack).
As I said, Most of us run games this way (all the ones I have been privy too, anyway). I include encumbrance in that - most people ignored most rules, in all editions, when players weren't taking advantage of a situation.
HOWEVER, my point is that most of those rules that most of us ignored were there when we needed them, which is important when you are having control issues. Limiting the DMs toolbox was probably the biggest mistake 4e made.
IMHO, of course.
Did I use the alignment rules? Not really - it barely came up. Did I like them? Yes, definitely. Planescape was an amazing setting (no small thanks to Tony DiTerlizzi), and alignments were the core mechanic of that entire setting - what they did needs to be fixed, because it is one of the underlying hinge-pins that make Dungeons & Dragons D&D.
*By Mortal, I mean a native of the Material plane, and not 'persons who die', since in D&D, everything is technically immortal if it attains enough power. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jan 2012 20:27:33 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 20:24:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if we're overstating the value of alignment in the lore. I think powerful extraplaner entities weren't defined by their alignment--rather, their alignment was defined by THEM. For example, IMO, Devils have a rigid organizational structure--hence, they are lawful evil, not vice versa. It's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg situation, but you see what I'm getting at?
I think that they are more connected then it appears on the surface - that extra-planer beings that are native to a particular plane are generated by that plane - their physical forms are actually constructed from the material of the plane itself, which is a physical manifestation of a particular alignment. Mortals* do not have this problem, because they are native to the Prime Material, and are more connected to the elements then they are to alignments.
I think this is over-emphasized, greatly. Aren't we, as mortals, generated from the material of our prime material plane? Honestly, I don't see a difference. So a demon gets spewed out of a pod (if that's how it happens). We are also made up of the physical material of our plane... we are birthed, but we grow out of atomic material, which is the "stuff" of our reality. Atoms combine into molecules, then molecular protein chains into cellular walls and fragments, which then aggregate into specific organs and our bodies.
How are we, as mortals, not considered to be made of the "stuff" of our prime material? Why is the process for demons different? Just because they might not be born?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 20:37:27
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I thought I made it clear - the Outer Planes were generated by the need for alignments - they represent the juxtaposition of law vs chaos, good over evil. They are the physical representation of a particular cosmic concept.
The material plane was constructed out of the neutral, physical matter of the elemental planes. Almost any sentient creature has free-will, but beings born in the Material Plane(s) are not predisposed toward a particular alignment. The material they are constructed from isn't already tainted by a particular concept.
On Avernus, even the rocks are evil - the entire plane radiates a palatable aura of it. Thats just the nature of the Outer Planes.
Nature vs Nurture comes into play as well, and that why you can have 'fallen angels' and 'repentant fiends'. A being can overcome its own core nature.
I am trying to construct my own alignment chart (someone requested it), and hopefully - if I can find something better then Paint - I will be able to post my own thread on it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 02:20:31
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I see it a different way, MT: 4e presents another, optional alignment system, but doesn't force you to use it in order to make the mechanical system work. So by your analogy, WotC handed you a new, less complicated socket wrench and said, use this if you like. No reason you can't use the older system, redefining creatures' alignments as you see fit.
That sounds like an expanded toolbox to me, not limited.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 12:59:58
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| But only if you know about the earlier alignment system. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 15:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
But only if you know about the earlier alignment system.
Sure. It seems unlikely you'd be clamoring to use something you don't know exists. And by the magic of the "Summon Interwebs" (effect: target is paralyzed in front of the glowing screen), doing this sort of research isn't tough.
WotC's just gving out a different, five-configurations tool to use. Maybe it's the only one you know, maybe you've used one of the nine-configurations tools, or maybe you use the original five-configurations version. Every edition has its own tweaked alignment system. Use what you want.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 15:59:59
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I think this discussion about the alignment system gets to fundamental questions about what you want in your fantasy in terms of morality.
In traditional high fantasy, good and evil are palpable forces--they're metaphors for the struggles you face on a daily basis in the real world. Orcs take on a metaphoric aspect: they aren't really living creatures, but representations of evil. Maybe for you, devils/demons are the representation. In which case, your fantasy is about defining good and evil as actual, honest-to-gods forces that drive your universe. To frame it in the nature vs. nurture debate, this makes good and evil strictly NATURE.
In more modern fantasy (and I would argue in swords and sorcery as well), good and evil are less cosmic--instead of universal forces, they are the result of actions, not causes in themselves. "Evil" guys can do good things, "good" guys can do bad things. Your morality may be gray (which IMO is interesting) or it may be strictly black and white (which IMO is cardboard cut-out). Characters have motives more than "good for good's sake" or "evil for evil's sake." Good and evil are a product of NURTURE.
(It's the same for law and chaos, btw.)
I prefer to write fantasy wherein good and evil are not cosmic forces, but determined on an individual basis. Heroes and villains in my books don't fall neatly into the good and evil buckets, and though I strive to offer a clear moral vision, a character isn't good or evil BY NATURE, but rather by deed and motivation (i.e. NURTURE).
But this strays considerably far from the topic at hand, and there have been plenty of threads devoted to this very topic. Let's keep the discussion focused on Realmslore, shall we?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 16:03:10
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Topic: HIGH MAGIC REALMS AND THE INCONSISTENCY OF THE SPELLPLAGUEquote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
1) Why did, out of the 3-4 (if counting vanished Nimbral)high magic-user realms, only Halruaa go ka-bloom and the other didn't? What did Thay and Netheril do, not only to not go ka-bloom (Shade falling out of the sky like in the good old days), but actually grow in power?
quote:
Originally posted by arry
2. The Spellplague itself. It behaved in a self-inconsistent manner; destroying and changing parts of the Realms beyond recognition and leaving the ‘popular’ areas like Cormyr and the Sword Coast alone.
I group these two questions together, because one is the explanation for the other. Also see my note about Shade elsewhere in this thread (it might still be forthcoming). Thay, as pointed out elsewhere, was indeed devastated. We saw how the Spellplague affected it in RLB’s Haunted Lands trilogy, so I don’t want to comment too much there.
Yes, the Spellplague was inconsistent, which is part of its definition: it’s a sweeping wave of chaotic WILD MAGIC. Yup, straight-up post-Time of Troubles, 2e WILD MAGIC, on a global scale. If you’re rolling a d100 for everything that happens to a given area, then of course it’s going to be inconsistent. The odds of the same thing happening to two different realms are so remote as to be functionally impossible. We cannot impose order on pure chaos.
I also consider a sweeping global epidemic a worthy analogy: it may affect most people in a similar way, but the damages it wreaks on various societies (and how those societies recover) can vary widely. And the Spellplague doesn’t even infect all people the same way. So of course it’s going to have strange and unexpected effects.
(Mechanically speaking, did the designers use this as their tool to justify some pretty weird changes? Sure. Does that mean they can’t be brought under the same umbrella as the rest of the Realms? Absolutely not, which is exactly what we’re doing here.)
About Halruaa specifically: I think so much of Mystra’s power was concentrated there (vastly more than Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Chosen or no) that it suffered a heightened effect. Thay had a lot of magic, sure, but the vast majority of its people were just serfs living in the mud. Shade used mostly shadow weave magic, and though we know the shadow weave collapsed, we have no reason to think it collapsed quite as catastrophically (and it had the advantage of a goddess to mitigate the worst of the damages). Nimbral was like Halruaa, but much smaller, so it earned less of the Spellplague’s wrath.
Thay and Shade may have grown in power, but that’s over the last CENTURY, not immediately. Thay had the advantage of Szass Tam, Shade had the 12 Princes. On the other hand, Halruaa had a gaping crater and active Spellplague. Clearly a no-win scenario.
While it was serious bad luck that Halruaa blew up, I think thematically, it was actually kind of appropriate: Halruaa was sort of a proto-Netheril. That its fall came long before it could amass the same level of hubris that drove Karsus to doom the Netherese empire is just rotten luck, but some believe the fall of Halruaa was inevitable.
Topic: RUE THE DAY OF HALRUAA’S DESTRUCTION
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why was Halruaa destroyed?
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
(Won't ask you to rebuilt Halruaa, because you seem to be on your way of doing that anyway. )
Well, I just suggested how it COULD be done—specifically, how *I* would probably do it: the survivors of Halruaa band together with the survivors of Lantan (which has turned into a sunken city of Atlantis kind of place) and create an advanced-science dominion with all kinds of gondsmen (warforged, thanks Diffan!). That doesn’t mean it is going to be so. I just think that would be cool. (Which is all about what this thread is looking for.)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 16:05:57
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Questions check--according to my records, I have the following questions outstanding:
- Guallidarth
- The Crinti
- Angharradh
Let me know if there are others?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 16:09:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Questions check--according to my records, I have the following questions outstanding:
- Guallidarth
- The Crinti
- Angharradh
Let me know if there are others?
Cheers
I covered one possible explanation for Angharradh a while back with one of my Monday Musings. |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 19:56:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Questions check--according to my records, I have the following questions outstanding:
- Guallidarth
- The Crinti
- Angharradh
Let me know if there are others?
Cheers
Green moon or silver moon?  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 20:12:11
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And here I thought certain regions were spared because the most enigmatic beings of all - those Magi who dwell upon the shores of the Ethereal Seas - choose to champion those places, standing betwixt them and the Cerulean wave, brandishing their mighty Swords of Poetic License and Shields of Author-Caveat!
New Question: Who put the wheels on Gauntlgrym and rolled it over to a new spot? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2012 20:15:32 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 20:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
New Question: Who put the wheels on Gauntlgrym and rolled it over to a new spot?
Must have been one of those map gremlins, they keep doing that even to the maps of a certain cartogrpaher with the initials MT  whose Lands of Intrigue (Erlkazar, Tethyr, Calimshan) area maps see good use in my campaign. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 21:00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
New Question: Who put the wheels on Gauntlgrym and rolled it over to a new spot?
Must have been one of those map gremlins, they keep doing that even to the maps of a certain cartogrpaher with the initials MT whose Lands of Intrigue (Erlkazar, Tethyr, Calimshan) area maps see good use in my campaign.
As I understand it, there have been many *possible* locations for Gauntlgrym in the canon, but it was not officially and unequivocably located until the Neverwinter Campaign Setting. Pre-existing "canon" locations for it are really just rumors passed around by adventurers, retold by bards, and tried to make sense of by scribes. It is not until NCS that we have a hard-and-fast location on it, and even then, there's a certain amount of latitude as to exactly where it resides. The concept is that it's NEAR Mt. Hotenow--at least close enough that the stirring of Maegera prompted the volcano to burst.
I will readily admit that I'm not an expert on the history of Gauntlgrym, though, so my answer might not be terribly satisfying. Mechanically speaking, Gauntlgrym was always intended to be one of those "mysterious fallen empires" that the heroes were searching for, and also I believe (lore-wise once more) there were *multiple* "Gauntlgryms" that existed or were said to exist in the distant past.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 21:00:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
New Question: Who put the wheels on Gauntlgrym and rolled it over to a new spot?
Must have been one of those map gremlins, they keep doing that even to the maps of a certain cartogrpaher with the initials MT whose Lands of Intrigue (Erlkazar, Tethyr, Calimshan) area maps see good use in my campaign.
 I hate those map gremlins. On which note, keeping things on topic, has anyone explained the differences in water level in the Sea of Fallen Stars, and do the numbers as published add up? It seems to me that the answer to the second question is No, but I want to make sure that it's not just my prejudice against the Spellplague talking.
Great work so far, Erik! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 21:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Questions check--according to my records, I have the following questions outstanding:
- Guallidarth
- The Crinti
- Angharradh
Let me know if there are others?
Cheers
Green moon or silver moon?
Depends on the light and the prevailing weather conditions. I picture Toril's moon being much like our moon: gray and largely featureless, with obvious exceptions.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 21:02:39
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Thanks Mumadar - you should have seen the last version I was working on. Too bad I couldn't stay focused enough to finish it. 
Someday.... still waiting on my contents check (damn Ins. Co.) - I'm trying to find a free App to use until I can get a new copy of PS... I'm just itching to get back into the FR mapping (I feel like I'm on a constant high since the 5.0 announcement).
Can you imagine what a map of Ed's Realms will be like? (IF we get one) - my dream has been to see his version (although he told me the Fonstad maps in the FRA were pretty darn close to his original).
EDIT: Man these forums move like wildfire lately! Erik, it was somewhere in The North, but not near Neverwinter. There was an old-edition map that actually showed the location (can't remember which one). Whatever Bruenor and Drizzt found, it wasn't Ed's Gauntlgrym. It wasn't just a rumor - adventurers found it, and even traveled back to it. In 1e, it was already considered 'rediscovered'. IIRC, at least one of those adventurers is still alive (pre-plague) - I don't think he returned with his companions (which makes me suspicious if he had something to do with their demise... he was a dwarf, if I recall).
So either those guys didn't find the real one, or Drizzt didn't. My bet is with the first guys - Bruenor has been wrong before (when he found Baffenburg and thought it was Gauntlgrym). Maybe Bruenor went senile years ago...... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2012 21:58:07 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 21:19:37
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I think the lore presents in the sourcebooks for 4e (specifically that only a dwarf of the Delzoun bloodline can "activate" things in Gauntlgrym) suggests that the Gauntlgrym near Neverwinter is the genuine article. I would suggest that the earlier adventurers who claimed to have "found" Gauntlgrym were either mistaken or purposefully deceiving everyone to some cause.
Though how did they get there, exactly, and how did they get out? Were they traveling underground? Because it's hard to keep track of exactly your position relative to the surface when you're deep in the dark. There might also have been a portal or three involved, which the adventurers might not have realized. What was marked on the map was where they THOUGHT it might be, but that doesn't mean it really *is* there--only that that's how they traveled to it.
Anyway, there's considerably more room for doubt about the 1e reference (which was purposefully crafted to be malleable) than the more recent one.
Also the whole "new lore trumps old lore," but I prefer for things to be woven together, rather than overwritten.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 21:56:54
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I was in this scroll, commenting on areas that need detailed treatments in the new edition (see the bottom of the page), when I realized that what I was typing belonged here as well; I don't recall immediately which scroll our original posts are in, but I'll try to find and link it.
quote:
So, Markustay and I both have a fix for bringing Halruaa back, but his is better, so let's go with that: the entire realm is on Abeir, or trapped in the Feywild (pulled in with Evermeet), and (my addition) it's up to the PCs to bring it back with an epic quest. That would be the perfect "positive RSE" to usher in a 5E Realms that moves forward from the Spellplague... in fact, I think I'm going to post this to Erik's scroll on the subject.
Edit: Original scroll is here... previous page of the first link. Heh. 
Anyway, just my 2 coppers, thanks in large part to the gold of Markustay's homebrew Realmslore. Thoughts? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 31 Jan 2012 22:04:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36834 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 00:21:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Questions check--according to my records, I have the following questions outstanding:
- Guallidarth
- The Crinti
- Angharradh
Let me know if there are others?
Cheers
Green moon or silver moon?
Depends on the light and the prevailing weather conditions. I picture Toril's moon being much like our moon: gray and largely featureless, with obvious exceptions.
Cheers
Canon is, though, that the moon appears this way because of an illusion first put in place by Leira, and apparently later maintained by Cyric. And canon also has this illusion falling.
Though to be honest, I've always found the lore about Leirans on Selûne to be awkward, at best (as is much of the Toril-specific lore in Realmspace). Perhaps it could be spun that the Leirans on Selûne were the ones living under a gigantic, elaborate illusion, and the green moon already reported was the illusion becoming visible from Toril just before failing entirely. It's not the best solution, but it works. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 00:51:04
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I like that! 
I never liked that part about 'moon people' either, and I think your solution may be the best - it gets rid of them entirely (almost).
Picture this: An illusion so powerful and elaborate (cast by a deity with that portfolio) that it's 'save' is well beyond the mortal range. Once anyone gets close-enough to the magic, they fall under its spell. And as we know, in D&D illusions that are believed function as if they were real.
Which means, in one horrific moment, the illusion 'flashed' into blazing glory (being 'super-charged) and seen by all across the sphere... and then it fizzled.
Leaving a whole lot of very dead people on the moon.
Now there's your Worlds Biggest Dungeon! Its like having our own little Threnody right in the Realms.
Not what Brian intended with his new lore, but I love it - good one, Wooly. The moon just went form 'cartoonish' to macabre with one easy flip of the switch. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2012 00:53:24 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 01:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Questions check--according to my records, I have the following questions outstanding:
- Guallidarth
- The Crinti
- Angharradh
Let me know if there are others?
Cheers
Green moon or silver moon?
Depends on the light and the prevailing weather conditions. I picture Toril's moon being much like our moon: gray and largely featureless, with obvious exceptions.
Cheers
Canon is, though, that the moon appears this way because of an illusion first put in place by Leira, and apparently later maintained by Cyric. And canon also has this illusion falling.
I'd say that, until we hear otherwise, Leira's illusion simply isn't what it used to be.
It may be that it has decayed somewhat, since with Leira herself now gone, the worshippers have nothing to pray to in order to continue benefiting from Leira's "gift."
Cyric taking on the illusion is an interesting prospect, perhaps even having him posing as Leira for a time. Though, I'd imagine he's only doing this because he feels he can eventually turn this sizable portion of Leira-worshippers to him and increase his power beyond Toril itself.
quote:
Though to be honest, I've always found the lore about Leirans on Selûne to be awkward, at best (as is much of the Toril-specific lore in Realmspace). Perhaps it could be spun that the Leirans on Selûne were the ones living under a gigantic, elaborate illusion, and the green moon already reported was the illusion becoming visible from Toril just before failing entirely. It's not the best solution, but it works.
I don't know. I like the idea of xenophoboic illusionists, which is how I've spun the reason for the Leirans being on the moon.
It could help to explain why the illusion exists in the first place. Perhaps these worshippers were concerned about an invasion from Toril. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36834 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 05:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't know. I like the idea of xenophoboic illusionists, which is how I've spun the reason for the Leirans being on the moon.
It could help to explain why the illusion exists in the first place. Perhaps these worshippers were concerned about an invasion from Toril.
I don't have a problem with xenophobic illusionists, I just have a problem with Selûne being inhabited by people that worship another deity. If I was a deity of the moon, and people living on that moon were dedicated to another deity, I'd be doing my best to convert them.
And the deity of lies and illusion pulling a fast one on her own followers? I'm down with that! |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 06:50:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And the deity of lies and illusion pulling a fast one on her own followers? I'm down with that!
I've been tempted to play up this element in particular.
At most, I'm intrigued by what would happen to her followers after Leira's demise. A number of hidden followers who have been kept in the dark could offer a new deity who comes calling, a potential new worshipper base. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 15:33:02
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On the Gauntlgrym question, I believe Ed has also addressed this on his Ask Ed scrolls. Possibly someone with better search-fu might be able to dig up the reference . . .
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4454 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 15:53:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Topic: RUE THE DAY OF HALRUAA’S DESTRUCTION
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why was Halruaa destroyed?
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
(Won't ask you to rebuilt Halruaa, because you seem to be on your way of doing that anyway.)
Well, I just suggested how it COULD be done—specifically, how *I* would probably do it: the survivors of Halruaa band together with the survivors of Lantan (which has turned into a sunken city of Atlantis kind of place) and create an advanced-science dominion with all kinds of gondsmen (warforged, thanks Diffan!). That doesn’t mean it is going to be so. I just think that would be cool. (Which is all about what this thread is looking for.)
Cheers
I'm Diffan and I approve this message! Though in my campaigns, Halruaa isn't as bad as many people think. The outskirts are really bad but there are some towns and the like that have been able to adapt to the situaion and they've done some rebuilding. Almost everyone has Spellscars but they're using them to help shape the future of Halruaa. And as Erik mentioned, some Halruaans left the place and found solace on a sinking Lantan who've help build that place too. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36834 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 18:33:31
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| I should like an explanation for how Halruaa's detonation caused destruction sufficient to destroy a land bridge on the other side of a nearly impassible wall of mountains, and yet still left buildings standing at ground zero. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 18:33:46
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@Erik - regardless of what it is, we know what it was, and it doesn't change the fact that some people have no problem stepping all over previous lore if it suits there current storyline to do so.
And thats just bad design. You don't see that crap over at Paizo - they respect the work of others that have 'gone before'.
When I asked Rich Baker abut the double-usage of the Tree of Life, I accused him of not reading Elaine's book. He said he had, he just forgot that part. Very honest, and I can forgive him for that for that reason. I have no problem with honest mistakes - they happen in every setting (except maybe Star Wars.... but Lucas isn't human). You fix them, and move on.
Its the blatant disregard that really sticks in my craw. Someday I will make a list of how much of FR and D&D was re-written simply to cater to ONE CHARACTER. Talk about epic elitism... 
There are two Gauntlgryms - there has to be. Although I am sure RAS wants his to be 'the real one', that can't be the case -
quote:
From FR5 The Savage Frontier, pg.41
Gauntlgrym is a large underground city built by the Dwarves of Delzoun for men in the early years of an amicable existence of dwarves, elves, and men in the North (long before the Falen Kingdom). It is now abandoned and holds great riches. All who have heard the ballads and tales of bards in the North know this, but the location of this potential tresure-trove is long lost. Even dwarves only know that it lies north of the Desarin and its tributaries, near the valley of Khedrun.
The Valley of Khedrun is above Lurkwood, well east of Mirabar. Also -
quote:
Posted by The Hooded One in Ed's Scroll, Nov. 2010
Hi, Markustay! Ed is incommunicado right now, with family visiting (and then he's off to a convention tomorrow and won't be back until late Sunday), but from my notes I can tell you that:
duin = stone, pebble, fragment (natural, or rather, not chipped off or sculpted by a dwarf)
druin = boulder, large standing stone (again, natural, not a cairn or monument or sculpted-in-place object), an erratic (boulder sitting in a spot that doesn't "fit" with surrounding terrain), small crag or tor
druir = mountain (there are other words for specific sorts of mountains, inhabited-by-dwarves mountains, dragonlair mountains, etc such as "-tar" being the mountain suffix that referred to the great mountain north of the Moonsea, Ghaethluntar, inhabited by the flind.)
grym = one of the archaic suffixes for a (subterranean, of course) dwarven city (as seen in Ed's creation "Gauntulgrym" or "Gauntlgrym" . . . in this case, a trademoot city not just suited to dwarves and smaller inhabitants)
Accents, mine. A '-grym' is not a city of dwarves, it is a city built by dwarves for others.
Just saying... the novel with that title ain't about THAT place... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2012 00:43:06 |
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