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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 18:48:44
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| Ed's Gauntlgrym isn't just a reference, it was adventured in by the Knights of Myth Drannor in his campaign. Having them overwritten by Drizzt would be more than ironic. This is also a sore point because when TSR decided not to publish Ed's many existing dungeons, with the exception of a few levels of Undermountain and the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar, they turned down the chance to bed the Realms on adventure material the way the World of Greyhawk had been, and counterbalance the influence of the novels and advancing timeline. They even went so far as to commission a spurious Dungeon of Death and allow Bioware to create a substitute Durlag's Tower -- this then compounded with the Gauntlgrym confusion. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 20:53:00
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Not only was Gauntlgrym designed as human city in the Savage Frontier, this fact was repeated again in Lost Empires of Faerûn. The Reader's Guide to Drizzt confuses the issue a bit by saying the city was built for humans, but then calls it a dwarven hold.
Not only was it incorrect to label Gauntlgrym a dwarven city, they went one step further and declared it to be the capital of ancient Delzoun! Which of course is ludicrous, since Delzoun was centered far to the east beneath the Rauvin Mountains.
When I brought these continuity issues up during the design of the Neverwinter sourcebook, I was told it couldn't be changed. The 4E FRCG said Gauntlgrym was a dwarven city, and that was final. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
Edited by - Brian R. James on 01 Feb 2012 20:53:41 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 21:50:21
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Nevermind - I erased most of my post. I don't want us going backwards. I'm just gonna leave this one thing....
I will NEVER accept that imposter as Gauntlgrym. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2012 22:54:23 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 22:51:14
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So... it would seem that the current designers (not you BRJ, but those with final editorial control) are still pretty much doing exactly what they want rather than listening to good advice from even a freelancer who is well-grounded in historical lore (BRJ).
And I'm supposed to be optimistic?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:33:04
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@Paizo: That's kind of a false analogy, MT. Golarion has only been around for a couple of years now. It hasn't had nearly as much development, nor nearly as many designers working nearly as long in it. Check back in twenty-five years or so, and we'll see discuss whether Golarion has never had any contradictions. 
@Faraer: As wonderful as that would be, to see Ed's dungeon mapped into the Realms with strict accuracy, I can see why they wouldn't do that. Dungeons, characters, stories, etc., that we create for our home games don't always translate super well into an IP. Also, there's a certain value to having Ed's creations remain in Ed's private keeping. I know I like publishing all kinds of stuff, but some of my stuff is very personal and I'd feel sad to see it leave.
Also, speaking as a professional author and designer, not everything that I create is good or something I'm proud of. This is not to say that Ed doesn't sweat liquid gold--I'm just saying that's kind of a lot of pressure to put him under.
@Gauntlgrym: Look, I appreciate that this is a sore point--and for good reason. And I'm not saying that the designers didn't royally screw this up (because they totally did). What I'm trying to do is find a way past this whole kerfuffle.
I see all the conflicting information about Gauntlgrym as a boon to the setting, rather than a hindrance. That is, "Gauntlgrym was built for dwarves," "no, for humans BY dwarves," "oh, and it lies there," "no here!", etc. This is supposed to be a legendary secret, and legendary secrets are surrounded by corrupt information, old wives tales, and outright lies.
(I always get a kick out of remembering all the people who told me Fox-at-Twilight didn't make sense, because the things she would say about herself were contradictory. To which I could only respond, "that's because she's a compulsive liar.")
In light of that, I do find it a little strange that we're talking about a secret, lost dungeon/ruin as though it were completely canonically established exactly what and where it is. You really don't think there's room for doubt? The reference MT posted ("Even dwarves only know that it lies north of the Desarin and its tributaries, near the valley of Khedrun.") doesn't even say definitively that that's where Gauntlgrym is, only that the noted location has something to do with it. Maybe that's the only surface connection the dwarves knew of, and you still had to travel days underground to find Gauntlgrym. The Halls of Moria weren't right next to the entrance beneath the mountain, after all. It requires a major suspension of disbelief to think that the dwarves would just put their city right there, where anyone can easily get to it, rather than requiring would-be invaders to run the gauntlet through a hundred or more miles of traps, fortifications, switch-backs, etc.
I'm not saying this *is* the case, I'm just offering it as a possible way of connecting the lore.
Maybe the dwarves noted in the citation are simply wrong. Maybe what they thought was Gauntlgrym was another city entirely. (Gauntlegrym, maybe--which sounds the same but has an entirely different meaning.) Who knows?
I myself prefer the two Gauntlgryms explanation. In my concept, the original Gauntlgrym was indeed a Delzoun city (I don't think it was the capitol--those were just embellished legends forged thereafter). It was a city of such fabled beauty and majesty that the dwarves were the envy of all civilized races, though its actual location was a secret kept by the dwarves to stave off jealous rivals. To build an alliance with their neighbors in the North, they built a "lesser" Gauntlgrym elsewhere for the humans--a smaller city that would honor the trappings of the original but be a great city unto its own. In the fall of the dwarven civilization, both cities were lost, as was the story of their founding and original purpose. Of course both cities would be called "Gauntlgrym," because they were both so christened. One is a human city built by the dwarves as a gesture of alliance, and another is an actual legendary dwarven stronghold. Indeed, part of the idea here was to foster the impression that this new, smaller Gauntlgrym was THE Gauntlgrym, which would keep the original forever safe.
I place the original Gauntlgrym near Neverwinter (the subject of RAS's novel of the same name) and the "younger sister" Gauntlgrym about where it is cited as being in the Savage Frontier sourcebook (somewhat removed as I suggested before, requiring a substantial journey underground to get to it, short of using portals and the like).
The point about "-grym" being a suffix that means a trademoot for dwarves is an excellent point. It's entirely possible the original Gauntlgrym was not named that at all, but was instead something like "Gauntulgar." Then the younger version was named "Gauntlgrym" because it wasn't just built for dwarves. The younger city (appropriately called "Gauntlgrym") was the one discovered first (as of the Savage Frontier sourcebook), and the name that spread across the legends of the north was "Gauntlgrym." Regardless of whether this was its original name, that's what the dwarves of the North call it now--both of the cities, that is. They are drawn, however, not to the lesser Gauntlgrym, but to the original Gauntulgar, which was originally a massive city for their people alone.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
So... it would seem that the current designers (not you BRJ, but those with final editorial control) are still pretty much doing exactly what they want rather than listening to good advice from even a freelancer who is well-grounded in historical lore (BRJ).
And I'm supposed to be optimistic?
Yes, because that was two years ago, under different leadership. I think it's much more fair to give the current creative team a chance, rather than blaming them for the mistakes of the past.
This is not to say we shouldn't point out past failings, however--refusing to acknowledge or learn from one's mistakes only dooms one to repeat those very mistakes.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 02 Feb 2012 00:40:46 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I should like an explanation for how Halruaa's detonation caused destruction sufficient to destroy a land bridge on the other side of a nearly impassible wall of mountains, and yet still left buildings standing at ground zero.
The Realms equivalent of a neutron bomb?  |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:56:24
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Sorry about all of that Erik. I shouldn't have even brought it up at this time.
But map glitches I find personally irksome. I spend quite a long time placing things precisely... I don't like having them shuffled around.
Regardless, I could have figured there were two (I was going to do that myself, and decided I couldn't bring myself to), but we all know it for what it really is.
Anyhow, you are quite right - Its a 'brave new world' and all of that (or 'brave old world' - whichever the case may be.) "The King is dead... long live the king!"
And FR is King. 
EDIT: @Wooly - the Spellwave destabilized localized magical fields (which existed all over Halruaa, much like micro-mythals). The ensuing succession of concussions set-off vibrations throughout the strata and activated the long-dormant Super-volcano that occupied the arm of the peninsula (the entire region was geothermally unstable). Ergo, although the plague-caused detonations destroyed much within Halruaa-proper, the real damage was done by the aftershocks, which ran along a fault line.
And just like the 'atomic bomb' analogy used, the Arcane fallout proceeded to kill-off (or worse!) more of Halruaa's population then the actual explosions. The lucky ones died right away... adventurers traveling through the area today try not to look too closely at the twisted shapes that slither through the water-choked ruins. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2012 01:13:34 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 01:33:17
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You know, I like Erik's explanation re: Gauntlgrym. It feels right.
Now I fully realize there were issues with it, design-wise (maps, etc.). But even in the new NWCS and Salvatore's latest books, it's not fully clear exactly what was found. Nor was it perfectly detailed in past lore exactly what it was.
Such a magnificent capital city would undoubtedly have outposts and the like, even satellite communities and affiliated trading communities. Who is to say, perhaps Drizzt and Bruenor found one of those?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 02:07:32
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Except that Delzoun was located on the opposite side of The North. If it was a minor placement gaff, I doubt Brian would have tried to get it corrected. Their port city (Ascore) was on the edge of the Narrow Sea, in the North-west corner of Anauroch - why would they have needed anything like that if they were anywhere near the coast?
Crazy dwarves lived on the coast - blame that atrocity on them.
And I really need to let this go now..... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36834 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 04:49:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sorry about all of that Erik. I shouldn't have even brought it up at this time.
But map glitches I find personally irksome. I spend quite a long time placing things precisely... I don't like having them shuffled around.
Regardless, I could have figured there were two (I was going to do that myself, and decided I couldn't bring myself to), but we all know it for what it really is.
Anyhow, you are quite right - Its a 'brave new world' and all of that (or 'brave old world' - whichever the case may be.) "The King is dead... long live the king!"
And FR is King.
EDIT: @Wooly - the Spellwave destabilized localized magical fields (which existed all over Halruaa, much like micro-mythals). The ensuing succession of concussions set-off vibrations throughout the strata and activated the long-dormant Super-volcano that occupied the arm of the peninsula (the entire region was geothermally unstable). Ergo, although the plague-caused detonations destroyed much within Halruaa-proper, the real damage was done by the aftershocks, which ran along a fault line.
And just like the 'atomic bomb' analogy used, the Arcane fallout proceeded to kill-off (or worse!) more of Halruaa's population then the actual explosions. The lucky ones died right away... adventurers traveling through the area today try not to look too closely at the twisted shapes that slither through the water-choked ruins.
That still doesn't explain how Halruaa itself escaped the same level of destruction. It's where everything went boom. I can not think of any logical way to have an explosion happen at point X, leaving that point relatively unharmed, but still causing massive destruction on the other side of an impassible barrier. Actually, I have a really hard time with there even being that much of an effect on the other side of the wall of mountains -- the fact that Halruaa is relatively intact just makes it more implausible.
For the level of destruction necessary to submerge a very large amount of land, I'd expect the neighboring vicinities to also have suffered catastrophic damage. With that much damage on the other side of the mountains, I'd expect Halruaa to have been reduced to a smoking crater, now filled with sea water from being well below sea level. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 06:00:56
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It's magic!
Or ...er... Un-magic...
I always felt one of the good unused plots in Halruaa of the 3e era was the growing faction of Shadow Weave users. A Halruaa civil war would have been interesting, dredging up ancient feuds more than magic.
The dark magic Halruaan (wider than just Shadow Weave users, giving nominal nods to Shar and various other entities) feel they should clean house and march up to set Netheril straight. The regular Halruaans feel that's a course towards a second fall of Netherese culture, their own this time.
I think most of the recent RSEs, including the Spellplague but also many of the 3E era ones were missing a true conflict. Sure they had big bangs and flashy effects, but there's no underlying theme. Karsus's Folly, the Sundering, the destruction of Imaskar, and the Fall of Myth Drannor are tied to very 'human' mistakes and the tragedy of those mistaken choices and decisions.
What do we get now?
- Spellplague: Cyric Kills, Mystra Dies. Big Boom, The End. what's the point. Cyric is the god of murder, he kills because the script said so, he's a god, he's not mortal. Mystra is the goddess of ... dying again...
- Year of Dragons: Novel character shenanigans, kill a major baddie of the setting. Artifacts makes dragons go crazy. MacGuffin time!
- The Demonweb plot: Evil spider goddess seeking MOAR Powah, har, har, har.
- Return of Shade: Evil Shadowy mega-wizards come back to seek... world domination. Okay. You had a thousand years to do so, was it that far down on your To Do list?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 06:19:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
- Return of Shade: Evil Shadowy mega-wizards come back to seek... world domination. Okay. You had a thousand years to do so, was it that far down on your To Do list?
And amazingly, within a couple of years, the other ancient, DEAD empire also came back, after even more thousands of years. Can you imagine that pure coincidence in timing?
And then a whole planet returned! 
I think Toril needs a 'Return Policy'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 06:42:41
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Green vs. Silver Moon:
I'm against killing of the 'Selunites' because an illusion failed. I like the idea of those xenophobic people living on an actually green moon hidden away from Faerun. The idea that the celestrial body of the one divine sister who fought for creation is actually habitable instead of dead and barren is charming in itself, at least to me.
But as I said, to me it's rather easy to repair, if we found the new patron of the 'repaired' divine illusion.
To me the obvious choice would be Selûne, who could now also act as the patron of the Selunites, now that Leira is dead and Cyric under lock and key.
Best wishes
Lirdolin |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 06:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
- Return of Shade: Evil Shadowy mega-wizards come back to seek... world domination. Okay. You had a thousand years to do so, was it that far down on your To Do list?
And amazingly, within a couple of years, the other ancient, DEAD empire also came back, after even more thousands of years. Can you imagine that pure coincidence in timing?
And then a whole planet returned!
I think Toril needs a 'Return Policy'.
As in, "We do not accept returns, even if you have your proof of past existence"? That kind of thing might doom the idea of a timeline split or retcon/reboot (of which, I'd much rather see the former; we're getting a look at Ed's Realms to substitute for the latter at this point). |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 06:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Ed's Gauntlgrym isn't just a reference, it was adventured in by the Knights of Myth Drannor in his campaign. Having them overwritten by Drizzt would be more than ironic. This is also a sore point because when TSR decided not to publish Ed's many existing dungeons, with the exception of a few levels of Undermountain and the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar, they turned down the chance to bed the Realms on adventure material the way the World of Greyhawk had been, and counterbalance the influence of the novels and advancing timeline. They even went so far as to commission a spurious Dungeon of Death and allow Bioware to create a substitute Durlag's Tower -- this then compounded with the Gauntlgrym confusion.
I'm really hoping we get to see all of Ed's dungeons in all their glory with future volumes of Elminster's Forgotten Realms... including the complete Haunted Halls with the deleted Spellplague references. On which note, I'm working on extending the Roll of Years up to 2000 DR and further, now that we have a name for DR 2012 (the Year of Scribes Returning); DR 2000 will be the Year of the Black Star, in which some sort of Spellplague will actually happen, but it won't be a coastline-redefining event; beyond that, I haven't thought about it much. I was going to make DR 2012 the Year of the Black Star, re: Mayan calendar and all that, but I like this better. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 07:12:24
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If the main Gauntlgrym was a major secretive dwarf hold, I could see them creating the human version up north to throw off its real location like you said and it could have likely served as the trading point for their crafts to keep greedy eyes and fell hands away from the real realm. Or the human city version was their surface trade post, with the 100's of miles of reinforced corridors and battle ready routes shaped by the dwarves leading to the main underground city near Neverwinter. Most of the extinctions of the dwarven kingdoms have tales of valiant rearguard or final battle attempts, there really isn't anything with this place. So maybe their secret hidey hole, while defensive, provided no means of ready escape and the entire city was butchered when it fell. Well, more or less.
I'm curious to know how a person would build lore up around a dwarf city that lived with orcs as depicted in one of R.A.s books. I'm fine with new lore, but man how do you pull that off? And it would have to be ANCIENT i bet. I suppose it could have been a one of a kind type deal city too. But if there was a time where dwarves, elves, and orcs were not at war, what would we be looking at? Prior to the arrival of the elves from Faerie I'm guessing? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 15:40:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That still doesn't explain how Halruaa... [blue]<snip>[/blue
I realize its just bad logic (Halruaa blowing up, and the countries next door taking all the damge), but this is the "lets fix it" thread, and that was the best I could come up with; the series of explosions set-off a unique sub-sonic frequency which activated the fault line.
I also believe that none of the other southern countries were left unscathed - I think large parts of Luiren were underwater for years, and all the coastal cities of the Dambrath (where most of the Crinti lived) got destroyed (thus explaining both the changes in halflings and the disappearance of the Crinti)
Or... thats where Ss'inthee'ssaree was located - perhaps an ancient Sarrukh artifact detonated.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
- Return of Shade: Evil Shadowy mega-wizards come back to seek... world domination. Okay. You had a thousand years to do so, was it that far down on your To Do list?
OMG! Sage is a Shade! 
How'd I miss that one the first time I quoted that? .
Or Netherese, or Imaskari, etc... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2012 15:57:00 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 15:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I'm curious to know how a person would build lore up around a dwarf city that lived with orcs as depicted in one of R.A.s books. I'm fine with new lore, but man how do you pull that off? And it would have to be ANCIENT i bet. I suppose it could have been a one of a kind type deal city too. But if there was a time where dwarves, elves, and orcs were not at war, what would we be looking at? Prior to the arrival of the elves from Faerie I'm guessing?
I hesitate to comment on that, since it's obvious Bob's doing something, and I would like to be surprised.
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
Green vs. Silver Moon:
I'm against killing of the 'Selunites' because an illusion failed. I like the idea of those xenophobic people living on an actually green moon hidden away from Faerun. The idea that the celestrial body of the one divine sister who fought for creation is actually habitable instead of dead and barren is charming in itself, at least to me.
But as I said, to me it's rather easy to repair, if we found the new patron of the 'repaired' divine illusion.
To me the obvious choice would be Selûne, who could now also act as the patron of the Selunites, now that Leira is dead and Cyric under lock and key.
What I'd prefer is to have the moon group having *vanished*--no one actually knows what happened to them, after communication was severed. I do think they should still exist, and I think they should have become more xenophobic than before. The Cult of the True Moon, perhaps?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - the Spellwave destabilized localized magical fields (which existed all over Halruaa, much like micro-mythals). The ensuing succession of concussions set-off vibrations throughout the strata and activated the long-dormant Super-volcano that occupied the arm of the peninsula (the entire region was geothermally unstable). Ergo, although the plague-caused detonations destroyed much within Halruaa-proper, the real damage was done by the aftershocks, which ran along a fault line.
And just like the 'atomic bomb' analogy used, the Arcane fallout proceeded to kill-off (or worse!) more of Halruaa's population then the actual explosions. The lucky ones died right away... adventurers traveling through the area today try not to look too closely at the twisted shapes that slither through the water-choked ruins.
That still doesn't explain how Halruaa itself escaped the same level of destruction. It's where everything went boom. I can not think of any logical way to have an explosion happen at point X, leaving that point relatively unharmed, but still causing massive destruction on the other side of an impassible barrier. Actually, I have a really hard time with there even being that much of an effect on the other side of the wall of mountains -- the fact that Halruaa is relatively intact just makes it more implausible.
For the level of destruction necessary to submerge a very large amount of land, I'd expect the neighboring vicinities to also have suffered catastrophic damage. With that much damage on the other side of the mountains, I'd expect Halruaa to have been reduced to a smoking crater, now filled with sea water from being well below sea level.
Emphasis mine.
As the Spellplague was happening, and the explosion was building up in Halruaa, an archmage by the name of Rue Pertyn (who was rumored to keep a miniature giant space hamster as a familiar, a creature he had adopted from a certain crazy barbarian) attempted to flee the chaos through use of a portal or teleportation spell (or perhaps it was even a contingency). It was too late, however, for he was already infected with the Spellplague, and his attempt to get away only carried the plague past the otherwise impenetrable barrier. Once in the outside area, it went off and had much the same effect.
Contagion style.
How's that for a plausible explanation?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 16:21:04
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*meh* - see my second scenario above (I edited my last post) - it is a FAR simpler explanation (Occam's Razor); The Spellplague intensified around areas of 'big magic' (that weren't protected by a Mythal/Mythalar). Give the Scaled Ones an uber-artifact, and your done (and also create a new mystery - what was it that they were holding onto?)
The 'Orc'Dwarf' city - although I am very intrigued by it, the guy really needs to learn Realms naming conventions (or just ask Ed for one - I'm sure he has his phone number). Baffenburg? REALLY?
I know what I'd do with the place (use the Ondonti and/or Sharakim), but I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as interesting (if we ever do find out more). The man has an aversion to using ANYTHING created by someone else (unless he tends to change it completely).
So much potential... {sigh}
Bark @the Moon: IF the planetary bodies somehow represent the actual 'gods' (the old ones), then we might surmise that the Leirans (who may have secretly been Sharans after the ToT) could have been like an 'infection'. She's probably still pissed her moon got blowded-up.
If you want it to be like the lore says, and have them all 'goody goody', then say they got shunted into the Feywild (where they still run their resort, but now it caters to the planes instead of Spelljammers). If you prefer something a bit 'darker' (which I find more useful as a DM), then go with that they are now living in the tunnels beneath the surface, and have become an insanely xenophobic, Morlock-like people (they think the Spellplague was a Torillian attack on them). Throw in a few 'ancient, hidden gates' around Faerûn, and you've got yourself a damn fine mega-dungeon to go and explore (the surface area is now unbreathable and barren, except for the dead cities... which are filled with all sorts of SJ nasties).
I never liked the 'Moon folk' (as is), and any change would be for the best. Without better connectivity, the place is useless (like Maztica, or returned Abeir for that matter). Ed had his world filled with gates for a reason - long distances make for boring adventures. The Gates help 'shrink' the world, and make it more fun. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2012 16:25:02 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 16:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
Green vs. Silver Moon:
I'm against killing of the 'Selunites' because an illusion failed. I like the idea of those xenophobic people living on an actually green moon hidden away from Faerun. The idea that the celestrial body of the one divine sister who fought for creation is actually habitable instead of dead and barren is charming in itself, at least to me.
But as I said, to me it's rather easy to repair, if we found the new patron of the 'repaired' divine illusion.
To me the obvious choice would be Selûne, who could now also act as the patron of the Selunites, now that Leira is dead and Cyric under lock and key.
Best wishes
Lirdolin
This explanation is so simple....and it works. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 16:32:42
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We are 13 pages into the contest! And I think it would help to remind scribes about the rules:
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Would you like to help create some Realmslore (i.e., the very purpose of Candlekeep)?
Would you like to be immortalized/eviscerated in fiction (probably both)?
Well in that case, this is the CONTEST for you!
A thought occurred to me to have a contest, crafting Realmslore in real time to stitch the divided pieces of the Realms back together. None of it is canonical, of course, though it certainly *could* end up that way--the point here is to demonstrate that the Realms *can* be brought back together into a single canon that serves everyone.
This grows out of my "One Canon, One Story, One Realms" thread, which in turn reflects my thoughts on an all-inclusive Realms for 5e. Some of this is based on real design I know is going on, but much of it is just my opinion on how I think the Realms might be presented in the new edition. A vision of the Realms to bring everything and everyone together.
So without further ado:
Forgotten Realms Lore Reconciliation Contest
Inspired by my "One Canon, One Story, One Realms" concept, I would like to put together ways in which the canon *connects* between 3e and 4e.
There are a lot of doubters who say it can't be done--that 4e represents such a huge departure from FR canon that bridging the gap is not possible. But I say thee NAY--we will determine such connections, and thereby prove the possibility of reconciling every era of the Realms, such as I'm hoping 5e will do.
Rules:
1) Give me a canon issue (i.e. destruction of Halruaa, do something with the Spellplague, etc.), and I will answer it in a way that I think *works,* bridges the gap between 3e and 4e, and is true to the Realms (and hope you do too!).
2) Give me some time to do it--I'm a busy guy and will only ADMIT DEFEAT when I'm really stumped, not because I don't have time.
3) If I'm stumped, you WIN the contest and get a CHARACTER OF YOUR VERY OWN(!) in a forthcoming Erik Scott de Bie FR novel (I mean, assuming there ARE more coming). The contest does, of course, keep going, and there can be multiple winners.
(Caveat: It is almost certain that your character will appear for at most one page and be horribly killed by the hero/villain, but hey, you're still in the book!)
4) Nothing I say here is actually canonical--it's just a hypothetical connection. Don't expect WotC to actually do any of these suggestions (though who knows?)
5) We're keeping this positive and fun. If you say certain key phrases, like "4e cannot be reconciled" or "reboot" or "retcon," you are automatically disqualified from the thread.
6) Anyone else (fans/authors/designers) can propose ideas as well--canonical questions or answers. This isn't just the Erik Scott de Bie show.
7) Sage, Wooly, and THO (and Ed, through her) have agreed to serve as judges regarding my answers. (Obligatory American Idol Reference: I think this makes Wooly, as seemingly the least 4e-"happy" of the bunch, Simon.)
Consider them like Dungeon Masters hearing the suggestion of one of their players, with the question put to them "could I use this lore in my game?" If they reject an answer, I (or whoever produced it) get a chance to come up with something else, or admit defeat.
The judges are themselves free to pose Realmslore challenges or offer solutions to advanced Realmslore issues.
8) Since I *am* a FR author and privy to certain info you are not, if I say "I can't talk about it" or "NDA," that counts as a non-challenge. For instance, "Do something about Mystra!" is clearly Ed's territory and covered under NDA. I would hesitate to advance a solution to something I know is currently being worked on. Same goes for my own books (though I'll gladly point out that I'm working on it). Please respect this restriction!
And . . . go!
Cheers
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 16:52:33
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I've always viewed the destruction in Halruaa as a result of Azuth's--and not Mystra's--demise.
To me Halruaa seemed like a place where Azuth's worship was strong. I think Halruaa would have survived the Spellplague had not Azuth perished at the hands of Asmodeus.
I tend to think Asmodeus slew Azuth for his power, but also as a means of destroying his worshipers in all the Realms so that Azuth might not be called back into existence through any resurgence of his faith.
I imagine Asmodeus channeling his and Azuth's energy back through Azuth's dying form and into Azuth's faithful; this energy rides on top of and mingles with the Spellplague, finding its way to every spellbook, magic item, permanent and lingering spell effect, etc...created by anyone in Halruaa who was a priest of Azuth or took Azuth as his or her patron deity.
The result is widespread, catastrophic, complete devastation.
Asmodeus then called out in the voice of Azuth to the numerous, newly dead faithful. They came to him willingly and he used them to unleash the collected, raw power of their soul stuff to rend the Abyss from the planes and hurl it into the Elemental Chaos. This did not destroy the Abyss as he'd hoped, but it did throw those damned demons for a loop.
My 2 coppers, at any rate. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 02 Feb 2012 16:54:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 17:37:41
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Good Points Jeremy.
@Bakra: {we don't have a 'razz' smiley'}
Just kidding, dude. Look at the bright side - I haven't seen this much 'energy' around these forums (and FR) in a LONG time. We have long-lost scribes crawling out of the woodwork!
We really need to clean behind the woodwork more often....
Another Moon Suggestion: Figure I'd throw up a third posibility, although this one will likely be unpopular with some folks.
At the precise moment the illusion dropped (when Mystra died and the Weave failed), Ao created a second moon, and placed the original in orbit around Abeir. The Selunites (Lierans) now exist in the 'alternate Realms' (which is still technically inside of Realmspace, just out-of-sync with it). So now old moon/new moon have the same exact relationship as Abeir/Torl. Not my favorite method of handling it, but it could work for some.
"The Long Night of the Blue Death was a time of chaos and confusion. Some folk even say that the moon actually shifted in the sky! Most scholars, however, attribute this to the panic and mass hysteria." |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2012 17:38:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36834 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Emphasis mine.
As the Spellplague was happening, and the explosion was building up in Halruaa, an archmage by the name of Rue Pertyn (who was rumored to keep a miniature giant space hamster as a familiar, a creature he had adopted from a certain crazy barbarian) attempted to flee the chaos through use of a portal or teleportation spell (or perhaps it was even a contingency). It was too late, however, for he was already infected with the Spellplague, and his attempt to get away only carried the plague past the otherwise impenetrable barrier. Once in the outside area, it went off and had much the same effect.
Contagion style.
How's that for a plausible explanation?
Cheers
I like the name... But this explanation doesn't work for me. It seems unlikely that any one gate or teleport could have carried such a wide, regional effect with it (or channelled it elsewhere). It'd be kinda like having a simple concrete drainage pipe somehow carry most of the blast from a nuke (or Bigby's Crushing Tactical Nuke) away from the site of the explosion.
However, Mark's note about an ancient sarrukh city in the area provides some food for thought... Perhaps this city was something of a magical warehouse, and/or the site of some sort of proto-mythal, and the Spellplague caused this to detonate. This explosion was concurrent with the explosion in Halruaa, but otherwise unrelated -- that would give the impression of it being a single event, but would also explain how Halruaa was not affected by the same devastation.
That explanation works better for me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:27:31
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I don't think we're understanding what I'm saying. Also, MT, I'm not sure I see how your solution is *simpler* than mine--I think yours is much more complicated.
This archmage gets infected with Spellplague. He either goes through a portal of his own accord, or he dies from the spellplague and his contingency goes off, whisking him past the barrier. The Spellplague explodes from his body to infect this new area, where it starts blowing things up willy-nilly. (Which is logical, since it's the same strain of the Spellplague that had been affecting Halruaa.) It doesn't go through a pipeline or conduit or something (which I agree would be weird)--it's carried over by this archmage, who's like a walking bomb.
The contagion/outbreak example here is, I think, pretty obvious. The situation is similar to a guy escaping quarantine (where everyone inside dies horribly) and spreading some horrendous plague to the outside world.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36834 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 20:01:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I don't think we're understanding what I'm saying. Also, MT, I'm not sure I see how your solution is *simpler* than mine--I think yours is much more complicated.
This archmage gets infected with Spellplague. He either goes through a portal of his own accord, or he dies from the spellplague and his contingency goes off, whisking him past the barrier. The Spellplague explodes from his body to infect this new area, where it starts blowing things up willy-nilly. (Which is logical, since it's the same strain of the Spellplague that had been affecting Halruaa.) It doesn't go through a pipeline or conduit or something (which I agree would be weird)--it's carried over by this archmage, who's like a walking bomb.
The contagion/outbreak example here is, I think, pretty obvious. The situation is similar to a guy escaping quarantine (where everyone inside dies horribly) and spreading some horrendous plague to the outside world.
Cheers
I think my explanation is the simplest. We know the Spellplague was affecting multiple areas at once -- so there's no need for a carrier, be it a person or a faultline. Also, my idea offers an explanation for why ground zero didn't suffer the same devastation -- because it wasn't ground zero. If there are concurrent events, we also don't need to explain how the explosion jumped a mountain range and came back down (because logically, the force of the blast would be channelled upward). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Feb 2012 20:03:32 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 20:45:38
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Yes, that is indeed a simpler solution.
I understand the Spellplague as being the Weave, captured/channeled in the various items and active spells being used at the time. Spellplague exploded out of these items, so of course it would hit mostly areas where there were the most spells/items being used at a particular time. In some places, people did better fending it off than others. I suspect it generally flowed around the Mythals because the Weave was only a conduit to build those initially, not an active part of their continued existence. It didn't affect Shade that much because it wasn't the Shadow Weave bursting that did all the damage--that just decayed and fell apart gradually without its bright sister Weave to support it.
I also think the lingering pockets of Spellplague still around in the setting are the remains of the Weave, just waiting to be stitched back together. But I don't want to go into it, since this is getting into NDA territory.
Something will happen with the Spellplague--that seems obvious. And I wouldn't want to speculate too much about its treatment/cure.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 21:34:13
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The Spellplague, as far as I can tell but I'm not well versed in 4E Realms, was described more like a Weave Bomb than a biological plague.
An actual fantasy plague might have been fun.
The Zombul: "Hungry ... for ... Red Wizard"
Zombielminster: "Magic, mmm..." :: nom nom nom ::
You thought the Chosen disrupted your adventures before! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 00:05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
- Return of Shade: Evil Shadowy mega-wizards come back to seek... world domination. Okay. You had a thousand years to do so, was it that far down on your To Do list?
A thousand years is a blink of an eye for immortals.
Melegaunt had to first learn the phaerimm's ways to use them to Shade's advantage. And we're talking about an alien race so powerful and wise and part of the cause of the fall of their once great empire. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 01:03:32
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A blink of an eye for immortals, but the mortal world doesn't care. As the elves have realized at times, they might be standing still, but the current of mortals can easily wash them away. Rock and water.
The delay isn't the main point, which is they have few other major traits other than coming back doing the imperial march, but it took them a long time to get going on their one big goal. Then they quickly fell into the usual keystone cops routine. |
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