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Originally posted by Matt James

Erik, as always, I'm with you. We'll continue doing our part. I never gave up on the Forgotten Realms.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Basically, help me build a single, sweeping, panoramic Realms that is stronger and more vibrant than ever before. One Canon, One Story, One Realms

Before you ask, yes, I've read the other threads, and I think this one is sufficiently *different* from those to have some value as a thread. I also felt there were a lot of threads out there that said "how would you reboot it?" or "how would you change it?" being answered by "reboot!" as though it's just that easy.

The concept of this thread is to get at those canonical/design hobgoblins that need to be addressed in order to move forward with a Realms that answers all concerns, serves all eras, and makes everyone (or at least most) happy.

This is not me asking "what would you change?" or "how would you reboot?"

This is me asking "what would you do to make things line up?"

(That said, Mods, please review, and let me know if you think this thread is redundant.)

The Concept:

So let's assume that WotC, in their allegedly "modular" approach to 5e FR, doesn't reboot or retcon anything but instead provides a series of "fixes" to the Realms and opens up design to multiple eras (pre-ToT, pre-Spellplague, post-Spellplague).

Basically, we're assuming WotC does what I'm suggesting on my website: How to make 5e FR the greatest of all possible worlds

The Work:

What would you do? How would you address issues that need to be addressed in a way that does not compromise the lore that's been built up over the last thirty years?

The Nitty-Gritty:

I've listed some ideas below, but I'd like to hear from more folks about what they would do as well:

1. Multiple Eras

Design products that are open to use with any edition or era you want should include baseline design for most of the book (70%) with a section for lore added-on to support any particular era (10% for each of three eras).

So for instance, a CORMYR sourcebook will contain 70% lore about the kingdom of Cormyr's lands, political structure, history, nobility, armies, etc., etc., everything you need to know to build a campaign there for any timeline, and 30% lore for three different eras in Cormyr's history (10% each): basically, a plug-in to run Cormyr in that particular era.

What eras, you ask?

1. Age of Legends, 1340s-1358 (grounded in the OGB, stopping just before the Time of Troubles): The classic era of Ed's original Realms. And since this book is Cormyr, we get to learn about his original canon set in the Forest Kingdom.

2. Age of Upheaval, 1368-1384 (2e-3e, stopping just before the Spellplague): Ten years after the Time of Troubles, the Realms has begun to rebuild itself, in time for fresh perils to befall. In Cormyr, we learn about the Fall of Azoun, the establishment of Alusair's court, and the cold war with Sembia.

3. Age of Heroes, 1470-1480s (4e, 100 years after the Spellplague): A hundred years after the cataclysm of the Blue Fire, the Realms has changed in some ways and held true in many others. With many of its legendary champions receding into the shadows, the Realms has never needed heroes more. In Cormyr, we see the court of King Foril, the enduring schemers seeking to destroy the weakening Obarskyr family, and a little of Elminster's activities in the recent novels.

(We could add a 4th option: Age of Change, 1385-1400, which covers the Wailing Years.)

The concept being that you pick one of these eras in which to run your Cormyr game. If you want to run it at some other point--such as in Cormyr's distant past or somewhere between the eras (such as 1358-1368, or in the big gap after the Spellplague)--you have enough lore in the book to do whatever you want.

(Also note, Brian Cortijo's Cormyr Lineage appears as part of this book, or as a web enhancement to the book.)

We Candlekeep folk might term gameplay in the new, all-eras-open Realms to be CLASSIC Realms (1340-1384), HEROIC Realms (1385+), and LEGENDARY Realms (any other era in Realms history.

Novels are, of course, able and encouraged to explore whatever timelines they want and be set whenever they want. I would suggest the majority of them stick to those three eras, probably mostly in the "current" FR of the "Era of Heroes."

2. Dealing with Spellplague

I think we can all agree that something needs to happen with the Spellplague. It's the elephant in the room that is difficult for any of us to ignore. I would suggest that the 5e FR make an effort (whether through an event or just moving away from it in design) to downplay or otherwise neuter the Spellplague. It was never intended to have such sweeping effects on the 4e FR current setting (i.e. it happened 100 years before and only persists in rare flare-ups), but the perception that the 4e marketing fostered was that it was a big deal.

Moving forward with 5e FR, we have an opportunity to correct that, and I suggest that the Spellplague be relegated to the dusty tomes of history as an event that occurred, had sweeping changes, but has largely been forgotten, like the Time of Troubles, the Return of Shade, Lolth's Silence, etc.

3. Big Canonical Sticking Points

This is mostly a question for the community: What areas of the 4e FR grew too wide from the Realms and need to be reigned in--or more accurately, which aspects of the 4e FR need the most work/detail? How would you do it? What needs to happen to make things "line up" in your opnion?

I think my big, transcending point is the lore-lite timejump. As I see it, the big stumbling block of 4e FR was that we advanced 100 years, NONE OF WHICH were filled in. We were given so little hint as to what happened in that time and told to make it up ourselves. No canonical interpretation of WHY things were muddled up, so it just gave rise to all sorts of online debates. This needs to be corrected, at least in some respect. I don't see a need to fill in all that time, but WotC needs to throw us a bone here.

That said, my top three specific canonical concerns are these:

1) Kingdom of Many-Arrows

I think the orc kingdom is an awesome thing that is sorely in need of detail and development. I think a novel ala Cormyr or Evermeet would be exactly what the doctor ordered, detailing Many-Arrows from its founding shortly before the Spellplague to the present day (1480). I know Bob was working with it for a while--I don't know what future plans he has for it.

2) Halruaa

As I've seen suggested in another thread, we need a novel or a trilogy about the event of Halruaa's demise and about survivors of the nation going elsewhere. It's already in the 4e FR book--the skyship fleet, as it were--but we should carry it through to the reclamation of Halruaa or at least a new founding nation.

Me, I'd put Halruaa together with Lantan and create a high-magic city-state out of the survivors of both countries.

3) The Chosen of Mystra

I don't know about you, but when I think of the Realms, I do indeed think of the Chosen of Mystra as being iconic characters that are key to the setting. 4e FR did some rough things to the Chosen (some of which we know about, some are only implied), and I'd like to see it established what happened to all of them (dammit!). If nothing else, this would allow you to use them (or their legends) in your game without feeling like you were wandering really far afield, or shoe-horning them in.

Other thoughts?

Remember, this thread is specifically about ADDITIVE lore, POSITIVE design (positive meaning addition, as opposed to negative meaning subtraction), and (I hope) healing. It does NOT consider retconning the whole 4e FR (or any other stretch of time) out of existence. It is NOT about a reset and NOT about a reboot. There are plenty of threads for discussing that. In this thread, please focus on the questions I have asked. Thanks!

Cheers

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Originally posted by Matt James


Erik, as always, I'm with you. We'll continue doing our part. I never gave up on the Forgotten Realms.

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Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

Erik, I must ask - does your premise, at all, include the possibility of any sort of alternate future timeline? If the answer is 'no', all well and good, that means we can focus on the 1480 'as it exists' iteration with no further distraction (sort of what I was attempting before you pointed the focus of this thread out to me).

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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin

The Elves/Eladrin Controversy
The Dragonborn/Warforged

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Originally posted by Ayrik
Agreed: the dragonborn and warforged (and also the planetouched races) are cool. I think they should be a part of the Realms, but (like the eladrin) their presence needs to be explained in a palatable manner.

The current lore approach essentially retconned all these races into the Realms, as if nobody had noticed them forever and suddenly large populations were everywhere. Some thoughtful lore placements would make these races more welcome instead of making them seem like some circus freakshow which appeared overnight.

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Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Diffan presented an idea for Warforged that I thought was absolutely brilliant - simply put, they are the product of Gondsmen and other inhabitants of Lantan. He changed my opinion of them virtually overnight from 'Ugh, no way," to "Yeah...that actually works quite well."

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Therise: Well, what I'm doing here in this thread is trying to find those canonical hobgoblins that need to be minimized/neutered in order to remake the Realms in a way that pleases the old guard but doesn't piss off the 4e-fans.

I do think the novels and sourcebooks HAVE been doing this, basically since the release of 4e FR. Not necessarily because 4e came out and we all went *oh snap! must fix!*, but because the gaps in canon aren't really that vast, and the setting IS the same setting it always has been. The 4e FRCG is just really, really bad at showing that (it's a matter of tone, presentation, marketing, etc).

(And there, see? I think I'm doing the other thing you mentioned too--attacking the concept of a divide. I'm not saying there isn't, but rather that there doesn't need to be.)

So what are your canonical hobgoblins, that we intrepid designers-errant might slay them, my lady?

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Originally posted by Ayrik

So halflings are taller ... I don't see it as a big deal. They're just eating better, more vitamins, pseudo-Renaissance medical leeches do wonders. Human populations in RL used to stand shorter too.

[Edit]

But bring back my bearded dwarf women, dammit!

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

For the record, "Grognard" should not be used as a pejorative--I consider that to be a POSITIVE, not a negative. It means that you are set in a particular edition/style of D&D, and you judge everything new based on that. And that's totally fine--grognards have extremely important things to say as we move forward with the next iteration of the game and the setting, just as do people who want to shake things up and innovate.

I would like to push for a line of products that appeals to everyone: grognards, innovators, all new players, etc.

Cheers

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Originally posted by Ayrik

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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin

The Elves/Eladrin Controversy
The Dragonborn/Warforged

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Although I can't agree much with Swiftstrike's opinions on these issues, I do agree that they are canon sticking points which should be ironed out.

Agreed: the 4E version of eladrin is not as terrible as many people claim, although I suspect a fix which appeals to everybody would not be as offhandedly easy as LSA indicates. I think some actual lore detailing the traditional Tel'Quessir races and the eladrin - exactly who and what each is, where they came from, where they live, the relations between them, etc - could iron out these wrinkles in a way which everyone finds agreeable. Simply stating "they came from the Feywild" just isn't enough.

Agreed: the dragonborn and warforged (and also the planetouched races) are cool. I think they should be a part of the Realms, but (like the eladrin) their presence needs to be explained in a palatable manner. Dragonborn, genasi, and perhaps tieflings seem to have been accepted fairly easily.

The current lore approach essentially retconned all these races into the Realms, as if nobody had noticed them forever and suddenly large populations lived everywhere. Some thoughtful lore placements would make these races welcome instead of making them seem like some circus freakshow which invaded overnight. I would recommend some grand tales for each race, similar to those which brought the Shadovar into the Realms.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

Tieflings were a player race in 2E Planescape. But in the Realms these characters would be viewed as fiends, cambions, or some kind of "tainted" evil unfortunates best avoided. A sizeable population of tieflings in 2E Realms would not be realistic, aside perhaps near Ascalhorn and other places with gates and portals to the lower planes.

I don't recall any genasi in 2E. Although some retro-lore has placed a civilization of giants and genasi somewhere East of Netheril, near the Moonsea, the Vast, or the Cold Lands. Genasi would fit quite well in the Zakhara and even in the Oriental Adventures settings, they might fit well in places like Calimshan and Halruaa.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Ayrik

Tieflings were a player race in 2E Planescape. But in the Realms these characters would be viewed as fiends, cambions, or some kind of "tainted" evil unfortunates best avoided. A sizeable population of tieflings in 2E Realms would not be realistic, aside perhaps near Ascalhorn and other places with gates and portals to the lower planes.

I don't recall any genasi in 2E. Although some retro-lore has placed a civilization of giants and genasi somewhere East of Netheril, near the Moonsea, the Vast, or the Cold Lands. Genasi would fit quite well in the Zakhara and even in the Oriental Adventures settings, they might fit well in places like Calimshan and Halruaa.

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I wouldn't expect to find sizable populations anywhere... More uncommon than rare in some areas, yes, but that's it. I prefer the almost-but-not-quite normal appearance of genasi and tieflings as described in 2E and 3E, as well.

I just wanted to point out that genasi and tieflings were not developed for 4E, though the physical appearance of both races changed then, and they became more prominent in 4E.

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Originally posted by arry

I will try and answer your question about ‘grafting new stuff wholesale’ Sage. The new material was put in at the expense of old lore. Old lore was removed, invalidated or retconned to accommodate the new lore. This, to me, made the new lore feel very intrusive and alien.

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