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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 17:29:10
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Ah the human nature to put everyone into some sort of box with a label on it... We (as in humanity) seem unable to pay attention to the differences that make such labeling void.
Guess I'll be a g'nard who does want the Realms to develop and does not have an issue with 00 year time jumps perse, but who still dislikes what has been done to his favorite fantasy world... And maybe I'll take the adolescent comment as a compliment, makes me feel younger. After all, I was already past that particular stage in life when I entered "the world made by Ed."
quote:
(Welcome to the Forgotten Realms... you can pick up your Resurrection Card from the nearly-nekkid lady in thigh-high boots at the bar.)
As a side note, I didn't know that Lady THO was the one handing out the resurecction cards 
As for the thread related and more useful content, I can certainly see some potential in the suggestions Lady Swiftstrike Assassin includes between the flameatory lingo, and which are in the spirit of what Eric seems to be looking for with this thread. The essence of the suggestion on Mystra never having 'died' is how I view the situation as well. And the seven sexy ladies, their time was up, the timeline at current could do with a new bunch (though it would still be nice to read about the Seven Sisters in novels dated in the pre-Spellplague era) |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 17:45:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'll bet you a character in my next novel that I can fix any 3e transition to 4e canonical issue you throw at me. Let's do this!
Um...although I'm all for 'repair 4e for 5e/ Multiple Eras' can everyone participated in this? I know that I would like to see my half-drow sorceress Lirdolin 'Lil' Lacûva make a cameo in your next novel (even more so if it's in Waterdeep  )...so I would try to find something 
Lirdolin |
Edited by - Lirdolin on 19 Jan 2012 17:48:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 17:49:59
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Lady Brace Swiftstrike, do us all a favor: drop the condescending attitude, leave off the insulting posts and commentary, and quit defaming the members of this forum the same way you claim we're defaming the setting. We don't need trolling comments or name-calling. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 17:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by arry
From my perspective the 4e Realms can never be 'fixed' so WotC should just continue with it. Providing lore from earlier periods is made available I'll be content with that.
OK, but WHY don't you think it can be fixed? What about it gives you trouble? (And don't say *everything*--start giving me a list. Pick three things.)
I'll bet you a character in my next novel that I can fix any 3e transition to 4e canonical issue you throw at me. Let's do this!
Cheers
Are you asking for contrary input to your original post?
I mean, I've pretty much avoided posting in this thread because I didn't want to come across as interfering.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 18:07:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Eric, this is a great idea for a scroll; but a scroll which has been attempted on numerous occasions.
In my opinion, you will not find much support for a "One Canon to Rule them All".
The grognards of Candlekeep simply DO NOT WANT the Realms to develop in any significant way; they want the Realms to be the safe place they retreated to in their adolescence. They want the Realms to be the escapist playground they knew and loved when they were adolescents; indeed, they want to be able to 'go home', to return to their adolescence.
Here's my twin coppers on the topic of this scoll.
Sticking Points of Canon
Abeir
Speculation runs rampant; recently, The Sage stated that Abeir exists in the Prime Material Plane of Realmspace. Rich Baker has indicated that Abeir is in a different dimension, though linked via portals and the like, and it's cosmological orientation is not yet defined. Unfortunately, the old grognards know that the 'Abeir' in Abeir-Toril was an add-on for that old glossary or whatever... even though 'we' always called the planet 'Toril'. So while the 'nards can fully accept that the living beings of Toril were generated from pre-created Lizard, Bird and Fish men, the idea that an ancient struggle between gods and titans...er, primordials spurred the Overgod to create a twin planet in a different dimension eons before even the creator races appeared is just *too* much to handle.
I don't know why that is, but it is.
The Elves/Eladrin Controversy
It couldn't be easier to comprehend, but the g'nards refuse. After the Spellplague, the plane of Faerie, called by many sages the Feywilde, became more closely linked to Toril than it had been in ages past. Where before there were only 'fey mounds' 'fey rings' and 'ley lines', now Toril has much enhanced 'access' to faerie. Many elves who lived in Faerie crossed over to Toril, and the 'proximity' of the Feywilde granted the elves who were native to Toril new abilities associated with the Feywilde. The elven diaspora to Evermeet has come to an end, the elves have returned to the mainland, and Evermeet has returned to Arvandor/Olympus/Faerie/the Feywilde. The once waning numbers of elves in Faerun was reinforced with these new refugees, and elvens cities have risen anew.
The Dragonborn/Warforged
People believe that Dragonborn and Warforged are cool. The Realms has room for *lots* of stories. There have been 1/2 Dragons, weredragons, dragonweres, men descended from dragons, dragon elves, ad infinitum, in the Realms since the begining. Not to mention that Bahamut-sponsored-turn-you-into-a-dragonborn thing. A lot of g'nards seem to think that dinosaur-people are kewl, but dragon-people, (in Dungeons and Dragons) are not.
I don't share this belief; I think dinosaur people, hell, dinosaurs in general in a Fantasy game, are lame.
There are *so* many ways to drop Warforged into the Realms. I mean, a ton... Imaskari warriors reawakened? Netherese warriors reawakened? Lantanese constructs? Gondsmen? A Wizard in the highest magical setting of them all just decided to build them?
It's kinda silly to think that in a world where one has a hard time keeping one's toe unstubbed by sentient artifacts, that *ONE* wizard in the past 30,000 years has never anthropomorphized one...
Mystra, the Chosen, and the Weave
Mysta is not Dead. She never died. (Welcome to the Forgotten Realms... you can pick up your Resurrection Card from the nearly-nekkid lady in thigh-high boots at the bar.)
The Weave, and the canon representation of it, is *Extremely* mutable. There are canon references which indicate divine and arcane magic flow through it, there are references which indicate only arcane magic flow through it, and there are reference which indicate it is a Western-Faerun only phenomena.
Who cares! It's a metaphor, it's real, it *IS* Mystra... it *isn't* Mystra... it's the mechanism by which all Life operates... whatever. Just use the Force, Luke.
The Chosen, when used properly, were a great thing. When used poorly, they screwed up the Realms-as-a-place-for-you-and-your-friends-to-pretend-to-save-the-world. Oh, sure, the g'nards may want to roleplay being sheep-herders in High Dale, but the real adolescents want to save the world. Be important. If you know that there are lots of people *way* tougher than you, better equipped for the job, and the WORLD REALLY IS ON THE LINE, why the hell wouldn't Elminster pitch in?
I think that Ed has some cool things in store for the next line of Mystra's Chosen. We shall see. Regardless, the g'nards CRAVE THOSE SILVER-HAIRED SEX GODDESSES... a world without them is utterly offensive to them. Oh! Where would the world be without Alustriel pulling a train from Sundabar to Silverymoon...
-============================================================-
In short, in my opinion, I don't see any type of consensus being formed between the g'nards and a new fan base.
It's been tried.
Those scribes got shouted down for heresy.
And will be shouted down again.
In my opinion.
-=======================================================-
But I wish you luck!
Lady Swiftmouth is not interested in a consensus, because then she couldn't cuase conflict. In my opinion. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 18:36:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by arry
From my perspective the 4e Realms can never be 'fixed' so WotC should just continue with it. Providing lore from earlier periods is made available I'll be content with that.
OK, but WHY don't you think it can be fixed? What about it gives you trouble? (And don't say *everything*--start giving me a list. Pick three things.)
I'll bet you a character in my next novel that I can fix any 3e transition to 4e canonical issue you throw at me. Let's do this!
Are you asking for contrary input to your original post?
I mean, I've pretty much avoided posting in this thread because I didn't want to come across as interfering.
Nope, I'm trying to refocus to EXACTLY what my thread is asking for.
If you look at my original post, I think you'll see a section called "3. Big Canonical Sticking Points," wherein I ask the community "what are the big bones of contention you have, that need to be addressed if the Realms is to move forward?"
My question (and bet) here is to answer the criticism that a retcon/reboot is really necessary, and to express my confidence that all of this can be taken care of with good design and realmslore work.
In fact, I might turn this into an actual contest . . . [PMs away!]
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 18:37:27
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Also Therise, you are more than welcome/encouraged to participate in the thread, if you have an interest in doing so.
What I *don't* want is yet another repetition of "the FR needs a reboot/retcon--that's the only possible solution." We've heard that logic before. This thread is about fixing the lore and moving on with a single canon that serves everyone.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 19:10:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also Therise, you are more than welcome/encouraged to participate in the thread, if you have an interest in doing so.
What I *don't* want is yet another repetition of "the FR needs a reboot/retcon--that's the only possible solution." We've heard that logic before. This thread is about fixing the lore and moving on with a single canon that serves everyone.
Cheers
Here, here! to that, Eric!
(I kept hearing about someone named 'Brace Cormaeril'. So I did a search... and wow was I ever impressed! A veritable Lore-lord! I guess that remembrance of this worthy was primed by this very scroll, because that Lore Lord, Brace Cormaeril, attempted to do the same thing Eric here is doing... with predictable results.)
Eric, here is a scroll dealing with the topic of reconciling 0e-4e lore,
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13749
It appears that folks weren't too interested in this cause then... I sure hope that things are different today! |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 19:19:28
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Another Sticking Point in Canon
Consolidation of the Pantheons
I'm not really sure why the design team chose to consolidate the Pantheon; seems to me that they basically burned three or four 'fluff books' when they did so. A more elegant solution would be to just introduce a few (by Realms-standards, so like, 40) deities in the core book, then expand the pantheons from there.
However, the g'nards of Candlekeep certainly didn't like the consolidation of the Pantheons!
So, the solution I propose would be the 'leave some things unsaid' approach; the approach a lot of people are using in their home games.
Don't have background for Eldath in the FRCG? No problem! Just because Eldath isn't listed, doesn't mean that the goddess of peaceful glades is gone!
Then, WotC can release lot of cool fluff book that details these deities.
like: "Gods of Ebil" -a guide to Ebil gods
"Gods of Nature" -Nobanion, Eldath, Silvanus,etc...
"Gods of the Cosmopoitans" -Siamorph et al
"Gods of...." -you get the picture
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 19:36:40
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Canonical Sticking Point
Halruaa
Halruaa suffered immensely in the wake of the Spellplague. For nearly 100 years, the Halruaar labored to forge the greatest work of Art ever seen on Toril; because, on that 'garbage quality' map provided with the FRCG, it's pretty clear that Halruaa stands... it just happens to be surrounded by Plaguelands and inaccessible. Many have tried to enter, but none have returned... until!
The Halruaar cast that great spell, with the aid of Mystra and her new Chosen (PC's), allied with the Skycaptains... and the Plaguelands abate! And though much remains to be done to fully secure Halruaa's borders, the city-state is again accessible.
(If you want to introduce uber-magic from old Netheril into your games...) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 19:51:53
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| I do think that Lady Swiftstrike does have a good point. From all that I have heard, the 4e Realms map was abysmal for accuracy. I actually think that it would behoove WotC to hire someone like Mark (i.e. someone who is a talented cartographer and a Realms fan) to do the map for the next iteration of the Realms. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 19:54:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Speaking of Cormyr, I'd love to see Rowan Cormaeril meet his son Azoun V.
1) It has been suggested in another thread that more on the non-Lolthite, non-Eilistraeean drow would be welcome. Same goes for drow cities other than Menzoberranzan.
2) Move the Bedine into Calimshan.
3) Restore Maztica. I'd be glad to see Unther and Mulhorand also, however, they might just be lumped together. Too similar. Both are clear RL analogues.
These are all excellent points.
Let drow be drow, and not 'dark elves' - a way to explain why the 'dark elf' label came about and how it is not always applicable, though. In addition to that, certain members of the drow pantheon should be restored, along with their key servants (Eilistraee and Qilue Veladorn, for example - having Ms. Smedman kill them off made no sense). Maybe restore (somehow) the drow city of Eryndlyn as a feature of that, perhaps as a 'neutral' drow city (neutral for drow, that is).
Moving the Bedine into Calimshan only works if you tone down the Calim-Memnon conflict considerably. Don't get me wrong - I completely agree with you, but they'd need someplace 'safe' (relatively speaking) to go.
Restore Maztica. I both agree and I don't. On the one hand (and attempting to follow ESdB's strictures), Returned Abeir was plunked down right in the center of where Maztica used to be. Chances are, it's there to stay, and the displaced Maztica will stay...well, displaced. Any details on most of what is Maztica will need to be detailed in a sourcebook on Abeir.
On the other hand, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that has been written that says absolutely all of the Maztican culture and civilization was erased from Toril. Is it possible that some of the 'True World' survived, maybe on islands or the southern edge of Anchorome (and/or the northern part of the southern continent)? I say yes. This would, of course, entail a book on Anchorome, and (without any question) comprehensive world mapping. An outline map of the entire planet (for DM usage), and detailed maps included in any and all source material.
I'll need to jot down some notes before I continue...need to stay constructive here... |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 20:00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I do think that Lady Swiftstrike does have a good point. From all that I have heard, the 4e Realms map was abysmal for accuracy. I actually think that it would behoove WotC to hire someone like Mark (i.e. someone who is a talented cartographer and a Realms fan) to do the map for the next iteration of the Realms.
Oh, no, Hawkins. I was being facetious in that regard. My friend Kate Irwin read Old Man Harpell's description of her work, and started to cry. It made her really sad to hear her work derided in that way.
I told her she shouldn't read Candlekeep, because comments like that regarding the current iteration of the Realms is common.
I think the map looked very nice, and look forward to others.
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 20:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I do think that Lady Swiftstrike does have a good point. From all that I have heard, the 4e Realms map was abysmal for accuracy. I actually think that it would behoove WotC to hire someone like Mark (i.e. someone who is a talented cartographer and a Realms fan) to do the map for the next iteration of the Realms.
Oh, no, Hawkins. I was being facetious in that regard. My friend Kate Irwin read Old Man Harpell's description of her work, and started to cry. It made her really sad to hear her work derided in that way.
I told her she shouldn't read Candlekeep, because comments like that regarding the current iteration of the Realms is common.
I think the map looked very nice, and look forward to others.
It is simply opinion. That, and until we hear from Ms. Irwin herself, I will take your words with the same Cormyr-sized salt lick that I use for all your other posts, because I believe it to be mostly fantasies cooked up to sensationalize your posts. Someone such as yourself, who has been unfailingly rude and abysmally non-productive contribution-wise in the manner of the unlamented 'Troll King', has pretty much earned it. |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 20:14:29
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Well, Old Man Harpell, there are nice, Code of Conduct adhering ways to present one's opinion, and crude, negative ways to present one's opinion.
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 20:25:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I do think that Lady Swiftstrike does have a good point. From all that I have heard, the 4e Realms map was abysmal for accuracy. I actually think that it would behoove WotC to hire someone like Mark (i.e. someone who is a talented cartographer and a Realms fan) to do the map for the next iteration of the Realms.
Oh, no, Hawkins. I was being facetious in that regard. My friend Kate Irwin read Old Man Harpell's description of her work, and started to cry. It made her really sad to hear her work derided in that way.
I told her she shouldn't read Candlekeep, because comments like that regarding the current iteration of the Realms is common.
I think the map looked very nice, and look forward to others.
Sheesh, as if you know Kate Irwin. She's the Art Director for WotC and Mirrorstone, not the cartographer.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 20:49:38
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Yeah, Kate really feels like everything that comes out of her department is good, and leaves with a 'stamp of approval'. It's a real drag when posters here provide such derogatory critique.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I do think that Lady Swiftstrike does have a good point. From all that I have heard, the 4e Realms map was abysmal for accuracy. I actually think that it would behoove WotC to hire someone like Mark (i.e. someone who is a talented cartographer and a Realms fan) to do the map for the next iteration of the Realms.
Oh, no, Hawkins. I was being facetious in that regard. My friend Kate Irwin read Old Man Harpell's description of her work, and started to cry. It made her really sad to hear her work derided in that way.
I told her she shouldn't read Candlekeep, because comments like that regarding the current iteration of the Realms is common.
I think the map looked very nice, and look forward to others.
Sheesh, as if you know Kate Irwin. She's the Art Director for WotC and Mirrorstone, not the cartographer.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 20:59:29
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Hey guys, can we not do this, please? I've tried to set a respectful tone for this thread, which has no room for off-topic arguments about people we may or may not know.
The fact about the maps is that the majority of Realms fans want more better, more detailed maps.
The 4e FR map was, like the 4e FR, seems to have been created specifically to give that sense of new/unexplored areas for adventure. I think they serve that purpose very well, and Ms. Irwin should be proud.
There should be 5e maps, of course, and I am sure WotC will pour their best effort into them.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 21:03:31
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Sorry about that, Eric! I really should know better than to repond to some scribes.
Anyway, are my other posts above more in line with what you are looking for in this thread?
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Hey guys, can we not do this, please? I've tried to set a respectful tone for this thread, which has no room for off-topic arguments about people we may or may not know.
The fact about the maps is that the majority of Realms fans want more better, more detailed maps.
The 4e FR map was, like the 4e FR, seems to have been created specifically to give that sense of new/unexplored areas for adventure. I think they serve that purpose very well, and Ms. Irwin should be proud.
There should be 5e maps, of course, and I am sure WotC will pour their best effort into them.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 22:09:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Anyway, are my other posts above more in line with what you are looking for in this thread?
Your post about Abeir, the Chosen, etc., is indeed what I'm looking for, though I could do with a little less of the judgment of other players and other play styles. Also the off-handed "I should know better than to respond to some scribes" is unnecessary and beneath you. Please refrain from such posts.
In general (to everyone), we are trying to maintain a positive, respectful tone in this thread. If that isn't something you support, and you want an argument, there are plenty of other threads to check out.
For the record, "Grognard" should not be used as a pejorative--I consider that to be a POSITIVE, not a negative. It means that you are set in a particular edition/style of D&D, and you judge everything new based on that. And that's totally fine--grognards have extremely important things to say as we move forward with the next iteration of the game and the setting, just as do people who want to shake things up and innovate.
I would like to push for a line of products that appeals to everyone: grognards, innovators, all new players, etc.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 19 Jan 2012 22:10:49 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 23:35:31
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Not grognards, HATERS. Big difference. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 23:51:02
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No haters allowed in this thread, please--whatever you hate. We're all here to talk about something we LOVE, not hate.
Also, this.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 00:10:50
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Erik, beyond anything else, I think the biggest hurdle you're going to run into is the fact that 4E unfortunately polarized people. It's not just mild dislike or mild approval, because it's easy to work with those and create compromise. It's not even necessarily a problem with the material, it's a severe divisional problem of the community.
What the solution to this polarization problem? You have to attack and undermine the very idea that there are two groups and that there are only two ways to see the 4E Realms. If someone has identified as pro or con, they need to be convinced that either the divide isn't as huge as they think -or- by literally shrinking the divide (showing people it's minimal) in novels and other publications. At the outset, many of the trolliest proponents of 4E seemed to take perverse pleasure in the dislike that some fans showed. Those same people are now horrified that they might end up on the losing side, so they're relaying a lot of anti-grognard sentiment and calling people haters. As if they were not guilty of the same behavior.
I'm not saying these things to continue or add to the divide. Rather, I'm saying that WotC needs to attack the perception that there is a divide. I think it's necessary if they want to serve both populations. The best way is to start showing, demonstrating, proving that the most disliked aspects of the 4E changes are starting to wane... or are gone. Since that can't happen immediately, unless some novels are coming out that do this, I think it's also necessary to have WotC come out with a formal statement that the changes will be diminished, minimized, or perhaps even reversed. It will have to be "just enough" to appease the people who disliked the changes, yet not so much that it drives away 4E proponents.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 00:24:00
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@Therise: Well, what I'm doing here in this thread is trying to find those canonical hobgoblins that need to be minimized/neutered in order to remake the Realms in a way that pleases the old guard but doesn't piss off the 4e-fans.
I do think the novels and sourcebooks HAVE been doing this, basically since the release of 4e FR. Not necessarily because 4e came out and we all went *oh snap! must fix!*, but because the gaps in canon aren't really that vast, and the setting IS the same setting it always has been. The 4e FRCG is just really, really bad at showing that (it's a matter of tone, presentation, marketing, etc).
(And there, see? I think I'm doing the other thing you mentioned too--attacking the concept of a divide. I'm not saying there isn't, but rather that there doesn't need to be.)
So what are your canonical hobgoblins, that we intrepid designers-errant might slay them, my lady?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 01:07:20
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I really applaud your cheerleader-ing, Eric, but I don't really see what concessions can be made to those that were burned by the 4E realms in order to make us accept them to a greater degree. In my estimation, it's not just about certain design elements--as Lady Assissin Shadow Strike Girl pointed out, there's always has been a great deal of diversity in the forgotten realms. Could FR players have accepted War Forged, Dragonborn, 4E wizardry, and other iconic pieces of the new system? Sure. They could've been added as saurials and drow and non-mystran chosen and sorcerers, and psionics, all of the other stuff that was once new. When those things were added, they were added incrementally and in a way that both preserved and deepened the importance of lore.
The core problem of the 4E Realms was that all of this new "stuff" was grafted on whole sale at the expense of the relevance of about 75% of the entire realms that came before it. It doesn't *feel* like the same realms because so MUCH is new and so much of what was familiar is a 100 years in the grave with no explanation, rhyme, or reason.
When I open the current FRCS and start reading, I see a Frankenstein's monster with a few familiar pieces that look like my wife. Not something I really feel like staying married to. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 01:21:17
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All due respect, WalkerNinja, but that's just not a helpful comment, and it has no place in the thread. If you're not interested in the discussion at hand, why are you posting here?
I personally disagree that "so MUCH is new"--there are new things, yes, but I think it's more a question of emphasis than actual canon. I firmly believe that 80% of the Realms is still exactly what it has always been, and the remaining 20% can either be safely ignored or rehabilitated to be useful and acceptable. I firmly believe that I could do this by myself, and it would be even easier and better to have so many heavy-hitters like Ed, Brian James, Brian Cortijo, etc., working on it.
If you hold out no hope, that's fine--you can be pleasantly surprised when it works out.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 01:39:19
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
The core problem of the 4E Realms was that all of this new "stuff" was grafted on whole sale at the expense of the relevance of about 75% of the entire realms that came before it.
This is the one aspect of the pro- and anti-4e argument that has always confused me somewhat. So I'm asking those who support this view to help me better understand it.
From my own perspective, I entirely agree that what was presented in the 4e FRCG was "new." But most only in the same context as what has been previously presented as "new" in each and every previous edition sourcebook. Every time a new source is being released, something new is coming, and not always with the benefit of building on what's come before.
Now, don't get me wrong, I grow just as weary of some of the "new" stuff at the expense of old, but the entire premise of developing a shared campaign world, is building something new. The old can't always been considered because, for whatever reason, it's either fine as it is, or developers don't see the need to update/include new references to it.
That's not to say that some questionable choices regarding the ignoring of old stuff in favour of the new, hasn't led to some bizarre developments in the 4e Realms. But I just can't see how "grafting new stuff wholesale" onto the Realms is really a problem when, essentially, that's what occurs each and every time a designer puts fingers to keyboard.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 01:44:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
All due respect, WalkerNinja, but that's just not a helpful comment, and it has no place in the thread. If you're not interested in the discussion at hand, why are you posting here?
I personally disagree that "so MUCH is new"--there are new things, yes, but I think it's more a question of emphasis than actual canon. I firmly believe that 80% of the Realms is still exactly what it has always been, and the remaining 20% can either be safely ignored or rehabilitated to be useful and acceptable. I firmly believe that I could do this by myself, and it would be even easier and better to have so many heavy-hitters like Ed, Brian James, Brian Cortijo, etc., working on it.
If you hold out no hope, that's fine--you can be pleasantly surprised when it works out.
Cheers
It's not that I don't want it to work, Eric. It's more that I'm highly skeptical at this point. If the goal is to heal the rift and to create rather than destroy, I'm one of the guys that you're aiming to pull back in. As such I would think that my thoughts/concerns are fairly valuable.
Transparency time: I knew when 4E was arriving that my time in D&D was limited. My professional life was ramping up, and my first child was coming soon--but I always intended to hold on to my FR and introduce it to my children when it came time.
As my sig states, I picked up my first FR book (Pool of Radiance) in 1990, and never looked back. When my parents burned my entire collection in the back yard, I rebuilt and expanded my entire collection and kept it at a friend's house. My FR materials were my only non-negotiable possession as my moved from town to town and apartment to apartment in good times and bad.
I decorated the game room at the game shop I helped start with all of my FR posters laminated and interlinked from Maztica to Kara Tur and on down to Zakhara.
When I read the 4EFRCS I was devastated. However much I liked the old Realms I realized that this new product would become the new Lingua Franca, and that it wasn't something that I could dive into. Going forward it would be like talking Commodore 64's with iPhone users. I had been a 4E cheer leader, but at that moment I started longing for Pathfinder.
Where once my materials had to be taken and destroyed, this time I sold them. I honestly feel like FR left me behind.
So I *want* to be drawn back in, I really hope for the best with this effort. I'm just trying to constructively say that so far I'm not seeing something that would make me want to go out and buy source-books or novels or reacquire my old collection on the secondary market. Changing the emphasis of the nuFR doesn't make my old products relevant again. It doesn't give me a common language to share camaraderie with nuFR Fans. It doesn't make me want to go out and evangelize like I used to. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 01:52:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
The core problem of the 4E Realms was that all of this new "stuff" was grafted on whole sale at the expense of the relevance of about 75% of the entire realms that came before it.
This is the one aspect of the pro- and anti-4e argument that has always confused me somewhat. So I'm asking those who support this view to help me better understand it.
From my own perspective, I entirely agree that what was presented in the 4e FRCG was "new." But most only in the same context as what has been previously presented as "new" in each and every previous edition sourcebook. Every time a new source is being released, something new is coming, and not always with the benefit of building on what's come before.
Now, don't get me wrong, I grow just as weary of some of the "new" stuff at the expense of old, but the entire premise of developing a shared campaign world, is building something new. The old can't always been considered because, for whatever reason, it's either fine as it is, or developers don't see the need to update/include new references to it.
That's not to say that some questionable choices regarding the ignoring of old stuff in favour of the new, hasn't led to some bizarre developments in the 4e Realms. But I just can't see how "grafting new stuff wholesale" onto the Realms is really a problem when, essentially, that's what occurs each and every time a designer puts fingers to keyboard.
In my estimation, it's because even when changes were drastic before they were still well rooted in what was familiar. When Bane died, Fzoul didn't go away. He had to deal with the change as much as we did. There was a story that affected things that we were already invested in.
Even Bob Salvatore eventually got into the swing of it. The Icewind Dale/Legend of Drizzt couldn't remain a satellite forever--eventually it started interacting with the Realms we knew. They went to Calimshan, they went to Waterdeep. They interacted with people and organization we knew, but we got to watch the change happen and the reference points remained mostly constant.
This time we weren't involved in the story, it happened behind the curtain. And it wasn't just one story, it was one hundred years of stories. Meanwhile every human NPC (or PC for that matter) got resigned to the grave by a plot device that really had no plot other than boosting sales. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 02:05:33
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I hate Nazi's Erik, is it ok to be a hater of
Nazi's?
I don't see what the problem is with what Erik is
suggesting. I think think trying to finally
rectify everything and make all the pieces fit
would be the best course of action at this point.
Actually, I think it is the only way at this point
to get everbyody back due to the level of alienation
between the Edition War camps. (By the way, join the Edition Wars movie thread and help bring some fun back to the 'Keep.) |
Edited by - althen artren on 20 Jan 2012 02:08:48 |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e)
Topic Locked
