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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 17:51:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
(*I would also include Halruaa in this listing. I don't think the magic kingdom was really destroyed at all--I think it was stolen away and the wool pulled over everyone's eyes.)
I’d wager that’s true, but Halruaa is sitting in a corner of the Nine Hells (Baator?), where Asmodeus is delighting himself in wearing the humans down, clashing his forces against theirs and using his knowledge gained from Azuth’s godhead to undermine the human’s defenses as he slowly recovers every single last shred of magical knowledge from them, including their newly devised (over the last century) magical attacks for slaying devils.
I wonder how many Halruaan archmages were forcibly teleported to Abeir or into other planes of existence during the Spellplague? Seems like the Spellplague’s chaotic and random nature coupled with the softening of the boundaries between worlds and planes would shunt more than a few mages out of one reality and into another.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 20:58:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A random thing: I wonder if the alternate world we saw in the last Sembia novel is referring to Abeir. Anyone else think that's possible?
I've yet to read the last "Sembia" novel. Could you elaborate on this?
I'll second this request for the same reasons. Many thanks! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 21:01:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
(*I would also include Halruaa in this listing. I don't think the magic kingdom was really destroyed at all--I think it was stolen away and the wool pulled over everyone's eyes.)
I’d wager that’s true, but Halruaa is sitting in a corner of the Nine Hells (Baator?), where Asmodeus is delighting himself in wearing the humans down, clashing his forces against theirs and using his knowledge gained from Azuth’s godhead to undermine the human’s defenses as he slowly recovers every single last shred of magical knowledge from them, including their newly devised (over the last century) magical attacks for slaying devils.
I wonder how many Halruaan archmages were forcibly teleported to Abeir or into other planes of existence during the Spellplague? Seems like the Spellplague’s chaotic and random nature coupled with the softening of the boundaries between worlds and planes would shunt more than a few mages out of one reality and into another.
I like this idea... my earlier thought was that Halruaa ended up in Abeir, but if Azuth really has gone to Hell, it makes far more sense for Halruaa to have gone with him... Hellruaa? 
The question now is, how to bring it back? I think this should be the first mega-adventure of the new edition Realms.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 22:22:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A random thing: I wonder if the alternate world we saw in the last Sembia novel is referring to Abeir. Anyone else think that's possible?
I've yet to read the last "Sembia" novel. Could you elaborate on this?
I'll second this request for the same reasons. Many thanks!
It's been a while, but in LORD OF STORMWEATHER, there's an alternate world behind a looking glass. Could that have been Abeir?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 23:31:39
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@Erik
Ah you mean the one that Tamlin accessed?
But if Halruaa had become a plaything of the Greater Deity Devil God Asmodeus, would they have really held out for 100 years (I'd think he'd get bored after a while, what with bigger fish to fry and all)? If they have, they must be as kick-ass as the deep imaskari before their emergence now. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 23:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's been a while, but in LORD OF STORMWEATHER, there's an alternate world behind a looking glass. Could that have been Abeir?
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
@Erik
Ah you mean the one that Tamlin accessed?
Oh, right, I remember that one now... I don't think of that one as a Sembia novel, more as the first Erevis Cale novel. 
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
If they have, they must be as kick-ass as the deep imaskari before their emergence now.
Here's hoping... between the Shades and the Deep Imaskari, we need a powerful "not-evil" wizardly nation in the Realms, or all of Faerun would logically be overrun by now. Aglarond is no longer a buffer to Thay, which is no longer a buffer to Imaskar thanks to Tam's failed ritual and the massacre of its population... and Cormyr and Cormanthyr are the only major realms keeping Shade in check.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 01 Mar 2012 00:01:18 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 00:39:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A random thing: I wonder if the alternate world we saw in the last Sembia novel is referring to Abeir. Anyone else think that's possible?
I've yet to read the last "Sembia" novel. Could you elaborate on this?
I'll second this request for the same reasons. Many thanks!
It's been a while, but in LORD OF STORMWEATHER, there's an alternate world behind a looking glass. Could that have been Abeir?
Cheers
Hmmm. I don't remember that bit. Looks like I need to re-read Lord of Stormweather, because this could potentially tie into my own theory about dimensional relations between Toril and Abeir.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 00:42:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[quote]Originally posted by Aes Tryl
If they have, they must be as kick-ass as the deep imaskari before their emergence now.
Here's hoping... between the Shades and the Deep Imaskari, we need a powerful "not-evil" wizardly nation in the Realms, or all of Faerun would logically be overrun by now. Aglarond is no longer a buffer to Thay, which is no longer a buffer to Imaskar thanks to Tam's failed ritual and the massacre of its population... and Cormyr and Cormanthyr are the only major realms keeping Shade in check.
Aren't the Deep Imaskari not evil? Yeah I just checked the 2003 underdark supplement for them, They are mostly LN, with a few good and evil alignments mixed in. So they should be pretty safe as a nation. As opposed to the evil magocracies of Thay and the Shade enclave. As we can see in Richard Lee Byers recently trilogy featuring Brimstone and the Xorviintal, the deep Imaskari have bigger fish to fry than Thay at the moment
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 01:00:02
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Thanks for the clarification on Deep Imaskar... I actually haven't done much with them, largely because Thay has been the "big bad evil" in my Eastern Faerun and my storyline heavily involves the Thayan conquest of Mulhorand, Unther, Aglarond (The Simbul's not there any more), and Thesk... not to mention the regions to the east of Mulhorand, which is where Thay's forces meet their first real resistance. I thought Thay kind of became a one-trick pony with the "undead everywhere" motif of Szass Tam's unilateral rule... but that might just be me.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 02:38:21
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| I am confused about or primordial solution. Aren't the fr primordial just akadi grumbar Kossuth and istishia? They have been in the realms all along, so how would this work? |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 01 Mar 2012 02:39:28 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 02:52:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I am confused about or primordial solution. Aren't the fr primordial just akadi grumbar Kossuth and istishia? They have been in the realms all along, so how would this work?
That confuses me to a point, too. Why weren't these primordials confined to Abeir as well? Or were they double (or triple) agents in the conflict? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 03:50:35
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@Jakk
Perhaps they defected to Chauntea's side during the war, feeling more at home with her than with their primordial brethren? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 04:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's been a while, but in LORD OF STORMWEATHER, there's an alternate world behind a looking glass. Could that have been Abeir?
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
@Erik
Ah you mean the one that Tamlin accessed?
Oh, right, I remember that one now... I don't think of that one as a Sembia novel, more as the first Erevis Cale novel.
That would be news to Paul, no doubt, as Dave Gross was the author of that book.
http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Stormweather-Forgotten-Realms-Gross/dp/0786929324
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I am confused about or primordial solution. Aren't the fr primordial just akadi grumbar Kossuth and istishia? They have been in the realms all along, so how would this work?
That confuses me to a point, too. Why weren't these primordials confined to Abeir as well? Or were they double (or triple) agents in the conflict?
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
@Jakk
Perhaps they defected to Chauntea's side during the war, feeling more at home with her than with their primordial brethren?
Several explanations:
1) Alliance: Well, there's nothing that explicitly states that primordials and gods CAN'T work together, just that they usually don't. In the case of the 4 FR primordials (as I noted above), they willingly or unwillingly sided with the Torilian gods before the twinning of Abeir-Toril.
2) Trapped: No plan is ever fool-proof, and mistakes get made. When Ao twinned the worlds, he trapped these four primordials in Toril. They decided that it would be better to *pretend* to be gods in order to not be killed by all their divine enemies. Or maybe they didn't deceive anyone but instead simply surrendered and agreed to play by the rules. Ao, acknowledging that they were worthy and useful to this newly birthed world, decreed that they would belong to the world just as much as the gods do.
3) Part of the twinning: This is my favorite explanation, in which the four primordials trapped in Toril are actually the supports for Ao's plan--they are the four anchors between which the Weave is spun. The gods couldn't destroy them without unraveling magic or bringing the worlds back into conjunction, and the primordials couldn't very well lash out for fear of their own destruction. Gods and primordials existed in a state of stalemate, and this went on so long tensions eased between them. Mortals worshiped the four primordials like gods themselves, and the primordials drew strength from it the way gods do in Ao's world. Whether they realized they were imprisoned/used in this fashion or they were completely unaware, the binding eventually broke down with the Spellplague and the four were again free to be their primordial selves, not having to answer to any god or overgod.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 05:16:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Several explanations:
1) Alliance: Well, there's nothing that explicitly states that primordials and gods CAN'T work together, just that they usually don't. In the case of the 4 FR primordials (as I noted above), they willingly or unwillingly sided with the Torilian gods before the twinning of Abeir-Toril.
2) Trapped: No plan is ever fool-proof, and mistakes get made. When Ao twinned the worlds, he trapped these four primordials in Toril. They decided that it would be better to *pretend* to be gods in order to not be killed by all their divine enemies. Or maybe they didn't deceive anyone but instead simply surrendered and agreed to play by the rules. Ao, acknowledging that they were worthy and useful to this newly birthed world, decreed that they would belong to the world just as much as the gods do.
3) Part of the twinning: This is my favorite explanation, in which the four primordials trapped in Toril are actually the supports for Ao's plan--they are the four anchors between which the Weave is spun. The gods couldn't destroy them without unraveling magic or bringing the worlds back into conjunction, and the primordials couldn't very well lash out for fear of their own destruction. Gods and primordials existed in a state of stalemate, and this went on so long tensions eased between them. Mortals worshiped the four primordials like gods themselves, and the primordials drew strength from it the way gods do in Ao's world. Whether they realized they were imprisoned/used in this fashion or they were completely unaware, the binding eventually broke down with the Spellplague and the four were again free to be their primordial selves, not having to answer to any god or overgod.
Cheers
These are all fascinating in and of themselves, but it seems as if it would be against nearly all of the divinities interests to allow anything to happen to Mystra. I'll buy (for the moment) that Cyric is insane enough to try to kill Mystra, and even that Shar would go along for reasons only she could understand, but wouldn't all other deities act to prevent the death of Mystra to maintain the Balance as Ao decreed? Another point that has always bothered me about 4E is that unlike all precedent, a new "Mystra" didn't appear. Given Karsus' actions were almost cataclysmic in nature, it just seems to portray the other deities as rather stupid. With the collapse of the Weave, knowledge would be lost, crops would fail, people would die, (enter Oghma, Deneir, Chauntea, Silvanus, Ilmater), chaos would reign (enter all of the Law gods), great edifices built by hand would crumble (Gond), whole sections of the Underdark would collapse (enter pretty much all of the demihuman pantheons, even Lolth) because they all depend on the Weave keeping their positions in the cosmos and the pantheon. So presuming they allow Cyric and Shar to murder Mystra, why didn't a new god(ess) of magic immediately spawn? Presumably Ao (or perhaps Helm, at his direction) held the Weave together during the Time of Troubles, so the gist is that Ao - as omnipotent and almighty as he is, didn't place a contingency plan in place?
I would find a more compelling story in which Abeir contains some kind of "Anti-Ao," and this wicked, unbalanced power managed to temporarily draw Ao's attention away from Toril long enough for the Weave to collapse and Mystra to die. It would be an epic series of novels as Ao marshalls his deities back into existence to fight for the rebuilding of the Weave and the resegregation of Abeir and Toril. Much like the land still had Wild Magic Zones, there could be small portlets that allow adventurers to travel between Abeir and Toril at great peril, thus enabling books and adventures to take place in the "Spell Plagued Land of Abeir" much as any of the outer planes. However, if this were done, I would expect Ao to exact extreme punishment on Cyric and Shar, as their portfolios only extend to the Realms, and not to undoing all of his creation. He might even bring back Bhaal to replace Cyric and give Mask the portfolio of night, making Shar the demipower of flickering flame shadows or something.
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 05:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's been a while, but in LORD OF STORMWEATHER, there's an alternate world behind a looking glass. Could that have been Abeir?
Cheers
If that was the original intention of the author, the recurring use of motifs suggestive of well-known fairy tales about people being abducted by elves to their mysterious world, otherwise unreachable by humans, would seem out of place.
If I had to locate this world and couldn't, for some reason, simply make it a very large demi-plane of the Ethereal, I would make it a part of the Feywild sealed off a long-time ago. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 01 Mar 2012 05:32:44 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 05:52:31
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@Azuth: Well, I'm not convinced Mystra died at all. Her being alive and imprisoned/weakened/cut off from most of her power would keep that contingency from functioning.
It's also entirely possible that a new one DID spring up, but was immediately captured by Shar (who had planned for this all along).
But I don't want to go more into that because ED IS TAKING CARE OF THE MYSTRA SITUATION. Read EMD and BED, and I'm sure more answers will show up in Elminster Enraged.
I do find the Anti-Ao concept interesting as well.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 06:03:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's been a while, but in LORD OF STORMWEATHER, there's an alternate world behind a looking glass. Could that have been Abeir?
If that was the original intention of the author, the recurring use of motifs suggestive of well-known fairy tales about people being abducted by elves to their mysterious world, otherwise unreachable by humans, would seem out of place.
If I had to locate this world and couldn't, for some reason, simply make it a very large demi-plane of the Ethereal, I would make it a part of the Feywild sealed off a long-time ago.
Probably, that wasn't at all Dave's intention--it's obvious he was playing with legends of Faerie as you suggest--but the point stands: there are indeed alternate worlds, and it's really not much of a stretch to think Abeir is just another one of them.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 06:28:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I am confused about or primordial solution. Aren't the fr primordial just akadi grumbar Kossuth and istishia? They have been in the realms all along, so how would this work?
you forgot Entropy locked away in some sphere on anialation.....
and ubtao, the king of dnis... he betrayed the others and who's to say that the four elemental gods did not take sides remaining nuetral or saw their fellow primordials as anti creation and being the chief of fire.... water.... etc, they knew tehir elements enough to know that each creates as it destroys and sided with the gods along wit hthe father of dinos. each obtaining divinity over the centuries.....or having it awarded by AO
Entropy on the otherhand....... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 01 Mar 2012 06:29:54 |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 06:34:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
--but the point stands: there are indeed alternate worlds, and it's really not much of a stretch to think Abeir is just another one of them.
Not that hard no, but I would prevere Abeir as a twin world on the other side of Toril's sun, after 4e Spellplague struck (think of Marvel Comic's alternate Earth after Onslaught). Would be easier to reach (via Spelljammer besides gates)and add a second playground in the solar system with 'old friends' like Maztica and Mulhorand that were transposed there during Spellplague |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 06:48:22
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| So is the assumption here that we're stuck with FR having to continue using the core 4e primordials vs gods universe and prehistory as its own history retconned in, rather than the pre-4e lore? |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 06:48:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Azuth: Well, I'm not convinced Mystra died at all. Her being alive and imprisoned/weakened/cut off from most of her power would keep that contingency from functioning.
It's also entirely possible that a new one DID spring up, but was immediately captured by Shar (who had planned for this all along).
But I don't want to go more into that because ED IS TAKING CARE OF THE MYSTRA SITUATION. Read EMD and BED, and I'm sure more answers will show up in Elminster Enraged.
I do find the Anti-Ao concept interesting as well.
Cheers
Thanks for responding to this one, Erik. I would also like to add that I like the idea of Shar being taken down a peg or three... and I also think it should be to a reborn Mask's benefit. I think seeing them both as intermediate powers would be good. I do think that Azuth raises an important point about other deities acting to thwart Shar's plans, but when we look at what else was going on (Helm, Tyr, and Sune; the Morndinsamman's march on Hammergrim; the implosion of the drow pantheon; etc.) we shouldn't be surprised that something escaped notice. Besides, remember that Shar is the deity of entropy, even if it's not formally part of her portfolio; she wants to return Realmspace to the pristine empty blackness it was in the beginning, and I think that she would be as patient and subtle as necessary to bring this about. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 06:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
So is the assumption here that we're stuck with FR having to continue using the core 4e primordials vs gods universe and prehistory as its own history retconned in, rather than the pre-4e lore?
I believe so, yes... I was thinking that if WotC really wants to avoid retcons in the new edition Realms, then they should start by eliminating all those that happened previously. 
But that would be contrary to the purpose of this scroll... and regardless of how I feel about the logic of WotC's position, I think Erik and other scribes have made some big steps forward here. I'll see what Ed does with his current Elminster storyline (which I'm enjoying very much), and definitely read Paul Kemp's upcoming trilogy, before I pass judgement on the 5E Realms. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 01 Mar 2012 06:58:00 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 07:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I was thinking that if WotC really wants to avoid retcons in the new edition Realms, then they should start by eliminating all those that happened previously.
But that would be contrary to the purpose of this scroll...
Not to mention a bit logically inconsistent, i.e., "let's avoid retcons by retconning the retcons!"
The purpose of this scroll is to build "One Canon, One Story, One Realms"--integrate everything, without retcons, and move on.
And I don't think the 4e Dawn War cosmology is incompatible with previous cosmology. But we're talking about the Realms here, not about the greater cosmos. I think of cosmologies as being less about canonical difference and more about paradigmatic difference. The Great Wheel, the Astral Sea, the Tree of Life--all of these perceptions of the universe are true . . . "from a certain point of view," as Alec Guinness would put it. The scope of the multi-planar multiverse is just too vast for us to understand it the same way we do one little material world like Abeir-Toril.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 01 Mar 2012 07:21:40 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 07:30:22
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Erik, I beg you excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject, but can I ask a somewhat naive question?
Is there anything in the 4e material which would preclude the explanation that the God-Primordial divide is far more plastic than most seem to assume?
It seems to me that beings commonly accepted as 'gods' in Faerun include several whose origins are entirely seperate from the Estelar-Primordial one. This would be Shar, Selune, Chauntea and Mystra. Even Talos, in his original guise as the Stomstar, embodies a concept far more basic to existence than later gods or primordials. While the modern conception of the god is focused on violent natural and man-made destruction, the original, said to be formed by Shar to extinguish life and light after the transgression of Selune in creation the Crystal Sun, could represent nothing less than all the forces that contribute to the end of things, in other words, desctruction, whether violent or gradual, and death. In other words, what modern humans term entropy.
In addition, several of those identified as 'Gods' in the FRCG (or, at least, not numbered among its Primordials) appear to be more akin to the Elemental Chaos than anything else. Apart from the acquisation of some human characteristics like spite or vanity, and most importantly, the ability to be flattered, bribed or concilated, are Auril and Umberlee so different from Primordials? They want to cover the lands with their 'element, for an ill-definable reason, and are only kept from doing so by the opposition of other gods and by the aformentioned fact that they are apparently more prone than the four Elemental Lords of succumbing to mortal blandishments.
I imagine that the power of those beings we used to lump together under the umbrella term 'gods' and whom the planewalkers sometimes call 'powers' can come from at least three broadly defined sources.
The first, that they embody a force or concept so basic to existence that in its absence, it would be meaningless to imagine one. These would precede all others and be the most likely candidate for a true Creator being*.
The second, beings who derive their extraordinary power from a substance or process in the world, represented by what was previously known as the Inner or Elemental Planes and is now known as the Elemental Chaos. In a way, these beings tap into the various fundamental building blocks of worlds and the immense forces that spring from them.
The third, beings whose source of power appears to be belief. In some bizarre way, the abilities, personalities and appearances of these beings appears to conform fairly closely to what the majority of its believers think of them.
While it would be easy to attribute this to their jealous demands for 'proper' veneration, analysis of the substantial changes that such beings have gone through when the societies that worshipped them changed, without raising effective objections, indicates that the causation might instead be reversed. In other words, such beings are shaped and perhaps even created by the imagination of their worshippers. In a way, their source of power is the Conception, in the mental sense of grasping or comprehending concepts.
This category includes most of Faerun's well known gods, representing as they do portfolies important to people making up the societies that live there. The power of belief and imagination, or as I call it, Conception, also lies at the root of the Great Wheel Cosmology, in that all the Outer Planes are shaped by it.
From this point of view, it makes sense to view the second group as the Primordials who cared nothing for humanity or other mortals, the third group as the Estelar, who, whether good or evil, had a vested interest in protecting their worshippers, and the first group as possible aspects of Ao, or at the very least his most powerful children, who fortunately took the side of the Estelar.
Yet this view, while mostly correct, is simplified to the extent that it does not appear to account for all the observed evidence. For one thing, even while the Elemental Chaos is said to be disordered, the four Elemental Lords are lords of what humans on Toril widely believe to constitute the primary building blocks of the world, i.e. Earth, Air, Water and Fire.
Not only are these fairly arbitrary distinctions, but they are illogical. These things seem unlikely to be the true building blocks of the universe. They are a heterogenous mixture, a homogenous mixture, a compound and a process. There is not a true 'element' among them, i.e. something that cannot be reduced into smaller and more fundamental building blocks.
This provides our first clue that things are more complex than they seem. For while the sources of Conception and Elements might appear opposed at first glance, we know from our history of philosophy that the two are intimately related. At the furthest extents of imagination there must exist at least the possibility of mental Conception of the very Ideal Forms of the universe. By the same token, infinite reduction of the supposed Elements down to ever smaller constituent component will in theory leave nothing but the Platonic Ideal Form of the Element. These are opposing principles which, when taken to extremes, find themselves merging at the far ends.
We can see practical examples of this in action when examining Toril's history. Even if we, for the moment, discard any hypothetical Primordials I would like to posit among the modern ranks of the Gods, we can look at Grumbar, Akadi, Istishia and Kossuth. Their division of authority is founded in human philosophy and all of them have worshippers, a clergy and even, to some extent, an anthropomorphic personality. Indeed, some of them are said to have successfully impersonated divine beings and participated in divine politics as well as personal interactions with their faithful.
They are more and less than whatever they were as their Primordial selves, for in accepting power that derived from the beliefs of mortals, they have been shaped by the power of mortal Conception.
If we insist on extending the duality of Estelar-Primordial to the 'Higher' deities**, it becomes clear that merely counting by origin is nowhere enough. Should they all be counted as Primordial, on the theory that the Elemental Chaos embodies both radience and areas of darkness, as well as all of the elements that make up the body of the Earthmother?
Hardly. Life and Death or Destruction and Creation are not Elements and the Earthmother is not distinguished primarily by the rock that forms her, but by the life that she nourishes. And while it is possible that the Elemental Chaos might include areas of darkness, such areas would seem to be characterised only by the absence of light. Shar's darkness is not merely the absence of light, it is the absence of life, energy and matter.
And what of Mystryl/Mystra? While things Earthlings would call supernatural abound in the Elemental Chaos as well as the Outer Planes, what the people of Toril know as magic actually does not work very well there, certainly not the further you go (metaphorically speaking) from the worlds of mortals, i.e. the Prime Material.
Most importantly, these beings, despite not being dependent on the belief or Conception of mortals for their power in any way, were not exiled to Abeir.
At its roots, the distinction between Primordial and Estelar was drawn by where a particular being stood in an ancient war for the fate of Abeir-Toril. Those Primordials who gloried in their elemental powers and wished to unleash them in creating for themselves vast dominions on Abeir-Toril, caring nothing for the mortals they destroyed, were the Primordials that Ao finally exiled.
The Estelar who opposed them were those whose existence or power base was threathened by the destruction of mortals and among those were numbered beings that might have come into existence as Primordials.
Finally, there was a third group. These desired neither to destroy all rivals remake Abeir-Toril in their own image nor did they care overmuch for mortals. These were the Primordials who were not exiled or the Estelar who did not want to fight for suzerainty of the world. Among them were the Elemental Lords mentioned above, but also various beings of more than mortal power, but less than the gods. They fled the war, establishing themselves in refuges, perhaps alone, perhaps with a few mortals or near-mortals, but not seeking to be worshipped by the masses. From these might come many spirits and creatures we know in the modern Realms.
But what, then, of Gods who would have supported the goals of the Primordials but were not exiled? Shar, for example, would have supported the Primordials in seizing Toril, for a few powerful elemental beings ruling over a land empty of other life would, at the very least, be less offensive to her than the diverse and teeming life it evinces now. Talos, then the Stormstar, could also be expected to be in favour of something so destructive.
The answer is deceptively simple. Exiling a being drawing significantly upon mortal belief for its source of power would be useless while mortals still continue to give strength to it with their beliefs. While people still simultaneously fear the dark and remain in equal parts fascinated and horrified by the thought of total oblivion, Shar, or a being so similar that it makes no matter, will remain powerful.
By the same token, while death, decay and destruction exert their influences on the mortal psyche, it is impossible to be rid of gods personifying these things. Ao managed to strip away the more impersonal aspects of the entity of Entropy from the mass of power embodying that concept, but that still left the Stormstar as representing a lot of destructive things.***
Fortunately, by exiling those least dependent on mortal Conception, the destructive potential of the deities whose goals were inimical to humanity was subject to severe restraints. As their plans grew more successful, the number of potential worshippers would grow fewer and their power therefore less. As a consequence, even their worst efforts have not managed to extinguish the life that the Earthmother nourishes.
By the modern day, any divine being known to mortals, no matter which of these three origins it had, has been shaped to some degree by mortal perceptions and expectations. As is dramatically evidenced by the Elemental Lords, once mortals define you, your nature is forever altered by them. This is a source of much power, but it is also the source of the limitations that appear to bind divine beings, regardless of nature. The reason people called all these beings 'gods' is because their similarities, despite different origins, have become so great that they are for most functional purposes the same.
*Whether such a being was ever a single creature who later diverged into the seperate powers we know or whether the contradictions inherent in the original forces provided the impetus for Creation is unclear, of course. A third option would be that the world has always existed, although it may pass through stages of utter nothingness as well as stages of diversity. A truly wise, though absolutely useless, philosopher would say that all these explanations are absolutely and factually true at the same time.
**Which I believe would be a mistake, as these are beings of a third origin, clearly distinguishable from the other two. In a cosmology of Conception and Ideal, they collectively represent both the Eternal and Change, Entropy and Creation, the Circle of Life and Death, Light and Darkness, Yin and Yang. Interestingly, some of the legends of the oldest races clearly focus on aspects of these beings rather than any distinction between Estelar and Primordials.
***It is easy to imagine the Stormstar later splitting, whether by forming new beings or by vesting some of its power in existing ones, into all the gods now representing some aspect of destruction and perhaps even those representing death. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 01 Mar 2012 07:33:48 |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 07:56:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Erik, I beg you excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject, but can I ask a somewhat naive question?
<massive snip>
Well said! My head hurts, but very well said! My only query is this: what was the naïve question?
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 07:58:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Well said! My head hurts, but very well said! My only query is this: what was the naïve question?
Azuth
Whether there was anything in canonical 4e lore that contradicted this interpretation. I've read the FRCG through, but I don't own it, and I have no other 4e material, so there is always a chance that developers have already invalidated my interpretation here with specific statements that contradict it. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 14:42:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I was thinking that if WotC really wants to avoid retcons in the new edition Realms, then they should start by eliminating all those that happened previously.
But that would be contrary to the purpose of this scroll...
Not to mention a bit logically inconsistent, i.e., "let's avoid retcons by retconning the retcons!"
The purpose of this scroll is to build "One Canon, One Story, One Realms"--integrate everything, without retcons, and move on.
And I don't think the 4e Dawn War cosmology is incompatible with previous cosmology. But we're talking about the Realms here, not about the greater cosmos. I think of cosmologies as being less about canonical difference and more about paradigmatic difference. The Great Wheel, the Astral Sea, the Tree of Life--all of these perceptions of the universe are true . . . "from a certain point of view," as Alec Guinness would put it. The scope of the multi-planar multiverse is just too vast for us to understand it the same way we do one little material world like Abeir-Toril.
Cheers
I have never given up the great wheel. Even with the FR cosmology. The great wheel is the foundation upon which all other cosmologies derive.
I made a map in one of my notebooks for each FR divine realm. Essentially each divine realm was a knitted fraction of various planes from the great wheel appropriate to the alignment of that realm (Made infinite, because half of infinity is infinity) oriented to the FR cosmology. The cosmic tree of the FR allowed unique travel between these realms that was not easy to traverse via the great wheel. So if one travelled to the Barons of Doom and Despair which contained parts of acheron and hell made into its own realm, (yet at the same time separate on the great wheel), they would never actually get to go directly from barons of Doom and Despair to Hell. The Hell of the forgotten Realms has domains unique to it.
The great wheel still stands, but until an adventurere searches out the Great wheel for planar travel they will be traversing Realms Cosmology. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 16:09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Well said! My head hurts, but very well said! My only query is this: what was the naïve question?
Azuth
Whether there was anything in canonical 4e lore that contradicted this interpretation. I've read the FRCG through, but I don't own it, and I have no other 4e material, so there is always a chance that developers have already invalidated my interpretation here with specific statements that contradict it.
Fascinating analysis, Icelander. Simply answered, NO--I don't believe there is any lore in the 4e books that contradicts your idea. I confess I'm not as steeped in the ways of primordials as I could be--having only skimmed Plane Below and Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. I rather like your conception about gods and primordials being shaped by mortal belief, and a single being having the ability to fill either role as appropriate. (How very existentialist of you!)
Primordials vs. Gods: What's the difference?
This is one of those big questions that we don't really know the answer to, and the designers have left it somewhat vague. I'm sure there are lots of potential solutions out there in D&D scholarship, but none of these are any more hard-and-fast than what the Greeks knew about their gods, for instance, or we in the modern day know about the various world religions. They are questions of faith and belief, not reality and fact.
Personally, I ascribe to the theory that primordials are the spawn of the elemental building blocks of the multiverse (not just the four classic but others as well), while the gods are immortal beings that learned to channel those powers. Applying my "power source" concept, the primordials are born of the source, but the gods seek to usurp it, so of course they go to war over it. Largely, the battle lines are drawn between gods and primordials, but any individual entity can cross party lines and fight for the other side. Lolth, for instance, sought to destroy Corellon and the other Seldarine. Shar advanced the primordials' cause in so far as it moved against Selune and the greater cause of life in the world--though I suspect primordial creatures would have been harder for her to destroy ultimately. Talos might well have been more primordial than god, or a primordial entirely (Lightning).
The Twinning
When Ao split Abeir-Toril with the help of his counterpart--call her Xi (pronounced "she"), who got Abeir while Ao retained Toril--it was because the battle lines were so blurry in Abeir-Toril that all was going to be destroyed. Ao's consideration was not for mortals (or the potential for mortals)--as he has never given a whit about mortals--but he too is dependent upon worship (that of the gods and primordials) for his existence. Twinning the worlds (and separating himself from Xi, the only other being like him in existence) was his only option if he was to continue existing.
The gods and primordials were so intertwined in Abeir-Toril that the twinning was not a neat process. The four "classic" primordials were trapped in Toril, which I believe may itself have influenced mortal philosophy as regards elements (i.e., they believed air, fire, earth, and water were the four basic elements because those were the most powerful in Toril because of the trapped primordials). Other primordials or primordial-like beings (such as Talos, Maegera, Ghaunadaur and others) were similarly trapped in Toril, though some of them remained free to be worshipped as gods or made their way to other planes of existence to expand their powerbase. The one place they could not go, however, was Abeir--not with Ao's ban in place.
I think a little bit of Ao existed in Abeir, and a little bit of Xi existed in Toril--the two overgods formed a yin/yang sort of relationship, existing in balance with neither quite able to escape or overwhelm the other.
What about Shar?
As for Shar--I don't think Shar is really a goddess or a primordial. Not at heart, anyway. She's something else. Gods are beings that channel the power of the cosmos, and primordials are the spawn of that power. Shar, on the other hand, is the personification of non-existence. She is the dark shadow of life--not death, but never having been born in the first place.
Yes of course there are cults and a huge organized religion set up to worship her, but one doesn't actually have to be a god to have adherents. Look at Ao, for instance.
I think Shar is a proto-overgod. She may seem like a goddess now, but that's only until she has enough power to challenge Ao. She may *be* this mysterious "Xi" character I talked about--Ao's counterpart, given Abeir to rule over. The hugely powerful goddess we know and love/hate in Toril is, in actuality, that tiny balancing echo of Xi from Abeir. And the only reason she didn't reduce Abeir to nothing was that she couldn't--she still had Ao's influence in her, and Abeir was inextricably dependant upon Toril for its existence or non-existence. In order for Abeir to cease existing, so would Toril have to cease.
The Conjunction
When the Spellplague happened, unraveling the Weave Ao had set up to twin the worlds, Abeir and Toril came back together violently, before Ao could once again separate them. This also saw the return of Xi, who finally had the chance to destroy all creation in the Realms. Without the Weave, Ao has spent the last century holding the worlds apart and keeping Xi in check--that's why he's seemed absent for so long. And for the first time, Ao really needs mortal heroes to fix what has been undone, before his own strength fails and Xi defeats him and destroys everything.
Just some thoughts!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 16:42:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Fascinating analysis, Icelander. Simply answered, NO--I don't believe there is any lore in the 4e books that contradicts your idea. I confess I'm not as steeped in the ways of primordials as I could be--having only skimmed Plane Below and Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. I rather like your conception about gods and primordials being shaped by mortal belief, and a single being having the ability to fill either role as appropriate. (How very existentialist of you!)
Primordials vs. Gods: What's the difference?
This is one of those big questions that we don't really know the answer to, and the designers have left it somewhat vague. I'm sure there are lots of potential solutions out there in D&D scholarship, but none of these are any more hard-and-fast than what the Greeks knew about their gods, for instance, or we in the modern day know about the various world religions. They are questions of faith and belief, not reality and fact.
Personally, I ascribe to the theory that primordials are the spawn of the elemental building blocks of the multiverse (not just the four classic but others as well), while the gods are immortal beings that learned to channel those powers. Applying my "power source" concept, the primordials are born of the source, but the gods seek to usurp it, so of course they go to war over it. Largely, the battle lines are drawn between gods and primordials, but any individual entity can cross party lines and fight for the other side. Lolth, for instance, sought to destroy Corellon and the other Seldarine. Shar advanced the primordials' cause in so far as it moved against Selune and the greater cause of life in the world--though I suspect primordial creatures would have been harder for her to destroy ultimately. Talos might well have been more primordial than god, or a primordial entirely (Lightning).
The Twinning
When Ao split Abeir-Toril with the help of his counterpart--call her Xi (pronounced "she"), who got Abeir while Ao retained Toril--it was because the battle lines were so blurry in Abeir-Toril that all was going to be destroyed. Ao's consideration was not for mortals (or the potential for mortals)--as he has never given a whit about mortals--but he too is dependent upon worship (that of the gods and primordials) for his existence. Twinning the worlds (and separating himself from Xi, the only other being like him in existence) was his only option if he was to continue existing.
The gods and primordials were so intertwined in Abeir-Toril that the twinning was not a neat process. The four "classic" primordials were trapped in Toril, which I believe may itself have influenced mortal philosophy as regards elements (i.e., they believed air, fire, earth, and water were the four basic elements because those were the most powerful in Toril because of the trapped primordials). Other primordials or primordial-like beings (such as Talos, Maegera, Ghaunadaur and others) were similarly trapped in Toril, though some of them remained free to be worshipped as gods or made their way to other planes of existence to expand their powerbase. The one place they could not go, however, was Abeir--not with Ao's ban in place.
I think a little bit of Ao existed in Abeir, and a little bit of Xi existed in Toril--the two overgods formed a yin/yang sort of relationship, existing in balance with neither quite able to escape or overwhelm the other.
What about Shar?
As for Shar--I don't think Shar is really a goddess or a primordial. Not at heart, anyway. She's something else. Gods are beings that channel the power of the cosmos, and primordials are the spawn of that power. Shar, on the other hand, is the personification of non-existence. She is the dark shadow of life--not death, but never having been born in the first place.
Yes of course there are cults and a huge organized religion set up to worship her, but one doesn't actually have to be a god to have adherents. Look at Ao, for instance.
I think Shar is a proto-overgod. She may seem like a goddess now, but that's only until she has enough power to challenge Ao. She may *be* this mysterious "Xi" character I talked about--Ao's counterpart, given Abeir to rule over. The hugely powerful goddess we know and love/hate in Toril is, in actuality, that tiny balancing echo of Xi from Abeir. And the only reason she didn't reduce Abeir to nothing was that she couldn't--she still had Ao's influence in her, and Abeir was inextricably dependant upon Toril for its existence or non-existence. In order for Abeir to cease existing, so would Toril have to cease.
The Conjunction
When the Spellplague happened, unraveling the Weave Ao had set up to twin the worlds, Abeir and Toril came back together violently, before Ao could once again separate them. This also saw the return of Xi, who finally had the chance to destroy all creation in the Realms. Without the Weave, Ao has spent the last century holding the worlds apart and keeping Xi in check--that's why he's seemed absent for so long. And for the first time, Ao really needs mortal heroes to fix what has been undone, before his own strength fails and Xi defeats him and destroys everything.
Just some thoughts!
Cheers
I'm following this (I think) and a lot of it sounds like great storytelling material. Shar's extraordinary powers in comparison to others makes sense, but I have always thought that Shar and Selûne were opposites. So, if Shar has great power, so, too, does Selûne. With respect to canon, it is explicitly stated that Ao is not dependent upon worship of any kind. The gods seem to fear him and/or hate him, but I see no evidence of any god liking him at all in any of the writings. That's where his dependency upon worship by the gods gives me pause.
With respect to a previous post: I read Ed's books on Elminster the day they were released, and I'm glad that Mystra is in Ed's capable hands... but it still seems odd to me that Ao didn't have some type of contingency if the Weave's guardian became incapacitated. One example I cite is that the Weave did not collapse when Helm imprisoned Mystra in Crucible, and (again) the Weave did not collapse when the first Mystra died. It did...reboot...when Mystryl died, which was a neat way to discuss the fall of Netheril.
I'm still unsure of the primordial thing. Lathander would almost certainly tap power, then, from Kossuth. Their alignments are oppositional. Auril isn't really a primordial, because she's "the Frost Maiden." Cold is the natural state of things in the absence of heat. Frost requires both cold air (no Kossuth) and water (Istishia) to be present. The Realms have never had a god(ess) of air. Aside from Kossuth, both Grumbar and Istishia are true neutral. Could we have a hitherto-unknown air primordial appear? Sure. But as you said, Erik, all of the gods start to become primordials, which challenges Ao's creation of the Balance.
I do like where this idea is heading... and like all good things, each iteration becomes better than the last. The key to its success will be WoTC publishing novels that support the final outcome, and also allow and encourage novels to be published in any era. Pardon my crude analogy, but 1E --> 2E --> 3E were all small changes. A few people died, a lot of content was added, and I still felt at home. I could write off the deaths as "really old relatives" dying. 4E was akin to almost all of my relatives on a plane that crashed; I no longer recognized the world. The analogy can easily be broken apart, but it captures how I felt when 4E came out.
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 16:50:46
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Hi Erik,
Is Xi something you just made up, or is he/she/it supported by other lore? Also, there is established lore that Seluné and Shar are sisters, and that Mystryl was born of the conflict between them. How does that fit into your above lore?
Thanks,
Hawkins |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e)
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