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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 20:54:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
No doubt the adventures mean something to the players that play them.
However (daring to speak for Mournblade here) what I think is meant by “mean something” is “mean something in the larger context of the Spellplague.”
It did! It stopped the Spellplague from happening a whole decade sooner  . But I get what you mean, I just don't know if adventures should have that sort of campaign/plot power? Really, you can take any adventure WotC put out and say that it's ramifications were important. Speaking of which, what plot was involved with the tail-end adventure Expedition to Undermountain? I had though it was a Realms-specific product, but from the outside pic it doesn't appear so. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 02:57:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
No doubt the adventures mean something to the players that play them.
However (daring to speak for Mournblade here) what I think is meant by “mean something” is “mean something in the larger context of the Spellplague.”
yes that is exactly what I mean:) thank you for clarifying.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 03:06:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
No doubt the adventures mean something to the players that play them.
However (daring to speak for Mournblade here) what I think is meant by “mean something” is “mean something in the larger context of the Spellplague.”
It did! It stopped the Spellplague from happening a whole decade sooner . But I get what you mean, I just don't know if adventures should have that sort of campaign/plot power? Really, you can take any adventure WotC put out and say that it's ramifications were important. Speaking of which, what plot was involved with the tail-end adventure Expedition to Undermountain? I had though it was a Realms-specific product, but from the outside pic it doesn't appear so.
Diffan the 3in adventures are ofcourse fun, but what I mean is the mechanism used to transition to 4e seems to be nearly what thwarting the black chronology would prevent. Honestly, though of all people I am surprised to read you do not think adventures should contain canon weight. I think a written adventure in canon should be assumed to succeed in general canon. It is a good way to have your characters 'change' published canon. Illusionary as that may be.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 04:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Diffan the 3in adventures are ofcourse fun, but what I mean is the mechanism used to transition to 4e seems to be nearly what thwarting the black chronology would prevent. Honestly, though of all people I am surprised to read you do not think adventures should contain canon weight. I think a written adventure in canon should be assumed to succeed in general canon. It is a good way to have your characters 'change' published canon. Illusionary as that may be.
Man, the internet bug ate my post  . It was a pretty lengthy reason why I don't put too much emphasis on how Adventures affect Canon or why they should. Suffice to say, as you mentioned a Canon-based adventure already has the plot and resolution finished. Sure, if they're not met it'll change what happens in your game and that breaks from what happens in Canon but then...what's the point of Canon again if things don't match up?
I also had some very interesting theroies of PC going back in their homebrew games and stopping the Spellplague post the 3-part megaa-adventure and then it hit me: What if the Spellplague was the lesser of two evils? What if PCs WERE there to stop it, or contacted certain deities to stop it but realized that a fate much worse would happen? Now, of course I'm going to go along the Cthulhu-esque lines with strange extra dimensional monsters that eat magic and destroy worlds and the Weave was looking SUPER tasty. The only alternative was to destory it or Realmsspace was doomed! At least that's better (IMO) than Shar being greedy and mean and Cyric ganking her in her home-plane being the only motives for it happening.
At least we, as the audience, wouldn't know the true reasons for the Death of Mystra (perhaps she knew all along and was willing to make the sacrifice because of the greater threat) because Shar is the deity of secrets and all. I like this line of thinking much much more, it puts the Spellplague in a better perspective and makes fans say "Oh! Well if THAT was going to happen to the Realms, better the Spellplague happen than being swallowed whole by a giant space worm possing as a black-hole!"
Don't take that to mean it's what I intend, just an exmaple of something worse than what did happen is all. We can always add TO the Realms, and it's much harder to take away without stepping on 1,000 toes. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 13:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Diffan the 3in adventures are ofcourse fun, but what I mean is the mechanism used to transition to 4e seems to be nearly what thwarting the black chronology would prevent. Honestly, though of all people I am surprised to read you do not think adventures should contain canon weight. I think a written adventure in canon should be assumed to succeed in general canon. It is a good way to have your characters 'change' published canon. Illusionary as that may be.
Man, the internet bug ate my post . It was a pretty lengthy reason why I don't put too much emphasis on how Adventures affect Canon or why they should. Suffice to say, as you mentioned a Canon-based adventure already has the plot and resolution finished. Sure, if they're not met it'll change what happens in your game and that breaks from what happens in Canon but then...what's the point of Canon again if things don't match up?
I also had some very interesting theroies of PC going back in their homebrew games and stopping the Spellplague post the 3-part megaa-adventure and then it hit me: What if the Spellplague was the lesser of two evils? What if PCs WERE there to stop it, or contacted certain deities to stop it but realized that a fate much worse would happen? Now, of course I'm going to go along the Cthulhu-esque lines with strange extra dimensional monsters that eat magic and destroy worlds and the Weave was looking SUPER tasty. The only alternative was to destory it or Realmsspace was doomed! At least that's better (IMO) than Shar being greedy and mean and Cyric ganking her in her home-plane being the only motives for it happening.
At least we, as the audience, wouldn't know the true reasons for the Death of Mystra (perhaps she knew all along and was willing to make the sacrifice because of the greater threat) because Shar is the deity of secrets and all. I like this line of thinking much much more, it puts the Spellplague in a better perspective and makes fans say "Oh! Well if THAT was going to happen to the Realms, better the Spellplague happen than being swallowed whole by a giant space worm possing as a black-hole!"
Don't take that to mean it's what I intend, just an exmaple of something worse than what did happen is all. We can always add TO the Realms, and it's much harder to take away without stepping on 1,000 toes.
This is why at this point I am willing to work with the spellplague. I felt the 4e transition was subtractive to the realms. OK that mistake was made, now lets see if we can merge the '2 realms' without killing anybodies game.
I actually like your idea alot. My current campaign has one group of 2 players. They are 30 level epic. The mage of the group got foresite of the spellplague and have left current day faerun to travel the planes and time (using lost empires and arcane age) to find ways to avert or heal the plague. Basically I am running this epic game once every months until I find out what realms 5e is about. Then I can merge their story with ours and make these PC's the reason 5e realms came about.
I just do not like running golarion adventures nearly as much as I like running the realms. So I am here to stay regardless I think.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 28 Feb 2012 13:34:57 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 13:36:24
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If there are any words or phrases in your quote you didn't write I apologize Diffan. I posted from my droid and somehow landed my post in the MIDDLE of your quote. I had to log on to a PC to fix it.
I think it is fixed. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 14:59:30
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It's all good Mournblade.
I hear Golarion adventures are pretty easy to convert into Realms adventures with a few changes here and there. But that's getting off-topic.
I agree that we need to merge the pre- and post-Spellplague Realms, but going about that is something different alltogether. For myself, I like the idea of issuing a "No set Campaign date." This means that all Forgotten Realms products should have times, hooks, and plots to do stuff in them that are intertwined with the Setting and let the players/group decide where to go from there. Perhaps they follow the Canon storyline or perhaps they do something else, give that illusion of them changing the Realms from what they accomplish.
I think Canon should remain as is, and that includes keeping the Spellplague. But that doesn't mean there can't be ideas, side-bars, and notes that details what might have happend if things have gone differently. But basing FR-D&D:next on what was done for the past 30 years in the Realms (the whole thing, not just parts some like) is the way to go IMO. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 16:19:57
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I think this "future is doomed" thing is overstated. If you set a game before the Spellplague, that instantly removes the certainty that the event will happen. Just as with the Time of Troubles, the return of Shade, or the war in Sembia. Sure, we know canonically what will happen if events are left unchecked, but PCs *do things*... of course they will change the course of history. The Spellplague could happen for totally different reasons or not at all.
Free your minds, people! Your imagination is so much stronger than what you read in some sourcebook.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 17:04:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think this "future is doomed" thing is overstated. If you set a game before the Spellplague, that instantly removes the certainty that the event will happen. Just as with the Time of Troubles, the return of Shade, or the war in Sembia. Sure, we know canonically what will happen if events are left unchecked, but PCs *do things*... of course they will change the course of history. The Spellplague could happen for totally different reasons or not at all.
Free your minds, people! Your imagination is so much stronger than what you read in some sourcebook.
Cheers
Shhhhh.....! You tell them that and then they're going to start reading. Then they'll get ideas......which leads to thinking.....it's just not natural.
Aside from that, I agree with you 100%. Canon isn't a shackle to be locked to, it's a useful tool to be used as one sees fit and help fill gaps in things they like/don't like about a specific campaign set in the Realms.
Example: my group had been attempting to re-establish Neverwinter after Hotenow blew up (prior to knowing that would be made Canon). As such, fire salamanders teamed up with the Unseele Court (evil Fey), and Orc brutes to drive the rest of the human/good population from the city. The PCs went in to stop it and we're doing a great job of re-organizing the City, chasing Orcs, and putting a stick to the bad-guys plans. But then SOMEBODY (not naming names) had to go and put out a whole darn sourcebook about the city I was re-shaping. Filling it with all sorts of good lore, detailed maps (which looked NOTHING like my own, but were better  ), interesting NPCs, and loads of plot hooks to get involved in. So what did I do? I incorporated what I thought I could use, made slight adjustments to my campaign, and fit plots to where I needed them to go. Really, I ended up doing a lot of things differently but it worked wonders with the published stuff. Elements I thought weren't a good fit, I threw out or changed. Aspects that I had wanted (a dark school of magic brewing in the slums) was added without a second glance and ended up being an Evil-Hogwartz (haha, K through 12 Hosttower of the Arcane school).
Suffice to say, use what you like. Disgard what you don't. Make established Canon work for you, not something that needs be a mandated requirement for campaigns. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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The_Orconian
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 18:26:58
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You just insinuated that fans of prior editions are stupid 
I used to be a regular over at the WotC boards and I remember them adding Ed and returned abeir in at the last minute as well. I guess we really must be stupid |
Orcs am gewt peeble |
Edited by - The_Orconian on 28 Feb 2012 18:27:44 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 18:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think this "future is doomed" thing is overstated. If you set a game before the Spellplague, that instantly removes the certainty that the event will happen. Just as with the Time of Troubles, the return of Shade, or the war in Sembia. Sure, we know canonically what will happen if events are left unchecked, but PCs *do things*... of course they will change the course of history. The Spellplague could happen for totally different reasons or not at all.
Free your minds, people! Your imagination is so much stronger than what you read in some sourcebook.
Cheers
I entirely agree... but my point has always been that, as soon as a DM undoes an event like the Spellplague, a significant portion of any new "official" lore becomes useless... and players aren't going to buy books that consist in significant part of material they can't use. I agree entirely that a lot of lore will be RSE-independent. It's the retcons, not the RSEs, that mess with the lore.
I think that the big sticking point here is that, while setting a game "in the past" removes certainty, it also removes the value of the later material in the DM's eyes. This is why I think WotC would do well to provide us with "alternate scenario" publications. One book on FR in 1360 without the ToT, one book on FR in 1375 without the Return of Shade, and one book on FR in 1390 without the Spellplague. That's all I'm asking for. I think they'd sell... because the point of using a published campaign setting is not to have to create the world, and the more versions of the world we have as DMs, the less work we have to do on the "big picture" ... and this allows us to focus on the details that make the individual campaigns come alive for their players. Just a thought... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 18:39:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Suffice to say, use what you like. Disgard what you don't. Make established Canon work for you, not something that needs be a mandated requirement for campaigns.
I agree... and this is why WotC will have my full support for anything they produce pre-1385 or alternate-timeline-ish. And if people had listened to this advice back in 2005, we wouldn't even have had the Spellplague. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 18:59:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Jakk: yes, WotC said that before. I see their tone being very different now.
That wouldn't surprise me; they've also backpedalled on the idea of D&D Next as a backward-compatible ruleset construction kit, which is unfortunate, because it's exactly the way to go. Otherwise, they might as well just call it 5th Edition, because that's all it is... and if they really wanted to bring us back, the backward-compatible modular approach is exactly the way to go.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Wooly: Do the novels need to advance the timeline or just expand/develop the world? A lot can be done to develop the realms without changing it drastically, and there are all sorts of secrets to be explored and uncovered. Drizzt doesn't advance the timeline by his actions--his stories are relatively small-scale/personal and sometimes explore events we already knew happened, albeit not how (ie foundation of Many-Arrows, Neverwinter's doom, etc). I see such novels as warm and lively and breathing that into the setting.
I agree on all points, but every time WotC has had the opportunity to build even a bicycle instead of reinventing the wheel, they've chosen the latter route. I see no reason to expect this to change now, except for the fact that, in a Realms in which the Spellplague has happened, there's nothing of interest to me in Faerun outside of Cormyr, Waterdeep, and the Dalelands. If they'd realized that "a lot can be done to develop the realms without changing it drastically, and there are all sorts of secrets to be explored and uncovered" before "changing it drastically" this whole scroll would be unnecessary.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@general: I don't think the setting needs to be pressing constantly forward from a particular timestamp in order to be dynamic and interesting. You just keep exploring the vast mysteries that are already there--you don't have to keep changing everything. And especially if you're looking at multiple eras, the Realms has a LOT to explore.
I agree on all counts... see my previous comments.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 19:32:44
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The Abeir + Toril = Abeir-Toril thing doesn't contradict canon, as I see it.
Look at this as an analogy. We have Earth, the place where we all live. But in a fantasy story, we have an alternate earth--say, the place where Harry Dresden lives and fights evil wizards and arcane horrors in Chicago. In both stories, the planet is referred to as "Earth."
Apply this to the Realms. We have the one we're more familiar with (the Abeir-Toril that contains Faerun, Kara-tur, Maztica, etc, which most inhabitants refer to as just "Toril"), and also the alien one (the Abeir-Toril that contains Tymanther, Akanul, etc, which most inhabitants refer to as just "Abeir"). Then of course the Spellplague happens and the worlds briefly conjoin (something that has happened before countless times in fantasy--I'm thinking mostly of the Grand Conjunction, but that's 'cuz I'm an old Ravenloft fan), and parts of those lands swap into the other world.
Just because we didn't know "Abeir-Toril" referred to two twin alternate worlds (what we now call "Abeir" and "Toril") doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense. I know the official explanation was that Jeff Grubb wanted to put the name of the world first in the index, but that isn't a lore explanation for why the name is what it is. Having the twin worlds is just going back, taking that little story hook, and crafting a clever explanation.
To me, this makes sense. It also girds us against having to incorporate too much backstory about primordials and the Dawn War and things into the Realms we know, as most of it applies to Abeir, rather than Toril. I for one am interested to see some challenges to the gods' general monopoly on events in the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by The_Orconian
You just insinuated that fans of prior editions are stupid
I used to be a regular over at the WotC boards and I remember them adding Ed and returned abeir in at the last minute as well. I guess we really must be stupid
Certainly not the case!
It is extremely easy to feel shackled to canon. It's a matter of perspective, not intelligence--it doesn't matter what any of your ability scores are. Previous editions (including 3e and 4e) have unintentionally fostered the impression that the only FR games of worth are ones that obey canon strictly, i.e. are "canon" games. The problem is, there's no such thing as a "canon game"--unless every single character is a novel or sourcebook character, all events happen as outlined in canon, and exactly as they're outlined in canon. Every attack is identical to what you read in a novel, every spell, etc.
I guess you could in theory play a game like this, but the vast majority of us want to create our own characters and tell our own stories, and the second you do any of that, your game breaks from "canon." I'm sorry, but it's true. You may vary only a little from canon (i.e. your PCs do the events depicted in canon) or a lot (major events portrayed in canon don't happen in your game), but regardless, you are NOT playing the canon Realms.
Because the canon Realms isn't a place where people play--it's a snapshot. You take what you see, interpret it your own way, incorporate what you like, ignore or downplay what you don't, and USE IT to tell your story.
If someone were actually playing "the canon Realms," then probably what would be happening is that you're playing the undeveloped future, and every action of your characters (PCs and NPCs) and every event, etc., then becomes canon. But this would be a terrible way to develop canon--not everyone is going to like everything that one group of adventurers likes. Canon is far better developed as the output of hundreds of different minds, telling smaller stories and weaving story hooks you can then pick up in your games or ignore, at your whim.
Canon is a useful tool as a background, and as a medium for discussion. When we say "FR Canon," we know we're all talking about the same thing.
As part of character design, your DM might say "my game strictly obeys canon," which means "all the events in the sourcebook happened as listed," so you can incorporate them into your character's background. If the DM is open to bending/breaking canon, that also affects your background--say the DM loves Myrkul and wants to keep him around as god of the dead, which is relevant to your cleric of death. Or say you want your character to be a rival of Drizzt Do'Urden in Menzoberranzan who wasn't discussed in the Dark Elf books--if the game is strictly "canon," you can't do that, but your DM might allow it.
Canon is just a tool for your games. You the DM are the arbiter of what will be used and what won't.
And you can't even absolutely accept every canon strictly, because there are parts of canon that contradict each other. This is part of the purpose of this scroll, to identify those points of conflict and find a way past them.
For the actual novels and sourcebooks, the canon is both a goal (the products build and develop it) and a tool for keeping everything together. It is a necessary communication medium for maintaining an IP like the Realms. When the call comes to write a FR novel, or design in a particular FR city, or edit anything FR, the canon is there to dictate how things work. FR products are allowed to bend canon a little (reveal something that wasn't previously known, etc), though they still have to obey canon--they cannot break it, because that's counter-productive.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 19:38:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Suffice to say, use what you like. Disgard what you don't. Make established Canon work for you, not something that needs be a mandated requirement for campaigns.
I agree... and this is why WotC will have my full support for anything they produce pre-1385 or alternate-timeline-ish. And if people had listened to this advice back in 2005, we wouldn't even have had the Spellplague.
Agreed, and on your later comments as well. But the fact remains that this is what has happened, and we need to deal with it. Which is why this scroll is here.
What evidence do you have of "backpedaling," if I might ask?
And for as problematic as the Spellplague has proved to the Realms, I really think that some good came out of the 4e launch. It drew a lot of new people into the game, brought some new blood into the setting, and produced some new and interesting lore. Obviously, it erred in driving people away, but now we have an opportunity to keep the gains of 4e and gain back some of the old guard.
I'm really hoping that this does indeed happen, and I am very encouraged by the positive spin WotC is putting on the DnD Next project.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36884 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 20:00:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The Abeir + Toril = Abeir-Toril thing doesn't contradict canon, as I see it.
Look at this as an analogy. We have Earth, the place where we all live. But in a fantasy story, we have an alternate earth--say, the place where Harry Dresden lives and fights evil wizards and arcane horrors in Chicago. In both stories, the planet is referred to as "Earth."
Apply this to the Realms. We have the one we're more familiar with (the Abeir-Toril that contains Faerun, Kara-tur, Maztica, etc, which most inhabitants refer to as just "Toril"), and also the alien one (the Abeir-Toril that contains Tymanther, Akanul, etc, which most inhabitants refer to as just "Abeir"). Then of course the Spellplague happens and the worlds briefly conjoin (something that has happened before countless times in fantasy--I'm thinking mostly of the Grand Conjunction, but that's 'cuz I'm an old Ravenloft fan), and parts of those lands swap into the other world.
Just because we didn't know "Abeir-Toril" referred to two twin alternate worlds (what we now call "Abeir" and "Toril") doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense. I know the official explanation was that Jeff Grubb wanted to put the name of the world first in the index, but that isn't a lore explanation for why the name is what it is. Having the twin worlds is just going back, taking that little story hook, and crafting a clever explanation.
To me, this makes sense. It also girds us against having to incorporate too much backstory about primordials and the Dawn War and things into the Realms we know, as most of it applies to Abeir, rather than Toril. I for one am interested to see some challenges to the gods' general monopoly on events in the Realms.
I don't see the name of the world, stated as fact, as being a story hook. And when there is nothing previous to indicate sundered worlds and large-scale divine conflict between the gods and someone else, nor any reason to believe such was omitted from earlier info, then going back and adding something as huge as the War of Light and Darkness is a retcon. Now, if there were gaps where it was said "curiously, there's no info from right here" or "there are mentions of conflict, but information about participants has been obliterated" then I could buy it.
For me, if you want to add lore, there must be an open space to do it, nothing contradictory, and reason to believe the new information. In this case, we have open space, but other details from the same time frame don't offer any reason to believe info was omitted or overlooked, and nothing that grounds the info in prior lore or even meshes it in. How could other divine conflicts be known, and yet one of the biggest ones of all utterly unknown? |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 20:21:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
<snip>
What evidence do you have of "backpedaling," if I might ask?
I can't recall exactly where I read it now (somewhere here at CK)... I suppose "backpedalling" might be too strong a word, but when asked about the backward-compatibility angle, the WotC spokesperson said that they were looking to use the modular ruleset more to capture the "feel" of a 1e/2e/3e/3.5/4e game than to actually allow implementation of the different rulesets as "plugins"... which makes sense from a business perspective; you want your new products to sell, and if they're 100% compatible with any of the old material, people will just use the old material rather than shell out more cash. I just hope that the new ruleset is easy to convert old material to... or vice versa, depending on how I feel about the final product.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And for as problematic as the Spellplague has proved to the Realms, I really think that some good came out of the 4e launch. It drew a lot of new people into the game, brought some new blood into the setting, and produced some new and interesting lore. Obviously, it erred in driving people away, but now we have an opportunity to keep the gains of 4e and gain back some of the old guard.
I'm really hoping that this does indeed happen, and I am very encouraged by the positive spin WotC is putting on the DnD Next project.
Cheers
I have to agree on all counts here, Erik... and I've read here at the 'Keep some interesting ways in which they can "bring back" what was lost without having Elminster wake up from a nightmare in his safehold... which would be grotesque in the extreme (and, thankfully, clearly not the way Ed seems to be moving with his novels). That being said, I wouldn't complain overmuch if that is what happens, but, as you've said, there's some good lore out there for the new time frame. I've also seen some excellent ideas here for making the early 4e lore, the stuff that didn't smell like anything resembling roses, make much more sense, and I hope WotC takes these ideas into account. As much as I don't think it's necessary to have a central timeline that is continually advancing, I've grown used to the idea thanks to 1e/2e/3e. But I think a better idea is, as I've said earlier, to give us era-specific lore in the regional sourcebooks and then three era-based RSE sourcebooks (ToT, Return of Shade, Spellplague)... and then give us a picture of what the Realms would look like without each of those RSEs. Granted, they will impact each other; not having the ToT will significantly affect the Spellplague, including whether or not it happens at all, but I think Myrkul would be easy to swap in for Cyric here... mind you, that justification comes partly from lore that would be invalidated without the ToT... anyway, let's just say that I hope WotC is following our ideas here when it comes to the D&DNext Realms. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 20:38:07
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@Wooly: I guess I see a space to fill in the Dawn War cosmology, whereas you don't see a fill-in-the-blank space. This is one of those things earlier designers wouldn't have thought of, because it's not a Realms issue--it's a multiverse cosmology issue. Realms design has always been focused on the Realms, not really the cosmos. All campaign settings have their own cosmos and fine rules and such, and fr designers would have said "we're designing what's going on in the realms--what cosmology you choose to use can always be added on."
To explain away the lore: Toril was shielded from the Gods vs. Primordials issue for most of its history. The twinning of the worlds was part of that shield, and Ao crafted Toril as a refuge for the gods away from primordials. Thanks to the crash of the weave, the primordials have recently been able to penetrate the realms again (though several were already there, I think as the four pillars holding up the protective weave). The realms could in theory become a major battleground for them again.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36884 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 23:08:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Wooly: I guess I see a space to fill in the Dawn War cosmology, whereas you don't see a fill-in-the-blank space. This is one of those things earlier designers wouldn't have thought of, because it's not a Realms issue--it's a multiverse cosmology issue. Realms design has always been focused on the Realms, not really the cosmos. All campaign settings have their own cosmos and fine rules and such, and fr designers would have said "we're designing what's going on in the realms--what cosmology you choose to use can always be added on."
To explain away the lore: Toril was shielded from the Gods vs. Primordials issue for most of its history. The twinning of the worlds was part of that shield, and Ao crafted Toril as a refuge for the gods away from primordials. Thanks to the crash of the weave, the primordials have recently been able to penetrate the realms again (though several were already there, I think as the four pillars holding up the protective weave). The realms could in theory become a major battleground for them again.
Cheers
It's not as much that I don't see a space, as it is I don't see anything to indicate that there is this previously unknown lore in that space. In my mind, we need the space and reason to think there's more that. I see that space, and think that the boundaries are too defined to squeeze something so huge into there. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 03:41:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not as much that I don't see a space, as it is I don't see anything to indicate that there is this previously unknown lore in that space. In my mind, we need the space and reason to think there's more that. I see that space, and think that the boundaries are too defined to squeeze something so huge into there.
I think I hear you. I'm happy to be surprised, and somehow it just *fits* to me. The Prime Material Plane is vast, and there are countless versions of each world.
A random thing: I wonder if the alternate world we saw in the last Sembia novel is referring to Abeir. Anyone else think that's possible?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 03:52:59
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It would be more convincing that the twin worlds was more than just a convenient excuse to introduce dragonborn nations and primordials (bring realms in line with base 4e cosmology). If Abeir was detailed in a greater fashion. As of the 4e FRCs campaign setting, Abeir was only important in how it directly related to life on Toril. Since the barrier is down presumably mages and priest capable of visiting other worlds such as Greyhawk and Krynn could travel to Abeir and vice versa. All kinds of great ideas could be done with that, a Fringe style shadow war between worlds for one. It would also be interesting to see the difference between the world forged by the Primordials and the world created by the Gods. What is the life experience of a player character race in Abeir? And given that one of the major reasons for the 4e changes was giving the designers/authors more creative free space, a whole new world seems like a lot of free space.
Also, it seems like a war between Primordials versus Gods would kind of tend unify both factions. Again 4e FRCs campaign setting, does not indicate any current conflict between the Primordials and Gods. Certainly the Greek deities teamed up to kill off their competition before feuding. I don't know if any scribe is familiar with Sword and Sorcery's Scarred lands campaign setting, but a PvG war was the creation story. The war kind of lead to a unique relationship between the Gods given that the LG god of justice was fighting on the same side as the CE god. The issue with that approach is whether it is desirable to have stuff like the Selune vs Shar rivalry overshadow by the Gods vs Titans err....I mean Primordials . In general, if the primordials are going to be a force in the setting, they need more definition.
Also, is the primordial's concept making the jump to D&D next? Over on the WotC boards a few weeks ago, there was talk about a return to the great wheel cosmology. Is Realms going to follow suite with whatever core does, or is the cosmology going to remain? |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 29 Feb 2012 03:55:10 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 03:57:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Wooly: I guess I see a space to fill in the Dawn War cosmology, whereas you don't see a fill-in-the-blank space. This is one of those things earlier designers wouldn't have thought of, because it's not a Realms issue--it's a multiverse cosmology issue. Realms design has always been focused on the Realms, not really the cosmos. All campaign settings have their own cosmos and fine rules and such, and fr designers would have said "we're designing what's going on in the realms--what cosmology you choose to use can always be added on."
To explain away the lore: Toril was shielded from the Gods vs. Primordials issue for most of its history. The twinning of the worlds was part of that shield, and Ao crafted Toril as a refuge for the gods away from primordials. Thanks to the crash of the weave, the primordials have recently been able to penetrate the realms again (though several were already there, I think as the four pillars holding up the protective weave). The realms could in theory become a major battleground for them again.
Cheers
It's not as much that I don't see a space, as it is I don't see anything to indicate that there is this previously unknown lore in that space. In my mind, we need the space and reason to think there's more that. I see that space, and think that the boundaries are too defined to squeeze something so huge into there.
-Agreed with Wooly. Organic direction, or organic flow, or something like that, is how I used to describe what we're talking about- I'm losing my memory at a rapid pace at a young age, so I don't know anymore. But anyway, it's not that the insertion of the Dawn Cataclysm Wars, and Primordials, and 'Abeir' and 'Toril' being two separate entities and whatever else don't have in-setting explanations and development that pan out when put under the microscope. It's the fact that, when you look at everything chronologically in a metagame sense, their insertion does not feel organic.
-For example, the 5e Forgotten Realms book say that tens of thousands of years ago, the planet was completely barren. At some point, a meteor came crashing down on the planet containing a Lavos-like (Chrono Trigger) entity that burrowed into the planet's core, slowly eating away at it. The impact created a cataclysm that wiped out the advanced society of psychic talking dogs that inhabited the planet before it's arrival, in the prehistorical mists of time. It was through a chance sneeze by the alien creature that space bacteria flew into the air from the it's nasal passages, acclimated themselves to the planet, and evolved into Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and everything else that now lives on the planet, from the moment after impact and the extinction of the psychic talking dogs to the present. Nothing in the lore that we have in the entirety of the Forgotten Realms says that this is an impossible scenario- to the best of my knowledge, it doesn't overturn any concrete lore or anything like that (I generally tend to view things such as "Such and such deity magically created such and such race" with a grain of salt, anyway). Nothing says that this scenario is impossible and can't happen without turning boatloads of history on it's head. It certainly is a bunch of new lore that doesn't feel organically derived from the sum total of lore we have. The planet actually having a twin that was created for deities-who-actually-aren't-deities-but-close-enough and then shielded and hidden away for posterity doesn't feel organically evolved from the sum total of Realmslore we had prior to those things being added in.
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Also, is the primordial's concept making the jump to D&D next? Over on the WotC boards a few weeks ago, there was talk about a return to the great wheel cosmology. Is Realms going to follow suite with whatever core does, or is the cosmology going to remain?
-I would guess it's way too early to tell. If I had to guess, I would imagine it would stay true to whatever the core books do. I would prefer that it didn't, and simply maintained it's own cosmology like Eberron- even if that cosmology very closely matched the core stuff, but not exactly. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerűn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerűn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 29 Feb 2012 04:02:01 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 04:48:04
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Well, the gods in the Realms have been isolated from the primordials for so long, some weren't even gods when this stuff went down. The Dark Three, for instance (Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal) never encountered any primordials--or at least never in any organized fashion. Since the "beginning" of Toril--i.e., since the twinning--the gods have been safe in their own world, without having to worry about Primordial interference. Over such a long time, they could certainly have forgotten or just assumed they would never face a primordial threat again. It's only been very recent that the primordials have been able to have an impact on Toril again (in 1385, less than 100 years ago). The four primordials in the Realms (who I speculate were part of the protection Ao wove over Toril to keep the primordials away) thought of themselves as gods until knowledge of the primordials returned to Toril, and the elemental four suddenly could be identified as what they really were: primordial beings, rather than gods.
It makes me wonder if Ao's strategy of "twinning" the worlds was used elsewhere as well. Krynn seems pretty free of primordial activity, but then, it was without gods for a long time too. Maybe after the battle was done in Krynn, the gods and primordials both left the landscape, but only recently (relatively speaking) returned?
What about Athas? Is that a world claimed by the primordials, rather than gods? That seems likely to me.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 05:11:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Wooly: I guess I see a space to fill in the Dawn War cosmology, whereas you don't see a fill-in-the-blank space. This is one of those things earlier designers wouldn't have thought of, because it's not a Realms issue--it's a multiverse cosmology issue. Realms design has always been focused on the Realms, not really the cosmos. All campaign settings have their own cosmos and fine rules and such, and fr designers would have said "we're designing what's going on in the realms--what cosmology you choose to use can always be added on."
If something multiversal touches upon the Realms cosmology, then I'm all for having the "space to fill in" philosophy for designers. It's a design principle that reflects back to the "good old days" of 2e, when the Great Wheel connected practically everything D&D-related into a multiversal-whole.
The Dawn War is a particular multiversal plot-point that I've been curious about. And if developing it further means involving the Realms as well, then I don't have a problem with that. So long as it's worked into the Realms as a whole.
quote:
To explain away the lore: Toril was shielded from the Gods vs. Primordials issue for most of its history. The twinning of the worlds was part of that shield, and Ao crafted Toril as a refuge for the gods away from primordials. Thanks to the crash of the weave, the primordials have recently been able to penetrate the realms again (though several were already there, I think as the four pillars holding up the protective weave). The realms could in theory become a major battleground for them again.
I'd take this one step further and suggest that Ao -- in his own deceptive ways that only Creator Gods can accomplish -- ensured that it looked like Toril was "lost" during the Gods vs Primordials conflagration -- as a further protective measure. When the Weave collapsed, and the twinning of the worlds was revealed to the surprised Primordials, they were thrown into further rage and came clamouring for divine blood. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Feb 2012 05:14:05 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 05:12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A random thing: I wonder if the alternate world we saw in the last Sembia novel is referring to Abeir. Anyone else think that's possible?
I've yet to read the last "Sembia" novel. Could you elaborate on this?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 05:20:47
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I've been silent in this thread for awhile, and actually have something constructive to add now!
There's a discussion about canonicity, and whether "canon" games actually exist and whether or not it's just a matter of perspective.
From my perspective what distinguishes an FR fan from your generic D&D player of other settings is a *willingness* to be enslaved by the canon. Other fans don't really worry about the minutiae that Realms fans do. They are perfectly happy to make up their own inns, and tavern wenches, and whatnot. Not so with the Realms fans--they want the details because it makes them feel a part of an objective whole rather than a subjective self-created reality.
It's the absurd degree of detail and complexity (and the debates and appeals to Ed that they inspire) that differentiates the Realms from other settings. That's what made 4E hurt so much for so many.
So whether Canonicity is a healthy attitude for fans to have or not, I feel like it's already there. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 05:21:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, the gods in the Realms have been isolated from the primordials for so long, some weren't even gods when this stuff went down. The Dark Three, for instance (Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal) never encountered any primordials--or at least never in any organized fashion.
I would say, at most, that perhaps the Dark Three know only of "Primordial Legends," or, maybe, whatever Jergal [and his predecessors] might have shared with Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal.
quote:
It makes me wonder if Ao's strategy of "twinning" the worlds was used elsewhere as well. Krynn seems pretty free of primordial activity, but then, it was without gods for a long time too.
I think that has more to do with the vagaries of the post-War of Souls cosmology, and Takhisis' resultant shifting of the world of Krynn to another reality altogether. Certainly, when the gods rediscovered Krynn again, and the cosmology was "righted" once more, some hint of Primordial-influence may have bled through.
Regardless, the "primordial-era" of Krynn, and as an extension, Krynnspace, may have received less fallout from the Dawn War... simply because the gods of Krynn have largely always been separate from the multiversal deities of other worlds. They are almost entirely specific to the world of Krynn, and usually don't act as setting-specific aspects of core deities. Like Bane in the Realms, for example.
quote:
Maybe after the battle was done in Krynn, the gods and primordials both left the landscape, but only recently (relatively speaking) returned?
Hehe... Maybe Chaos was really a fragment of a primordial breaching through into the reality-space occupied by Krynn.
quote:
What about Athas? Is that a world claimed by the primordials, rather than gods? That seems likely to me.
I would say that Athas has long been abandoned by both. Perhaps because it was one of the earliest battlefields between the primordials and the gods? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 05:27:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, the gods in the Realms have been isolated from the primordials for so long, some weren't even gods when this stuff went down. The Dark Three, for instance (Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal) never encountered any primordials--or at least never in any organized fashion. Since the "beginning" of Toril--i.e., since the twinning--the gods have been safe in their own world, without having to worry about Primordial interference. Over such a long time, they could certainly have forgotten or just assumed they would never face a primordial threat again. It's only been very recent that the primordials have been able to have an impact on Toril again (in 1385, less than 100 years ago). The four primordials in the Realms (who I speculate were part of the protection Ao wove over Toril to keep the primordials away) thought of themselves as gods until knowledge of the primordials returned to Toril, and the elemental four suddenly could be identified as what they really were: primordial beings, rather than gods.
It makes me wonder if Ao's strategy of "twinning" the worlds was used elsewhere as well. Krynn seems pretty free of primordial activity, but then, it was without gods for a long time too. Maybe after the battle was done in Krynn, the gods and primordials both left the landscape, but only recently (relatively speaking) returned?
What about Athas? Is that a world claimed by the primordials, rather than gods? That seems likely to me.
Cheers
Krynn is certainly closer to 'standard' fantasy tropes than most TSR worlds (truly frightening, if you think about it), but as you said, have only recently come back to the planet they abandoned. This is also the schtick that SOE used in the Everquest II MMO. Post-Cataclysm seems to be the word in both of these instances. In almost all instances that come to mind, as far as D&D worlds go (and Everquest did make D&D-style gamebooks...I know, I have them) - not even the fairly stable Birthright milieu escapes it entirely (the Deismaar eruption).
Athas was a post-cataclysm wreck from the get-go (game setting-wise), and I think your theory about it being a primordial playground is spot on. After all, the only priests are elemental clerics, and the templars of the dragon-kings. Elementalists bypass any primordial authority and go straight to the element in question, though, so it's likely less of an issue there.
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 29 Feb 2012 05:28:34 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 07:48:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
What about Athas? Is that a world claimed by the primordials, rather than gods? That seems likely to me.
Athas was a post-cataclysm wreck from the get-go (game setting-wise), and I think your theory about it being a primordial playground is spot on. After all, the only priests are elemental clerics, and the templars of the dragon-kings. Elementalists bypass any primordial authority and go straight to the element in question, though, so it's likely less of an issue there.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I would say that Athas has long been abandoned by both. Perhaps because it was one of the earliest battlefields between the primordials and the gods?
I like both ideas, and they can both work. Gods came to Athas, where primordials were already well-established, and the gods were destroyed in the resulting conflict. The primordials, seriously weakened, retreated into the elements of the world that spawned them, and then something happened. Perhaps it was something like the Grand Conjunction, perhaps something like the Spellplague. Either way, the result was that the primordials were permanently imprisoned in the world. Over the following millennia, the life-force of these primordials fuelled the spells of the elementalist templars and the sorcerer-kings, and when they were drained dry, the land followed.
Just a sketch... and ymmv. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 29 Feb 2012 07:50:28 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 16:59:18
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Cool. I like Jakk's idea about imprisoned Primordials fueling the magic best. To me, it seems that when you're accessing an element, you are calling on a primordial (or a god, who is in turn taking that power from a primordial). But it's entirely possible that primordials serve a "filtering" purpose, much like Mystra and the Weave, making it easier for mortals to access the raw elements of the universe. With this filter destroyed or ignored, mortals could indeed access raw primordial energy, albeit in a different way than they were accustomed to.
This goes to my theory about the nature of magic. Spells, I believe, were developed first by the gods as a means to combat the primordials, who don't do "spells" so much as summon raw elemental energy through their connection with the elemental planes (i.e. elemental chaos). It seems to me that there must be a single power source (MAGIC) that allows them to do their thing, which was what the gods and primordials have always been fighting over, and they draw upon that source to give them the power necessary to use their spells and elemental manifestations. If you were to access this source directly, you'd be open both to gods and primordials, who are eternally at war over it. And this is exactly what has happened to spellcasters in the Realms since the Spellplague: they can now access magic DIRECTLY, without a god to filter it, and can come under primordial influence.
When it comes to the Realms, in the distant past Ao specifically set up Toril to be *free* of primordials, and Abeir to be *free* of gods--this was the only way to keep them from fighting. Basically, the Realms became two different worlds--Abeir and Toril--each with a different filtration system for bringing raw magic power to the creatures dwelling within it (whether they be primordials, gods, or mortals). Toril had Mystryl (and/or Lurue, depending on how you look at it) as this filtration system, and it worked pretty darn well for a long, long time. Mystryl (later Mystra) was tied into the great beyond-epic magic that kept the worlds apart. Enter the Spellplague when Mystra dies/disappears/doesn't come back, and the ward unravels, and the gods and primordials that have been separated so long are suddenly aware of each other, and now have to compete (once again) for the power source (MAGIC). I kind of think the advent of Tymanther and Akanul as well as the vanishing of Maztica* were part of a power struggle by the primordials in the chaos of the Spellplague, coupled with an actual revolution by the genasi and dragonborn against their primordial dictators. Returned Abeir I think is a plant--a beach-head from which the primordials mean to launch an invasion of Toril.
(*I would also include Halruaa in this listing. I don't think the magic kingdom was really destroyed at all--I think it was stolen away and the wool pulled over everyone's eyes.)
Thoughts?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 29 Feb 2012 17:00:54 |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e)
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