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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 16:55:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Fascinating analysis, Icelander. Simply answered, NO--I don't believe there is any lore in the 4e books that contradicts your idea. I confess I'm not as steeped in the ways of primordials as I could be--having only skimmed Plane Below and Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. I rather like your conception about gods and primordials being shaped by mortal belief, and a single being having the ability to fill either role as appropriate. (How very existentialist of you!)
Well, thank the Binder and the Scribe.
If the designers of 4e and those working on 5e can refrain from making any declarative statement about ultimate reality or deep pre-history inconsistent with prior lore, I might just be able to produce a cosmology unifying the Great Wheel, the 3e Realms and the 4e Realms one, as well as a Creation Myth and prehistory incorporating all canon up to now as well as providing explanations for what point of view to employ when positing that 'all racial creation myths are true from a certain point of view'.
In fact, doing some thinking, it seems that what I mostly have to do is write it. I already have an idea of it firm enough to be able to run games on the planes without flinching.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The Twinning
When Ao split Abeir-Toril with the help of his counterpart--call her Xi (pronounced "she"), who got Abeir while Ao retained Toril--it was because the battle lines were so blurry in Abeir-Toril that all was going to be destroyed. Ao's consideration was not for mortals (or the potential for mortals)--as he has never given a whit about mortals--but he too is dependent upon worship (that of the gods and primordials) for his existence. Twinning the worlds (and separating himself from Xi, the only other being like him in existence) was his only option if he was to continue existing.
A view, certainly. Another would be that dragons call the Creator Being Io. Sarrukh and scalykind call him Oroubouros. Why should not humans call him Ao?
Asmodeus, Jaziran, Orobouros, Io and any number of other fragments, what are they but aspects of the Eternal Circle? Because they are believed in, they attain an existence independent of it and even a personality reflective of their worshippers. In fact, light and darkness are merely one of the dualities that characterise the Encircling Cradler.
In one sense, the myth is true. Shar and Selune were created by something, of which that which humans call Ao is certainly a surviving fragment, in a way. In another, the myth starts at the wrong point. Their appearance was merely another itineration of the eternal cycle in which light follows darkness, darkness follows light and the interplay of opposites is what drives reality.
The modern conception of Ao as the ultimate arbiter and authority, meanwhile, is nothing but the collective consciousness of the 'deities' in Realmspace, given form and some limited personality by the mortal expectation (filtered through the deities, who acquire mortal viewpoints over time) that an authority was necessarily a person. There are certain rules, set by the conflicting desires and convergent needs of the gods, but because these desires and needs are inherent in their natures, which in turn is inherent in the Cycle-Without-End, these rules are immutable and unbreakable.
While it would be foolish to ascribe a gender to a primeval concept, deities that are worshipped seem to acquire all sorts of quirks. The Sisters of Selune and Shar may accurately be thought of as female and the same goes for their creation, the Earthmother, but only because they collectively assumed aspects of yin while the aspects of yang also inherent in the Worm-Without-End were embodied by such diverse concepts as Oroborous, Zotha/The Crystal Sun, the Stormstar and perhaps even the mythical lovers of the Earthmother before she knew the touch of the sun, though it is also possible that these were not of yang and their coupling did not therefore produce viable life.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
What about Shar?
As for Shar--I don't think Shar is really a goddess or a primordial. Not at heart, anyway. She's something else. Gods are beings that channel the power of the cosmos, and primordials are the spawn of that power. Shar, on the other hand, is the personification of non-existence. She is the dark shadow of life--not death, but never having been born in the first place.
While technically true, remember that this is only part of the truth. Selune and Shar do not fundamentally represent life and death. They are light and darkness in the widest senses and whereas Selune has spread her light widely and freely, losing her own power while building a strong and diverse group of allies, Shar has held on to much more of her own.
In a way, she is anti-life, but only through being anti-existence, which is a much broader concept. She does not only oppose the living, in which case she could be a profligate supporter of undead societies without fear of contradiction, but she desires a return to the utter void of non-existence.
However, these describe their initial natures. As soon as they become worshipped, even the relentless hatred of all that is that is Shar started to acquire anthropomorphic traits. She has slowly become, on the surface, at least, in interactions with mortals, that which she hates.
In the end, when she succeeds and the All returns to the Null*, I imagine that her triumph will be soured by the discovery within herself a fear of returning to nothingness once more. A cosmic irony which would amuse Mask greatly if he could witness it.
*Before the next Beginning.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The Conjunction
When the Spellplague happened, unraveling the Weave Ao had set up to twin the worlds, Abeir and Toril came back together violently, before Ao could once again separate them. This also saw the return of Xi, who finally had the chance to destroy all creation in the Realms. Without the Weave, Ao has spent the last century holding the worlds apart and keeping Xi in check--that's why he's seemed absent for so long. And for the first time, Ao really needs mortal heroes to fix what has been undone, before his own strength fails and Xi defeats him and destroys everything.
I profoundly dislike any suggestion that Ao may plan or desire or act. He reacts to violations of the immutable law, because that is in his nature. Ideally*, that is all he does.
That he would use mortal heroes to serve his ends I also dislike. The ends that Ao serves might be, in the end, served through mortal actions. Any entitity sufficiently connected to mortals to interact with them on a regular basis, however, would soon cease to be recognisably Ao the Overgod and become a servitor aspect of marginally more (demi)human-like nature.
*However, given that the gods have been long exposed to mortals and that Ao himself has appeared to mortals, whatever the pristine ideals of Ao as utterly impersonal, it is clear that he now has at least a glimmering of self. Any development which acceleration the development of a personality for him, however, would in my opinion presage an end of the current cycle, at least as far as Toril is concerned. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 17:33:13
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I still like Diffan's idea of somehow using the Anuaroch AP as a way to offset a worse fate than the spellplague.
I am not sure if the primordial idea will really work. What source book do I have to get inorder to get lore information on primordials? I have the first three 4e books already but I do not think they are there. I am afraid I cannot contribute that much because I do not know enough 4e cosmology. Nor do I know that much about spellplague lore, but I have the books so that is easy to fix.
Where is information on the dawn war? I am a subscriber to DDI now and I am trying to find more information. Are there source books with it?
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 17:35:36
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No luck on DDI. What search terms should I use to get some of this information if it is there?
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 17:44:06
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Originally posted by Azuth
I'm following this (I think) and a lot of it sounds like great storytelling material. Shar's extraordinary powers in comparison to others makes sense, but I have always thought that Shar and Selūne were opposites. So, if Shar has great power, so, too, does Selūne. With respect to canon, it is explicitly stated that Ao is not dependent upon worship of any kind. The gods seem to fear him and/or hate him, but I see no evidence of any god liking him at all in any of the writings. That's where his dependency upon worship by the gods gives me pause.
Well, we also have canon that says Ao is to the gods what the gods are to mortals. To me, this suggests that Ao is their god, and their love/fear is just as much a source of worship as anything Bane or Cyric or Shar get from their worshipers.
But I don't think what I said is actually dependant upon Ao being dependant upon the gods. As Icelander puts it, Ao acts to preserve the natural order of the world over which he is given stewardship. If this means "twinning" the world in order to preserve it, then I see no reason for him not to do so. Acting to preserve his own power just ascribes a somewhat selfish reason for him to act--it's not a necessary part of my scenario.
quote:
With respect to a previous post: I read Ed's books on Elminster the day they were released, and I'm glad that Mystra is in Ed's capable hands... but it still seems odd to me that Ao didn't have some type of contingency if the Weave's guardian became incapacitated. One example I cite is that the Weave did not collapse when Helm imprisoned Mystra in Crucible, and (again) the Weave did not collapse when the first Mystra died. It did...reboot...when Mystryl died, which was a neat way to discuss the fall of Netheril.
Lots of possibilities. Ao might be extremely powerful, but he is not all-knowing*--it's quite conceivable the goddess of secrets and the god of lies could deceive him. Ao also voluntarily binds himself not to interfere with gods who act in fulfillment of their portfolios: Cyric to murder, Shar to be secretive about it. This is a part of the natural order, which Ao is interested in preserving.
Also, if part of Xi exists within Shar, then that could explain how she managed to pull the wool over Ao's eyes.
Also, Ao might have let the Spellplague happen as a test for the gods, much like the Time of Troubles. He might have just sat back and watched chaos erupt from Shar and Cyric's hubris. He was fully confident in his power to hold back Abeir--which he (mostly) managed. Perhaps letting some of it slip in was part of his own desire to have Xi back.
*We have a tendency to think of gods as all-knowing, all-powerful, and infallible. But I think the FR gods are more like the Greek Gods, full of their own petty jealousies and making mistakes all the time. Ao may be more powerful and wiser than they, but this by no means makes him a perfect entity.
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I'm still unsure of the primordial thing. Lathander would almost certainly tap power, then, from Kossuth. Their alignments are oppositional. Auril isn't really a primordial, because she's "the Frost Maiden." Cold is the natural state of things in the absence of heat. Frost requires both cold air (no Kossuth) and water (Istishia) to be present. The Realms have never had a god(ess) of air. Aside from Kossuth, both Grumbar and Istishia are true neutral. Could we have a hitherto-unknown air primordial appear? Sure. But as you said, Erik, all of the gods start to become primordials, which challenges Ao's creation of the Balance.
First off, a given primordial is not *THE* representation of an element--it's only a spawn of that element. The element itself is either an inner plane (if you use the Great Wheel Cosmology) or part of the Elemental Chaos. The question is whether Lathander draws on Kossuth or just draws on the source of Kossuth's birth. Auril doesn't have to draw on Istishia and Akadi (the air primordial) per se--she just takes power from their sources of origin.
I do think that the presence of a primordial in a world allows the overgod (Ao in this case) to draw on its essence to create that world. So having the four core primordials in Toril allowed Toril to take the shape it has--as a normal, earth-like planet that supports life. Abeir, which has more primordials, is much more elemental and varied, but still supports life (because of the influence of Ao within Xi).
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I do like where this idea is heading... and like all good things, each iteration becomes better than the last. The key to its success will be WoTC publishing novels that support the final outcome, and also allow and encourage novels to be published in any era. Pardon my crude analogy, but 1E --> 2E --> 3E were all small changes. A few people died, a lot of content was added, and I still felt at home. I could write off the deaths as "really old relatives" dying. 4E was akin to almost all of my relatives on a plane that crashed; I no longer recognized the world. The analogy can easily be broken apart, but it captures how I felt when 4E came out.
I completely understand that. And that's the point of this thread--to reconcile the broken pieces of the world into something we can recognize and love again.
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
Is Xi something you just made up, or is he/she/it supported by other lore? Also, there is established lore that Seluné and Shar are sisters, and that Mystryl was born of the conflict between them. How does that fit into your above lore?
Xi is just something I thought up this morning, yes, but she makes an interesting tool to explain and reconcile a few things. Xi represents entropy, as Ao represents order. They are both True Neutral, yes, though I would suggest Ao leans more toward lawful/good (or more accurately, POSITIVE energy) whereas Xi is more chaotic/evil (NEGATIVE energy).
And what we have is an origin story about Selune and Shar and Mystra--not categorical, observable fact. But even so, we can take the spirit of this tale and tie it into my concept.
I see Xi's influence as the reason Selune and Shar split in the first place. When Ao twinned the worlds, Toril was a blank slate ruled by the gods that could be developed however. A piece of Xi remained in Ao's Realmspace, and it went into the heart of the Selune/Shar entity, fostering this conflict. The story went right along exactly as it is told in the Faiths and Avatars book, with Shar splitting away, whilst carrying a piece of Xi within her. This was the natural introduction of entropy into Ao's world--a natural part of order, and so something he would do nothing about. Also (if you want to ascribe something human to Ao), there was his own longing for a reunion with his counterpart.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
In the end, when [Shar] succeeds and the All returns to the Null*, I imagine that her triumph will be soured by the discovery within herself a fear of returning to nothingness once more. A cosmic irony which would amuse Mask greatly if he could witness it.
No doubt!
I believe as twisted and anti-life as Shar has become, a spark of life still exists within her--the ying to her yang or vice versa--from Selune, who bears part of her as well. It is this tiny fragment of hope that keeps Shar from succeeding (or just destroying herself), and will prove her ultimate undoing.
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I profoundly dislike any suggestion that Ao may plan or desire or act. He reacts to violations of the immutable law, because that is in his nature. Ideally*, that is all he does.
That's all I'm suggesting. His "twinning" and his actions with the Spellplague are all about preserving the immutable laws of the multiverse, which entailed stopping the war between gods and primordials (at least within his sphere).
quote:
That he would use mortal heroes to serve his ends I also dislike. The ends that Ao serves might be, in the end, served through mortal actions. Any entitity sufficiently connected to mortals to interact with them on a regular basis, however, would soon cease to be recognisably Ao the Overgod and become a servitor aspect of marginally more (demi)human-like nature.
I don't think he actually uses them--I'm just providing an opening for a really, REALLY epic quest.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 18:26:19
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@Mournblade: My understanding of the Dawn War comes primarily from Manual of the Planes, Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea, and Plane Below: Elemental Chaos. Not sure where you'd find infos on DDI.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 19:07:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, we also have canon that says Ao is to the gods what the gods are to mortals. To me, this suggests that Ao is their god, and their love/fear is just as much a source of worship as anything Bane or Cyric or Shar get from their worshipers.
That quote, though, is specifically meant to address the gulf in capabilities and the impossibility of actually comprehending the true nature and motives. I don't feel that imputing worship of Ao to anyone is warranted, and, indeed, I think that this goes against the spirit how Ed presented gods. While their natures are, in some ways, oddly human, from another perspective, they are strangely limited in their volition, with their scope for not only action, but thought circumscribed by the nature of their portfolios and thus, more fundamentally, by the purpose they serve and by the expectations of their worshippers.
Imaging the gods as simply large humans who happen to worship a more powerful god is not, in my opinion, a good way to utilise them as story elements. Instead, the design principle ought to be to allow for them to be used for a range of potential dramatic purposes. They ought to allow for characters and plotlines founded in a transcendental and earnest view of in-game religion, from the characters' point of view as well as that a successfully immersed audience, but they ought to allow as well the possibility of opposing their godly machinations and for mortals to have a chance of achieving that.
Positing them as fundamentally different in nature, yet bound by human imagination*, is in my opinion a good way to do this. One of the lynchpins of that approach is the need to avoid excessive anthropomorphism in those areas of godly existence ordinarily removed from mortal perceptions. In order to make the limitations imposed on gods by their acquired narrativistic nature into successful dramatic tools, we must not dilute the contrast with the essentially non-volitional nature of the deities in regard to serving their portfolios and carrying out their functions.
*Thus providing a logical in-game reason for them conforming to certain dramatic tropes as well as putting the actions of the PCs and other mortals like them in the forefront of importance.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Xi is just something I thought up this morning, yes, but she makes an interesting tool to explain and reconcile a few things. Xi represents entropy, as Ao represents order. They are both True Neutral, yes, though I would suggest Ao leans more toward lawful/good (or more accurately, POSITIVE energy) whereas Xi is more chaotic/evil (NEGATIVE energy).
The reason I dislike this interpretation is that it recasts the War of Light and Darkness as being between Ao and a new power, instead of preserving the already canonical and essentially the same explanation with different characters. Shar and Selune, as the unnamed and much-more powerful primeval concepts that they once were, pretty much embodied the conflict you are describing.
Selune is, at her core, positive energy. Shar, negative. They've both split of portions of this basic nature, Selune to a much greater degree, but there is absolutely no reason to assume that Ao embodies just one of them.
In fact, Ao should not care one whit whether mortals or even gods continue to exist. As long, that is, as they live or die by the rules that is his function to enforce.
Involving Ao as an active participant in divine politics is, in my opinion, making the dramatic device of an impersonal system of rules binding the hands of the otherwise almost omnipotent (from a mortal point of view) deities utterly meaningless. It removes what was otherwise a fairly straightforward mechanism for providing a logical justification for mortal actions being deeply meaningful in a cosmos filled with beings of infinitely more physical and magical might and reduces it to simply one more of these infinitely powerful beings.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
No doubt!
I believe as twisted and anti-life as Shar has become, a spark of life still exists within her--the ying to her yang or vice versa--from Selune, who bears part of her as well. It is this tiny fragment of hope that keeps Shar from succeeding (or just destroying herself), and will prove her ultimate undoing.
You have, in a way, hit on the core of mortal hopes for a longer future. Well, if we reverse the causality. It is not that mortals should hope that she has retained some vestiges of 'light', but rather that she as gained enough humanity. |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 19:32:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
That he would use mortal heroes to serve his ends I also dislike. The ends that Ao serves might be, in the end, served through mortal actions. Any entitity sufficiently connected to mortals to interact with them on a regular basis, however, would soon cease to be recognisably Ao the Overgod and become a servitor aspect of marginally more (demi)human-like nature.
I don't think he actually uses them--I'm just providing an opening for a really, REALLY epic quest.
Cheers
[/quote]
I disagree. Ao used Midnight, Cyric, Kelemvor, and Adon in the Time of Troubles. Remember, the Tablets of Fate meant nothing. The Gods erroneously believed they held Ao's power. I suspect Ao used the mortals to show the divine that they weren't as all-powerful as they thought they were. It isn't only a little ironic that three of the four are now gods.
As a player, I never much cared for how Cyric developed. I much preferred Bhaal as he was reminiscent of Artemis Entreri. Bhaal was cool and calculating. Cyric is just whiny. There are opportunities abound for mortals that the divine cannot comprehend. Because of, not inspite of, their ability to see things from multiple angles, mortals have an inherent advantage over the deities in the freedom to act as they wish. Well, that's my two copper, anyway.
Correction: I had forgotten about Akadi - my bad. Thanks for the correction, Erik.
Oh, and you're also laying the foundation for a really, really, amazing series of books, too! I need to have my agent reach out. 
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 19:52:00
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remember way back when.... the dawn cataclysm thing mentioned in the FR's ancient lore.
so I take it that its the dawn war mentioned in 4e???
well there is one thing i'd like to see toned downed as much as the plague and it would be to seal away the abolethic sovernty.....
really, did we really need that in the realms...... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 20:17:27
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@Icelander: Well, as I said, my scenario doesn't require the gods to worship Ao--it just gives him a motivation which he didn't really need. If he is an impartial judge and steward of the balance (which he seems to be), then preserving his area of responsibility is motivation enough for him to spark the "twinning" of the worlds.
Even if Ao is fundamentally in charge of the balance in both worlds--Abeir and Toril--then he still has definite motivation to end the fighting between gods and primordials if it threatens the laws of his realm of stewardship (i.e. threatens to destroy Realmspace).
As I said, the Xi thing is just a possible additive lore bit to present another possible "overgod," like Ao, but for Abeir instead. The concept was to play up the duality of yin vs. yang (which you yourself brought up in the thread), but if you don't see the need, by all means, we can pass the idea by as just one possibility of many.
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Ao used Midnight, Cyric, Kelemvor, and Adon in the Time of Troubles. Remember, the Tablets of Fate meant nothing. The Gods erroneously believed they held Ao's power. I suspect Ao used the mortals to show the divine that they weren't as all-powerful as they thought they were. It isn't only a little ironic that three of the four are now gods.
Did he, though? I don't think he had anything to do with any of the mortals in the Avatar series until the end of book 3 when the time came to elevate new gods to replace the old ones. Of course there are cults of Ao that say he takes an active interest in the lives of mortals, but I don't see him that way--and he doesn't see HIMSELF that way, as exemplified by the lack of divine spells granted, etc.
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Oh, and you're also laying the foundation for a really, really, amazing series of books, too! I need to have my agent reach out.
I'm liking the conversation too. It's certainly thought-provoking.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
remember way back when.... the dawn cataclysm thing mentioned in the FR's ancient lore.
so I take it that its the dawn war mentioned in 4e???
The Dawn Cataclysm and the Dawn War are not the same thing. Toril was without much mythology of the Dawn War, precisely because the world was twinned and most of that was sealed away long before mortals began to arise--before Selune and Shar split apart and formed Mystryl, even.
This does give something of a chronological hitch to my earlier discussion, or rather just brings up a question of "when did all of this happen?" I would suggest the following progression of events:
1) Rise of the Primordials and Gods
2) The Dawn War: Gods vs. Primordials threatens Realmspace
3) Ao "twins" Abeir-Toril, creating Abeir and Toril. Primordials are mostly sealed away in Abeir, Gods mostly in Toril. The gods (particularly Chauntea) are given a clean canvas to build upon. The Weave exists at this point, but it is wild and frayed and barely cohesive.
4) Normal cosmology as we know it: Selune and Shar split, Mystryl is formed, the Weave is strengthened and organized under the new steward, etc.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 20:53:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As I said, the Xi thing is just a possible additive lore bit to present another possible "overgod," like Ao, but for Abeir instead. The concept was to play up the duality of yin vs. yang (which you yourself brought up in the thread), but if you don't see the need, by all means, we can pass the idea by as just one possibility of many.
Indeed. But with both Selune and Shar embodying what is very much yin, just split into aspects mortals are predisposed to favour and those inimical to their existence, the idea of another counterforce of yin is somewhat strange. Ao isn't actually a plausible candidate for a personification of yang. He's not confrontational, he's not active, he's not even particularly imaginative. In fact, his masculinity, for lack of a better word, is profoundly neuter in nature, without hint of sexuality.
He represents, if at all, only the tiniest fraction of yang, the established authority of the paterfamilias. Even so, that conception of the male ideal is founded in a different context and actually contains both yin and yang in equal measure.
In fact, in many ways, Ao is characterised as the ultimate balance between yin and yang. Remember that creation isn't exclusively a masculine, yang attribute. It arises from the metaphorical conception that arises when they meet.
Toril's original creation history, with the War of Light and Darkness, clearly evokes the imagery of creation arising not from a single force, but from the interplay of two opposed yet mutually dependent ones. It distinguishes itself from any real world system, however, in that the dichotomy that defines it is different from the taoist perception of yin and yang.
What I'm doing is providing a way for all the views about the nature of reality in the Realms (and Planescape) to be true from a certain point of view. The War of Light and Darkness is established canon. So is the Way, in Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms, where the taoist worldview of yin and yang appear in print. The dragonic and sarruk legends of, respectively Io, Zotha, Null and co. on one hand and Orobouros on the other, are also canon. The nature of Ao likewise.
Obviously, I welcome alternate views. I would like, however, not to have to simply disregard prior lore with the adage that new lore trumps old, but rather try to reconcile them. As such, any cosmology advanced needs to be compatible with all editions and, ideally, all the different views in all the editions.*
Given the many disparate elements we already have to sort out, I feel that introducing new ones, particularly ones that appear to contradict the spirit of old lore, is not something to be done lightly. I'll do it if necessary, but I won't add something just to add it.
*If something clearly contradicts everything else and is also stupid, I might consider letting it slide as an error. But in extremis only.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The Dawn Cataclysm and the Dawn War are not the same thing. Toril was without much mythology of the Dawn War, precisely because the world was twinned and most of that was sealed away long before mortals began to arise--before Selune and Shar split apart and formed Mystryl, even.
This does give something of a chronological hitch to my earlier discussion, or rather just brings up a question of "when did all of this happen?" I would suggest the following progression of events:
1) Rise of the Primordials and Gods
2) The Dawn War: Gods vs. Primordials threatens Realmspace
3) Ao "twins" Abeir-Toril, creating Abeir and Toril. Primordials are mostly sealed away in Abeir, Gods mostly in Toril. The gods (particularly Chauntea) are given a clean canvas to build upon. The Weave exists at this point, but it is wild and frayed and barely cohesive.
4) Normal cosmology as we know it: Selune and Shar split, Mystryl is formed, the Weave is strengthened and organized under the new steward, etc.
Cheers
If this is stated, it is a major inconsistency. The FRCG specifically dates the Twinning to -31,000 DR or contemporary with the Tearfall. This is supported by there being dragons on both worlds and by the sarrukh in Okoth witnessing the event. In addition, the FRCG specifically cites the 'changing of the stars' recounted in GHotR, also dated to -31,000 DR, as the visible evidence of the Twinning. In addition, the War of Light and Darkness is stated in multiple 2e and 3e sources to predate and cause the existence of Abeir-Toril itself and the 4e FRCG also refers to it as predating the Dawn War.
If all of this is ret-conned away, I don't know how to reconcile it. I mean, this is the new 4e history, just added for this edition. Surely the same people haven't already ret-conned it away? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 21:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Obviously, I welcome alternate views. I would like, however, not to have to simply disregard prior lore with the adage that new lore trumps old, but rather try to reconcile them. As such, any cosmology advanced needs to be compatible with all editions and, ideally, all the different views in all the editions.*
Not to be obtuse, but that is exactly what I'm attempting. The entire point of this scroll is not to throw out prior lore--and I am grateful when you point out places where a suggestion does so, so we can avoid it.
All that really matters is that the world was twinned to thwart the war of the gods and primordials. Gods got Toril, Primordials got Abeir. When the Spellplague happened, that twinning failed--at least in part--and the worlds collided.
quote:
The FRCG specifically dates the Twinning to -31,000 DR or contemporary with the Tearfall. This is supported by there being dragons on both worlds and by the sarrukh in Okoth witnessing the event. In addition, the FRCG specifically cites the 'changing of the stars' recounted in GHotR, also dated to -31,000 DR, as the visible evidence of the Twinning. In addition, the War of Light and Darkness is stated in multiple 2e and 3e sources to predate and cause the existence of Abeir-Toril itself and the 4e FRCG also refers to it as predating the Dawn War.
Well, there's our answer then. I must have missed the actual *date* of the Twinning event. Thanks for pointing it out! 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 01 Mar 2012 21:43:27 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 22:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Not to be obtuse, but that is exactly what I'm attempting. The entire point of this scroll is not to throw out prior lore--and I am grateful when you point out places where a suggestion does so, so we can avoid it.
To be sure.
I merely refered to the fact that I found your hypothetical scenario to be at odds with my interpretation of a lot of 2e, 3e and 4e lore. Naturally, in the act of picturing a tapestry from a few furtive paws of its surface, my use of inductive reasoning to tease out facts not in direct evidence, not to mention my unabashed twisting of certain pieces of lore into 'true from a certain point of view' positions, is ripe with potential for error.
There is, in fact, every chance that I am wrong. That an interpretation of Ao as an embodiment of yang, defined in our cosmology as being less masculine, less aggressive and less active; opposed to an previously unknown female force that is an embodiment of yin which in this cosmology becomes synomous with entropy, is preferable to my hypothesis. However, I do not think that it is.
My objections are rooted, as noted earlier, in several areas.
I think that the aformentioned hypothetical divinities are poor fits for any kind of representation of yin and yang. We must keep in mind that these are not diametrically opposed forces of good and evil whose conflict must end in victory for either of them, but rather the fundamental duality of existence, both of which are necessary for life as we know it to exist. Yin and yang, in the Realms as elsewhere, must represent aspects of all beings and objects, divine and mortal, and it is through their contact that all creation happens.
I also believe that with the existence of Shar as the 'dark yin' power whose ultimate goal is to return all existence to the ultimate void, a new female entity with the same goal is dramatically and philosophically extraneous.
Furthermore, I find it hard to reconcile the addition of Xi to an already crowded Dramatis Personae with former canon lore. For example, what of the dragonic and sarrukh 'gods' who clearly represent some form of opposed aspects of the Enveloping Eternal, Asgoroth the World Shaper who tries to destroy Abeir-Toril and whose actions thus force Ao to intervene and Orobouros the World Serpent, the leader of the Elder Gods in the Dawn War with the Primordials?
These are 2e and 3e canonical players in the drama of the world's creation, mentioned as such in the FRCG, and an explanation which usurps their parts as well as the parts of Shar and Selune in favour of a conflict between Ao and Anti-Ao does not seem to me either the simplest possible hypothesis which is sufficient to explain all the facts or the best possible aesthetically-, philosophically-, narratologically- or ludologically-inspired choice.
Believe me, I would welcome either (or both) an attempt to change my mind by buttressing your hypothesis with further textual support and the eluciation of compelling artistic or ludological reasons to prefer it over mine, or alternatively your presentation of an antithesis to my own hypothesis. We are, after all, on a quest for synthesis.  |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 22:39:06
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It's a neat idea?
I do wonder if Ao is unique, or there are other overgods in other spheres of existence. Have we heard of any?
Honestly, it's not that big a deal. I just tossed out an idea to see what became of it. Alas, I really don't have the time or interest to indulge in a textually supported debate on such a hypothetical.
If you'd find the exercise interesting, you might turn your highly analytical mind to finding support yourself. It's a beginning philosophic exercise to "prove your own point," now "prove its counter-point."
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 01 Mar 2012 22:40:07 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 22:47:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I do wonder if Ao is unique, or there are other overgods in other spheres of existence. Have we heard of any?
Not that I recall, though Ao would appear to answer to one higher than even himself (as shown at the end of the ToT trilogy). |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 01 Mar 2012 22:47:52 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 23:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I still like Diffan's idea of somehow using the Anuaroch AP as a way to offset a worse fate than the spellplague.
I am not sure if the primordial idea will really work. What source book do I have to get inorder to get lore information on primordials? I have the first three 4e books already but I do not think they are there. I am afraid I cannot contribute that much because I do not know enough 4e cosmology. Nor do I know that much about spellplague lore, but I have the books so that is easy to fix.
I like the idea because it lessens how harsh the Spellplague was when compared to something far worse. What that something is, well I'll leave that up to the extreamly creative designers and novelists but I think if we, as the community, knew that the decision for Cyric and Shar to kill Mystra wasn't entirely self-serving and well....a bit shallow then I think a lot of people would be more willing to accept it. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 23:34:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I do wonder if Ao is unique, or there are other overgods in other spheres of existence. Have we heard of any?
To my knowledge, we have not.
My theory is that Ao is unique only in having even the glimmer of 'personality' and individualism that he has shown. Other spheres of existence have similar rules, but the force that upholds them has no resonance in mortal imaginations and therefore no anthropomorphic features such as shape, name or volition.
Why are the Realms different? One might theorise that the presence of a large number of observers on the outside, looking in at the world from a potentially near-omniscient, if poorly focused and distorted viewpoint, causes a tendency for secrets to be revealed and for all forces, even the most nebulous and impersonal, to be given a definition in anthropomorphical terms. And as we know by now, it is not only 'As Above, So Below', but also 'As Below, So Above'. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 00:43:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I still like Diffan's idea of somehow using the Anuaroch AP as a way to offset a worse fate than the spellplague.
I like the idea because it lessens how harsh the Spellplague was when compared to something far worse. What that something is, well I'll leave that up to the extreamly creative designers and novelists but I think if we, as the community, knew that the decision for Cyric and Shar to kill Mystra wasn't entirely self-serving and well....a bit shallow then I think a lot of people would be more willing to accept it.
I would be the first one in line to write that novel.
I also believe that Halaster's ritual (as seen in the 3.5 Expedition to Undermountain) was also important in staving off the worst effects of the Spellplague. I think he foresaw the cataclysm (though he didn't necessarily know what would happen) and took measures to prevent it--which didn't ultimately work, but might have had some effect. We do know that he was doing secret experiments related to the Spellplague . . . a bit of lore I myself introduced in the first D&D Encounters season, "Halaster's Lost Apprentice."
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 01:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Oh, right, I remember that one now... I don't think of that one as a Sembia novel, more as the first Erevis Cale novel. 
That would be news to Paul, no doubt, as Dave Gross was the author of that book.
http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Stormweather-Forgotten-Realms-Gross/dp/0786929324
Oops. Not the one I was thinking of... I really should look things up before posting. [b]Sage: Can we get a "foot-in-mouth" smiley for the boards? And can we get it before CK 2.0? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 01:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And I don't think the 4e Dawn War cosmology is incompatible with previous cosmology. But we're talking about the Realms here, not about the greater cosmos. I think of cosmologies as being less about canonical difference and more about paradigmatic difference. The Great Wheel, the Astral Sea, the Tree of Life--all of these perceptions of the universe are true . . . "from a certain point of view," as Alec Guinness would put it. The scope of the multi-planar multiverse is just too vast for us to understand it the same way we do one little material world like Abeir-Toril.
Cheers
I like it... and it's something that's been mentioned elsewhere in the Keep, but I couldn't tell you exactly where; I believe it was a thread Markustay and I were contributing to regarding the nature of divine actions as perceived by mortals... and this kind of fits into the same template; who can really comprehend higher spatial dimensions than three, and how infinite planes connect to one another in those higher dimensions, anyway? Just the concept of the infinite alone has driven greater RL minds than ours mad.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 01:12:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I do wonder if Ao is unique, or there are other overgods in other spheres of existence. Have we heard of any?
To my knowledge, we have not.
My theory is that Ao is unique only in having even the glimmer of 'personality' and individualism that he has shown. Other spheres of existence have similar rules, but the force that upholds them has no resonance in mortal imaginations and therefore no anthropomorphic features such as shape, name or volition.
All we really know about overgods in the greater D&D cosmology is that Realmspace has one, and he has a superior. Because he has a superior, it's reasonable to assume that he also has peers... but none of them have been mentioned anywhere in canon that I am aware of... and given the recent tendency to avoid mentioning Ao, I think the overgod concept is something that might disappear... perhaps Ao's connection to Realmspace was severed by the Spellplague and the rearrangement of the cosmos.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 05:48:23
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I was thinking about Erik's previous comment about Ao being to the gods as the gods are to mortals. This still doesn't make sense to me, because Ao "made" the gods and all of creation, in theory. The deities rule aspects of mortals lives, but the deities are not responsible for mortal creation.
I also agree with an earlier post that I would love to see the Abolethic Sovereignty disappear. For reasons I cannot fully explain, those books reminded me of extra-slimy beholders and yet another weird aspect I need to understand to run a canon-complete Realms game. Again, I would hope that Abeir and Toril can be "re-twinned" in 5E and characters that elect to play in that world may do so via portals and a supplement akin to what Kara-Tur was in 2E, but even more separated.
I was able to hone in a bit on why I disliked the 4E setting so much, and it is precisely because magic is a stranger thing than it was prior to the Spellplague. In simpler terms, it made Faerūn less "magical" and more mundane to me. I think that the success or failure of 5E is going to depend on a stable, "normal" Realms with modular components that can be added as the characters and dungeon masters wish. As was Maztica, Al Qadim, and Kara-Tur, and Spelljammer, too, I could play a complete game without ever needing purchase any of the supplements and still have my magical D&D game. 4E took that away from me, and forced me (and my players) to adapt to a totally different world, paradigm, and game play, or forced us (as we have chosen to do) to remain in the 3/3.5 era and watch the price on good quality 3E material increase on eBay.
So, while I've spent most of the day contemplating Ao, his deities, and primordials, I think that from a game focus, the canon needs to explain why the Spellplague was allowed to happen, do something to fix it for normal players, and allow its effects to be accessed via an expansion set. Toss in some specs on the 4E creatures in the inevitable monster manual for campaigns that wish to utilize them, but return to me as a player and as a DM a world wherein I at least have a framework upon which to orient myself and my players.
I'm not advocating a reboot at all...but if I'm going to give up Azoun, Vangey, the Seven Sisters, and more, it needs to be for a compelling reason and a Realms in which I feel at home.
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 05:53:10
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If that was my post.... I said seal them away..... its to late to make them disappear.
slimy beholders.... I'd rather have colassal beholders of your going to die a painful horrible death than flying fish.
that is an interesting look at it though Azuth... on magic anyway. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 02 Mar 2012 05:54:23 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 14:00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
I was thinking about Erik's previous comment about Ao being to the gods as the gods are to mortals. This still doesn't make sense to me, because Ao "made" the gods and all of creation, in theory. The deities rule aspects of mortals lives, but the deities are not responsible for mortal creation.
I also agree with an earlier post that I would love to see the Abolethic Sovereignty disappear. For reasons I cannot fully explain, those books reminded me of extra-slimy beholders and yet another weird aspect I need to understand to run a canon-complete Realms game. Again, I would hope that Abeir and Toril can be "re-twinned" in 5E and characters that elect to play in that world may do so via portals and a supplement akin to what Kara-Tur was in 2E, but even more separated.
I was able to hone in a bit on why I disliked the 4E setting so much, and it is precisely because magic is a stranger thing than it was prior to the Spellplague. In simpler terms, it made Faerūn less "magical" and more mundane to me. I think that the success or failure of 5E is going to depend on a stable, "normal" Realms with modular components that can be added as the characters and dungeon masters wish. As was Maztica, Al Qadim, and Kara-Tur, and Spelljammer, too, I could play a complete game without ever needing purchase any of the supplements and still have my magical D&D game. 4E took that away from me, and forced me (and my players) to adapt to a totally different world, paradigm, and game play, or forced us (as we have chosen to do) to remain in the 3/3.5 era and watch the price on good quality 3E material increase on eBay.
So, while I've spent most of the day contemplating Ao, his deities, and primordials, I think that from a game focus, the canon needs to explain why the Spellplague was allowed to happen, do something to fix it for normal players, and allow its effects to be accessed via an expansion set. Toss in some specs on the 4E creatures in the inevitable monster manual for campaigns that wish to utilize them, but return to me as a player and as a DM a world wherein I at least have a framework upon which to orient myself and my players.
I'm not advocating a reboot at all...but if I'm going to give up Azoun, Vangey, the Seven Sisters, and more, it needs to be for a compelling reason and a Realms in which I feel at home.
Azuth
I would like to see Canon unite the spellplague with regular realms at this point as well, and I would very much like the spellplague to just be an add on.
With that said, I switched to Pathfinder and it is exceedingly easy to run pathfinder Forgotten Realms. Even the Advanced Players guide classes. I am enjoying it even more than the Pathfinder base world. I like the cleanups pathfinder made and it has improved the realms.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 21:37:03
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I am a 100% proponent of systemless Realmslore.
People need to play what they like. I am completely down with playing Pathfinder in the Realms, playing 3.5 or 4e in the Realms, or playing Gurps in the Realms, playing Vampire the Masquerade in the Realms, or whatever you want to play in the Realms.
(And on that note, a Vampire the Masquerade game set in Night Mask-run Westgate would be AWESOME. Just saying. )
Personally, I like the mechanics in 4e. They're extremely liberating for the DM, and the players get to do more and cooler things than anyone short of 8+ level wizard could do in earlier editions of D&D. But I understand that not everyone likes that system.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 22:59:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I am a 100% proponent of systemless Realmslore.
People need to play what they like. I am completely down with playing Pathfinder in the Realms, playing 3.5 or 4e in the Realms, or playing Gurps in the Realms, playing Vampire the Masquerade in the Realms, or whatever you want to play in the Realms.
(And on that note, a Vampire the Masquerade game set in Night Mask-run Westgate would be AWESOME. Just saying. )
Personally, I like the mechanics in 4e. They're extremely liberating for the DM, and the players get to do more and cooler things than anyone short of 8+ level wizard could do in earlier editions of D&D. But I understand that not everyone likes that system.
Cheers
I don't necessarily disagree, although I'm not for WoTC actually creating rule books for other systems. I suspect that many people don't even know the mechanics of the 4E Realms because they can't get past all of the other changes. I liked 3.5, but many of my players (justifiably) scoffed at paying for a .5 release book given that 3E wasn't that old. Multiply that by tenfold to get their disdain for 4E Realms, and that was largely because "they killed my God" or "City X is gone!" I know for at least one of my players, the treatment of Elminster (by the 4E FRCG) was too much.
I bring these things up because if this edition is going to make (most) people happy, some of the things need to be "undone" somehow. Again, I'm liking the remerge/retwinning story as a way to explain the disappearence and remergence of many factors. It reminds me of the Disney movie Hercules, ironically, where Hades has all of the other gods locked up by the Titans. Hercules wins the day, the gods come back, and we have a happy ending.
Now, Here's a canon question I'd love someone to explain in Realms lore: how did infravision change to dark vision? I can understand it being a selective adaptation through natural selection, but some very-long-lived characters could suddenly see in the dark, and former "light the torch to blind the drow" actions suddenly didn't work. I felt it was like making trolls immune to fire. Anyway, I'm interested in explanations for this, as the published novels just use the then-current rule set.
Cheers,
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 00:06:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I am a 100% proponent of systemless Realmslore.
People need to play what they like. I am completely down with playing Pathfinder in the Realms, playing 3.5 or 4e in the Realms, or playing Gurps in the Realms, playing Vampire the Masquerade in the Realms, or whatever you want to play in the Realms.
(And on that note, a Vampire the Masquerade game set in Night Mask-run Westgate would be AWESOME. Just saying. )
Wow. Yes, yes it would... I'll have to mention this to my DM, who has played VtM extensively...
And the system I'll be using the next time I run a Realms campaign has been cobbled together from Pathfinder, bits of 3.5 (almost all from Unearthed Arcana), and larger parts of Arcana Unearthed and Arcana Evolved, with a concept or two from 4e thrown in (I like the "attack vs defense" mechanic, except that I think 4e took it in the wrong direction; I would make all attacks opposed rolls instead of having the defender "take 10"... then we still have meaningful saving throws, and mechanics are still made more consistent in the process). Anyway, I'll let this scroll get back to Realmslore reconciliation now; if I think of something on-topic, I'll be back. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 00:33:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Now, Here's a canon question I'd love someone to explain in Realms lore: how did infravision change to dark vision? I can understand it being a selective adaptation through natural selection, but some very-long-lived characters could suddenly see in the dark, and former "light the torch to blind the drow" actions suddenly didn't work. I felt it was like making trolls immune to fire. Anyway, I'm interested in explanations for this, as the published novels just use the then-current rule set.
-It was simply retconned as such. Elves of Faerūn's second revision addresses the change from Infravision to Darkvision, in regards to the Drow alone. Infravision is explained, physiologically, as a thin mucous membrane on the eyeball that responds to light and heat (also explaining why in some sources, in some situations, Drow eyes 'glow' red, while in others, they don't). Darkvision is the result of the partial use of this membrane and their normal Elven eyesight used in conjunction- kind of like nightvision, only black and white. The use of this technique eventually overtook infravision as the preferred means of sight among Drow. A flimsy explanation, but it's something. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 03:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
The simply, yet aptly named 'High God' of Krynnspace.
High Gods, eh?
What do they do? Angel Dust? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2012 03:06:44 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 04:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
The simply, yet aptly named 'High God' of Krynnspace.
High Gods, eh?
What do they do? Angel Dust?
 If so, I'd be afraid to be one of their servitors...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e)
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