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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 20:03:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On the other hand, some authors are good at it (Paul), while others just make a complete mess of things (Lady Penitent). In other words, some authors are able to take lemons and make lemonade, while others just make some bitter swill. This does not mean those failed (IMHO) series were written by bad authors - I think its more of a matter of what you are given to work with, and how well you know The Realms, which helps you blend the two together.
Lady Penitent was swill only because Lisa Smedman was straightjacketed from the get-go by (IMO) some professor with a rabid, undying hatred of drow in general and Eilistraee in particular.
Smedman earns points, however, from the exceedingly vague way she resolved Eilistraee's 'death'...I think it would be simple enough to bring both Eilistraee and Qilue back (my Pathfinder players are involved in doing exactly this), once you get past the fact that 4th Edition now pretty much requires the use of mega-NPC's, in Everquest terms, as 'quest-givers' (that was the case, I noticed, until Neverwinter was released).
I would bring all the Chosen back. Even Khelben, whom I roundly dislike. They have no goddess, thus no power beyond what they developed themselves. Their demises were pointless, and simply need to be fixed. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 20:48:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Lady Penitent was swill only because Lisa Smedman was straightjacketed from the get-go by (IMO) some professor with a rabid, undying hatred of drow in general and Eilistraee in particular.
Smedman earns points, however, from the exceedingly vague way she resolved Eilistraee's 'death'...I think it would be simple enough to bring both Eilistraee and Qilue back...
I agree. Having read the series, I thought Smedman's writing was top-notch. And she -definitely- left the "required" bits (those required by WotC) quite vague. That's the mark of a great author, really: can you work within someone else's strictures and still come up with an excellent novel (or trilogy). At various points, I really felt the intricate dance Eilistraee was weaving. Even Lolth was a bit confused by the ending.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 21:31:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Lady Penitent was swill only because Lisa Smedman was straightjacketed from the get-go by (IMO) some professor with a rabid, undying hatred of drow in general and Eilistraee in particular.
Smedman earns points, however, from the exceedingly vague way she resolved Eilistraee's 'death'...I think it would be simple enough to bring both Eilistraee and Qilue back...
I agree. Having read the series, I thought Smedman's writing was top-notch. And she -definitely- left the "required" bits (those required by WotC) quite vague. That's the mark of a great author, really: can you work within someone else's strictures and still come up with an excellent novel (or trilogy). At various points, I really felt the intricate dance Eilistraee was weaving. Even Lolth was a bit confused by the ending.
That's well-put. I should not have made a blanket statement of 'swill'. Rather, the marching orders Smedman was given were designed to produce it, and she still managed to avoid actually producing the sludge that I am sure the aforementioned professor was hoping for. In that, she deserves many kudos, you are absolutely correct. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 22:28:16
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Let me see if I can provide some insight into the novel process. This is from my understanding, as a freelance novelist, not an insider:
The way it's functioned in the past (and it might be different now, with a new team) is that the Realms has a creative team, consisting of the editors, core FR designers, and a team leader. They determine some overall points/stories for the Realms, and they pick authors they want to write some of those events. They might put together a multi-author theme series (i.e. Waterdeep) and pick some authors they want for that. They also pick several authors they want to publish just "in general," and work with those authors to determine what stories they want to tell. Offers get made, contracts get signed, authors work on those things.
An in-house author is MUCH easier for WotC to work with than a freelancer. Why? Because instead of sending emails and waiting for a response, you can just walk down the aisle to that author's desk and chat about it. I don't know how the pay works, but I think it's a lot easier for WotC to clear that as well, because it can be tied into their normal salary. In-house authors also have more contact with the regular designers, which can be a good or bad thing, depending on how you look at it. This may be why in-house writers seem to handle particularly "sensitive" things: more regular oversight.
I agree that most of the novel work should come from freelancers. That doesn't mean Bruce shouldn't write more FR novels--he definitely should. I know and like Bruce, and I respect him as an author. I just rather support the belief that the novels should come from freelancers, freeing up in-house designers to do what they should be doing: designing GAME MATERIAL.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 00:22:34
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I have no problem with either Lisa or Mr.Cordell's talent. I happen to have enjoyed Darkvision very much.
I don't think Ms. Smedman knows the Realms nearly well enough to have attempted what she did , and BC has what I like to refer to as 'acquired tastes' (he has his own vision for the Realms, which may not be what the fanbase wants to see).
So in one case, we have an Author who is largely Realms-ignorant (which is fine for smaller stories), and in the other, someone in a position to impose his own tastes on to the setting, because there is no-one to tell him no. Neither is a good situation, and neither situation should exist.
An editor who can catch all the glitches and fix them was sorely needed in Lisa's work (and in dozens of others in the past few years - how the hell did so many glaring mistakes get by everyone?), and in Bruce's case his own ideas should receive the exact same scrutiny and reviewing process as everyone else (which will NEVER happen, so long as we have in-house authors).
Besides, isn't it a form of double-dipping? You are getting paid to be creative and come up with good ideas, and when you do, you write it all down and sell it (again) to the same guys who are already paying you to come up with creative material? Does anyone seriously believe that every idea that ever went into a novel (by anyone) was only thought of when they weren't doing their 'day job'? Its actually impossible to separate the two, since the on-going storylines drive the novels, and the novel in-turn drive the ongoing storylines.
So its okay to get paid for an idea, set it in canon, and then write a novel about the idea you were already paid for and sell that to Hasbro (again), and have the same exact small 'clique' of people doing all this planning AND handing out the job assignments, and they give themselves the series that are more likely to sell well, because of the sweeping changes to the setting contained therein?
And no one else here thinks that a conflict of interest? 
In other settings, the story (history) of the setting is laid-out, to bring cohesion to the setting as whole. We see this in everything from WoW to Eberron to Middle-Earth. Novels are then written about some of those events, because fans are interested in the major events of the setting. In FR, events are fabricated just to come out with more excuses for more novels - its a horrific paradigm. No other setting (that I know of) does this. Movie franchises do this, but FR should not be planned-out like some Michael Bay Transformer movie. You think of the 'cool events' first, and then string them together with some flimsy plot. Its just BAD.
IMO, of course.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2012 00:23:29 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 00:40:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't think Ms. Smedman knows the Realms nearly well enough to have attempted what she did , and BC has what I like to refer to as 'acquired tastes' (he has his own vision for the Realms, which may not be what the fanbase wants to see).
So in one case, we have an Author who is largely Realms-ignorant (which is fine for smaller stories), and in the other, someone in a position to impose his own tastes on to the setting, because there is no-one to tell him no. Neither is a good situation, and neither situation should exist...
Markus, I think the claim of "Realms ignorance" about Smedman is grossly unfair. She's written 9 Realms novels, and many of them were very well researched not to mention very enjoyable by lots of fans. She would not have been asked back otherwise. I seriously doubt that you'd attach "Realms ignorance" to some of the current "newbie" authors, would you?
As to Cordell, yes... I'd agree that he definitely has an agenda in and for the Realms. In and of itself, that's not necessarily a bad thing. But I have to say, as much as I've enjoyed Smedman I really can't stand Cordell's novels. I think he's a pretty terrific designer, I really do; but no thanks on his novels and his love of aberrations.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 05:55:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
<chop>
Problem: Halruaa
Reasons: As above--people like it, it's interesting, and yet, it got the dead.
Solutions: As I've seen suggested in another thread, we need a novel or a trilogy about the event of Halruaa's demise and about survivors of the nation going elsewhere. It's already in the 4e FR book--the skyship fleet, as it were--but we should carry it through to the reclamation of Halruaa or at least a new founding nation.
Me, I'd put Halruaa together with Lantan and create a high-magic city-state out of the survivors of both countries.
<chop>
Someone... and I can't find their original post now to properly quote them... suggested what I think is the best fix for Halruaa... it wasn't destroyed, it was swapped for part of Abeir just before the area (now formerly part of Abeir) got obliterated, and Halruaa is intact on Abeir... until a major Spellplague flare-up at the outset of 5E (assuming a continued timeline as Erik proposes in his scroll) reverses the swap, bringing Halruaa back to the Realms. Yes, it stinks of "prearranged" and "beyond coincidence"... but it's better than the alternatives, imho. Apart from Halruaa, what irritated me most about the Spellplague was the slaughter of major NPCs... which is a big reason why I'm in favour of the "alternate timeline" solution... but the biggest reason is still empowerment of the PCs; let the PCs be the big heroes and stop the Spellplague. Otherwise, the only word I can use is "hypocrisy"... WotC wants the PCs to be the heroes, but they don't want the PCs to stop the Spellplague, even though they published a massive three-book adventure whose goal was precisely that.
Anyway, another poster has already pointed out the big fix for the Realms... we need a paladin of Tyr to kill Cyric before he ascends to divinity.  And yes, I know what that would do to the body of lore already accumulated, but that's what "search and replace" is for... replace all instances of "Cyric" in the text with "Bane" or "Bhaal" or "Kelemvor" (I'm assuming Myrkul remains in the Crown of Horns and Kelemvor ascends at the same time as Midnight, along with Bane and Bhaal being restored to their positions as gods of Strife and Death/Murder respectively) as appropriate; just because 2E didn't have assassins doesn't mean it can't have a god of murder. Anyway, it's still a massive retcon, and for that reason I'm not really in favour of it. I don't know what the solution is, but if it's not a splitting of the timelines to allow the prevention of the Spellplague by those who choose to attempt such, I don't have it.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 07:03:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't think Ms. Smedman knows the Realms nearly well enough to have attempted what she did , and BC has what I like to refer to as 'acquired tastes' (he has his own vision for the Realms, which may not be what the fanbase wants to see).
So in one case, we have an Author who is largely Realms-ignorant (which is fine for smaller stories), and in the other, someone in a position to impose his own tastes on to the setting, because there is no-one to tell him no. Neither is a good situation, and neither situation should exist...
Markus, I think the claim of "Realms ignorance" about Smedman is grossly unfair. She's written 9 Realms novels, and many of them were very well researched not to mention very enjoyable by lots of fans. She would not have been asked back otherwise. I seriously doubt that you'd attach "Realms ignorance" to some of the current "newbie" authors, would you?
As to Cordell, yes... I'd agree that he definitely has an agenda in and for the Realms. In and of itself, that's not necessarily a bad thing. But I have to say, as much as I've enjoyed Smedman I really can't stand Cordell's novels. I think he's a pretty terrific designer, I really do; but no thanks on his novels and his love of aberrations.
I found this at eilistraee.org, where someone asked Lisa Smedman about her assignment for Lady Penitent:
“I would have love to have kept both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun alive and kicking, since they make such interesting antagonists for Lolth, but my assignment from Wizards of the Coast was to make the necessary “tweaks” to the drow pantheon. WOTC stipulated that they had to die, but I had the fun of coming up with the gruesome details. Whether Eilistraee or Vhaeraun are ever resurrected (either in game material or a novel) is strictly up to WOTC — although individual DMs can do as they will, within their own campaigns. Hopefully, I’ve written in a couple of “loopholes” in my trilogy that they can use!” -Lisa Smedman.
This speaks to me, regardless of author choice process, of some very serious issues with some of the in-house staff at WotC at the time, namely some professor(s) who insisted on the drowpocalypse, for some bizarre reason that I doubt any sane person would be able to fathom. Lisa Smedman had no choice but to do as instructed, obviously (a person's gotta eat), but hopefully, the one responsible for ordering this is gone, and will not prove an obstruction to this foolishness being fixed. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 07:31:42
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quote:
Old Man Harpell
This speaks to me ... of some very serious issues with some of the in-house staff at WotC at the time ...
WotC's approach with 5E, thus far, indicates that times have changed. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 08:02:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Old Man Harpell
This speaks to me ... of some very serious issues with some of the in-house staff at WotC at the time ...
WotC's approach with 5E, thus far, indicates that times have changed.
You're very optimistic. 
Demon Weave: A Forgotten Realms Novel
Alex Irvine
Sept 2012
Product Description
"A "prophet" moves among the drow. A fallen priest, a scoundrel, a seductress, and if history is any guide, an avatar of Lolth herself. There are whispers to the leaders of the great drow Houses, communicating Lolth's desire: The Spider Queen will spin a new Weave and take Mystra's vacant seat as god of magic.
"To engender Lolth's apotheosis into the goddess of arcane magic, the drow must gather ancient power: primordial relics, remains of great wizards, artifacts once sacred to Mystra (the dead goddess of magic), and gain control of magical locations on the world's surface.
"Drow society is strained to the breaking point by this revelation. The female-dominated priesthood doesn't care to hear her message, a message that would dilute their own importance and raise male wizards as equals, or worse. They invent reasons to doubt the provenance of the message. Many reject her and her message, and try to banish proponents as frauds and heretics.
"But wizards among the drow, and the priestesses of wizard-friendly Houses (including House Barrison Del'Armgo the Second House of Menzoberranzan, and House Xolorrin the Third House of Menzoberranzan, among others) set about carrying out Lolth's plan. They desire to lay the foundation for a new Weave . . . and bring about the everlasting darkness that will cover the world above." |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 08:28:40
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Not optimistic, just pragmatic and more willing to explore dialogue than the alternative.
An optimist sees a glass that's half full. A pessimist sees a glass that's half empty.
An engineer sees a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 13:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Not optimistic, just pragmatic and more willing to explore dialogue than the alternative.
An optimist sees a glass that's half full. A pessimist sees a glass that's half empty.
An engineer sees a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
A realist quickly realizes the glass is filled with waste matter. 
I am willing to wait and see what Wizbro gives us, but in truth, my expectations really aren't all that high. While I concede that they are unlikely to revisit their 3rd-to-4th Edition methods and just randomly blow things up for crits and giggles, I am expecting them to produce something designed to try and please everyone, which in the end pleases no one.
Lolth as goddess of magic? Hoo boy...they will need to bring Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back if that happens. The 'all-powerful drow goddess' bit is already a rather stale idea. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 14:13:11
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How would Lloth manage to do that? She'd have both Mystra and Shar as opponents. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 14:58:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
How would Lloth manage to do that? She'd have both Mystra and Shar as opponents.
Lolth don't care, she's like the honey badger of the Realms. More enemies make her stronger, and she will smack the crap out of anyone who tries to stop her.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 17:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Markus, I think the claim of "Realms ignorance" about Smedman is grossly unfair. She's written 9 Realms novels, and many of them were very well researched not to mention very enjoyable by lots of fans. She would not have been asked back otherwise. I seriously doubt that you'd attach "Realms ignorance" to some of the current "newbie" authors, would you?
I have enjoyed her short Realms stories, but to handle a novel series the importance of LP you would have to be a Realms EXPERT - you would need to consult EVERY single Drow source ever written, all the way back to the beginning. Elaine did this for the Elves (you can tell by her sweeping history), and only made one minor mistake, which is easily reconciled (the use of the term 'gray').
I can tell you right now she either did not research EVERYTHING about Faezress, or simply ignored past lore. I sincerely doubt she looked in more esoteric sources like the 2e Monstrous Manual, which details the relationship of Drow Weapons and Faezress (Faezress, in 2e, worked in much the same way that Mythalars worked for the Netherese - Drow items are psudo-magical). This is just one of the many things I think she messed up on. This has no bearing on her writing talent - she was handed a pile of doo-doo (IMO), and was told what the end result needed to be, and she did the best she could, under the time constraints she had (they ALL have deadlines).
So here's the deal - anyone (with writing talent) can write a great Realms novel, IF they either already know the Realms like an expert (including understanding its flavor), or have enough time to become an expert on the specific subject they are writing about (which still isn't perfect, because so much FR lore is interconnected, which is why they felt there was a need to obliterate much of that lore).
Have you any idea the weird places FR lore is hidden? A LOT of it isn't even in FR sources (and I'm not just talking about Realmspace). The 2eBook of Artifacts, the 2e Complete Handbook of Necromancer's, the SJ supplement Greyspace (there is a reference to trade with an FR city!), multiple Planescape sources, etc, etc... thats an expertise you can't get by just doing research for a single project - thats only acquired from being a Realms fan for years, and also knowing enough about all the other D&D settings, because its all interconnected (much of which came form 2e, but it started way back).
Hell, I can forgive Lisa Smedman. What kills me is when in-house guys make stupid continuity mistakes; those are the people getting PAID to be experts on the Realms.
And as for the other 'newbie' authors (I wouldn't call Lisa a 'newb'), I happen to like Mark Sehestedt's work very much, and I can tell he did his research. I will admit he put his own spin on a few things (I wouldn't have gone in that direction), but he violated no canon AFAIK. Granted, he was given a region (The Hordelands) that had far less source to research then most areas, but it is also and extremely tricky area to do history on (much conflicting/ambiguous canon going on there, because of Imaskar and K-T), and considering his 'newb' status, he did a bang-up job. Then again, I am partial to that region, and it may have tainted my objectivity just a tad.
As for the others, its a mixed bag. I read three of the waterdeep novels, and the only one I didn't care for was written by an author/designer I really like and respect (it had nothing to do with talent - it was all about content). However, it was written in the new, 'grimier' Waterdeep of 4e, so its easier to write in that era without breaking canon (unless you screw-up a historic reference, so its easier to simply avoid them).
4e novels are easier to write, because they take place in a tabla rasa - its a clean-slate (practically) to write on. So long as you avoid the past, you can almost write whatever you want.
I do not fault LS - I just think she was in over her head, both with the sheer amount of past lore involved, and the task she was assigned.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2012 17:59:58 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 17:47:52
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Well, on the topic of magic:
Why the Weave and the Shadow Weave? I mean, that's as ridiculous as Canada having two official languages, and you can say what you want I'll tell you that my experience is that it just doesn't work.
If you're gonna have more than one Weave construct thing, then you might as well allow for any number of them.
As for the Shadow Weave itself ... why Shar? Shar is a goddess of absolute darkness, Mask is the god of shadows, should be Mask's Shadow Weave, no? To be truthful, it should be Mystra's Shadow Weave, she is the (only) goddess of magic. It's convenient that Shar also happens to be a goddess of pure evil, makes Mystra look good, can't have a hero without defining a villain and all that - except that's not Mystra's role. Unless the idea is to polarize magic itself into "white" and "black" good-vs-evil forever. I personally don't like the idea of turning wizards into another priest class, regardless of popular demand. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 18:00:43
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I broke my last post in half...
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
You're very optimistic.
Sometimes, there is no place to go but up.
And I don't want this to degrade - I was just making a point of one of the things I happen to think is major on-going problem with the Realms (NOT a 4e problem - I think this began at the outset of 2e and snowballed). I am not trying convince anyone else here - this thread is not for that - and if no-one else agrees with me I'd be surprised, but I would still go along with the consensus when it comes to 5e.
We are supposed to be discussing our perceived problems with the Realms, to help them fix them. This thread is more along the lines of Marvel's 'No-Prize' - tell them (WotC) what you think is a problem, and then suggest a fix. If you don't suggest a fix, then you are just complaining, not helping. Here another random example -
___________________________________________________________________________________
Problem: Harpers (& Chosen)
Reasons: There (percieved) monolithic nature makes the 'heores' (PCs) feel 'inferior, as if the spot-light isn't on them. This seems to be one of those 'false' problems engendered by a long novel series about the group, and their constant appearances in other novels.
Solutions: In both source and novel, do NOT show the Harpers 'solving every little problem' - avoid series dedicated to them all together. If used in other stories/sources, stress the fact that the Harpers (& Chosen) work in the background, and find others to accomplish their goals. Ergo, the Harper didn't 'save the town' - the Harper (disguised as a trapper they meet 'by accident') merely told them about the problem, and perhaps suggested a course of action ("Them folks would be a might grateful to anyone who'd find out whats been'a stealing their livestock"). Don't make them 'the heroes', make them manipulators, or patrons (in disguise), but don't place them in the lime-light.
Like my fist example I gave at the beginning of the thread, this isn't really one of my major quips - I'd just figure I'd mention this one, since it does seem to be an issue a lot of folks disagree on (on how the Harpers appear, and what they are really supposed to be).
Address the problems - real or not - and fix them. Obliterating everything did not fix anything - it just created a new slew of problems. If I wanted 'bare bones', I'd break-out my circa 1983 World of Greyhawk - that setting was ideal for the beginner DM to develop with his own HB material. FR was not designed that way (and the few areas left 'vacant' for DMs were quickly filled-in anyway - it attracted writers like moths to a flame). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 18:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Well, on the topic of magic:
Why the Weave and the Shadow Weave? I mean, that's as ridiculous as Canada having two official languages, and you can say what you want I'll tell you that my experience is that it just doesn't work.
Walk to any corner in NYC (Manhattan), and listen to the conversatioons around you. TRY to find an English-speaker.
Two languages? I laugh at your simplicity!
Anyhow, now that I got my nerd-rage under control, and am no longer made uncomfortable by the backwards-engineered, force-fit 'Shadoweave' (c'mon - you know my way looks kewler), I think its actually a nice addition to the Realms.
I only ask that they fix the plethora of disparate lore surrounding it. Each and every designer/writer had their own idea what it was/is, and none of them could agree - it kept waffling back-and-forth throughout 3e.
Is it part of the weave, separate from the weave, or the 'Shadow' of the Weave itself (like the way it was described as existing in the peace between the weave). I asked this point-blank of Rich Baker in the 'Ask the Designers" thread at WotC, and he said it was separate. I then quoted from a recent (at that time) source that said the Shadow Weave could not exist without the Weave (that they were intrinsically connected)... the source had his name on it.
When I ask him to explain, he said that part was written by someone else.
HELLO!!! WTH?
First off, two designers in one source completely disagreeing on the nature of the main plot-point within the source?
Second, he admitted not reading the parts he didn't write.
Ummmmm... I like Rich and all, I really do, but.... c'mon... really? REALLY?
And I don't even blame him - that seems to have been the attitude of most - if not all - in-house designers throughout most of 3e, and was responsible for the disjointed presentation of 4e. I got the impression that things would get discussed at weekly meetings, everyone would bring up their own concepts, and then everyone would walk away from those meeting developing their own concepts. Thats not a team - thats anarchy. Where the hell was the editing? How do two incompatible ideas wind-up in one sourcebook?
3e-4e was literally a 'chicken without a head'. It ran everywhere, and got nowhere. Cities that got destroyed in one novel 'reappeared' in the next - where is the accountability? Or the continuity?
So I guess my point is, 'new lore' in and of itself is not a bad thing, but sloppy presentation is. The Shadoweave is fine - just decide on what the hell it is, OFFICIALLY, and stick with that. If they didn't know what it was, how the heck were we supposed to?
I guess the bottom line is, stand firm on any decisions you make, don't waffle back-and-forth on just about everything (logo/no logo, book size (Essentials), detailed/undetailed, no 'Wailing Years novels"/ then contradict yourself within the same podcast, etc, etc). It was all so... unprofessional.
So decide what the Shadoweave is, and present it in all the material, alongside the Weave, and explain their relationship, from the beginning (of the first setting book, depending on when you reboot 5e from). I firmly believe newer lore must be backward-sown into the older products, so that newer fans won't have the same conundrums we ran into. If you need to do a ST-style reboot, then so be it, but make it consistent. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2012 18:27:48 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 18:32:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Markus, I think the claim of "Realms ignorance" about Smedman is grossly unfair. She's written 9 Realms novels, and many of them were very well researched not to mention very enjoyable by lots of fans. She would not have been asked back otherwise. I seriously doubt that you'd attach "Realms ignorance" to some of the current "newbie" authors, would you?
I have enjoyed her short Realms stories, but to handle a novel series the importance of LP you would have to be a Realms EXPERT - you would need to consult EVERY single Drow source ever written, all the way back to the beginning. Elaine did this for the Elves (you can tell by her sweeping history), and only made one minor mistake, which is easily reconciled (the use of the term 'gray').
I can tell you right now she either did not research EVERYTHING about Faezress, or simply ignored past lore. I sincerely doubt she looked in more esoteric sources like the 2e Monstrous Manual, which details the relationship of Drow Weapons and Faezress (Faezress, in 2e, worked in much the same way that Mythalars worked for the Netherese - Drow items are psudo-magical)...
It doesn't say that at all, at least not in my copy of the Monstrous Manual. It says this:
"The drow produce unusual weapons and clothing with quasi-magical properties. Some scribes and researchers suggest that it is the strange radiation around drow cities that make drow crafts special. Others theorize that fine workmanship gives their wonderfully strong metals and superior cloth its unique attributes. Whatever the reason, it’s clear that the drow have discovered some way to make their clothing and weapons without the use of magic."
And Liriel didn't capture the "magic of Faerzress" with the Windwalker Amulet, she captured "Place Magic".
Maybe Smedman's research was better than your memory?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 19:36:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Markus, I think the claim of "Realms ignorance" about Smedman is grossly unfair. She's written 9 Realms novels, and many of them were very well researched not to mention very enjoyable by lots of fans. She would not have been asked back otherwise. I seriously doubt that you'd attach "Realms ignorance" to some of the current "newbie" authors, would you?
I have enjoyed her short Realms stories, but to handle a novel series the importance of LP you would have to be a Realms EXPERT - you would need to consult EVERY single Drow source ever written, all the way back to the beginning. Elaine did this for the Elves (you can tell by her sweeping history), and only made one minor mistake, which is easily reconciled (the use of the term 'gray').
I can tell you right now she either did not research EVERYTHING about Faezress, or simply ignored past lore. I sincerely doubt she looked in more esoteric sources like the 2e Monstrous Manual, which details the relationship of Drow Weapons and Faezress (Faezress, in 2e, worked in much the same way that Mythalars worked for the Netherese - Drow items are psudo-magical)...
It doesn't say that at all, at least not in my copy of the Monstrous Manual. It says this:
"The drow produce unusual weapons and clothing with quasi-magical properties. Some scribes and researchers suggest that it is the strange radiation around drow cities that make drow crafts special. Others theorize that fine workmanship gives their wonderfully strong metals and superior cloth its unique attributes. Whatever the reason, it’s clear that the drow have discovered some way to make their clothing and weapons without the use of magic."
And Liriel didn't capture the "magic of Faerzress" with the Windwalker Amulet, she captured "Place Magic".
Maybe Smedman's research was better than your memory?
I like the purple Therise |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 19:47:50
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The purple is nice. Incidentally, I very much doubt drow quasimagical items are related to ancient Netherese quasimagical items, since to my knowledge the drow have never fashioned any mythallars.
[Edit]
Judging by ye olde description, the drow simply have access to ceramic Kevlar composites, Vectran mesh, UHMW polymer/aramid weaves, and ABS engineering thermoplastics. Not magic at all! |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Jan 2012 19:50:42 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 21:35:15
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Thanks, I liked the purple too. I suspect that the drow draw upon Node magic. We know that Faerzress has one type of quasi-magic radiation, and it has several specific magical effects (limiting teleportation and scrying). But there are also deep earth nodes and the like that give off magical radiation of a different sort, and the magic-capable drow certainly would have found and learned to tap into those power sources as well.
There's a whole section in one of the Windwalker books where Liriel gets close to a glowy rock formation. It recharges her piwafwi and other drow equipment that had lost their power as she had been in sunlight. She muses on how fast it recharges her stuff, that it would ordinarily take longer but this is a more powerful region. She also uses a chip of that same stone (and it is stone, not a piece of faerzress) in conjunction with the Windwalker Amulet artifact. To me, that says "Earth Node" type magic.
It's definitely not mythal- or mythallar-like, whatever they're doing to craft items. I think it's similar to Table Magic, in the sense that it's most likely a unique magic that they guard jealously and keep secret among the masters of the craft.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 00:00:53
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Ack!
I didn't mean they were the same (why is everyone so literal around here? What a bunch of grognards!)
What I meant is that they were quai-magical, in that they derived their power from an external source, just like Netherese Quasi-magical items.
'Quasi-magical' simply means that the device is created much more easily because they rely on an outside power source (and I would assume its an AoE in all cases, but maybe not). Drow don't need mythalars - they had the Faezress - I thought that much was obvious. Its established canon that Drow items rely on Faezress for their power, and that entry just relates the exact nature of that relationship. By using the term 'quasi-magical' (seen only in the Netherese source, AFAIK), it established a non-self-powered magical item (which is easier to create).
The Drow relationship between Faezress and their magic is clearly established since the very beginning. Nowhere did it ever say Faezress was 'Drow-Nip'; you'll note Liriel was sitting on top of a pile of the stuff, with no effect. Drow have never been 'attracted' by it - it was always considered dangerous, but useful (the same way they view other Drow).
I don't understand how the Liriel story invalidates anything... unless you think the 'place magic' wasn't Feazress, which is just plain silly, in light of all past lore. Faezress IS the place magic of the Underdark.
The simplest solution is often the correct one. Saying that the Drow's unique power (source) was actually two separate sources is just adding unnecessary redundancy to the lore. Faezress is what it always was - not some sort of weird 'Drowish Fly'. It powered their items, plain and simple.
Its a non-issue anyway. I don't know too many people that like the series, or use the lore; most choose to just ignore it. Why are we even debating it?
For 5e I want less excuses, and more results. If we choose to just keep sweeping these things under the rug, we wind up with an even bigger mess the next time out. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2012 00:04:14 |
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Super Wizard
Acolyte
31 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 00:12:05
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OH YEAH, THERISE!
I remember that from the Liriel books...
boy, I sure would like to read some more about Liriel. Dang she as really an awesome character! I wouls be ripping SWEEEEET if Elaine Cunninham would do more Liriel!! |
Unstoppably Awesome to the Max |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 00:27:37
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This topic is going nowhere at this point, and redundant with Erik's thread. If we can't agree on what needs to be fixed, then we might as well just keep living with 4e and not even get a 5e. Obviously, they won't be able to please everybody no matter what they do. I tried to erase my OP, but the site won't let me.
Please lock the thread - just let everyone post in Erik's from now on. I probably shouldn't have come back. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 01:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...Why are we even debating it?
Eh, I don't know really. Just pointing out that faerzress isn't the only "radiation" magic in the underdark, I guess.
It's not like they've ever shown us the procedure for making drow items (the ones that (used to) degrade).
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 21 Jan 2012 01:48:14 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 02:15:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, now that I got my nerd-rage under control, and am no longer made uncomfortable by the backwards-engineered, force-fit 'Shadoweave' (c'mon - you know my way looks kewler), I think its actually a nice addition to the Realms.
I only ask that they fix the plethora of disparate lore surrounding it. Each and every designer/writer had their own idea what it was/is, and none of them could agree - it kept waffling back-and-forth throughout 3e.
Is it part of the weave, separate from the weave, or the 'Shadow' of the Weave itself (like the way it was described as existing in the peace between the weave). I asked this point-blank of Rich Baker in the 'Ask the Designers" thread at WotC, and he said it was separate. I then quoted from a recent (at that time) source that said the Shadow Weave could not exist without the Weave (that they were intrinsically connected)... the source had his name on it.
When I ask him to explain, he said that part was written by someone else.
HELLO!!! WTH?
First off, two designers in one source completely disagreeing on the nature of the main plot-point within the source?
Second, he admitted not reading the parts he didn't write.
Ummmmm... I like Rich and all, I really do, but.... c'mon... really? REALLY?
What if, as he said "it's different" meaning that it acts, appears, and is channelled differently than normal "weave" magic? Then, as more supplements came out and Shadowmagic got more fleshed out, it became that the Shadowweave worked off of the normal weave? Does it still act differently? Yes. Does it have different effects and appear differently in application? Yes. Is it's Source the "Weave"? Well.....kinda. Yes, because it's the shadow-side of the "Weave" but functions differently. I feel that if the real Weave would fail, so too would the Shadow-weave but that doesn't mean they're one in the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And I don't even blame him - that seems to have been the attitude of most - if not all - in-house designers throughout most of 3e, and was responsible for the disjointed presentation of 4e. I got the impression that things would get discussed at weekly meetings, everyone would bring up their own concepts, and then everyone would walk away from those meeting developing their own concepts. Thats not a team - thats anarchy. Where the hell was the editing? How do two incompatible ideas wind-up in one sourcebook?
3e-4e was literally a 'chicken without a head'. It ran everywhere, and got nowhere. Cities that got destroyed in one novel 'reappeared' in the next - where is the accountability? Or the continuity?
I think a lot of designers wanted to make the post Spellplague Realms accessable to anyone new trying it. Keeping things the same as it was in 3E would've made this more difficult. It's easy for us, coming from a lore-enriched background and lots of older supplements to back up our campaigns, but for someone brand new, it's intimidating. The only reason we run it at our table is because I know a good bit of lore that's applicable and my friend ran Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights games. Big suprise that we stick with the Sword Coast, Neverwinter, Western Heartlands, and Cormyr heh.
But, I think the designers also knew that any continunity problems wouldn't be found by newer generations, really how could they unless they went digging? And a good portion of the changes was so that they wouldn't have to go digging. But for me, I'm not shackled to Canon. I use it how I like, when I see fits, and anytime in between. It's great source for info and starting up imagination, but not really THAT important that I don't fudge things....well a lot in my campaigns.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I guess my point is, 'new lore' in and of itself is not a bad thing, but sloppy presentation is. The Shadoweave is fine - just decide on what the hell it is, OFFICIALLY, and stick with that. If they didn't know what it was, how the heck were we supposed to?
I guess the bottom line is, stand firm on any decisions you make, don't waffle back-and-forth on just about everything (logo/no logo, book size (Essentials), detailed/undetailed, no 'Wailing Years novels"/ then contradict yourself within the same podcast, etc, etc). It was all so... unprofessional.
So decide what the Shadoweave is, and present it in all the material, alongside the Weave, and explain their relationship, from the beginning (of the first setting book, depending on when you reboot 5e from). I firmly believe newer lore must be backward-sown into the older products, so that newer fans won't have the same conundrums we ran into. If you need to do a ST-style reboot, then so be it, but make it consistent.
Of course we want things to be consistant and build upon continunity. And I agree that it's important to keep that tradition going strong with future supplements with the next iteration of D&D, but if/when they mess up *meh* I'll just fix it how I see it and move on. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 13:36:07
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I'm a fan of 4e for the most part- the game mechanics and the new Points of Light setting. However, I hate what they did to Forgotten Realms lore. And that's about it.
I also hate how most of the Fey creatures are always this sickening good type. I've always viewed the fey as neutral types. I have them completely neutral in my Realms.
In my Realms, the Tel'Quessir have goblin slaves, hate most humans, and want to retake back a lot of their old empires. I'll explain this in another thread |
Edited by - Aryalómë on 21 Jan 2012 13:39:58 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 19:19:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
I'm a fan of 4e for the most part- the game mechanics and the new Points of Light setting. However, I hate what they did to Forgotten Realms lore. And that's about it.
I also hate how most of the Fey creatures are always this sickening good type. I've always viewed the fey as neutral types. I have them completely neutral in my Realms.
In my Realms, the Tel'Quessir have goblin slaves, hate most humans, and want to retake back a lot of their old empires. I'll explain this in another thread
I'm neutral on 4th Edition mechanics - I just don't use them is all, nothing to do with any prejudices. Points of Light is tailor-made for Eberron, and worked really well there. Never played in that particular game world, , but I have seen no blistering criticisms of PoL from Eberron fans. Wizbro's only mistake was exporting it out of Eberron.
It was interesting reading your take on the Tel'Quessir. Have you ever taken a look at Birthright? It is the only TSR world apart from the Realms that I use, and apart from goblin slaves (which they have never really said exists there), the Sidhelien of Cerilia sound almost exactly like your interpretation of elven society in Faerun. It was one of the things I liked about it...for every 'nice happy elf', there's a dozen others who dislike you, hate your species, or are just downright homicidal around most other races (one of the epic Bad Guys is even nicknamed 'The Elf'). |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 20:36:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This topic is going nowhere at this point, and redundant with Erik's thread. If we can't agree on what needs to be fixed, then we might as well just keep living with 4e and not even get a 5e. Obviously, they won't be able to please everybody no matter what they do. I tried to erase my OP, but the site won't let me.
Please lock the thread - just let everyone post in Erik's from now on. I probably shouldn't have come back.
I beg to differ, Mark... Erik's scroll has a very specific solution in mind, and having this scroll gives us a place to suggest ideas that may not fit with that specific solution. And yes, you did the right thing coming back; I've been away for a while too, but I've been here long enough to know that the Realms needs voices like yours; Ed and THO themselves agree that you "get" the Realms in a way that far too few of us do, and your opinions are valuable to the community. Whether they know it or not, I'd say said opinions are also valuable to WotC, so hopefully someone from there is reading this, or someone with connections can pass your thoughts along. Anyway, that's my two coppers on your presence here. I know it's a tough project; if it was easy, it wouldn't be worth doing. So stick around.
To the other scribes here: I know how divisive the edition wars were, and I'm not proud of my own not-insignificant role in them here. We need to use D&D Next as an opportunity, as Mark says, to heal the rift and produce a Realms we can all enjoy spending time in. Anyway, hopefully I've moistened some eyes somewhere, so we can get on with the business at hand.
Mods, again, please keep this scroll open unless it becomes obvious that disagreement is going to continue to overwhelm discussion. Thanks. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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What would you change? (5e)
