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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 21:01:57
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| To further contribute some (hopefully) productive discussion, I have to agree with Old Man Harpell's comment that Points of Light doesn't fit with the Realms. That doesn't mean that, without it, there isn't still loads of evil for the PCs to deal with, nor does it mean that the Chosen can deal with it all. The Chosen will only subordinate the PCs if the DM allows them to; killing them off only reduces the options for the DM in terms of NPCs for the PCs to seek advice from... they're way too busy dealing with their own cosmic concerns to physically assist the PCs, and that's the way it should be. If you want to use them another way, for instance as target practice for a munchkin campaign, that's your choice as a DM, but don't then come back and say "they ruined my game!" If you as a DM use the Chosen as DMPCs, they will ALWAYS ruin the game, and as I've said elsewhere, if you don't like the Chosen, then don't use them. There's no rule saying that you have to use everything that's published... but, as Mark has already said, everything that *is* published should be consistent, and that was certainly not the case in 4E and late 3E. Heck, even 1E and 2E had their inconsistencies, but people like Krash (Impiltur, many others) and the Keepers of the Cormyr Lineage (the age of King Duar) came up with good explanations for the inconsistencies. It's things like this that are needed... although there is one big sticking-point that I've commented on in other scrolls; see my next post for that. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 21:04:28
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for 5e's core
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I'd put in this line in each phb:
RACES:
Not all player races are going to be represented in each setting.
and in each setting
Races:
The following races are NOT native to this world, but here are some options to play as such race.
this way we would not see the it's the phb you have to let me play it
and we would not see
oh not any more world Xyz stuff shoe horned into setting Abc
which means to those who cant live without the warforged in the phb can have it, it still won't be canon in the realms.
just like no drow in dragonlance.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 21:21:55
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| The sticking-point: If we're going to keep the Chosen for those who want them, *some* canon (primarily involving the Spellplague) needs to be either retconned or given an alternative to. Personally, I was only happy with the way Khelben's death was handled; the deaths of Alustriel, Laeral, and others were simply stated or hinted at, with no real explanations. First of all, let me restate for the record that I HATE retcons. Second, there are ways of restoring what was lost without resorting to retcon, although it admittedly strains one's suspension of disbelief. Third, there are aspects of the Spellplague that make perfect sense... and then there's Halruaa. That's been discussed elsewhere, and I won't go into it here. Fourth, we'll probably have to wait for Ed's next Elminster novel to see what happens with Mystra before we can suggest any real solutions, unless we're going to take the approach of divorcing the novels from the game setting canon. If we do this, it should be retroactive, and the point has already been made that this would result in a large amount of game setting history being invalidated. If anybody else has anything *constructive* to suggest on this matter, let's hear it. If it's not constructive, don't post it. If you don't believe that the old Realms and the new Realms can coexist, that's fine, but I don't want to hear about it here, and neither does Mark. [/rant] |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 21:35:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<chop>
Problem: Harpers (& Chosen)
Reasons: There (percieved) monolithic nature makes the 'heores' (PCs) feel 'inferior, as if the spot-light isn't on them. This seems to be one of those 'false' problems engendered by a long novel series about the group, and their constant appearances in other novels.
Solutions: In both source and novel, do NOT show the Harpers 'solving every little problem' - avoid series dedicated to them all together. If used in other stories/sources, stress the fact that the Harpers (& Chosen) work in the background, and find others to accomplish their goals. Ergo, the Harper didn't 'save the town' - the Harper (disguised as a trapper they meet 'by accident') merely told them about the problem, and perhaps suggested a course of action ("Them folks would be a might grateful to anyone who'd find out whats been'a stealing their livestock"). Don't make them 'the heroes', make them manipulators, or patrons (in disguise), but don't place them in the lime-light.
Like my fi[r]st example I gave at the beginning of the thread, this isn't really one of my major quips - I'd just figure I'd mention this one, since it does seem to be an issue a lot of folks disagree on (on how the Harpers appear, and what they are really supposed to be).
<snip>
I agree entirely, Mark... I don't know why I missed this post earlier.  This is exactly what I would like to see done. I've always thought that the best FR novels were the ones that focused on "minor" characters. That being said, I still want Ed to be able to give us at least a novel each for Alustriel, Laeral, and Syluné. 
In the last 2nd edition campaign I ran, I used the Harpers extensively... largely because the PCs were seeking membership. The campaign storyline was driven half by the PCs proving themselves worthy of the silver pin, and half by things that came up involving the backstories of individual PCs. It was absolutely the best campaign I have ever run, and I've found it difficult to get back to that kind of epic flavour with RSE after RSE.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 21:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
for 5e's core
:
I'd put in this line in each phb:
RACES:
Not all player races are going to be represented in each setting.
and in each setting
Races:
The following races are NOT native to this world, but here are some options to play as such race.
<snip>
I like this idea... very much. I've seen some very good backstories for warforged in the Realms, and with places like Imaskar and Netheril in the history of the Realms, they're probably the easiest non-Realms race to justify the inclusion of. Let the players know what's "standard" for each world, then give the DM options if the players want to play races other than the "standard" ones. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 21:48:54
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a few others on the wotc forum liked the idea too...
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 22:29:16
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| But.....why is this required as a rule? I mean, wouldn't it be the DM's job just to say this without requiring the space/word count? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 22:46:21
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Someone (I believe a regular on this site - can't remember) did a series of articles on the Wizbro site that used this method of presentation of core material in regards to the Realms (that was a very ugly sentence!)
Was it Eytan?
Anyhow, like that. Don't say the Realms have Warforged; give us an article that describes 2-3 regions that have 'races' (Warforged aren't really a race at all) similar to Warforged, like Bloodforged, Gondforged and Deathforged (a concept I came up with regarding the creation of Helmed Horrors). Hell, even Thaaluds (Tomb-Tappers) could be considered a type of Warforged (but I wouldn't use them as PCs). Thats what I want - CHOICES. Don't shoe-horn us into anything. It would also be nice of these types of articles contained differences between the 'core' versions, and the various Realms versions (for instance, a Tomb-Tapper Warforged would have a 'swallow whole' feat). Little tweaks like that would go a long way in smoothing rumpled (grognard) feathers.
Anyhow, great idea, for everything, not just races. I believe they were already going this route anyway, with this proposed 'modular' approach (nothing new at all, really - they are just stressing something everyone was able to do with the settings before). Its even something they were hoping to achieve with 4e (the "one size fits all" approach).
And I don't want the thread closed. I was just having a bit of a self-directed temper tantrum (in other words, I can't help being me, no matter how hard I try).
The lore I was thinking was 'canon' was actually a bunch of stuff I wrote for the Elven Netbook Project (based on all available canon lore), regarding dark Elves, and their magic. I basically took what we had, and did what I thought was best with it, and someone else went a different route, which set-off all sorts of 'internal alarms' in me. Weird, I know.
If you had stuff published in only two Realms Netbooks, and both of them were almost immediately retro-actively invalidated by official sources/authors, you'd almost think someone 'had it out for you' as well. I guess I got grumpy when someone poked my sore spot. No worries - this thread is still contributing in a positive way.
And I STILL like my versions better.
New Idea: Rather then just keep creating new threads, we can stick all the random edition stuff in here (IDEAS, not complaining... unless the complaining is to reinforce the 'why' point of your argument). So here is my first 'random thought' regarding 5e -
Its pretty obvious they are going to reprinting all the products, because they have begun this process already, as long as they see their is a market for this (and I am sure there is). However, I had hoped they were going to do more then simply reprint stuff (the old material - especially the pre-2e stuff, was loaded with errors). Are they going to keep all the spelling and grammatical errors? It seems really.... cheesy... to be doing that (I was actually thinking 'cheap', like the recycled art in GHotR).
Regardless (I do tend to ramble ), would people want to see an OGB reprint, or would you rather see an OEG product instead? OEG = 'Old Ed Greenwood', as in, HIS Realms, as HE envisioned them. I know I'd pay dearly for THAT. They won't really be fixing anything if they simply reprint stuff, and we'll have lost a golden opportunity to fix all the ugly.
Of course, that would force them to find a consensus on what is 'bad', and if these threads the past two weeks have proved anything, its that they'll never get one. 
So whats better? Simple reprints (which is the 'safe' approach), or should they even try to correct some things? Or would people rather see the Realms as they were meant to be, before they got straddled with all the extra baggage? (and this might be our only chance to see some of that buried Ed-lore). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2012 22:57:50 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 22:51:37
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would you rather spend 3 pages on two races or spend 3 pages on fluff..... dont answer this
it is.... but mind you I thought of it as a compromise for those who wanted said race in said setting and those who would not want it to become a part of the setting no matter how easy the designers could add it.
and its not a rule ,its a compromised addition.... and a sub section under rule 0. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 23:06:03
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And because 'rabid fanbois' (most of us) tend to get mad when core craps all over our canon. A few pages in a well-thought out article can really help to smooth things over with the fanbase, and what price would you put on happy fans? (READ: Consumers)
I put stuff from other settings in my Realms all the time - its barely recognizable - but that was MY CHOICE. I wouldn't want those choices made for me (and yes, I realize that is a false perception, because what they canonically say, and what I use, can always be two separate things, and are).
But people still think like that, so why not appease them? In the long run its easier on the pocket then an edition war. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2012 23:07:18 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 23:06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
snip
Regardless (I do tend to ramble ), would people want to see an OGB reprint, or would you rather see an OEG product instead? OEG = 'Old Ed Greenwood', as in, HIS Realms, as HE envisioned them. I know I'd pay dearly for THAT. They won't really be fixing anything if they simply reprint stuff, and we'll have lost a golden opportunity to fix all the ugly.
Of course, that would force them to find a consensus on what is 'bad', and if these threads the past two weeks have proved anything, its that they'll never get one.
So whats better? Simple reprints (which is the 'safe' approach), or should they even try to correct some things? Or would people rather see the Realms as they were meant to be, before they got straddled with all the extra baggage? (and this might be our only chance to see some of that buried Ed-lore).
both I want both can I have both???
and return the avariel.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 00:15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Someone (I believe a regular on this site - can't remember) did a series of articles on the Wizbro site that used this method of presentation of core material in regards to the Realms (that was a very ugly sentence!)
Was it Eytan?
Anyhow, like that. Don't say the Realms have Warforged; give us an article that describes 2-3 regions that have 'races' (Warforged aren't really a race at all) similar to Warforged, like Bloodforged, Gondforged and Deathforged (a concept I came up with regarding the creation of Helmed Horrors). Hell, even Thaaluds (Tomb-Tappers) could be considered a type of Warforged (but I wouldn't use them as PCs). Thats what I want - CHOICES. Don't shoe-horn us into anything. It would also be nice of these types of articles contained differences between the 'core' versions, and the various Realms versions (for instance, a Tomb-Tapper Warforged would have a 'swallow whole' feat). Little tweaks like that would go a long way in smoothing rumpled (grognard) feathers.
Anyhow, great idea, for everything, not just races. I believe they were already going this route anyway, with this proposed 'modular' approach (nothing new at all, really - they are just stressing something everyone was able to do with the settings before). Its even something they were hoping to achieve with 4e (the "one size fits all" approach).
The problem is, it became more of a "one style fits all" approach, and that's patently absurd. I'm really looking forward to seeing what comes of the 'modular' concept... as are, I hope, many others. Between Castles & Crusades and several other "retro" clones we've seen in the past three years, not to mention the continued existence of Tunnels and Trolls, it seems to me that there's a good market out there for a modular system that includes the older rules (or lack thereof).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And I don't want the thread closed. I was just having a bit of a self-directed temper tantrum (in other words, I can't help being me, no matter how hard I try).
The lore I was thinking was 'canon' was actually a bunch of stuff I wrote for the Elven Netbook Project (based on all available canon lore), regarding dark Elves, and their magic. I basically took what we had, and did what I thought was best with it, and someone else went a different route, which set-off all sorts of 'internal alarms' in me. Weird, I know.
If you had stuff published in only two Realms Netbooks, and both of them were almost immediately retro-actively invalidated by official sources/authors, you'd almost think someone 'had it out for you' as well. I guess I got grumpy when someone poked my sore spot. No worries - this thread is still contributing in a positive way.
And I STILL like my versions better.
Thank you for the reassurance, and I can understand your feelings re: the Netbooks and canon... and I like your versions better too. Maybe WotC *should* hire you, and not just for cartography...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
New Idea: Rather then just keep creating new threads, we can stick all the random edition stuff in here (IDEAS, not complaining... unless the complaining is to reinforce the 'why' point of your argument). So here is my first 'random thought' regarding 5e -
Its pretty obvious they are going to reprinting all the products, because they have begun this process already, as long as they see their is a market for this (and I am sure there is). However, I had hoped they were going to do more then simply reprint stuff (the old material - especially the pre-2e stuff, was loaded with errors). Are they going to keep all the spelling and grammatical errors? It seems really.... cheesy... to be doing that (I was actually thinking 'cheap', like the recycled art in GHotR).
Regardless (I do tend to ramble ), would people want to see an OGB reprint, or would you rather see an OEG product instead? OEG = 'Old Ed Greenwood', as in, HIS Realms, as HE envisioned them. I know I'd pay dearly for THAT. They won't really be fixing anything if they simply reprint stuff, and we'll have lost a golden opportunity to fix all the ugly.
Of course, that would force them to find a consensus on what is 'bad', and if these threads the past two weeks have proved anything, its that they'll never get one.
So whats better? Simple reprints (which is the 'safe' approach), or should they even try to correct some things? Or would people rather see the Realms as they were meant to be, before they got straddled with all the extra baggage? (and this might be our only chance to see some of that buried Ed-lore).
Absolutely! I want Ed's original Realms! Complete with all the missing heraldry... oh, and, of course, the *complete* Cormyr Lineage... at least up to DR 1357, depending on what they decide to do about subsequent material.  If they give me that in a 5E Realms Campaign setting, I might even buy copies for all of my friends who don't play FR. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 22 Jan 2012 00:17:11 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 17:38:49
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I thought as much - its been awhile since I've been over at the WotC site. Thanks Sage.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
both I want both can I have both???
and return the avariel....
Of course.
And merge them with the redundant Raptorrans. The Raptorran lore is very good, and should not go to waste, but the very last thing FR needs is another humanoid 'flyer race'. We've got so many already.
For just a moment, lets put the 'Elves do not evolve' argument aide. That would mean that on different worlds, different off-shoots of the Elves could look (and behave) radically different. Now we know that the Avariel pre-dated the High-Elven exodus to Faerun (if a handful of people can even be called an exodus), which means they were 'probably' of the Green (Sylvan) Elven culture, and most-likely worshiped the Fey pantheon (as the Green did, as per the GHotR), and not the Seldarine.
Once again, we can use the lore to fix the lore - the Raptorran philosophy and culture is VERY Sylvan/Fey-like, We also know that many fey and Elves can change their physical nature at-will (size, looks, and even environment-of-choice - just look at sea Elves). Ergo, we do not have to choose; different groups - on different worlds or even different parts of the same world - could look more or less human. In some regions, perhaps the avariel choose a more 'birdlike' path, while others preferred to stick closer to their Elven heritage (and appear more like angels).
If an Elf can 'ascend' to the tier of Eladrin, and an Eladrin can grow wings, why the heck would anyone have any problem at all with different (regional) groups looking differently? Elves can grow gills, for goodness sakes! Just say the raptorrans are Avariel, and both types of physical specimens exist.
If we can do this for bearded dwarven women, why not? Not every human group looks like every other - compare the African Watusi and Pygmy tribes. their societies are similar, but they look very different (and they are of the same race, regardless - human).
Instead of redundancy, render-down the excess and instead give us dozens of detailed races, with differences, rather then hundreds upon hundreds of races with little more then monster manual entries. Using Raptorran lore for Avariels is just one of the many things we can achieve with this method of reduction. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jan 2012 17:45:04 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2012 : 09:49:04
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| I would like to keep many of the features of 4e such as returened Abeir but perhaps a few of the goodly gods could be resurrected in order to stabalise the realms. At least Mystra should be brought back ,we need a proper weave of magic. |
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What would you change? (5e)
