| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jan 2012 : 16:25:17
|
Problem:
The "core" setting is not based on the Realms, but instead some mixture of Greyhawk and other stuff.
Reasons:
It kinda doesn't make any sense if the Forgotten Realms are the flagship setting. DMs and players always have a DMG and PHB on hand, what's the point of having gods, spells, items, and other elements specific to foreign settings in them? Why not encourage a unified Realms-centric setting as the "core"? New players would probably puzzle over why no Realms locations are given for legendary figures like Mordenkainen, or why there's no temples dedicated to Boccob.
Fixes:
Easy to fix. Just establish the Realms as the "core" setting; remove all the specifically non-Realms content and replace with Realms equivalents. Beltyn's Burning Blood instead of Melf's Minute Meteors, Milil instead of Olidammara, Netherese Stormstars instead of Zagyg's Crazy Birdcage, the Hand and Eye of Vecna don't belong in the Realms while Lathander's Tears do.
I'm not sure if this is really a "problem" at all, to be honest. Just something that mildly miffs me. Who plays Greyhawk anymore, anyways?
The "core" stuff should establish the primary setting for D&D gaming. If not the most prominent setting (ie, the Realms) then a fair representation of all the mainstream settings.
[Edit]
No disrespect intended towards venerated Gygax; I wholeheartedly agree that all those inexplicably "weird" and cool elements have been part of the traditional D&D flavour since they first appeared in 1E. But some of them just don't belong in the Realms, and the work of Ed and Grubb needs some lovin' too. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Jan 2012 16:47:38 |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2012 : 18:21:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Problem:
The "core" setting is not based on the Realms, but instead some mixture of Greyhawk and other stuff.
Reasons:
It kinda doesn't make any sense if the Forgotten Realms are the flagship setting. DMs and players always have a DMG and PHB on hand, what's the point of having gods, spells, items, and other elements specific to foreign settings in them? Why not encourage a unified Realms-centric setting as the "core"? New players would probably puzzle over why no Realms locations are given for legendary figures like Mordenkainen, or why there's no temples dedicated to Boccob.
Fixes:
Easy to fix. Just establish the Realms as the "core" setting; remove all the specifically non-Realms content and replace with Realms equivalents. Beltyn's Burning Blood instead of Melf's Minute Meteors, Milil instead of Olidammara, Netherese Stormstars instead of Zagyg's Crazy Birdcage, the Hand and Eye of Vecna don't belong in the Realms while Lathander's Tears do.
I'm not sure if this is really a "problem" at all, to be honest. Just something that mildly miffs me. Who plays Greyhawk anymore, anyways?
The "core" stuff should establish the primary setting for D&D gaming. If not the most prominent setting (ie, the Realms) then a fair representation of all the mainstream settings.
[Edit]
No disrespect intended towards venerated Gygax; I wholeheartedly agree that all those inexplicably "weird" and cool elements have been part of the traditional D&D flavour since they first appeared in 1E. But some of them just don't belong in the Realms, and the work of Ed and Grubb needs some lovin' too.
It must be pointed out that because of planar travel, some spells crafted by mages of other worlds have become known in the Realms. Khelben's Warding Whip, for example, was crafted by the Blackstaff specifically to counter Bigby's Hand spells. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2012 : 18:25:10
|
I like Halruua being nuked. I don't think a nation of powerful mages fits the Milieu.
Calimshan should have Genasi...but not the huge percentage they say. Like 1-5% would still be a lot.
I hate dragonborn nations, too. They should exist in small numbers. |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2012 : 18:47:08
|
I think the thing about the gods has been overstated in the game as late. The gods are powerful, sure, but they shouldn't be ALL POWERFUL. I'd like to see the gods made more like the Greek Gods (who were potent but made mistakes and could be thwarted just like anyone else), and decrease the influence of our modern/RW conception of gods as all powerful, all knowing entities. Shar doesn't know ALL secrets (she just claims that she does), Oghma doesn't KNOW everything, etc.
I've cut some of this out of my own thread (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16093), but here we go:
Problem: The Spellplague and timejump
Reasons: I think we can all agree that something needs to happen with the Spellplague. It's the elephant in the room that is difficult for any of us to ignore. It swept in, neutered a bunch of lore (not removed but made it less relevant), and muddied the waters.
Solution: I would suggest that the 5e FR make an effort (whether through an event or just moving away from it in design) to downplay or otherwise neuter the Spellplague. It was never intended to have such sweeping effects on the 4e FR current setting (i.e. it happened 100 years before and only persists in rare flare-ups), but the perception that the 4e marketing fostered was that it was a big deal. Moving forward with 5e FR, we have an opportunity to correct that, and I suggest that the Spellplague be relegated to the dusty tomes of history as an event that occurred, had sweeping changes, but has largely been forgotten, like the Time of Troubles, the Return of Shade, Lolth's Silence, etc.
As for the lore-lite timejump: as I see it, the big stumbling block of 4e FR was that we advanced 100 years, NONE OF WHICH were filled in. We were given so little hint as to what happened in that time and told to make it up ourselves. No canonical interpretation of WHY things were muddled up, so it just gave rise to all sorts of online debates. This needs to be corrected, at least in some respect. I don't see a need to fill in all that time, but WotC needs to throw us a bone here.
Problem: Kingdom of Many-Arrows
Reasons: Big, cool installation in the Realms that has very little background or explanation.
Solutions: I think the orc kingdom is an awesome thing that is sorely in need of detail and development. I think a novel ala Cormyr or Evermeet would be exactly what the doctor ordered, detailing Many-Arrows from its founding shortly before the Spellplague to the present day (1480). I know Bob was working with it for a while--I don't know what future plans he has for it.
Problem: Halruaa
Reasons: As above--people like it, it's interesting, and yet, it got the dead.
Solutions: As I've seen suggested in another thread, we need a novel or a trilogy about the event of Halruaa's demise and about survivors of the nation going elsewhere. It's already in the 4e FR book--the skyship fleet, as it were--but we should carry it through to the reclamation of Halruaa or at least a new founding nation.
Me, I'd put Halruaa together with Lantan and create a high-magic city-state out of the survivors of both countries.
Problem: The Chosen of Mystra
Reasons: I don't know about you, but when I think of the Realms, I do indeed think of the Chosen of Mystra as being iconic characters that are key to the setting. 4e FR did some rough things to the Chosen (some of which we know about, some are only implied). The issue, though, is that in the hands of an unwary DM, they can seize your game.
Solutions: I'd like to see it established what happened to all of them (dammit!). If nothing else, this would allow you to use them (or their legends) in your game without feeling like you were wandering really far afield, or shoe-horning them in. I don't want their stats (that gives the wrong impression, that you should use these characters as actual antagonists in your game), but I want to see what's going on with them. DMs should get the choice about using them without feeling pressured to do so.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2012 : 18:54:46
|
<...looks for the 'like' button in vain...>
[Like] on Eric Scott de Bie's post
Actually filling in the gaps is what several designers had been doing prior 4e as well, picking up loose ends left and right and weaving it into something more coherent. The post-Spellplague gap might be a bit wider and the loose ends abit further and far in between, yet it is probably the best healing approach to FR that I have seen so far. |
|
|
|
Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2012 : 19:58:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think the thing about the gods has been overstated in the game as late. The gods are powerful, sure, but they shouldn't be ALL POWERFUL. I'd like to see the gods made more like the Greek Gods (who were potent but made mistakes and could be thwarted just like anyone else), and decrease the influence of our modern/RW conception of gods as all powerful, all knowing entities. Shar doesn't know ALL secrets (she just claims that she does), Oghma doesn't KNOW everything, etc.
I've cut some of this out of my own thread (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16093), but here we go:
Problem: The Spellplague and timejump
Reasons: I think we can all agree that something needs to happen with the Spellplague. It's the elephant in the room that is difficult for any of us to ignore. It swept in, neutered a bunch of lore (not removed but made it less relevant), and muddied the waters.
Solution: I would suggest that the 5e FR make an effort (whether through an event or just moving away from it in design) to downplay or otherwise neuter the Spellplague. It was never intended to have such sweeping effects on the 4e FR current setting (i.e. it happened 100 years before and only persists in rare flare-ups), but the perception that the 4e marketing fostered was that it was a big deal. Moving forward with 5e FR, we have an opportunity to correct that, and I suggest that the Spellplague be relegated to the dusty tomes of history as an event that occurred, had sweeping changes, but has largely been forgotten, like the Time of Troubles, the Return of Shade, Lolth's Silence, etc.
As for the lore-lite timejump: as I see it, the big stumbling block of 4e FR was that we advanced 100 years, NONE OF WHICH were filled in. We were given so little hint as to what happened in that time and told to make it up ourselves. No canonical interpretation of WHY things were muddled up, so it just gave rise to all sorts of online debates. This needs to be corrected, at least in some respect. I don't see a need to fill in all that time, but WotC needs to throw us a bone here.
Problem: Kingdom of Many-Arrows
Reasons: Big, cool installation in the Realms that has very little background or explanation.
Solutions: I think the orc kingdom is an awesome thing that is sorely in need of detail and development. I think a novel ala Cormyr or Evermeet would be exactly what the doctor ordered, detailing Many-Arrows from its founding shortly before the Spellplague to the present day (1480). I know Bob was working with it for a while--I don't know what future plans he has for it.
Problem: Halruaa
Reasons: As above--people like it, it's interesting, and yet, it got the dead.
Solutions: As I've seen suggested in another thread, we need a novel or a trilogy about the event of Halruaa's demise and about survivors of the nation going elsewhere. It's already in the 4e FR book--the skyship fleet, as it were--but we should carry it through to the reclamation of Halruaa or at least a new founding nation.
Me, I'd put Halruaa together with Lantan and create a high-magic city-state out of the survivors of both countries.
Problem: The Chosen of Mystra
Reasons: I don't know about you, but when I think of the Realms, I do indeed think of the Chosen of Mystra as being iconic characters that are key to the setting. 4e FR did some rough things to the Chosen (some of which we know about, some are only implied). The issue, though, is that in the hands of an unwary DM, they can seize your game.
Solutions: I'd like to see it established what happened to all of them (dammit!). If nothing else, this would allow you to use them (or their legends) in your game without feeling like you were wandering really far afield, or shoe-horning them in. I don't want their stats (that gives the wrong impression, that you should use these characters as actual antagonists in your game), but I want to see what's going on with them. DMs should get the choice about using them without feeling pressured to do so.
Cheers
Great stuff Erik, I agree on all counts and nominate you as the People's Protector of the Realms. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 00:44:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Problem:
The "core" setting is not based on the Realms, but instead some mixture of Greyhawk and other stuff.
Reasons:
It kinda doesn't make any sense if the Forgotten Realms are the flagship setting. DMs and players always have a DMG and PHB on hand, what's the point of having gods, spells, items, and other elements specific to foreign settings in them? Why not encourage a unified Realms-centric setting as the "core"? New players would probably puzzle over why no Realms locations are given for legendary figures like Mordenkainen, or why there's no temples dedicated to Boccob.
Fixes:
Easy to fix. Just establish the Realms as the "core" setting; remove all the specifically non-Realms content and replace with Realms equivalents. Beltyn's Burning Blood instead of Melf's Minute Meteors, Milil instead of Olidammara, Netherese Stormstars instead of Zagyg's Crazy Birdcage, the Hand and Eye of Vecna don't belong in the Realms while Lathander's Tears do.
I'm not sure if this is really a "problem" at all, to be honest. Just something that mildly miffs me. Who plays Greyhawk anymore, anyways?
The "core" stuff should establish the primary setting for D&D gaming. If not the most prominent setting (ie, the Realms) then a fair representation of all the mainstream settings.
[Edit]
No disrespect intended towards venerated Gygax; I wholeheartedly agree that all those inexplicably "weird" and cool elements have been part of the traditional D&D flavour since they first appeared in 1E. But some of them just don't belong in the Realms, and the work of Ed and Grubb needs some lovin' too.
It must be pointed out that because of planar travel, some spells crafted by mages of other worlds have become known in the Realms. Khelben's Warding Whip, for example, was crafted by the Blackstaff specifically to counter Bigby's Hand spells.
Of course, this also allows the opposite flow-through of Realms-specific spells being cast on other worlds as well.
I recall one instance in the DRAGONLANCE fiction where a particular casting is described, which immediately made me think of a Realms-based magic. It's easy enough to assume that it was indeed likely a Realms spell [though not specifically named as such] because the author of said fiction had also written Realms tales in the past.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 01:16:45
|
quote:
Wooly Rupert
It must be pointed out that because of planar travel, some spells crafted by mages of other worlds have become known in the Realms. Khelben's Warding Whip, for example, was crafted by the Blackstaff specifically to counter Bigby's Hand spells.
Hmmm, that's a good point.
It seems to me that sophistications like Khelben's Warding Whip would be better presented in expansion material, not in core rulebooks. Of course, in the perfect world, I think Planescape should be the "core" D&D setting ... but of course that's just not gonna happen.  |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 01:56:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
Problem: Disappearing/Reappearing Cities/Civilizations/Continents
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Problem: Halruaa
Reason: There's hardly any magocracies in Faerun. Why nuke one?
Fix: Bring it back. By all means feasible.
You, sir, are a part of the problem. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 02:06:33
|
| Actually, I had offered my ideas about Halruaa in a preceding post. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 03:12:25
|
Yes, I don't think disappearing/reappearing cities (i.e. put Humpty-Dumpty back together again) is the way to go--but the evolution of a city is totally cool. See what Ayrik and I said above.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 04:40:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
It must be pointed out that because of planar travel, some spells crafted by mages of other worlds have become known in the Realms. Khelben's Warding Whip, for example, was crafted by the Blackstaff specifically to counter Bigby's Hand spells.
Hmmm, that's a good point.
It seems to me that sophistications like Khelben's Warding Whip would be better presented in expansion material, not in core rulebooks.
You mean like in Forgotten Realms Adventures, which is where it was first presented? 
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 07:59:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Of course, in the perfect world, I think Planescape should be the "core" D&D setting ... but of course that's just not gonna happen.
Who says it can't?
I don't think they will for 5e (depending on who is writing on that topic), but bringing back a unified cosmology (at least wrt to worlds that were part of it like GH, FR, DS, RL - letting Ebberon be off as its own thing) would be a step in the right direction, and it would help clear up some monstrous continuity problems.
There's a lot of 4e planar lore that's mutually exclusive to pre-4e material. And given that it's not as detailed, I would be in favor of handwaving some of it away where needed, and keeping what caused the least amount of headaches. It's easy to say that the planes are mysterious and we don't understand them and thus there are no contradictions. That doesn't work though when we're looking at things out of game and when we look at it with the perspective of the lore from 2e and 3e. You have to ignore whole swathes of material and an entire campaign setting for that, and that's doing a grand disservice to the game's legacy if we stick with the 4e material's changes in that area.
Ultimately though, I think sales will determine what happens. If sales tanked (as I suspect they did), they'll be willing to remove those things that seem most likely to have pushed away their audience, if they think they can get them back. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
|
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 09:08:02
|
I completely agree with Faraer's opening comments; things that were Ed's, worked; things that weren't, worked about half the time, depending on whether Tyche woke up as Tymora or Beshaba that morning. 
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Problem: Halruaa
Reason: There's hardly any magocracies in Faerun. Why nuke one?
Fix: Bring it back. By all means feasible.
This is why I would like to see a simple timeline rewind. I think Apex has a good plan here:
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Problem: Timeline moving too fast/Too many RSE's/Too many cooks in Ed's kitchen.
Reason: Ed's original Realms (what we have seen of them) were spectacular. They were dangerous and developed, but left plenty of room for DM's to innovate on their own without violating canon and yet seemed like a plausible (for fantasy) place.
The Fix: Reboot to the OGB (or before) and then put constraints on the speed of timeline advancement (maybe 6 months Realms = 1 year Earth). Force the fleshing out of the existing time Realms before moving into the future. The ideal solution is to detach the novels from canon (but that won't happen).
Yep. Agreement on all counts, although detaching novels from canon is a tricky concept, simply because half (or more) of the timeline advancement is accomplished through the novels; in 4E, all of it happened that way, because there were no supplemental products to speak of. (No, I didn't subscribe to DDI, but this month's material on Cormyr is sorely tempting me.) I wouldn't mind seeing a reboot to the OGB or earlier, simply because I never cared for the Time of Troubles and the changes it inflicted on the pantheon; Cyric was a lame excuse for an evil deity compared to the Dead Three. On the other hand, it's a shame to waste all of the 2E Realms material (which, if WotC is smart, they'll bring back PDF sales for, particularly if they want to support all eras of play as seems to be hinted at), so maybe a better point is the end of 2E; this gives the designers an opportunity to do something cool with the Manshoon Clone Wars (one of Wooly's pet peeves, I know, as well as one of mine).
As far as the cosmology is concerned, I miss Spelljammer, and the planar cosmology should be consistent among worlds as well, except where dictated by world concept (Birthright, Dark Sun). It's already past canon that wizards have travelled between Krynn, Oerth, and Toril, so don't mess with that. I'm not the biggest fan of the Great Wheel, but we're talking about an arrangement of infinite planes in transfinite, higher-dimensional space, so it's likely that the Great Wheel is simply a visual aid to help our puny mortal minds grasp the cosmos without exploding.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 18 Jan 2012 09:08:53 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 13:45:55
|
I don't think novels should be detached from canon just to fix a timeline issue, or for any reasons. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 13:51:50
|
I wouldn't detach novels either, I think they provide input about the state of the Realms as their content is considered canon, is a window to the situation, conflicts and events, it would be more difficult, at least for me as they are my main source of Realms-related stuff, to keep in touch with the Realms if they were non-canon. Second, maybe is just me, but I wouldn't feel the same reading a novel knowing it is non-canon, i.e. I don't read the same way ultimate Marvel comics than the ones based in 616-earth.
But I think the time constraint is a good idea though |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
Edited by - Thelonius on 18 Jan 2012 13:54:22 |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 20:00:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't think novels should be detached from canon just to fix a timeline issue, or for any reasons.
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
I wouldn't detach novels either, I think they provide input about the state of the Realms as their content is considered canon, is a window to the situation, conflicts and events, it would be more difficult, at least for me as they are my main source of Realms-related stuff, to keep in touch with the Realms if they were non-canon. Second, maybe is just me, but I wouldn't feel the same reading a novel knowing it is non-canon, i.e. I don't read the same way ultimate Marvel comics than the ones based in 616-earth.
But I think the time constraint is a good idea though
I think you're both right, now that I've had some sleep. However, I'd like to see the 3E Cormyr-Shadowdale-Anauroch trilogy become more pivotal, allowing the PCs to actually prevent the Spellplague if they are successful. This would not make the 4E Realms non-canon, but simply one possible canon future - I'd call it Realms-404, but that's my weird sense of humour and my feelings about the Spellplague coming through. Both Spellplague and non-Spellplague Realms would be canon, simply alternate realities within the greater cosmology. Part of me would like to do something similar with the Time of Troubles - possibly even erasing it from history altogether - but I think it creates far too many branch points; two alternate realities is enough for a published setting to try to support. Besides, if you want to go back that far, I would simply suggest a flat reboot to the OGB and the first six supplements, and I'd rather not lose all the material that's been published since then. Any other ideas? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 20:26:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think the thing about the gods has been overstated in the game as late. The gods are powerful, sure, but they shouldn't be ALL POWERFUL. I'd like to see the gods made more like the Greek Gods (who were potent but made mistakes and could be thwarted just like anyone else), and decrease the influence of our modern/RW conception of gods as all powerful, all knowing entities. Shar doesn't know ALL secrets (she just claims that she does), Oghma doesn't KNOW everything, etc.
I've cut some of this out of my own thread (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16093), but here we go:
Problem: The Spellplague and timejump
Reasons: I think we can all agree that something needs to happen with the Spellplague. It's the elephant in the room that is difficult for any of us to ignore. It swept in, neutered a bunch of lore (not removed but made it less relevant), and muddied the waters.
Solution: I would suggest that the 5e FR make an effort (whether through an event or just moving away from it in design) to downplay or otherwise neuter the Spellplague. It was never intended to have such sweeping effects on the 4e FR current setting (i.e. it happened 100 years before and only persists in rare flare-ups), but the perception that the 4e marketing fostered was that it was a big deal. Moving forward with 5e FR, we have an opportunity to correct that, and I suggest that the Spellplague be relegated to the dusty tomes of history as an event that occurred, had sweeping changes, but has largely been forgotten, like the Time of Troubles, the Return of Shade, Lolth's Silence, etc.
As for the lore-lite timejump: as I see it, the big stumbling block of 4e FR was that we advanced 100 years, NONE OF WHICH were filled in. We were given so little hint as to what happened in that time and told to make it up ourselves. No canonical interpretation of WHY things were muddled up, so it just gave rise to all sorts of online debates. This needs to be corrected, at least in some respect. I don't see a need to fill in all that time, but WotC needs to throw us a bone here.
<chop>
Cheers
I completely agree with Erik on this, but my fear is that, in order to accomplish the "quieting" of the Spellplague, we'd see a further time jump forward, and this would be contrary to the rest of the relevant part of Erik's post (yes, I trimmed it a bit for space). My preferred solution is the "alternate timeline" scenario I've presented in my earlier post. It allows PCs to stop the Spellplague and save their favourite NPCs, it retains the canon status of the Spellplague and post-Spellplague material, and it even allows travel back and forth between the two with some new magic... and we know how full of portals the Realms are... in fact, the more I expand the idea, the better it sounds.
I still like the idea of making the entire timeline open to new Realms products, but I really think the Spellplague needs to be "one possible future/present/past" if we are to retain the (laudable) goal of 4E of empowering the PCs; if the PCs can't stop the Spellplague, then we're simply being railroaded, and this was my biggest problem with the whole event in the first place.
Also, Erik makes a good point with the timeline jump; if I want to "make it all up myself" I'll start from scratch, and save my money. The point of a published campaign setting is to save the DM from all that foundational creative work (which Ed has demonstrated such mastery with). Just my thoughts on the matter. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 21:31:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Part of me would like to do something similar with the Time of Troubles - possibly even erasing it from history altogether - but I think it creates far too many branch points; two alternate realities is enough for a published setting to try to support. Besides, if you want to go back that far, I would simply suggest a flat reboot to the OGB and the first six supplements, and I'd rather not lose all the material that's been published since then. Any other ideas?
Alternate realities are done in other settings, sometimes quite well. And I don't see why it can't be done to the Realms. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2012 : 22:20:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Part of me would like to do something similar with the Time of Troubles - possibly even erasing it from history altogether - but I think it creates far too many branch points; two alternate realities is enough for a published setting to try to support. Besides, if you want to go back that far, I would simply suggest a flat reboot to the OGB and the first six supplements, and I'd rather not lose all the material that's been published since then. Any other ideas?
Alternate realities are done in other settings, sometimes quite well. And I don't see why it can't be done to the Realms.
I like your optimism on this, Dennis... here's hoping that others like the idea as well... and after some further thought, one could accommodate a non-ToT branch point rather easily as well, as I mentioned; if we're going to allow a Spellplague avoidance plan, why not give the PCs a chance to save some other gods from oblivion as well? It would also completely open things up for the novel writers, which would resolve a major issue that led to the Spellplague in the first place. Mind you, I'd also love to see other regions get some love... an easy alternative to the Spellplague would have been to leave Faerun and start detailing the rest of Toril, but instead we've seen four editions of Faerun and one half-done look at half of the rest of Toril (in 1st and 2nd editions). That alone makes me sad.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 18 Jan 2012 22:21:49 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 02:18:18
|
For me, having alternate realities is better than completely resetting the timeline. It would also give writers more "freedom." |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 02:34:58
|
quote:
Dennis
For me, having alternate realities is better than completely resetting the timeline. It would also give writers more "freedom."
I see that as a Pandora's box problem.
If the alternate realities/timelines/worlds thing occurs even once then it will become an easy and endlessly recurring staple. The once-original 2E notion of blowing up Mystra has basically turned the goddess of magic into a big fireworks show used to announce each new D&D edition. A setting which incorporates it's own inconstant wavering continuity becomes pointless, just like one where important characters are routinely resurrected each time they fall. Why bother to ever change anything if the next wave of change will wash over your efforts anyways?
Giving the writers options and "freedom" is good. Giving them cheap tricks only leads to ever-increasing escalation and inflation, as each new iteration of the theme has to be grander and more distinct than ever before. To be honest, I don't think fantasy writers should need to be given anything; good ones can create their own fictions. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Jan 2012 02:39:27 |
|
|
|
Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 08:13:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
For me, having alternate realities is better than completely resetting the timeline. It would also give writers more "freedom."
Agreed. They gave Star Trek an alternate timeline, and I really don't see them doing this again. Same goes for the Realms - one new reality is a breath of fresh air. More than that is not cost-effective nor likely to be well-received. And I am of the opinion they are aware of this. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 13:56:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Dennis
For me, having alternate realities is better than completely resetting the timeline. It would also give writers more "freedom."
I see that as a Pandora's box problem.
If the alternate realities/timelines/worlds thing occurs even once then it will become an easy and endlessly recurring staple.
As the old adage (back home) goes, "The "what" in a story comes second to the manner in which it's told." Handle it well, and expect no one (or very few) will complain.
To maintain some sort of continuity, or point of reference, the writers can simply establish a Prime Reality---that which is connected to its alternate versions, and may or may not affect them significantly. Magic: The Gathering did it well, though it's not exactly world-encompassing, more like a localized one. DC's Infinite Crisis somehow touched on this issue and presented some rather interesting possibilities both for the setting and the characters. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 19 Jan 2012 17:44:23 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 15:37:24
|
First off, I've cooled down a bit, and I need to make another post. You know the saying - "When you don't have anything nice to say..." etc - I had to blow off some steam, before I felt I could voice my opinions in a positive manner again.
Second, I'm just not seeing all that much difference between my thread and Erik's, except I used the evil word 'change' (and any 'blending' of all editions is going to require some, weather you think it doesn't or not, which Erik is also touching upon in his thread). So call it a 'rebooting using the old lore (OGB) as a springboard' if that makes you feel any better. Now to my point:
Problem: In-house authors writing novels
Reasons Why: There's no accountability. You think of an idea, you pitch an idea (to yourself), and then tell yourself "what a great idea!" This is how we get one RSE after another. There is no-one 'above' to look at it, weigh it against past lore (or if it even fits the flavor of the setting), and tell you "No". Also, I think they might (subconsciously?) be saving all their 'good ideas' for their novels, or worse, using source to steer the Realms into a place where their stories are possible. Its a conflict of interest, plain and simple (and I can think of a few more reasons, but I won't go there).
Fixes: Let in-house guys write sourcebooks. If they can write novels, they should be able to produce excellently written setting-splats (something, IMHO, I haven't seen in awhile). If they want to write novels, then they should resign (for example, Rich Baker is in a good position now to write conflict-free Realms books).
By way of Explanation: You'll note that nearly all RSE novels are written by in-house guys, and all the 'small' (localized) stories are written by freelancers. Freelancers CAN'T shake the Realms, because they are not allowed to screw with the continuity in such a world-changing fashion. There is no such leash applied to the in-house employees. No matter how creative you are (and I am NOT saying they aren't), sometimes you come up with a turd.
I know - it happened to me, and I epically failed (and learned a valuable lesson). I came up with the kewliest idea ever - Fantasy Old-West, set in the Anchorome of the 1400's (and my regular campaign was set in the 1380's - somebody stole a look at my notes!  ) Anyhow, I spent months collecting everything I needed, adapting stuff from other settings, writing new rules, creating 'kewl' NPCs, etc etc... it was a lot of work, and I thought it was the greatest thing I ever did (at the time). When I had my group roll-up characters for it at our weekly session (wasting that entire session), I failed to note the complete lack of enthusiasm on their part. I figured they just didn't 'get it', and that once they started playing they'd love it (thats the part where I should have realized something was wrong, but was so blinded by my own 'brilliance' that I couldn't see the light for the trees). Needless to say, we played just two sessions and I had to scrap it - no-one was having fun, not even me. The epiphany: No matter how great an idea you think you have, it doesn't mean anyone else will like it.
Now, back to how this applies to what I consider The Realms' greatest problem: I am sure ideas for the novel series and setting are decided by consensus, as it should be. I certainly hope it isn't 'every man for himself' (which it sometimes appears to be - I have to say the 4e setting looked like it was trying to run in 20 directions at once). However, I call that a 'BS Consensus'. Lets look at my own 'kewl campaign' again as an example - my players could have simply told me "No". In fact, several of them tried... but I wouldn't have it. After all, my idea was uber-kewl and they just weren't 'getting it'. I managed to convince them - because we are all friends and they trusted me - to move forward with my concept, despite their trepidations.
And that is precisely how I think we got much of 4e, IMHO. I distinctly recall reading somewhere that RAS and Ed weren't too keen with the new direction (when they were told 'behind closed doors' at some GenCon), but were convinced (Read: Talked into) of its merits. A room full of 'good friends', who don't want to hurt anyone else's feeling, so they go along with it, just because they trust the other person (or people). In the law, we call that a 'mob mentality'. Its a BS-Consensus.
You stick one or two strong personalities in a room, and they can convince anyone of anything. Its a fact... and I am going to avoid the obvious historic examples.
And thats what I mean by 'no accountability' - when you are your own boss, there is no-one to tell you when your ideas just plain suck. When I look back at my 'Old-West meets FR' campaign, I realize now just how cheesy I made it... but I never saw that at the time. I bullied my way through my friends, and forced something they didn't care for on everyone.
This time out, WotC is going for an 'open beta' approach, which is wonderful. They finally understand the usefulness of Focus-Groups. I just hope they apply that to The Forgotten Realms as well (and by the looks of things, and whats going on in these forums, I think they might be).
I have high hopes for 5e, and the Realms - just don't blow it.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2012 15:38:15 |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 15:42:20
|
mmmm not heard of tthat one Dennis....
in other words it would be It's not what you say but how you say it? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 16:48:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Freelancers CAN'T shake the Realms, because they are not allowed to screw with the continuity in such a world-changing fashion.
Troy, RLB, Paul, and Mel are not in-house authors, but some of their novels did shake the Realms. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 17:26:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You'll note that nearly all RSE novels are written by in-house guys, and all the 'small' (localized) stories are written by freelancers.
Accent, mine.
My only mistake was not attaching the qualifying 'nearly' to the second portion of the sentence, regarding 'small' stories. Rich Baker's Blades of the Moonsea is actually a perfect example of a series that puts the lie to my statement - SORRY. A good story doesn't take from the setting - it adds to it. RSE's, by their nature, are destructive.
And if you think any of those authors weren't brought into the 'inner circle' for the project, and precise details of what the series needed to accomplish hammered-out in advance, then you are sadly mistaken. There is no way in the world they were just allowed to write whatever they wanted - even Ed does not have that caveat. For the 'big stories' (not the one-shots, that have no long-range effects), the blueprint is handed to them, and they are told 'build off of that".
On the other hand, some authors are good at it (Paul), while others just make a complete mess of things (Lady Penitent). In other words, some authors are able to take lemons and make lemonade, while others just make some bitter swill. This does not mean those failed (IMHO) series were written by bad authors - I think its more of a matter of what you are given to work with, and how well you know The Realms, which helps you blend the two together.
The more homework you do, the better the final product would appear. I site Elaine's excellent Evermeet: Island of Elves as one of the best examples of an author doing their homework I have ever seen.
Which is probably why every region she (alone) ever worked on got nuked in 4e (but thats fodder for another thread).
If they insist on using in-house authors, then the 5e Realms are doomed from the start. The Realms continuity then becomes driven by a self-perpetuated need to sell novels, which in-turn demands that the books change the setting in major ways, to insure greater sales (some series are considered 'must reads' if you are a Realms fan). If you write a story about 'Bob the warrior', people do not have to buy it (regardless of how good it is). But if an author writes a story about how everything in the Realms changes, then you do have to buy it, just to keep up with the continuity.
Its the same paradigm as Printer companies use (amongst others). Sell the printers cheap (or even give them away, in the case of some companies), and then force them to buy the outrageously priced ink. Customers 'get stuck' spending more and more money, just to continue with what they already have.
If someone works for WotC, it is in their best interest to continue with the RSE-of-the-week, because that drives sales for particular story-lines. We need to go back to a model where good writing sells books, and nothing else. It can never be fixed, so long as they make more money (and pad their portfolios) with stories that smash everything to bits.
IMHO, of course
And now you made me break my own format, dang it. I need to go back to Paizo for another breather. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2012 17:37:54 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 17:53:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
mmmm not heard of tthat one Dennis....
in other words it would be It's not what you say but how you say it?
Forgot to add "back home." I already edited it, though. It's a variation of what you mentioned (which is rather generic). |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 18:12:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
RSE's, by their nature, are destructive.
I disagree. Some RSEs moved the setting, preventing it from suffering needless stagnation. They changed the world, but sometimes the results are good, depending on which angle you try to view it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On the other hand, some authors are good at it (Paul), while others just make a complete mess of things (Lady Penitent).
Relative, I must say. While I consider myself Paul's fan, I understand where others who dislike his novels are coming from. And yes, there are. And while I probably will not read Lady Penitent, I know some who laud it quite loudly, and try to understand the points they use to back up their judgment. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
What would you change? (5e)
