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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 23:33:03
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Therise,
I feel it coming on...say it with me...
CLASS
ACTION
LAWSUIT!
"I take case, for small percentage of payout, divide rest among all Realms lovers, is good." |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 23:44:25
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Remind me to never offend Empress Therise's sensibilities enough that I should have to apologize ...  |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 23:59:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Remind me to never offend Empress Therise's sensibilities enough that I should have to apologize ...
Very wise, as always, noble Ayrik! 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 01:56:32
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What I find interesting is that this is such a powerful debate.
One thing is that people can disguise the realms as a whole, but that is based on some sort of love an interest for the realms.
But this... Basically this tells me, ( if i haven’t missed anything) that 4ed, was a poor design, from poor designers.
I have not searched through every forum on the net or made grand scale inquiries, but what I have don in NEVER met even one person who liked 4ed over 3ed, 2nd, or 1st.
This tells me that not only did WotC try to mimic World of Warcraft in their: you don’t have to read anything to play/ Every class can cast magic. No one is better than the other and everybody is equal.
Poopy!!!
Gosh darn it... I want great big differences in the classes. Not everyone is equal. AAAAAND it is certainly NOT for everyone to work magic.
What their did that was so unforgivable was to try to make "easy" money.
Not knowing his reasons, I cannot and WILL not say anything bad about ED, but WHY oh god WHY did he not remain in charge of his own creation!
The mother of all f...ck ups is assumption! And to me... Someone assumed that everything would be all right, as long as the CEO made a lot of money..... Guess what jack a... YOU didn’t!!!!
You destroyed the realms. And you messed up the whole idea behind RPG.
It had never been about equal rights... it has always been about playing a role, and accepting that.... some are better at something than others.
The most evident evidence of the mistake that 4ed was is this thread. And I so soarly hope that the chiefs and designers read this. And hopefully repent for their transgressions.
To me though… they are unforgivable!
Mod edit: Language. Again.  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Jan 2012 04:51:25 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 02:00:26
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By the way... It's important to say that up until 1375 I LOVED the realms. Both AD&D and 3ed.
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 03:51:44
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I agree with Erik, neutral edition fluff of
all time periods would be the smartest, and
I believe the best selling option. However,
I don't believe it will happen. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 05:09:54
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The edition war is over Nicolai... we won... I think...
But, at what price victory?
I'm glad to see the OD&D, 1e, 2e, 3e, and 4e people will be on the same side now - I just hope it isn't the side all throwing vitriol WotC's way.
Now is not the time to admonish, now is a time for healing.
Oh, and they can keep their hugs and apologies - all I want is quality game material at a reasonable price. Without naming names, we have all seen it can be done. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 07:40:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The edition war is over Nicolai... we won... I think...
But, at what price victory?
I'm glad to see the OD&D, 1e, 2e, 3e, and 4e people will be on the same side now - I just hope it isn't the side all throwing vitriol WotC's way.
Now is not the time to admonish, now is a time for healing.
Oh, and they can keep their hugs and apologies - all I want is quality game material at a reasonable price. Without naming names, we have all seen it can be done.
Pretty much this.
Like Therise, I stopped being angry a long time ago, and resigned myself to being ignored. I have a teenage son, so of course I'm used to being ignored. I just wasn't used to being ignored by a company I had given so much of my precious discretionary money to over the decades. After my initial anger was gone, I felt...tired. And very, very disappointed. Years ago, I suffered from almost crushing depression, and a bit of those old sensations had returned from this. It was like seeing a dear friend in a hospital bed attached to life support and feeding tubes, while I stood helpless at the bedside, the doctors telling me there was nothing wrong, and this was all normal, and to stop worrying.
It took effort by many people to show me where the good in 4th Edition could be found (after the shock of reading through the 4th Edition Realms guides), but I eventually found it. There was still part of it, like the Sword Coast, that echoed the Realms of yesteryear, and as long as the horrible changes wrought on distant lands (like Halruaa) were avoided, I could almost believe that it would all work out. I did not think that 5th Edition would happen along this quickly, though.
I started making notes as to how the 4th Edition Realms could be repaired. Not retconned, for as much as I desire it, a retcon will never happen, and I admit I must agree that it would be rather unfair to the people whose first acquaintance with Faerun was through the time after the Sellplague. That would be doing to them what Wizbro did to us. But it does need repairs, and it needs them very, very badly. Marshall Plan-badly.
The word we should all be keeping close to us right now is 'patience' - few, if any, of the scribes here in Candlekeep are privy to the system now being put through its paces by the Wizards and their minions. They want suggestions? Let's give them what's on our minds, without giving them a piece of our minds. Most of those responsible for the damage are gone (as I understand it), and I think it would behoove us to wait and see what they have planned for our beloved Realms.
They did say it would get support, and they'd be foolish not to at least occasionally surf sites like this and over at eilistraee.org (to name but two), so good money says they are well aware of the opinion of Realms-lovers above and beyond those on their own boards. Like Markustay says, it's healing time - and one thing that this whole episode says to me is that Wizbro is at least trying to apply some triage. Let's see how well they do. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:10:20
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I dunno... I don't feel like there's been any kind of victory here. Victory in what, that the 4E system is going to be replaced? Honestly, I pretty much expected that at some point, perhaps not quite this soon. But I didn't really have anything against the 4E rules system, it was actually okay as an RPG and really quite good for encounters play.
We still don't really know what they will or won't do with the Forgotten Realms, other than a nebulous quote about supporting all play styles. So I imagine they'll do -something- in the future for the Realms, but it'll likely be well after the new 5E rules come out. So a "victory" seems premature to me. If I'd been really super-invested in the 3E rules, it might seem like a victory in some sense, but really I'm not sure if winning an edition war is any "great" kind of thing. And winning by attrition, rather than competition, sort of hollow.
I am very glad about the opportunity, and the invitation, to give feedback to WotC as to what I want most in a future D&D. It feels a bit like the old Gygaxian days, where we aren't just viewed as dollar bills but as part of a community. We may be fractured, but we can't return to that feeling of community without such an invitation. So kudos to WotC, honestly, because if there's any victory here it's theirs for trying to be inclusive again. 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
It's time to accept the changes made to the product and move on. If you just can't live with those changes then just please move on to something else. There are still plenty of people who want to see things move forward. Or just jump back on the bandwagon and help make things better moving forward.
Sorry if this sounds rude but I had to get it off of my chest.
Or accept it and keep doing what you have been doing all along. The "if you don't like it you can bugger off" attitude towards anyone preferring a specific era of the Realms or a edition irritates me. I have no plan to either jump on any bandwagon or to move along to something else; I have been a Realmsfan for nearly twenty years now and as long as I decide to name myself as that I will be just that. Whether I buy the latest product or not.
And I am sorry for singling out this post, as I suspect that was not your point here Caolin, but it is a sentiment I have seen too many times (from all sides) here at Candlekeep and this seemed like the right time to comment on it.
I'm not trying to single out anyone who prefers one particular era. I'm trying to single out those who want to destroy 10-20 years of work by dedicated authors and designers by demanding a reboot to some mythical simpler time in FR. I'm all for opening up the time line to development, I encourage it actually. But a reboot is just plain stupid and destructive.
What I said has nothing to do with editions either, it has to do with respecting other peoples choices and opinions no matter what edition or preference of FR products. Canon follower, rebooter, 1ed. 4ed. whatever, everyone has the right to be realmsfans without being told to **** off by those with other opinions. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:33:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[rant on]
Sigh. I'm so, SO tired of the "4e FR is not the same setting as earlier FR, and that's a fact" thing.
It's all one setting? Good, then the fans of the later versions should have no objection whatsoever to buying game product set exclusively on Midsummer Day, 1357 DR. Glad that's solved. |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:33:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
But how, is the real question? Do they retcon 4e out of existence and say "this never really happened", or do they acknowledge it and go back to supporting numerous different eras? While each plan has limitations, both of these would achieve the desired goal in some respect: getting us a Realms where we can play in.
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Wait for someone to invent a time machine.
We already have a time machine. Here’s a suggestion on how to use it.
This optional adventure starts at any time after the Avatar Trilogy
Players have an event that’s root cause lies in the bad behavior of Cyric or his church. Cyric’s Church wrongs the players. Maybe a fellow player is killed by a Cyric worshipper. Insert whatever cause that allows you can blame Cyric for all you woes, but at the end of the day your players decide it’s time to go back and kill Cyric during the Avatar Trilogy, before he even attains godhood.
Players adventure to figure out how to go back in time.
Mechanics of Time Travel are covered in…
TSR 1147 - Netheril - Empire of Magic boxed set - pg 13
TSR 1165 - Cormanthyr - Empire of Elves – pg 3
Enter NPC who in game wrote the equivalent of the Avatar Trilogy. Richard Awlinson Avatar Trilogy is in game device/prop. The DM hands it the paperbacks. This Richard Awlinson NPC used a crystal ball to witness the event, and wrote it down. Maybe he’s a Rogue High Herald kinda guy. Just as long as the books exist for the players to get, the players have their playbook.
So players while the players read the Avatar Trilogy, and they plot mayhem. The DM dusts off…
TSR 9247 - FRE1 – Shadowdale
TSR 9248 - FRE2 – Tantras
TSR 9249 - FRE3 – Waterdeep
Which with a little planning, a DM could use these oldies as the players attempt to stop Cyric, instead of just helping Midnight. Or you could update them for that purpose, and sell them again.
Maybe the player recover the Tablets of Fate themselves.
And when you go to follow the rules of returning the players to their time, maybe the Wild Magic squelches that. Maybe because the gods were mortalish (new word - trademark) at the time, they don’t have a complete handle on time. Maybe you recovered the Tablets of Fate, and Ao owes you.
Then you have players right at the end of first Edition. Let Ed release all that Lore that is already written, and start selling it to us. Figure out how your going to start selling all the First Edition material again.
And let’s be honest, since everyone who would be interested in First Edition Forgotten Realms downloaded it a long time ago (even though we jealously guard our originals), so re-release it exactly as it was the first time, BUT add additional pages of lore. Example: Releasing Cormyr sourcebooks again? Well doesn’t Ed already have the shields and heraldry done that Wizards could add to the end of that source? I would buy that. Heck, I am buying “Best of Realms” novels just to get the one new story!
BTW, moving forward I don’t know that you need to progress the First Edition timeline. Re-released “Legends” First Edition isn’t “living”. It just gets completed. Ed get those shoeboxes emptied. Win win win.
And the vast majority of products moving forward are available to those that want to move forward.
And Wizards saves face, sells more stuff 4E stuff, starts selling their old stuff… again, Ed gets to clear out shoeboxes of stuff.
… and who knows, maybe you can sell us another optional adventure module to visit 5E..
Sidenote: What a fast moving scroll. Is this what every Friday night is like here? 
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Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:38:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[rant on]
Sigh. I'm so, SO tired of the "4e FR is not the same setting as earlier FR, and that's a fact" thing. It IS the same setting. It's clear in the lore. It's clear in the design philosophy. It's clear in the fact that so many people are working very hard on it.
What you are stating here is an opinion, not a fact. It's like saying America isn't America because we no longer wear wigs and carry around muskets. (And in point of fact, there ARE people who say things like that--it's part of why politics is so messed up at the moment.)
If it doesn't feel like the same setting to you, ok, sure. But don't assert for a fact that it ISN'T.
[/rant off]
I know there are many people out there (some in this very thread) who dislike the 4e Realms so strongly they refuse to pick up anything set there. Fine, great, if that's your thing, that's your thing.
That's why I suggest up the timeline to having books set in all eras--back in 1350, if that's what you like, or catch up with the 1370s, etc. WotC should re-reprint all or at least some of their old lore (which they own) AS WELL AS create new stuff to go along with it.
If you already have the 2e Menzoberranzan set, great, but in case you don't, here it is again, all shiny and new. Oh and by the way, here's an edition-neutral book about drow, including Ched Nasad, notes about Lolth's silence, and these other cities you didn't even KNOW about. Same with Maztica, the North, etc., etc., the list goes on. A veritable treasure trove of potential products.
For you anti-4e peeps and/or reboot advocates, why doesn't that idea appeal to you? What about it offends you? (I'm honestly asking--this is not a rhetorical device.)
And if you *are* open to that, why do you also demand that WotC close off something else that other people enjoy (4e)? Why would you advocate deleting the 4e era--something you don't enjoy, don't read, and don't care about in the slightest--while you enjoy another time? You really want to spite thousands of other Realms fans, who are just as devoted as you are, because you don't like what they like?
That seems just . . . I don't know, wrong to me.
I don't see why everyone can't win. Live and let live.
Cheers
But if you say that there has always been a community of Aztec living along lake Erie you create alternative history no matter if it is in the age of whigs or Fords. and that is how I see the developing canon.
To answer this simply; as I understood this thread is about personal preferences not what may be the best or most logical for the whole: I cant speak for others and neither should they speak for me. I am probably in a minority, but I have given my simple and honest opinion which is an official continuation and a single volume of "back to Ed" Whether this is the best for the Realms objectivity is not my business to decide.
And for me the different eras ideas is far from ideal. It will still have Slade Netheril, it will still be full of "real world" areas that have been added and to make any sense ideas that have been included through the various editions such as dragonborn, planar-mixes, short nosed gnomes, will also have to have a role backwards. There is no logic if something that was introduced as being a standard element in 1370 all of a sudden disappears in the 50's. And with this it looses all appeal as it did wit various 3ed. products which I could see were well written and useful if you liked canon and 3ed., but gave me as a gamer absolutely nothing.
And all of this makes me part of a very small group that WotC or designers may have little advantage in trying to please, but that is my personal preference and choice. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 10:06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Not to dissuade anyone from voting in my own poll, but it seems they already have another RSE already planned and in the works for the Realms, which we'll see in about three months with this upcoming novel:
Spinner of Lies by Bruce Cordell (Apr 2012).
The release notes read: "Spinner of Lies is a sequel to Sword of the Gods, and is also tied to the Rise of the Underdark, an event that will have bold, sweeping ramifications across (and under) the Forgotten Realms." (emphasis mine)
Thoughts? Opinions?
Tied to Rise of the Underdark? This is news to me. Any idea what it means? Lolth has her house in order so now its time to finally begin working on the Second Directive of Lolth or whatever the destroy all surface elves directive means?
I wonder what the Rise of the Underdark will be. I hope it's not what springs to mind first (i.e. the Underdark being erased).
quote:
That's why I suggest up the timeline to having books set in all eras--back in 1350, if that's what you like, or catch up with the 1370s, etc. WotC should re-reprint all or at least some of their old lore (which they own) AS WELL AS create new stuff to go along with it.
If you already have the 2e Menzoberranzan set, great, but in case you don't, here it is again, all shiny and new. Oh and by the way, here's an edition-neutral book about drow, including Ched Nasad, notes about Lolth's silence, and these other cities you didn't even KNOW about. Same with Maztica, the North, etc., etc., the list goes on. A veritable treasure trove of potential products.
Erik, that's a brilliant idea! |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
Edited by - Zireael on 14 Jan 2012 10:09:19 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 12:57:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
But if you say that there has always been a community of Aztec living along lake Erie you create alternative history no matter if it is in the age of whigs or Fords. and that is how I see the developing canon.
Yes. Realms-2008 is a variant setting, a sub-setting: it didn't come out of the Realms' own organic development, or even a designer's personal vision of it (and didn't pretend to): it's a by-product of Wizards of the Coast's recession-driven consolidation to two core brands and the reduction of all settings to a game add-on of one or two sourcebooks, engineered to sell those two books as widely as possible, and without the intent of DMs investing in the setting, as before, for long-term campaigns and product lines. So I think it's just a category error to compare it with the Realms on equal terms.quote:
To answer this simply; as I understood this thread is about personal preferences not what may be the best or most logical for the whole: I cant speak for others and neither should they speak for me.
As usual, there's a certain amount of confusion in this thread between what each of us wants individually and what we suppose might work for Wizards. I think that without knowing what the overall D&D plan is, some of us are being too quick either to assume the workability of certain possibilities or to dismiss them.
Also: it's not necessary to reprint any lore word for word. Let's remember that there's never been a detailed overview sourcebook for any region of the Heartlands, only the Volo's Guides which, while wonderful, are highly focused on inns, taverns and shops and only touch on history, society and everything else, and a couple of short and flawed FRS books. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 16:39:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
Sidenote: What a fast moving scroll. Is this what every Friday night is like here?
Only when the whole game gets a reboot.
I agree with the sentiment about the 4th Edition system itself. It was never the issue for me. I bought the Essential Three before the Realms books came out, and while it really isn't my cup of tea, I have nothing bad in particular to say about it. As a whole, anyways. Sure, there are things that irritate me here and there, but that's true even for Pathfinder, my Game Of Choice. And every other RPG system ever created. We (my own play group) tried 4th Edition in a generic trial run, shrugged and decided it wasn't for us, and have used Pathfinder ever since.
So rebooting the game itself - eh, whatever. I'll likely buy the rest of the system when I can get the books at a secondhand mart or a used bookstore for dimes on the dollar, and maybe see if I can home-rule it into something that shines. Deep-six 'healing surges' right away, certainly, and there are other things I know I could fix.
It is what Wizbro has planned for the Realms that interests me - if it takes a game edition reboot, go for it. No game edition reboot? That'd work, too - the game system is irrelevant to me, so long as the Realms benefits from the effort. |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 16:55:57
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Well, *I'm* just so glad to see so many supporters of the whole Realms setting popping up in this thread! If I had the impression that Candlekeep was 'anti-Realms development', well, I certainly must reevaluate those views now!
And to think, I generated polls on the topic less than a week ago...
BYE! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 16:58:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Yes. Realms-2008 is a variant setting, a sub-setting: it didn't come out of the Realms' own organic development, or even a designer's personal vision of it (and didn't pretend to): it's a by-product of Wizards of the Coast's recession-driven consolidation to two core brands and the reduction of all settings to a game add-on of one or two sourcebooks, engineered to sell those two books as widely as possible, and without the intent of DMs investing in the setting, as before, for long-term campaigns and product lines. So I think it's just a category error to compare it with the Realms on equal terms.
Man, where were you when I needed someone to tell me if 4E FR was part of the "one, true Realms"? I've been apparently living in a delusional state where I have met and spoken with Realms authors in person, including Ed, very briefly, who seemed to have made 4E material set in the Realms with the Realms name on it featuring characters that have been around through multiple editions. Glad you set us 4E fans straight.
quote:
Also: it's not necessary to reprint any lore word for word. Let's remember that there's never been a detailed overview sourcebook for any region of the Heartlands, only the Volo's Guides which, while wonderful, are highly focused on inns, taverns and shops and only touch on history, society and everything else, and a couple of short and flawed FRS books.
Change or in any way, shape, or form alter or add to past lore? Heresy.
Lady Swiftstrike Assassin, if it means anything, I thought of your posts and polls somewhere around page 2 of this thread. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 14 Jan 2012 17:02:21 |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 17:01:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
It was like seeing a dear friend in a hospital bed attached to life support and feeding tubes, while I stood helpless at the bedside, the doctors telling me there was nothing wrong, and this was all normal, and to stop worrying.
Good analogy.
quote:
Sellplague.
Heh. I chuckled at this. Nice typo if that's what it was. 
All this speculation is tiresome. I find it much less stressful to simply go back to the original 2e FR and run things the way I have for over a two decades now regardless of what they may ultimately choose to do. It should have no impact whatsoever on anyone that chooses for it to not do so, and I count myself in that group. I'm beginning to wonder why I am even here or why I even care. Am I interested in the continuity of my Realms perhaps? I have that already by what I do. Do I really have a stake in how others develop my preferred game world? No, not really. I'm a lone voice speaking softly against the roar of the waterfall. Ultimately, it is Wizards that will develop the Realms as they see fit, and seeing how my developments through game play are so much more relevant to me than anything WotC could create (other than perhaps some incidentally useful lore that is usable by anyone), why should I care what Wizards does in the end? I consider Wizards as merely a secondary resource for Realmslore. Nothing more. They're not really the movers and shakers of MY Realms. They may think they are, but they're not. I am, and the brilliant and creative minds of people on sites like this are. That's where the real Forgotten Realms lives. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 17:19:12
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Nailed it, Varl.
Some of us *like* to play in the sandbox.
Others just like to take as much sand as they can from others, then run home and play.
I think that the 'real Forgotten Realms' is not *your* Forgotten Realms, Varl. I think your Forgotten Realms is a cheap, antiquated, broken down, junk-part mash-up of the Realms. The real Forgotten Realms is the Grand History of All your Stories, my stories, Ed's stories, Scribe Dennis' weird stories, Markustay's *even weirder* stories... ad infinitum!
So be part of the coolclub, or steal from the coolclub and go hide in your cave. We got plenty.
quote:
Originally posted by Varl
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
It was like seeing a dear friend in a hospital bed attached to life support and feeding tubes, while I stood helpless at the bedside, the doctors telling me there was nothing wrong, and this was all normal, and to stop worrying.
Good analogy.
quote:
Sellplague.
Heh. I chuckled at this. Nice typo if that's what it was.
All this speculation is tiresome. I find it much less stressful to simply go back to the original 2e FR and run things the way I have for over a two decades now regardless of what they may ultimately choose to do. It should have no impact whatsoever on anyone that chooses for it to not do so, and I count myself in that group. I'm beginning to wonder why I am even here or why I even care. Am I interested in the continuity of my Realms perhaps? I have that already by what I do. Do I really have a stake in how others develop my preferred game world? No, not really. I'm a lone voice speaking softly against the roar of the waterfall. Ultimately, it is Wizards that will develop the Realms as they see fit, and seeing how my developments through game play are so much more relevant to me than anything WotC could create (other than perhaps some incidentally useful lore that is usable by anyone), why should I care what Wizards does in the end? I consider Wizards as merely a secondary resource for Realmslore. Nothing more. They're not really the movers and shakers of MY Realms. They may think they are, but they're not. I am, and the brilliant and creative minds of people on sites like this are. That's where the real Forgotten Realms lives.
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Gambit
Learned Scribe
110 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 19:16:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[rant on]
Sigh. I'm so, SO tired of the "4e FR is not the same setting as earlier FR, and that's a fact" thing. It IS the same setting. It's clear in the lore. It's clear in the design philosophy. It's clear in the fact that so many people are working very hard on it.
What you are stating here is an opinion, not a fact. It's like saying America isn't America because we no longer wear wigs and carry around muskets. (And in point of fact, there ARE people who say things like that--it's part of why politics is so messed up at the moment.)
If it doesn't feel like the same setting to you, ok, sure. But don't assert for a fact that it ISN'T.
[/rant off]
I know there are many people out there (some in this very thread) who dislike the 4e Realms so strongly they refuse to pick up anything set there. Fine, great, if that's your thing, that's your thing.
That's why I suggest up the timeline to having books set in all eras--back in 1350, if that's what you like, or catch up with the 1370s, etc. WotC should re-reprint all or at least some of their old lore (which they own) AS WELL AS create new stuff to go along with it.
If you already have the 2e Menzoberranzan set, great, but in case you don't, here it is again, all shiny and new. Oh and by the way, here's an edition-neutral book about drow, including Ched Nasad, notes about Lolth's silence, and these other cities you didn't even KNOW about. Same with Maztica, the North, etc., etc., the list goes on. A veritable treasure trove of potential products.
For you anti-4e peeps and/or reboot advocates, why doesn't that idea appeal to you? What about it offends you? (I'm honestly asking--this is not a rhetorical device.)
And if you *are* open to that, why do you also demand that WotC close off something else that other people enjoy (4e)? Why would you advocate deleting the 4e era--something you don't enjoy, don't read, and don't care about in the slightest--while you enjoy another time? You really want to spite thousands of other Realms fans, who are just as devoted as you are, because you don't like what they like?
That seems just . . . I don't know, wrong to me.
I don't see why everyone can't win. Live and let live.
Cheers
I can only speak for myself personally. I began playing D&D with 2E, shortly after I was introduced to the wondrous and magical land known as the Forgotten Realms. In that time I have acquired many (though sadly not all) AD&D FR products, sourcebooks, and novels. I purchased every single 3E FR sourcebook that was released. And though I didnt always agree with every single official change to the setting (such as the reclamation of Myth Drannor, I thought it should be left an adventure locale for players), it was still the same setting, with the same places, and the same characters and vibrant personalties I had known and loved all this time. Markus and I are much in agreement here.
Enter 2008
Wizards of the Coast, in an attempt to appease people who never ventured into and supported the Forgotten Realms financially the way I had for years, activates a world altering tactical nuke. The design philosophy being that catering and pleasing the passionate (some use the word hardcore, whatever pleases you) is a bad business move and they need to draw in all the people who have bashed the Realms over the years for various things...too many gods...too much lore...high level NPC's, and the list goes on and on. They forsook us for other "potential" customers.
So I ask you sir, given a company that has shown a complete disregard for what most of its longterm supporters want, going so far as to intentionally destroy what those supporters hold most beloved, why should I support said company with my most valuable resource (to them), my wallet? |
Edited by - Gambit on 14 Jan 2012 19:25:12 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 20:01:01
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Wizards of the Coast needs to put Ed on a salary so he can retire from his day job and just hammer out content for books and DDI articles, provided that's what he would want to do of course. I'm not sure what the economy is in his area, but here in North Dakota you can live pretty comfortably on 70k a year, but you get the idea. At any rate, I just resubscribed to DDI last nite to catch up on articles for the last six months and I really love the work that has come out with the Realms, especially Ed's articles and the various Cormyr ones that just came out this month are great.
The one thing I was thinking while reading all these new articles, is they would probably have alot more subscribers if they produced more content. And I define great content as Eye on the Realms and Backdrop articles as the primary ones i adore. I think the problem that WotC makes is that they are looking at their online venue as a magazine still, with a set amount of articles per month. They should post two or three times as much lore per month as they currently do. Ed has a house full of lore and this is probably the most cost effective way for WotC to get it published. Let's hear from Ed once or twice a week and I would never unsubscribe. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 14 Jan 2012 20:01:55 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 20:10:09
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| Ed likes working at the library. Even if WotC were to offer him a full time job, I am not sure he would take it. Though The Lady Hooded one would know better than I. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 20:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Gambit
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[rant on]
Sigh. I'm so, SO tired of the "4e FR is not the same setting as earlier FR, and that's a fact" thing. It IS the same setting. It's clear in the lore. It's clear in the design philosophy. It's clear in the fact that so many people are working very hard on it.
What you are stating here is an opinion, not a fact. It's like saying America isn't America because we no longer wear wigs and carry around muskets. (And in point of fact, there ARE people who say things like that--it's part of why politics is so messed up at the moment.)
If it doesn't feel like the same setting to you, ok, sure. But don't assert for a fact that it ISN'T.
[/rant off]
I know there are many people out there (some in this very thread) who dislike the 4e Realms so strongly they refuse to pick up anything set there. Fine, great, if that's your thing, that's your thing.
That's why I suggest up the timeline to having books set in all eras--back in 1350, if that's what you like, or catch up with the 1370s, etc. WotC should re-reprint all or at least some of their old lore (which they own) AS WELL AS create new stuff to go along with it.
If you already have the 2e Menzoberranzan set, great, but in case you don't, here it is again, all shiny and new. Oh and by the way, here's an edition-neutral book about drow, including Ched Nasad, notes about Lolth's silence, and these other cities you didn't even KNOW about. Same with Maztica, the North, etc., etc., the list goes on. A veritable treasure trove of potential products.
For you anti-4e peeps and/or reboot advocates, why doesn't that idea appeal to you? What about it offends you? (I'm honestly asking--this is not a rhetorical device.)
And if you *are* open to that, why do you also demand that WotC close off something else that other people enjoy (4e)? Why would you advocate deleting the 4e era--something you don't enjoy, don't read, and don't care about in the slightest--while you enjoy another time? You really want to spite thousands of other Realms fans, who are just as devoted as you are, because you don't like what they like?
That seems just . . . I don't know, wrong to me.
I don't see why everyone can't win. Live and let live.
Cheers
I can only speak for myself personally. I began playing D&D with 2E, shortly after I was introduced to the wondrous and magical land known as the Forgotten Realms. In that time I have acquired many (though sadly not all) AD&D FR products, sourcebooks, and novels. I purchased every single 3E FR sourcebook that was released. And though I didnt always agree with every single official change to the setting (such as the reclamation of Myth Drannor, I thought it should be left an adventure locale for players), it was still the same setting, with the same places, and the same characters and vibrant personalties I had known and loved all this time. Markus and I are much in agreement here.
Enter 2008
Wizards of the Coast, in an attempt to appease people who never ventured into and supported the Forgotten Realms financially the way I had for years, activates a world altering tactical nuke. The design philosophy being that catering and pleasing the passionate (some use the word hardcore, whatever pleases you) is a bad business move and they need to draw in all the people who have bashed the Realms over the years for various things...too many gods...too much lore...high level NPC's, and the list goes on and on. They forsook us for other "potential" customers.
So I ask you sir, given a company that has shown a complete disregard for what most of its longterm supporters want, going so far as to intentionally destroy what those supporters hold most beloved, why should I support said company with my most valuable resource (to them), my wallet?
We'll just have to see what we are given for 5E. The Realms will probably be fixed or patched up, at least I'm hoping so. And while I sort of like the PoL generic campaign and some of its elements, I wouldn't mind seeing that shelved and just supporting the PoL idea set way back in Faerun's past. It'd be a blank slate they are looking for and would be set far enough in the past where you could write tons of lore for it and not worry about messing anything up. |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 20:31:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Nailed it, Varl.
Some of us *like* to play in the sandbox.
Others just like to take as much sand as they can from others, then run home and play.
I think that the 'real Forgotten Realms' is not *your* Forgotten Realms, Varl. I think your Forgotten Realms is a cheap, antiquated, broken down, junk-part mash-up of the Realms. The real Forgotten Realms is the Grand History of All your Stories, my stories, Ed's stories, Scribe Dennis' weird stories, Markustay's *even weirder* stories... ad infinitum!
So be part of the coolclub, or steal from the coolclub and go hide in your cave. We got plenty.
There was a scribe, once known as Brace,
at trolling he was quite the ace!
He took great delight
in starting a fight
and coming back with a different face!
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 20:37:51
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Oh, stop it. This smacks of the WotC board, and doesn't belong in Candlekeep. Take it to PMs or drop it. Please.
Mod edit: edited for content. See my post below. |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Jan 2012 22:52:08 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 21:21:23
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Again, we've got a lot of excitement, a lot of emotional investiture in the Realms swirling around here folks. So, no surprise people might be a bit jumpy.
Well all know it has been a long and dejected wait for those adherents of the Mystra driven Realms these last few years hoping for some good news to undo the disastrous changes of 1385. I had certainly gotten to the point where I figured 4E was here to stay and we'd never get back to an official Realms product I could live with. So, it's kind of a shock to suddenly see 4E end and the Realms be opened back up to the prospect of something akin to what it was pre 1385. Even if it is your dream, or you suddenly feel immensly vindicated (and not just that lone crank wailing in the wilderness, Lol), it is still a huge thing to absorb quickly.
What's worse, after giving up hope, to suddenly have hope again is a risk in and of itself. Those of us hoping for a good outcome are nevertheless skeptical about whether one will actually come to pass. Those not accepting the events of 1385 have wandered far and wide in our own home-brewed solutions and generally live in Realms way off the path of the new canon. That, and the fact that it was WoTC who brought us 4E Realms in the first place, makes us naturally reluctant to get TOO excited for fear of having this one and only shot of recapturing a canon Realms we can sign on to end in disappointment. If there is another 2008 style disappointment I think a number of people will just give up the ghost and pack in their hopes for any sort of comeback.
In a way, the various lovers of the pre Spellplague Realms are a bit like Mystra's chosen after her fall, living in isolation and madness, eating rats for lunch (if you'll pardon the off key analogy, Lol). We are hoping for the return of an icon whose continuing absence tests our ever more difficult to sustain faith. And, let's face it people, whatever happens will likely NOT be exactly what we want (regardless of what your personal view on that is) to happen.
However, there is reason to hope. We largely seem to agree on this: Ed gave us the Realms and his vision for it is something that, while we all don't always agree with 100%, we trust will deliver us a setting we can respect and find pleasure in. In case it hasn't been obvious so far, he is clearly involved in whatever WoTC has in store for the 5E Realms. Have a little faith he knows what he's about.
So, let's relax a bit, send our feedback where it needs to go, and use the power of this fully operational battle statio...oh right, sorry wrong universe, of this dedicated forum community (probably the single most devoted Realms lore community in existence) to convince WoTC to address as many of our concerns as is practical. I have a background in electoral politics, so I know more than a little about the power of activist groups. The Candlekeep Community is, if it sets it's mind to the task, probably the best co-ordinated lobbying group possible for WoTC to consult with. No doubt their people are members of this forum and are monitoring these daily chats seeking feedback. It's the smart communications move. I say a bit of old fashioned 'pulling together' and 'organizing' is in order here. Let's bend our collective efforts to agreeing on a few central points and in communicating those points to WoTC.
Anyone think that's a better idea than just forming the ubiquitous circular firing squads?
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
Edited by - Kris the Grey on 14 Jan 2012 21:24:40 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 21:41:39
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| Guess I'm stuck in the 1360-1370 DR timeframe and 3.0/3.5e rules. Since for me the story is more important than the ruleset, I do not really care for where 5e or newer incarnations take the realms. I have much if the old FR material (Grey boxed set through 3.5e material) and therefor plenty of material to use for and in games. Maybe somewhere down the line if ever my kids take up the Forgotten Realms I might show some interest in a version that is current at that time, but for now I'll stick to my pre-Spellplague sandbox |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1303 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 22:03:12
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| Just would like to add support for edition neutral lore source books akin to Volo's guides and Grand History of the Realms set in all different time periods from Arcane Age to Post Spell Plague and everything in between. I would definitely buy those on release date. IIRC Volo's guides had references to 2nd edition stats sprinkled in the footnotes and appendixes, if possible they could do that for the current edition when it's published to support the 5th edition ruleset; but it would still make the source material useful for those playing 1st-4th edition. |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 22:48:38
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Well, excuse me for sticking up for the designers of the Forgotten Realms setting, Olde Man Harpell! So what if some folks like to get their jollies talking a bunch of trash about the hard work of the 4e Forgotten Realms design team! You sure have a bunch of support around here! But *I* think that a lot a great ideas have came from the guys and gals that worked on the 4e Realms,ok? You can sneer behind your keyboard and call all the fun me and my group have had participating in the Realms after 'Sellplague' lame all you want or whatever, but I think the Realms in the Year of the Ageless One is really cool, even cooler than the Realms in the Year of Wild Magic, or whenever! Me and my group are using *all* the lore, Arcane Age to the *real* present, the year after the Year of the Ageless One; and it's not a 'Shattered Realms' or tragedy, it's really, really cool! So why you can sit there and say that your old moldy, '90's rule' Realms works for you, fine!
But don't hold all the awesome progress that has been made back just because you're old and can't hang with the times! If you want the old source books, you can go get them! There is no excuse for not having a complete set, what with you being old and having soooo... much disposable income or whatever!
Geez!
Mod edit: edited for content. See my post below. |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Jan 2012 22:53:16 |
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WotC is asking for input, so...
Topic Locked
