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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 18:35:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Why pay X amount of dollars for a reprint of 2E materials if you already have those materials?
For the record, most of the 2E material is not readily accessible for newer gamers, and/or for older gamers who need to replace that older material. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 18:37:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Why pay X amount of dollars for a reprint of 2E materials if you already have those materials?
For the record, most of the 2E material is not readily accessible for newer gamers, and/or for older gamers who need to replace that older material.
I have plenty of 2E stuff which i wouldn't mind replacing with new crisp copies...assuming of course that WoTC didn't slap some lame over-the-top comic book art on the cover |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 18:38:59
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| The more horror tales I encounter, the more seriously I consider somehow backing up my AD&D materials. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 18:46:44
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Why pay X amount of dollars for a reprint of 2E materials if you already have those materials?
For the record, most of the 2E material is not readily accessible for newer gamers, and/or for older gamers who need to replace that older material.
I have plenty of 2E stuff which i wouldn't mind replacing with new crisp copies...assuming of course that WoTC didn't slap some lame over-the-top comic book art on the cover
Yep. It is called nostalgia, and it sells big (especially since it is us with the disposable cash that companies love). Over the last few years I have gotten a mint/unused 2nd ed PHB (original cover), Forgotten Realms Adventures, and a shrink wrapped FR Monstrous Compendium. I would gladly buy almost every 1st/2nd reprint just to get that new book vibe like I used to get when I originally bought them years ago.
As for the reset. A lot of it has to do with the maps and what not. 4E simply doesn't jive with the original Realms at all, they are almost 2 different worlds. Sure, I can play whenever I want (mostly I set my games in the 1340s anyways), but it is about getting new lore that is easy for me to use that would bring my wallet back to the game.
As for reading the novels, I began with Darkwalker the year it came out and religiously read everything up until 3E began, at which point I read more selectively (mostly due to time contstraints), but I will simply not pick up a 4E set novel. It just isn't the Realms to me at all, it is another world. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 19:40:21
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[rant on]
Sigh. I'm so, SO tired of the "4e FR is not the same setting as earlier FR, and that's a fact" thing. It IS the same setting. It's clear in the lore. It's clear in the design philosophy. It's clear in the fact that so many people are working very hard on it.
What you are stating here is an opinion, not a fact. It's like saying America isn't America because we no longer wear wigs and carry around muskets. (And in point of fact, there ARE people who say things like that--it's part of why politics is so messed up at the moment.)
If it doesn't feel like the same setting to you, ok, sure. But don't assert for a fact that it ISN'T.
[/rant off]
I know there are many people out there (some in this very thread) who dislike the 4e Realms so strongly they refuse to pick up anything set there. Fine, great, if that's your thing, that's your thing.
That's why I suggest up the timeline to having books set in all eras--back in 1350, if that's what you like, or catch up with the 1370s, etc. WotC should re-reprint all or at least some of their old lore (which they own) AS WELL AS create new stuff to go along with it.
If you already have the 2e Menzoberranzan set, great, but in case you don't, here it is again, all shiny and new. Oh and by the way, here's an edition-neutral book about drow, including Ched Nasad, notes about Lolth's silence, and these other cities you didn't even KNOW about. Same with Maztica, the North, etc., etc., the list goes on. A veritable treasure trove of potential products.
For you anti-4e peeps and/or reboot advocates, why doesn't that idea appeal to you? What about it offends you? (I'm honestly asking--this is not a rhetorical device.)
And if you *are* open to that, why do you also demand that WotC close off something else that other people enjoy (4e)? Why would you advocate deleting the 4e era--something you don't enjoy, don't read, and don't care about in the slightest--while you enjoy another time? You really want to spite thousands of other Realms fans, who are just as devoted as you are, because you don't like what they like?
That seems just . . . I don't know, wrong to me.
I don't see why everyone can't win. Live and let live.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 19:54:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[rant on]
Sigh. I'm so, SO tired of the "4e FR is not the same setting as earlier FR, and that's a fact" thing. It IS the same setting. It's clear in the lore. It's clear in the design philosophy. It's clear in the fact that so many people are working very hard on it.
What you are stating here is an opinion, not a fact. It's like saying America isn't America because we no longer wear wigs and carry around muskets. (And in point of fact, there ARE people who say things like that--it's part of why politics is so messed up at the moment.)
If it doesn't feel like the same setting to you, ok, sure. But don't assert for a fact that it ISN'T.
[/rant off]
I know there are many people out there (some in this very thread) who dislike the 4e Realms so strongly they refuse to pick up anything set there. Fine, great, if that's your thing, that's your thing.
That's why I suggest up the timeline to having books set in all eras--back in 1350, if that's what you like, or catch up with the 1370s, etc. WotC should re-reprint all or at least some of their old lore (which they own) AS WELL AS create new stuff to go along with it.
If you already have the 2e Menzoberranzan set, great, but in case you don't, here it is again, all shiny and new. Oh and by the way, here's an edition-neutral book about drow, including Ched Nasad, notes about Lolth's silence, and these other cities you didn't even KNOW about. Same with Maztica, the North, etc., etc., the list goes on. A veritable treasure trove of potential products.
For you anti-4e peeps and/or reboot advocates, why doesn't that idea appeal to you? What about it offends you? (I'm honestly asking--this is not a rhetorical device.)
And if you *are* open to that, why do you also demand that WotC close off something else that other people enjoy (4e)? Why would you advocate deleting the 4e era--something you don't enjoy, don't read, and don't care about in the slightest--while you enjoy another time? You really want to spite thousands of other Realms fans, who are just as devoted as you are, because you don't like what they like?
That seems just . . . I don't know, wrong to me.
I don't see why everyone can't win. Live and let live.
Cheers
I didn't state anything as a fact. As a matter of fact, i actually said "It [4E Realms] just isn't the Realms to me at all, it is another world." I am pretty sure the "to me" makes this my opinion.
Second, I didn't say delete it at all. I said go back to the OGB as the default time of the setting. Unless WoTC decides that there is no default time (and I doubt this), there must be one and therefor I am advocating 1357. Having said that, as has been stated here several times, one of (if not the) driving forces behind the whole timejump/spellplague was to get away from a canon heavy setting and to make it simpler and more customizable. Continuing to publish more info about the 4E Realms flies in the face of that original justification for the jump in the first place. We have a reasonably playable 4E Realms setting, let's leave it at that and get back to fleshing out all the holes that were left in the 1350's by moving the timeline so quickly. Everyone still wins. The 4E players get their canon light setting, but also get access to all the "new" historical lore (if they want it) and the 1st/2E/3.X crowd gets tons more lore for their time period of choice. And all this gets to happen under the limitations on RSE's, since that part of the timeline would already be in place (hard to have a RSE in the rebooted 1360 that no one had known about before after all). |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 20:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[rant on]
Sigh. I'm so, SO tired of the "4e FR is not the same setting as earlier FR, and that's a fact" thing. It IS the same setting. It's clear in the lore. It's clear in the design philosophy. It's clear in the fact that so many people are working very hard on it.
What you are stating here is an opinion, not a fact. It's like saying America isn't America because we no longer wear wigs and carry around muskets. (And in point of fact, there ARE people who say things like that--it's part of why politics is so messed up at the moment.)
If it doesn't feel like the same setting to you, ok, sure. But don't assert for a fact that it ISN'T.
[/rant off]
I know there are many people out there (some in this very thread) who dislike the 4e Realms so strongly they refuse to pick up anything set there. Fine, great, if that's your thing, that's your thing.
That's why I suggest up the timeline to having books set in all eras--back in 1350, if that's what you like, or catch up with the 1370s, etc. WotC should re-reprint all or at least some of their old lore (which they own) AS WELL AS create new stuff to go along with it.
If you already have the 2e Menzoberranzan set, great, but in case you don't, here it is again, all shiny and new. Oh and by the way, here's an edition-neutral book about drow, including Ched Nasad, notes about Lolth's silence, and these other cities you didn't even KNOW about. Same with Maztica, the North, etc., etc., the list goes on. A veritable treasure trove of potential products.
For you anti-4e peeps and/or reboot advocates, why doesn't that idea appeal to you? What about it offends you? (I'm honestly asking--this is not a rhetorical device.)
And if you *are* open to that, why do you also demand that WotC close off something else that other people enjoy (4e)? Why would you advocate deleting the 4e era--something you don't enjoy, don't read, and don't care about in the slightest--while you enjoy another time? You really want to spite thousands of other Realms fans, who are just as devoted as you are, because you don't like what they like?
That seems just . . . I don't know, wrong to me.
I don't see why everyone can't win. Live and let live.
Cheers
I didn't state anything as a fact. As a matter of fact, i actually said "It [4E Realms] just isn't the Realms to me at all, it is another world." I am pretty sure the "to me" makes this my opinion.
Second, I didn't say delete it at all. I said go back to the OGB as the default time of the setting. Unless WoTC decides that there is no default time (and I doubt this), there must be one and therefor I am advocating 1357. Having said that, as has been stated here several times, one of (if not the) driving forces behind the whole timejump/spellplague was to get away from a canon heavy setting and to make it simpler and more customizable. Continuing to publish more info about the 4E Realms flies in the face of that original justification for the jump in the first place. We have a reasonably playable 4E Realms setting, let's leave it at that and get back to fleshing out all the holes that were left in the 1350's by moving the timeline so quickly. Everyone still wins. The 4E players get their canon light setting, but also get access to all the "new" historical lore (if they want it) and the 1st/2E/3.X crowd gets tons more lore for their time period of choice. And all this gets to happen under the limitations on RSE's, since that part of the timeline would already be in place (hard to have a RSE in the rebooted 1360 that no one had known about before after all).
And for people who like the Post Spellplague world but didn't vote for this loreless version? The ones who are buying the books because they like the story and want to see it continue? Why deny them when what Erik is saying will still give you what you want (more for the other parts of the timeline)? You are again assuming facts not in evidence. Show me where the majority who presently like the 4E Realms ever asked for a lore lite setting or have any desire to see the 4E Realms remain a lore lite setting. I've had the mispleasure of speaking with some people who screamed and yelled about the supposed "problems". Guess what? They didn't buy the 4E FR, just like they didn't buy the 3E. They had complaints built upon misconceptions coupled with a complete and utter lack of imagination. Most of the people who I have come across (I admit this is anecdotal) who thought the things the Spellplague "fixed" were problems in the first place didn't play 3E FR and don't play 4E FR.
I like the stories. I want them to continue. I also want to know more about the Crown Wars, Manshoon's Clone Wars, Ancient Nethril, Imaskar, Narfell, etc. Just because I want stories set around the time Thay was founded doesn't mean I can't also want stories set in the current Thay and it doesn't mean they can't coexist. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 20:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
And for people who like the Post Spellplague world but didn't vote for this loreless version? The ones who are buying the books because they like the story and want to see it continue? Why deny them when what Erik is saying will still give you what you want (more for the other parts of the timeline)? You are again assuming facts not in evidence. Show me where the majority who presently like the 4E Realms ever asked for a lore lite setting or have any desire to see the 4E Realms remain a lore lite setting. I've had the mispleasure of speaking with some people who screamed and yelled about the supposed "problems". Guess what? They didn't buy the 4E FR, just like they didn't buy the 3E. They had complaints built upon misconceptions coupled with a complete and utter lack of imagination. Most of the people who I have come across (I admit this is anecdotal) who thought the things the Spellplague "fixed" were problems in the first place didn't play 3E FR and don't play 4E FR.
I like the stories. I want them to continue. I also want to know more about the Crown Wars, Manshoon's Clone Wars, Ancient Nethril, Imaskar, Narfell, etc. Just because I want stories set around the time Thay was founded doesn't mean I can't also want stories set in the current Thay and it doesn't mean they can't coexist.
Sorry, I got to call BS here. The "designers" have clearly stated that they wanted to change the Realms to make it so that "Running adventures and campaigns in 4E FR doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge of Realms history. Anyone who reads the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide will feel like they can run a Realms-based adventure or campaign without treading on thousands of years of history." That completely contradicts the idea that lore should be pushed out again, as it would create the "problem" all over again. Also, this statement ""We're not going to destroy Cormyr, level Waterdeep, or blow up Silverymoon, for instance. We like these places as much as anyone. However, there are some parts of the world that aren't quite so beloved and don't have much happening in or around them. Many of these areas are likely to undergo some level of change." shows just how little these so-called "designers" cared about the Realms, as many areas had lush histories that intrigued gamers. Both of these quotes come from a transcript from Chris Perkins blog posted over here a while ago (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10075). From the horse's mouth so to speak. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 20:41:26
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I think it is possible to have 2 levels of lore in a single sourcebook. You want want an overwiew of Waterdeep, its basics and all you need to make a great quest in this city? There ya go, 10 chapters of general lore, most that can be applied to any date (with a glimpse here and there of how it was "back then"). Now the next 10 chapters will offer more in-depths information of a few taverns, NPCs and current plots in the shadows, all of which that can easily be set before or after the Spellplague.
There you go, a sourcebook that everyone can enjoy. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 20:42:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
And for people who like the Post Spellplague world but didn't vote for this loreless version? The ones who are buying the books because they like the story and want to see it continue? Why deny them when what Erik is saying will still give you what you want (more for the other parts of the timeline)? You are again assuming facts not in evidence. Show me where the majority who presently like the 4E Realms ever asked for a lore lite setting or have any desire to see the 4E Realms remain a lore lite setting. I've had the mispleasure of speaking with some people who screamed and yelled about the supposed "problems". Guess what? They didn't buy the 4E FR, just like they didn't buy the 3E. They had complaints built upon misconceptions coupled with a complete and utter lack of imagination. Most of the people who I have come across (I admit this is anecdotal) who thought the things the Spellplague "fixed" were problems in the first place didn't play 3E FR and don't play 4E FR.
I like the stories. I want them to continue. I also want to know more about the Crown Wars, Manshoon's Clone Wars, Ancient Nethril, Imaskar, Narfell, etc. Just because I want stories set around the time Thay was founded doesn't mean I can't also want stories set in the current Thay and it doesn't mean they can't coexist.
Sorry, I got to call BS here. The "designers" have clearly stated that they wanted to change the Realms to make it so that "Running adventures and campaigns in 4E FR doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge of Realms history. Anyone who reads the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide will feel like they can run a Realms-based adventure or campaign without treading on thousands of years of history." That completely contradicts the idea that lore should be pushed out again, as it would create the "problem" all over again. Also, this statement ""We're not going to destroy Cormyr, level Waterdeep, or blow up Silverymoon, for instance. We like these places as much as anyone. However, there are some parts of the world that aren't quite so beloved and don't have much happening in or around them. Many of these areas are likely to undergo some level of change." shows just how little these so-called "designers" cared about the Realms, as many areas had lush histories that intrigued gamers. Both of these quotes come from a transcript from Chris Perkins blog posted over here a while ago (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10075). From the horse's mouth so to speak.
Then explain to me why Lore centric products set in the Post Spellplague world are still selling. Why does the setting warrant another product like Neverwinter (which was mostly lore) in the form of the Menzo book this year? Why do the novels, which are devoid of crunch, still keep selling?
And what exactly are you calling BS on? My opinion? Conversations I have actually had? Okay, apparently you know better than me what I think and have experienced. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 20:49:15
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Hello, first time poster here. I've been a lurker for many years in here and the Wizards Community. It's a bit strange to be posting here finally.
Anyway... if I had it my way, and I mean it *all* the way, I'd do a revision of the Realms, which would mean keeping most of the stuff up to 2E and some of 3E. None of the events of 4E or those leading into it would be included, simply because I didn't like a single one of them. (Hey, it's my Realms, isn't it?) Then I'd either keep advancing the timeline making sure every new product didn't deviate from my idea of the Realms, or freeze the timeline in an appropriate date and keep building the past and present.
Of course, I don't actually own the Realms  . I am supposed to give an opinion on the direction of the setting within the constraints of reality. So the best I could hope for would be for some new supplements and novels (or parts of them) to be published which are set in the pre-Spellplague era. They could make FRCS-style books detailing each era broadly and then release supplements on more specific subjects and regions which comprise the entire timeline up to 4E. Novels could be set in any time period. Something analog to the treatment Star Wars D20 was given. I guess it's close to what de Bie and Markustay among others are suggesting, but perhaps a bit too resource-heavy for Wizards, I'm not sure. But that would make me buy the "Classic Era" setting, most supplements and likely some novels. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 20:54:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's clear in the design philosophy.
Eh? The Realms-2008 design philosophy was so far from the Realms' in so many ways that you could (and I did) list quotations from Ed each followed by opposite statements from the 2008 designers. Maybe it's changed for the Neverwinter book.
I would be content with various versions of the multi-era scenario, by the way. |
Edited by - Faraer on 13 Jan 2012 20:58:23 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 20:55:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Then explain to me why Lore centric products set in the Post Spellplague world are still selling. Why does the setting warrant another product like Neverwinter (which was mostly lore) in the form of the Menzo book this year? Why do the novels, which are devoid of crunch, still keep selling?
And what exactly are you calling BS on? My opinion? Conversations I have actually had? Okay, apparently you know better than me what I think and have experienced.
How do you know they are selling? We have gone over this before. Just because something is being published does not mean it is selling (at least selling well) and it says nothing at all about if they are actually making profit on it (you know, the idea of a business). Do we know for a fact the novels are selling? Do we have numbers from previous edition novels to compare them to?
I am calling BS on any revisions to history on why the 4E Realms were created. The "designers" spelled it out in black and white. You (and others) can like the 4E Realms, but you cannot say the WoTC intentions weren't to create a more lore-light setting that was more in line with points of light than it was with other Realms history. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 21:01:39
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| THe 2nd edition rules were inferior to the 4th edition rules....that is why they were changed. 5th edition should be something new, improved, and different. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 21:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Then explain to me why Lore centric products set in the Post Spellplague world are still selling. Why does the setting warrant another product like Neverwinter (which was mostly lore) in the form of the Menzo book this year? Why do the novels, which are devoid of crunch, still keep selling?
And what exactly are you calling BS on? My opinion? Conversations I have actually had? Okay, apparently you know better than me what I think and have experienced.
How do you know they are selling? We have gone over this before. Just because something is being published does not mean it is selling (at least selling well) and it says nothing at all about if they are actually making profit on it (you know, the idea of a business). Do we know for a fact the novels are selling? Do we have numbers from previous edition novels to compare them to?
How long has the 4E Realms been going? They are still printing books. They are not, apparently, coming our with any Dark Sun or Eberron books this year (as near as I can tell). This tells me that they aren't afraid to distance themselves from non-selling parts of the line. If that is the case, the logical assumption is that the part still getting support is still making money. I can't help if you can't grasp this concept. I welcome you to find where I said they were selling as well as... well pretty much anything. Unlike you, I don't make one assumption after another and try to call it hard fact. I am interpreting the facts we do have. FR books are still being written and published years after the Spellplague became a known variable. Show me, with real numbers, how it makes any sense to still be publishing books years later if they aren't making money. Otherwise, please, just stop.
quote:
I am calling BS on any revisions to history on why the 4E Realms were created. The "designers" spelled it out in black and white. You (and others) can like the 4E Realms, but you cannot say the WoTC intentions weren't to create a more lore-light setting that was more in line with points of light than it was with other Realms history.
I welcome you to cite where I said that wasn't their intention. If you would read my posts, you would note I have chosen my words carefully to convey what I mean, not what you think I mean. I will wait for that quote from me. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 21:20:26
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Yup, its Friday the 13th because I agree with tyrant.
I can go to a bookstore and buy a new FR novel. Or an old FR novel that is being reprinted. I would have to go to a used bookstore for a Birthright novel, Greyhawk novel, Ravenloft novel. And that ladies & gentlemen is how I know a novel line is selling. See I did all that without a MBA!! As for the product line…. it is selling. This is the reason why we have Neverwinter, the Undermountain thingy, coming out after they (WotC) told us there would only be a campaign book, players guide, an one adventure. The information they gathered from the DDI told them to produce more Realms material....because it is selling. And another indicator that the Forgotten Realms is selling...it is once again the first campaign setting being published for 5E.
Do we really need to see the numbers from the publishes or can we just for once look at the Barnes & Nobles bookshelf.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 21:23:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
How long has the 4E Realms been going? They are still printing books. They are not, apparently, coming our with any Dark Sun or Eberron books this year (as near as I can tell). This tells me that they aren't afraid to distance themselves from non-selling parts of the line. If that is the case, the logical assumption is that the part still getting support is still making money. I can't help if you can't grasp this concept. I welcome you to find where I said they were selling as well as... well pretty much anything. Unlike you, I don't make one assumption after another and try to call it hard fact. I am interpreting the facts we do have. FR books are still being written and published years after the Spellplague became a known variable. Show me, with real numbers, how it makes any sense to still be publishing books years later if they aren't making money. Otherwise, please, just stop.
Please take a few businesses classes and get back to me. If you cannot understand concepts like sunk costs (ie these books were already under design/contract and had already cost them money), profit margins (they may be able to get their money back or maybe lessen their loss from 100% down to 50% by publishing instead of shelving), then I don't know how else to explain this. Many product line lose money for years and still stay around (especially if their losses can be covered by other more profitable parts of the company (ie magic). The Realms probably does sell the most books of any 4E line and they may have had more books in development (hoping to make some cash), but that doesn't signify that they were actually profiting nor does it signify that even sales of Realms stuff is good (by any standards). All it shows is that the Realms is the best piece of rotten meat of the bunch and that they think they might be able to get some sunk costs back on committed 4E projects before 5E rolls out. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 21:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
How long has the 4E Realms been going? They are still printing books. They are not, apparently, coming our with any Dark Sun or Eberron books this year (as near as I can tell). This tells me that they aren't afraid to distance themselves from non-selling parts of the line. If that is the case, the logical assumption is that the part still getting support is still making money. I can't help if you can't grasp this concept. I welcome you to find where I said they were selling as well as... well pretty much anything. Unlike you, I don't make one assumption after another and try to call it hard fact. I am interpreting the facts we do have. FR books are still being written and published years after the Spellplague became a known variable. Show me, with real numbers, how it makes any sense to still be publishing books years later if they aren't making money. Otherwise, please, just stop.
Please take a few businesses classes and get back to me. If you cannot understand concepts like sunk costs (ie these books were already under design/contract and had already cost them money), profit margins (they may be able to get their money back or maybe lessen their loss from 100% down to 50% by publishing instead of shelving), then I don't know how else to explain this. Many product line lose money for years and still stay around (especially if their losses can be covered by other more profitable parts of the company (ie magic). The Realms probably does sell the most books of any 4E line and they may have had more books in development (hoping to make some cash), but that doesn't signify that they were actually profiting nor does it signify that even sales of Realms stuff is good (by any standards). All it shows is that the Realms is the best piece of rotten meat of the bunch and that they think they might be able to get some sunk costs back on committed 4E projects before 5E rolls out.
So you're guessing. Just like I have said all along. You can go on and on about business concepts (that, I might add, you would probably do well to quit assuming you and only you understand) but without demonstrating in some meaningful way that they actually apply to this case (these would the facts and evidence I have repeatedly asked for), you are just spinning your wheels. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 13 Jan 2012 21:31:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 22:16:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
How long has the 4E Realms been going? They are still printing books. They are not, apparently, coming our with any Dark Sun or Eberron books this year (as near as I can tell). This tells me that they aren't afraid to distance themselves from non-selling parts of the line. If that is the case, the logical assumption is that the part still getting support is still making money. I can't help if you can't grasp this concept. I welcome you to find where I said they were selling as well as... well pretty much anything. Unlike you, I don't make one assumption after another and try to call it hard fact. I am interpreting the facts we do have. FR books are still being written and published years after the Spellplague became a known variable. Show me, with real numbers, how it makes any sense to still be publishing books years later if they aren't making money. Otherwise, please, just stop.
Please take a few businesses classes and get back to me. If you cannot understand concepts like sunk costs (ie these books were already under design/contract and had already cost them money), profit margins (they may be able to get their money back or maybe lessen their loss from 100% down to 50% by publishing instead of shelving), then I don't know how else to explain this. Many product line lose money for years and still stay around (especially if their losses can be covered by other more profitable parts of the company (ie magic). The Realms probably does sell the most books of any 4E line and they may have had more books in development (hoping to make some cash), but that doesn't signify that they were actually profiting nor does it signify that even sales of Realms stuff is good (by any standards). All it shows is that the Realms is the best piece of rotten meat of the bunch and that they think they might be able to get some sunk costs back on committed 4E projects before 5E rolls out.
Naaa, I'll do what certain scribes do and stick with Wiki when it comes to simulating "businesses classes"....unless you want to pay for my MBA. Then hell brother, hook me up.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - Bakra on 13 Jan 2012 22:18:21 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 22:21:55
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I think a lot of the ire flowing around here can be attributable to an unfortunate fact of life.
With the introduction of 4E, WoTC made TWO major changes simultaneously, both unpopular.
First, they changed the core game system. Whether we are talking the abandonment of the 'Vancian' magic system, or the 'MMORPGing' of D&D, or whatever other bugaboo might suit your fancy, a certain number of 'old schoolers' just didn't see the new game as D&D. Maybe some sort of spiritual successor, but just not the same animal as had limped from Basic, to 1E, through to 3.5E. This number was MUCH greater than in any of the prior edition jumps.
Then, and more importantly, you had the HUGE changes to Realms themselves that went beyond anything done in the transition from 1E to 2E or 2E to 3E. It wasn't only that they killed off some central characters, or that they gutted the 'magic rich/high fantasy' feel of the setting, or that it was done so quickly OFF SCREEN (we STILL don't have a book that actually explains the central event of the Spellplague, Mystra's death, written in the manner of Prince of Lies), or even that it required a 100 year leap into the future (and in so doing killed off just about every beloved character from every novel series set in the Realms), it was that it did ALL of these things AT ONCE.
In dealing with any new form of D&D that is designed to 'reunite the faithful under the banner of the Holy Mother Church' (Catholic dogma circa mid 1500's style) you have those dual issues that motivate the hardcore anti 4E folks (of which I will have to admit I am one) that need to be dealt with to get them back into the fold. It is REALLY hard to come back from that without SOME sort of changes to the 4E timeline.
I'm practical, so I get that a 'Dynasty' style 'dream sequence solution' is unlikely (although given that it IS a fantasy setting all sorts of things COULD happen), but if the designers don't do SOMETHING to rehook old 1370's guys like myself then they will never achieve their goal and 'restore the faith' to any semblance of its former glory. They can give us 'timeless' setting books or materials published for both pre and post Spellplague or they can (as Ed seems to be doing) try to rebuild the post Spellplague era into something folks all the way back to 1E would enjoy.
You know what would be nice though? An apology. An 'oops we goofed in our assumptions about the way to go with 4E Realms' admission statement from the powers that be. Consider it a public relations act. If BP can issue an apology anyone can. Lol.
Now, I'm not saying they have to flagellate themselves, but it wouldn't hurt say that they 'meant well', but just didn't quite get what the fans wanted right. I'm a divorce lawyer, I see people on the worst days of their lives, and a little 'I wasn't TRYING to be a jerk' goes a long way. Trust me on that one.
Hey, it's even free.
Do that and a lot of us haters will either need to man up and stop hating already (I mean, ding dong the 4E witch is dead, that can be a healthy amount of satisfaction right there) or risk devolving into bitter spiteful creatures clinging to our hate as the only thing that keeps us warm at night.
So, (in answer to the original poster) if I had my way, WoTC would issue a statement saying 1) 'oops we goofed', 2) assuring us that the creative team in charge of bringing the Realms back in to shape is staffed with people we trust, 3) who are being given the creative freedom to ensure a good outcome, and 4) that they want to do what it takes to end the 4E Realms hate so they are deliberately asking not only what fans want to see in a 5E rules set, but in a 5E Realms as well.
Now, in answer to the 'Dynasty' fans (since I do also enjoy playing Devil's Advocate), if a huge number of fans report back to WoTC that they WANT a total 1385 redo, shouldn't WoTC grant one? I mean, they are a business. If 50,000 people want a Realms dominated by evil intelligent My Little Ponies (TM and all that jazz), shouldn't they be in the business of giving it to them? (Let's hope not, but you can follow that argument). Bottom line, WoTC needs to ASK us what we want and we need to TELL them. Otherwise people, shut up already and get back to wargaming! Lol.
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 22:40:32
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| If old 1370s 3E-era guys like yourself are going to be hard to hook, then the even older 1350s 1E-onwards grognards like me are swimming in waters too deep and dark to be worth fishing for. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Jan 2012 22:41:47 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 22:53:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
... My Little Ponies (TM and all that jazz), shouldn't they be in the business of giving it to them?
My Little Owlbears! With rainbow heart action and bitey beaks!
=glee!= <3
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 13 Jan 2012 22:55:01 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 23:01:16
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[rant]
I'd just like to point-out (to no one in particular) that the designers consistently referred to the 4e FR setting as 'the NEW setting'.
'New' =/= 'old'
At no time in the past, between editions, was FR ever referred to as 'the new setting'. It was always just 'The Realms'. Thats a fact you can check - the podcasts are still available for viewing. If the guys creating it are saying its a new setting, then it is a new setting - they are the ones that built it.
With each of the other editions, no matter how different mechanically (and inconsistent lore-changes), there was a flow from one period to the next - there was no major break in years. They'd skip a couple sometimes, but the flow still felt unbroken, and you could 'translate' your old character into the new rules. This wasn't possible in 4e - not without a lot of hokey back-story (like the party being in stasis, etc).
The coastlines changed, the landscape changed, the national borders and political climate changed, nearly all the old characters were dead, the storylines changed, old groups (the Zhents) were gone and new ones replaced them, many old deities gone and New deities (some without explanation) taking their place, entire continents gone-missing and a new one taking its place, new races arriving and old ones changing, an entire new world (Abeir) to contend with, Primordials, new cosmology, etc, etc, etc...
Precisely what was the same about the 4e setting? The name? If you'll recall, they took that away to - its all just 'D&D' now.
[/rant]
I really didn't want to do that, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em. My opinions have nothing to do with who I like or who I don't like, so I hope I haven't offended anybody. And thats what it is - MY OPINION... but I simply do not feel any emotional connection to the 'new setting'.
And this from a guy who is currently fervently defending the 4e players in all of this (new debacle). Don't treat them the way we were treated - they have invested a lot in the new setting and they shouldn't be ignored. There is room for all of us - FR is a big, wonderful place. Lets try to find something that fits all of our styles and eras of preference. The last thing we want is another mass exodus.
How well did the multi-era thing work for DL? I don't know enough about it - did that do more harm then good? We/they need to be taking a long, hard look at that right now.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If old 1370s 3E-era guys like yourself are going to be hard to hook, then the even older 1350s 1E-onwards grognards like me are swimming in waters too deep and dark to be worth fishing for.
Eloquently put {insert clapping smiley}
There is so much here they need to consider - I do not envy them at all. If Monte pulls this out of his arse, he should be sainted (or made an in-game Exarch). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2012 23:13:04 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 23:03:01
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Ayrik,
So did you want be the Axis or the Allies in our classic "World in Flames" match?
;) |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 23:05:53
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Therise,
Now you are talking.
Don't forget the esteelauder prestige class! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 23:08:00
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Markus,
I duly amend my demands to WoTC. Make that an apology AND some hugs (and cookies, I also want some nice warm chocolate chip cookies!).
I do feel you there dawg. Trust me.
:) |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 23:12:24
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Speaking purely as a realms novel reader, I feel that what has been missing in 4e is quality. I find that (most) stories being told are inferior to previous editions. I used to buy every new title but now I only buy a select few.
The reasons for this inferiority are (for me)-
4e is such a change that I no longer feel drawn into the world, it may as well be an entirely different world altogether.
The quality of writing has dropped dramatically. I haven't read all of the 4e books but those I have haven't impressed me at all. (Not read any of yours yet Eric, before you jump on me).
Until we get some of the good storeytelling back and a world that is more familiar, then I will continue with my apathy for the realms.
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Edited by - Arcanus on 13 Jan 2012 23:32:22 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 23:18:25
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lol Kris the Grey, my ancient Axis & Allies is what they apparently now call A&A: Classic ... close scrutiny of the much-worn-and-taped-together box reveals not a single Wizards nor Hasbro logo anywhere (Milton Bradley, eh?) ... the World At War 1939-1945 expansion box appears to be what we would call a "non-canon" addon (and a rather amateurish one, at that). Seems the game has undergone some ten or so revisions since I bought mine - who knew? Nonetheless, it has provided countless hours of wholesome WWII entertainment.
Markus did drive the stake home on one issue, I think - it stopped being the Realms and simply became "a D&D setting" when Wizbro stripped the once-prominent FR logo from all their "Realms" products and novels. I realize they eventually reversed this decision and now the logos are (at least sporadically) seen on their publications. But to my mind this clearly demonstrates their thinking and views towards the Realms at the time - not as a world so much as a branded legal property. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Jan 2012 23:29:56 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 23:25:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
Markus,
I duly amend my demands to WoTC. Make that an apology AND some hugs (and cookies, I also want some nice warm chocolate chip cookies!).
I do feel you there dawg. Trust me.
:)
They owe us:
- an apology... a good one, perhaps with jewelry
- hugs (only if they look normal)
- cookies, fresh baked
- a tub of java chip frappuccino ice cream
- a new Saturday morning cartoon
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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WotC is asking for input, so...
Topic Locked
