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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 18:54:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From Sorcery in YOUR Realms page 5.
Even in another Crystal Sphere, one must assume some version of this exists.
An interesting question came to me after reading your statement.
First, cosmology has always been my weakest knowledge area and the area I most came to research so this may be a poor question. If so, I apologize in advance.
It is my understanding that the Phlogiston surrounds the various crystal spheres containing the different worlds in the D&D multiverse. It is also my understanding that it was supposed to be extremely combustible - ergo a potential energy source when viewed from the proper prospective.
Accordingly, is it possible to hypothesize that the Phlogiston might be the means of connecting the various versions/elements of 'The Weave' as it is known in the differing crystal spheres as suggested by your above statement?
In other words, each sphere's deity of magic draws power from the Phlogiston, 'weaving' its raw resources/energy into 'The Weave' as known by each sphere's inhabitants and thereby changing it's nature in a fundamental sense and allowing it to exist inside a spheroid. Even if the 'gas-like medium' isn't isn't the actual 'raw magical energy' as I'm asking, might it serve as a means of conduction or transport (reference SpellJammer's Flow Rivers) or contain it similar to the way salt is dissolved into ocean water?
I'd love to hear the thoughts of the scribes as it directly relates to my 'deployment project' where I was trying to find a way to combine all of the various D&D settings into one uni-multiverse.
Good Hunting!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 19:15:04
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| It's not a bad idea, except for the fact that is well-established, in Spelljammer canon, that it is not possible for phlogiston to exist within a crystal sphere. And planar travel/access is limited to crystal spheres -- so there is no way that anyone within a crystal sphere can tap into the phlogiston. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 19:49:44
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Agreed. Maybe I didn't explain my thought process very well. I'll try to clarify in an effort to better understand. Like I said, cosmology has always been my weakest link so I may not explain what I'm thinking in a clear manner because I don't fully understand it myself.
I wasn't suggesting that the Phlogiston was able to 'exist' inside a sphere. Obviously that is completely impossible and very well-established. It's also obviously canon that mortals/deites know the Phlogiston exists - due to SpellJamming if nothing else. I am asking that if through the openings in the spheres, called Portals, it could hypothesized that each sphere's deity of magic would be able to 'reach through' the portal, similar to the way you could reach through an open window.
I'm kind of sketchy on the how to explain the next part in my line of thinking so could use some help for my homebrew ideas. By making some sort of 'fundamental change' in the essence of the Phlogiston at the portal boundry layer between Sphere and The Flow, in other words the Phlog isn't the Phlog anymore similar to how wood is no longer wood after being burned, and controlled by each sphere's deity of magic, could that be used to explain the connection between similar but not identical magics in each sphere?
Maybe a better way to explain it would be similar to a matter-antimatter reaction. The Phlog annihilates when it comes into contact with matter from a Sphere. The resultant energy is harnessed by each sphere's deity of magic and worked into that sphere's version of 'The Weave' as MT hypothesized in his statement.
Thoughts?
Good Hunting! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 00:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
I am asking that if through the openings in the spheres, called Portals, it could hypothesized that each sphere's deity of magic would be able to 'reach through' the portal, similar to the way you could reach through an open window.
It's certainly an interesting hypothesis. And since we really don't have enough information on how a deity relates -- directly -- with the Phlogiston, I suppose it would be possible to establish some fundamental aspect of a divine power's make-up that allows them to "touch" and "shape" the Phlogiston into a form that can exist within a Crystal Sphere.
quote:
I'm kind of sketchy on the how to explain the next part in my line of thinking so could use some help for my homebrew ideas. By making some sort of 'fundamental change' in the essence of the Phlogiston at the portal boundry layer between Sphere and The Flow, in other words the Phlog isn't the Phlog anymore similar to how wood is no longer wood after being burned, and controlled by each sphere's deity of magic, could that be used to explain the connection between similar but not identical magics in each sphere?
Perhaps the deity's own divine essence -- which I presume would carry some hint of the Crystal Sphere's physical laws -- enacts a physical change in the Phlogiston itself, when touched by the power, shaping it in a way that makes it a mutable quantity for both the deity and his/her Crystal Sphere.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 01:10:47
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Phlog is some sort of massless formless inert vacuum energy nothing-stuff which somehow contains high quantities of volatile potential energy that can be readily catalyzed/ignited into a violently released surge?
By our physics - which I'll admit I understand not as well as the theoreticians and experts - this potential energy cannot exist within the phlog stuff itself ... it must be somehow channeled from some externalized source; ie: some adjacent universe (or perhaps another plane of existence, in D&D terms). It must also be subject to (catalyzing/igniting) forces within our universe (plane) which can be used to affect, manipulate, even contain it. Although I confess such forces might be of an order or complexity which mortals cannot readily perceive or comprehend.
Does D&D canon provide any definition for pure void or emptiness which doesn't even contain phlogiston? Does a sphere of annihilation consume phlog? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Dec 2011 01:14:44 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 01:48:33
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| Are there different categories, types, or grades of phlogiston? |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 02:14:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Does D&D canon provide any definition for pure void or emptiness which doesn't even contain phlogiston? Does a sphere of annihilation consume phlog?
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Are there different categories, types, or grades of phlogiston?
The Phlogiston has never been a fully nor well-defined material -- even in the actual SPELLJAMMER books. It's left, largely, as an exotic backdrop that, I think, wasn't supposed to feature prominently in campaigns as anything other than a means of travel through the multiverse and between Crystal Spheres.
In other words, there's a lot left open for interpretation when it comes to understanding how the Phlogiston works in relation to our physical laws. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 04:03:05
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| It rapidly preserves and "petrifies" living things, even gods; it has little effect on undead or unliving things. It combusts with explosive force when exposed to flame, perhaps also when exposed to other energy sources. It seems to prevent entropy and decay, yet it is still seemingly affected by the passage of time. It swirls around like a luminescent misty fog and is apparently harmless, even when inhaled, over short periods of exposure. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 04:58:08
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I've got it!
It's the "God Particle" that everyone has been searching for!
Ok, hilarity aside it seems for my homebrew idea I can speculate pretty much anything as a plausible idea since as Sage said it's never been well-defined as a materiel, even in the SpellJammer books. About the best description I could find was "a gas-like substance that is extremely flammable" when I was looking around.
I think Sage is probably correct in his thought that it wasn't supposed to figure prominently except as a means to speed up travel between spheres. Put mundanely, we needed an 'ocean' with 'currents' for SpellJammer 'ships' to sail in. The Phlogiston fit the bill.
I'll have to brew this idea a bit and see what comes of it.
@Ayrik - Where did you find the info about "It rapidly preserves and petrifies living things, even gods...."?
Based on your description, it seems as though they're describing it as two polar opposites at the same time so maybe it could be some sort of collossal cosmic building block with endless possibilities that when molded by knowledgable hands can be used to "make" or "power" stuff. In other words, the gods give power to the mortals so, what gives power to the gods?
Things that make you go....hmmmmmmmmm....
Good Hunting!
Edit: Got lazy, didn't proofread. *sigh* |
Edited by - Wolfhound75 on 24 Dec 2011 04:59:36 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 06:03:47
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I cannot recall the specific source, but it's standard-issue Spelljammer lore. People who fall overboard deplete their "air envelope" in fairly quick order, but somehow the magical phlogiston preserves/petrifies their flesh and places them into a sort of dormant stasis state before they can die. Exposure to normal air/etc somehow magically revives them in a similarly rapid manner; jumping overboard can be a desperate last-hope attempt to avoid death. Individuals can drift through the Flow for months or centuries, many gratefully join the crew when rescued.
Lost gods, ancient, forgotten, cast away, or thought to be dead, also drift dormant through the Phlogiston and the Astral, far away from those parts of the Flow frequented by spelljammers. Some sources name one such monolithic stony titan-god serving as the capital floating city-fortress of the Githyanki, Queen Vlaakith is said to have established a psionic link through which she parasitically draws divine power from this unconscious entity. Some legends suggest that the true Spelljammer may have forgotten it's own origins as a lost god who somehow adapted to live within the phlogiston. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 06:29:08
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My own theory is that material planes exist only within the boundaries of crystal spheres. A material plane extends to the shell of the crystal sphere, but no further. Crystal spheres are suspended in a volume of space, but what is the nature of that space? My answer: it's the Plane of Shadow.
The Shadow Plane permeates the entire multiverse, and links different worlds and alternate realities together. See the 3e Manual of the Planes p.61 and especially the illustration on p.62.
Within the boundaries of a crystal sphere, the Shadow Plane reflects the material world and appears as the Shadowfell. Outside the crystal sphere, there is no matter to reflect, so it looks quite different.
But Shadow is not merely darkness; shadow is the interplay of darkness with light. The phlogiston is a glowing, colored gas that permeates the plane of Shadow in the empty interstices between crystal spheres. The phlogiston is Shadow reflecting itself. Or alternatively it is composed of virtual particles of probability, spontaneous quanta of ether trying to form an ethereal plane in the midst of a vacuum. The luminosity of the Phlogiston may be a kind of cherenkov radiation given off by the continual creation and annihilation of these virtual particles.
The shell of a crystal sphere may be an orbifold. A transition boundary demarcating a gauge symmetry breaking between a state of sufficient etheric potential necessary to support a material plane and a state of probability that is too low to support the existence of matter.
In 2e, the ethereal plane was the plane of pure potential. Things could come into being spontaneously in the ethereal plane. The elemental planes distilled out of and floated within the ethereal. Out of the elemental planes the material plane formed.
With regards to the Realms, we are told that Ao created Toril's crystal sphere in the midst of an empty patch of Phlogiston. It has been stated in several sources that this crystal sphere was filled with a uniform, grey mist--which I take to mean an empty Ethereal Plane. See the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide p.41
All the celestial bodies of the Material Plane formed afterward, in a manner I can only surmise followed the plan mentioned above: the Inner Planes distilled out from the raw potential of the Ethereal, and the Material Plane formed from the elementary particles generated from the Elemental Chaos--perhaps as a byproduct of the Chaos "cooling" and segregating into discreet layers; or perhaps as an act of creation by the gods, such as Selūne and Shar.
So to sum up: the shells of crystal spheres are boundaries or envelopes surrounding volumes of sufficient potential to allow a material plane to exist. These crystal spheres float in the Shadow Plane. Within the boundaries of a crystal sphere the Shadow plane reflects the material world and appears as the Shadowfell. Outside of crystal spheres lies a void; there, the Shadow Plane has nothing to reflect, except for itself. The luminescent gas called phlogiston that fills the Shadow Plane is either the Shadow Plane reflecting itself or virtual particles of ether creating themselves spontaneously and then disintegrating in a colorful glow. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 07:24:07
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I suppose given the 4E conception of D&D cosmology, phlogiston is some sort of indefinable proto-reality stuff which can be shaped by will and power into worlds, planes, gods, life, anything imaginable. I agree that crystal spheres seem to function as horizons which delineate the boundaries between "universe" subsets; different "physical" rules and constants apply within each one. (We are of course most familiar with those worlds which are similar to our own.)
The presence of the Flow, currents between worlds, suggests that conditions in the phlogiston are not uniform. Density and consistency of the phlog must vary throughout the "void" between worlds/universes (crystal spheres) it occupies; furthermore, it must have some sort of "inertia" which responds to cosmic forces or influences, moving around much like water and weather. I suppose it is theoretically possible (and therefore, given enough time also inevitable) that phlogiston will naturally shape itself into gods or other things of its own accord. It is not consistently affected by entropy (the natural tendency for things to disintegrate or diffuse into simpler particles), so it might be gradually affected by the reverse (the natural tendency for simple particles to order themselves into larger more complex constructs).
I speculate that the barriers between phlogiston and astral likely also vary, in some places they must be interchangeable, in others the properties of one manifest greater precedence*. Worlds isolated from the Flow (like Athas) are consequently impossible to reach via any practical spelljamming methods and difficult to access ("far away") via methods of planar travel which must intersect the astral. I suppose the ethereal which surrounds and permeates primes is some sort of rarified phlogiston surrounding world-planes similar to an atmospheric envelope, whereas the wildspace existing within crystal spheres might be some sort of contaminated, spent, or "heavy" phlogiston debris.
I wonder how alien the Far Realms really are. Are they just a remote zone of shared phlog-stuff that's shaped (from our point of view) in some bizarre and incomprehensible fashion? Or are they the boundary/intersection of an entirely alien universe?
* Some species, notably Githyanki and perhaps elves, use ships which can transit through phlogiston and astral (or other planes) with equal ease. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Dec 2011 07:47:15 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 07:58:19
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Following your conception of the foundation of worlds being the Shadow Plane, the construction of crystal spheres might not require complex multi-dimensional orbifold symmetries. They could simply be spheres of crystal which act as prisms; bending, focussing, and diffracting light (and shadow) into the patterns they contain. Which is my way of saying that they might not be fantastic artifacts of creation so much as simple containers.
I wonder if crystal spheres can be shattered, and if fragments of a crystal sphere could serve any useful purpose. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 09:11:33
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| Personally I ignore Spelljammer crystal spheres and have used phlogiston or plasma for a state and type of ethereal matter. Demiplane of Shadow, the Ethereal Plane and Elemental Chaos they are all simplified into one. So creatures like the elmarin don't blow up in contact with phlogiston. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 15:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I wonder if crystal spheres can be shattered, and if fragments of a crystal sphere could serve any useful purpose.
Per canon, there is nothing that can damage a crystal sphere.
That said, there is a shattered one -- in the novels, it was the birthplace of the Spelljammer. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 19:39:45
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Gray and I once had a great discussion about this on the WotC boards, and agreed about certain 'absolutes' within our theories (regarding the Shadowfel, as he discussed above). I have since expanded upon that basic supposition, and I am sure he has as well.
As of now, I feel everything in the universe exists in at least three different 'states', or 'dimensions, if you will. Basically, at the center is the Prime Material, 'above' it are the heavens (upper planes), and 'below' it are the hells (lower planes). I use 'above' and 'below' figuratively, since we are actually talking about movement in a 4th dimension. The Feywild is the reflection of the 'real world' on the underside of the heavens (the upper planes being all 'shiny and reflective', naturally). The shadowfel, on the other hand, is the shadow cast by the Prime material onto the hells; in other words, the light from the upper planes is blotted out on the lower by the Prime Material plane itself. This light is not visible light as we now it, but Radiance (which may or may not be the magical term for UV light). also, the amount of it that is blocked is dependent upon the 'thickness' (for lack of a better word) of portions of the Prime. The way I figure it, the greater the corruption present in something, the 'thicker' it becomes cosmically, and the Radiance has a harder time penetrating it. Ergo, the darkest portions of the Shadowfel would be the reflection of the morally darkest parts of the Prime Material World.
All three - the material World, the Shadowfel (formally the Negative Plane), and the Feywild (formallly the Positive Plane) overlap; literally co-exist within the same space. In order to travel between them, one has to have some sort of 'second sight' - something Mages and magical creatures usually have. You first enter a border-realm formerly know as the border Ethereal, and from there you can travel either 'up' or down' into the other two worlds. This border has many names, and has been called The Wood between the Worlds, the Ways, the Path of Shadows, the 'In-Between', and 'The Veil', amongst numerous others.
As one goes deeper into the border, one will either enter the Feywild, or the Shadowfel, and both have been mistakenly referred to as 'The Deep Ehereal' (mostly the Shadowfel). The border region only exists within Crystal Spheres - once outside of them you must enter another transitive plane, which could be the Shadowfel or Feywild, depending upon the means, magic, or arcane transport being used. Planeswalkers will often use 'boats' that can travel between the worlds by sailing through these transitive planes, when no direct connection is available. If the boats are capable of planes-hopping, then they normally enter the much-safer Feywild (which is not safe by any means, but at least far less sinister.... usually). However, ones that utilize the Shadowfel do exist, and are often fiendish in nature.
Vehicles that do not have the means to Planes-hop must use a portal in the sphere, which means they are entering a region beyond the borderlands and a sphere of Prime Material, so only the diluted Radiance of the Upper planes (the Phlogistion) exist in this worldless void (since there are no solid objects to either absorb it, block it, or reflect it).
So the Phlogiston, to me, is not precisely the same thing as the Shadowfel (or the Feywild), but rather takes the place of both on the Prime. In place of that on those two planes are vast oceans of shadowy mists or silvery waters (depending on which you are talking about). All three are separate, but over-lapping, just as the three planes are within the spheres, but all are empty, or nearly so, until you enter a region where where a crystal Sphere exists in the Prime. Attempting to travel between the Phlogiston, Shadow Sea, and Ocean of Dreams (my name for the Feywild empty areas) usually meets with disaster - no such travel is permitted by 'the powers that be' (which means it isn't impossible, just epically difficult).
Now to get back to your question: If the Phlogiston IS diluted (with a mix of energies from the Elemental Planes) Radiance, and if Radiance IS the basis for Weave (Arcane) based magic (as I suspect), then all that 'wild energy' that composes the Phlogiston could very well by those 'Primal magical energies' that Mystra (and I suppose Ao) are shielding Toril from. It is canon that The Weave - the sentient artifact that surrounds Realmspace - shields Realmspace from 'dangerous magical energies'.
Every world has a 'Crystal Sphere' - an actual bubble that encloses it, and protects it from the Phlogiston. Ergo, I suspect that the sphere itself is the Weave (on Toril), or at the very least houses the Weave. So every world has a Sphere, and every world is protected from this dangerous energy, so my supposition is that energy IS The Phlogiston and a Weave-like shield must be in place on each (which could be very unique and different from world-to-world, each with its own set of rules). Note that Crystal Sphere of Realmspace is completely covered with Arcane Runes on its inner surface - this could indicate that it is the physical representation of the rules Realmspace must abide by - both the Weave and Ao's decrees.
Unfiltered 'Raw Magic' (the same as phlogiston in my theory) exists throughout the universe, and the Crystal Spheres are the haven for mortal beings who can't handle those primal energies. Now, if you want to take it a step further, and assume that raw primal magical (Arcane) energy is some sort of version of 'The Force' - a multiverse-wide consciousness of its own (GOD?), or even a collective of consciousnesses in some sort of 'Overmind', that works for me as well.
The only real hole in all of this is that folks DO sail through the Phlogiston, so if those energies are so dangerous, how is that possible? the only thing I can think of is that the 'Field' generating around Spelljamming craft that holds the air also keeps out the dangerous energies, almost like a mini-sphere (and come to think of it, both are spherical...).
And to continue this further, I think both Mythallars and Mythals are of a similar nature - spheres of force that are used to filter-out certain things, allow for others, and alter to some degree the physics of the contained terrain (godly Domains would also fall into this category). And since I think all planes/demi-planes/spheres are sentient, then it still makes sense that I consider the Godly Domain the 'body of the god' itself, because every Sphere should have this type of consciousness (Realmspace's sentience is Ao).
Its all relative- Spheres within spheres, within spheres.... planes within planes within planes... gods being part of gods who are part of other gods. Of course there should be some 'greater intelligence' running the whole she-bang, even if it is the 'Cosmic Council of Arcane Gods', or some-such.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Dec 2011 17:09:51 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2011 : 00:24:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The presence of the Flow, currents between worlds, suggests that conditions in the phlogiston are not uniform. Density and consistency of the phlog must vary throughout the "void" between worlds/universes (crystal spheres) it occupies; furthermore, it must have some sort of "inertia" which responds to cosmic forces or influences, moving around much like water and weather.
I would suggest that the flows, areas where phlogiston is thicker, more luminescent and has momentum, represent areas where the potential energy of the shadow void is greater. This is maybe akin to the concept of zero-point energy, or vacuum energy.
Assuming that the phlogiston is a gas of etheric virtual particles, quanta of raw potential manifesting itself from the vacuum and then annihilating themselves as that potential is exhausted. The pressure that the flows exert on spelljammer vehicles may be similar to the Casimir effect on a larger scale.
Where the crystal spheres contain volumes of space within which the potential energy is high enough to support a robust ethereal plane and sufficient to allow a material plane to come into existence, outside the boundaries of crystal spheres, the potential energy drops off to levels that are insufficient to allow ether to form. Where the potential energy is zero, you have a black, empty void. Where the potential energy is greater than zero but insufficient to allow a crystal sphere to form, you get the luminescent phlogiston gas. The density and luminescence of the phlogiston may be a direct measurement of the potential energy of that area of the shadow void.
It stands to reason that phlogiston may be thickest nearest the crystal spheres and drop off the farther you get away from them. To the extent that crystal spheres tend to clump together in groups, you would expect crystal spheres to be nestled within these flows, which would make things convenient for spelljammer ships to travel between spheres.
I imagine that if a spelljammer ship travels too far beyond the flows, it would be similar to a ship in a becalmed sea, with no wind. There would be no Casmir pressure to push it along.
I wonder what forces affect crystal spheres on a macroscopic level? Do they radiate some sort of etheric field? Waves of potential and probability? Do they have a kind of gravity? Do they orbit each other in some kind of complex gravitational dance? I tend to think that crystal spheres do obey a kind of physics (or metaphysics) akin to the way that stars in our galaxy move together in arms around a common core.
To the extent that the phlogiston is a measure of potential energy, it may also be a measure of the potential to achieve magical effects. I speculate that phlogiston is already an area of low magic potential, and where the phlogiston dims, the potential for magic dwindles, even down to nearly nothing in those parts between the flows were the void is black and no phlogiston glows.
Just as spelljammer ships carry an atmosphere with them, they may also carry a limited field of potential energy around them, and so magic may work just fine on board a spelljammer ship. But this "field" may decrease rapidly once you get beyond the ship, perhaps in something like the inverse square rule for gravity. I imagine that the ability to work magic in the shadow void may be severely impeded once you get out past the envelope of atmosphere that surrounds a spelljammer ship. Just how much magic is impeded may be a function of the size of the ship, the luminescence (or dimness) of the surrounding phlogiston, and one's distance from the ship. |
Edited by - Gray Richardson on 25 Dec 2011 00:31:28 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2011 : 01:38:05
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Magical forces can affect a crystal sphere, certainly the handful of spells which can specifically open portals and such.
Gray, my understanding of physics doesn't extend deeply into Quantum field theory and Casimir effects, your analogy might be perfect or might be entirely inappropriate, I'm really not qualified to comment.
I think it might be better to simplify ... I reacquainted myself with the classical definitions of phlogiston (surprisingly not described in any detail beyond "being invalid, proven wrong" in my physics, chemistry, or history-of-science reference books). Combustible matter is said to be "phlogisticated", saturated with some quantity of phlog which cannot be measured or detected by any means other than combustion. "Dephlogisticated" matter has had all the phlog burned away, it converts to a purified form known as "calx" which is impervious to flame. It is implied that burning substances liberate phlog, which I assume drags the flames behind it as it floats upward towards the heavens. That's not a lot to work with.
Another question about phlog "inertia" ... how exactly does a spelljammer actually move a ship through the phlog? It's a propulsive force capable of moving many tons very fast, it's logical to assume it displaces and transfers momentum (energy) to the phlog it moves through. But how? It seems clear that Newtonian physics don't really apply to spelljammers, they don't seem to expend any fuel mass, the writings sometimes suggest the spelljammer "pushes against" something (phlog?) to accelerate. Again, it seems like vague stuff, kinda difficult to work through. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Dec 2011 01:38:52 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2011 : 18:45:04
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It's magic.  |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2510 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 10:14:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
It is also my understanding that it was supposed to be extremely combustible - ergo a potential energy source
It's not exactly combustible - it won't burn on its own until the atmosphere is gone, nor will it support burning, for that matter. Rather than reacting itself, phlog makes the fire so explosively unstable it's snuffed by the ensuing blast and doesn't spread. And changes some other processes (breathing).
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My own theory is that material planes exist only within the boundaries of crystal spheres. A material plane extends to the shell of the crystal sphere, but no further. Crystal spheres are suspended in a volume of space, but what is the nature of that space?
Sort of. In that while Prime touches both Astral and Ethereal, the Flow touches neither and Prime-Flow barrier works like a planar boundary for almost any purpose. Except magic item powers don't diminish, and divine contact instead of diminishing/enhancing by one step varies from "normal" to "completely blocked".
So yeah, the Flow counts as another plane. Oh, wait, there was also litmus test! Jas had her wings changed in the Flow. 
As to its nature... the simplest solution is that phlogiston is the medium as inherent for the Flow as protomatter fog for Ethereal. Why not?
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I reacquainted myself with the classical definitions of phlogiston (surprisingly not described in any detail beyond "being invalid, proven wrong" in my physics
Mainly because definitions were rather... floaty (BTW, said proof was based mainly on this floatiness). Even SJ version has more clarity. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 12:40:48
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| Phlogiston theory did receive some rigorous treatments by alchemists and natural philosophers. Not too rigorous, as the emergence of empirical science quickly disproved phlogiston as an imaginary concept that was incompatible with the fundamental concepts of chemistry. Mind ye, alchemists throughout history tended to focus on skills of apothecary, fixing mercury, and being snake-oil charlatans; while natural philosophers could barely agree on anything unless they received full credit and patents on the discovery. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 14:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Sort of. In that while Prime touches both Astral and Ethereal, the Flow touches neither and Prime-Flow barrier works like a planar boundary for almost any purpose. Except magic item powers don't diminish, and divine contact instead of diminishing/enhancing by one step varies from "normal" to "completely blocked".
So yeah, the Flow counts as another plane. Oh, wait, there was also litmus test! Jas had her wings changed in the Flow.
Personally, I see the Flow as being some sort of non-plane -- a place between planes, if you will. I see it that way because of the way planar travel/contact/access is negated.
A bag of holding doesn't stop working if you hop one plane over, but it does become inaccessible in the Flow. And ditto for divine contact and planar travel -- those aren't entirely cut off by planar travel, just diminished.
But if the Flow was some sort of space between planes, then the lack of planar access makes sense.
As for Jasmine's wings changing, it is perhaps not as much being in another plane that causes the change -- perhaps it is simply crossing a planar boundary that causes the change. So crossing out of the Prime and into this place between would cause it, and then crossing back from the place between to the Prime would also cause it. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 15:04:40
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Every place is a plane of some sort. The nature of the Flow-place prevents most planar transit, the "portals" to other planes reside within the prime zones delineated by crystal spheres. I think it's just one of those unique weird "other places" like the Infinite Staircase; it has its own rules and physical laws and entry and exit points, it probably remains largely removed and unknown to planar natives, spelljamming would be little more than an unbelievable bard's tale in a place like Sigil.
The organic warships of the elven armada are capable of planeshifting. Gith pirates can shift their vessels into and through the astral, Githyanki can do the same and also retain their native ability to planeshift themselves - they can use this ability on either side of a crystal sphere. Captains of the legendary Spelljammer, as well as those who pilot the lesser "young" Spelljammers may also have this ability. Some of the stellar dragons can also planeshift through the Flow. I believe there are one or two kits which can allow PCs to invoke this ability, as well as some prow-mounted figurehead artifact which might do the same. The extraplanar Mists of Ravenloft have been known to envelope entire ships which were passing through the Flow. Beholders and illithids might also have access to dimensional escapes or manipulations while shipboard.
I don't know who Jasmine is/was or anything about his/her wings. But if Jasmine has some sort of celestial/fiend/etc origins or affinity to the outer planes and the powers which reside there, then his/her wings might change form as a manifestation of some divine influence on the inner side of the crystal spheres. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Dec 2011 15:12:05 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 15:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Personally, I see the Flow as being some sort of non-plane -- a place between planes, if you will. I see it that way because of the way planar travel/contact/access is negated.
I see largely as it was defined long ago in the Adventures in Space boxed set:- an extraplanar ocean composed of a gaslike medium which rushes in to fill the voids between crystal spheres.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2510 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 16:11:54
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It's hard to say what the phlog is, but it's apparently superfluid and highly pervasive.
Also, another link to the Flow are wizshades. Though they probably use portals. After all, there are always some open portals... the only way to check would be to batten down the whole Realmspace with Proctiv's Seal Crystal Sphere at the right time and see what it did to a known wizshade - and after Karsus' Avatar even this won't work.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
spelljamming would be little more than an unbelievable bard's tale in a place like Sigil.
There was one guy who purchased and later sold "a squid" in Sigil...  After all, Sigil's portals can lead anywhere at Prime, so no reason why "open into the void" part of the tor can't be linked to cracks in some dusty asteroids.
quote:
The organic warships of the elven armada are capable of planeshifting.
IIRC, it was only in Gith abilities?
quote:
Gith pirates can shift their vessels into and through the astral, Githyanki can do the same and also retain their native ability to planeshift themselves - they can use this ability on either side of a crystal sphere.
"This special maneuver works only in wildspace, not in the phlogiston"(c)
quote:
I believe there are one or two kits which can allow PCs to invoke this ability, as well as some prow-mounted figurehead artifact which might do the same.
Where it's from? I didn't see that yet.
quote:
The extraplanar Mists of Ravenloft have been known to envelope entire ships which were passing through the Flow.
A demiplane? Hmmm... Here's another exotic point: there were hints at connections between Outer and Inner planes that don't stop at Prime as usual. Abnormal conduits presumed (but not proven) to be stuck right into vertices. Mazes supposed to be demiplanes, but launched by Lady of Pain from Outlands. So either the Flow is a complete dead-end, or it may be somehow related to this.
quote:
I don't know who Jasmine is/was
FR comics, "Finder's Bane", "Tymora's Luck". A girl from Toril, born on Krynn, "won" a gamble for wish with Tymora's avatar, so now she's "free like yonder bird!" - literally, that is. Her wings change whenever she planewalks, even on Border Ethereal; in Abyss she was mistaken for Alu even by Alu... Heh... I guess that also says something. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 16:50:53
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First, as I pointed out in my last post concerning crossing into other transitive planes from the Phlogiston (and I consider both the Feywild and Shadowfel types of transitive planes), it shouldn't be possible, but in an infinite, magical universe, it is possible, but epically difficult (in other words, would involve powerful artifacts, divine beings, a specialized ritual, etc, etc... all of that).
So yeah, you can't destroy a crystal sphere... but it can still be done.
The phlogiston appears to be attracted to something, as are the ships - I would assume there is gravity involved (since we know from RW physics energy and even light are 'pulled-in' by gravity-wells). I would also further hazard to guess that this phenomena is somehow related to Ley-lines (but on a more cosmic scale). It has to do with 'bands of magnetic force', which is related to the movement of the heavenly bodies - both rotational and in regards to each-other - and gravity.
The Spelljamming Helms (or other, even stranger means) 'lock on' to this energy - be it Gravitic/Magnetic or whatever - and pull themselves along the 'flow' of the energy toward singularities (in the Phlogiston, this would be Crystal Spheres) - an effect similar to 'solar sails' in popular Scyfi.
The Phlogiston, in my theory, is Radiance combined with the energies from the Elemental Planes, which in my model are all part of the Material Plane. All of these are attracted to the spheres through that 'force' noted above, and the spheres are designed to filter this energy so it is not as dangerous to mortals. Why the portals in the sphere-material exist at all is an anomaly - perhaps they are some sort of 'maintenance conduit', from when the universe was first built.
I think the Modrons have the answers to that, but once again, fodder for another thread. Note that the 'parade' around the inside of Realmspace's Crystal Sphere mimics The Great Modron March.
In my model, prime physical matter only exists (naturally) within the crystal spheres, just as 'solid ground' (Faerie in the Feywild, Domains of Dread in the Shadowfel, etc) exists like islands within the two transitive planes. Outside of all three 'solid' parts lies nothing (well... mostly nothing), but it is represented differently in all three (Phlogiston, Sea of Dread, Ocean of Dreams), but all three of those have similar properties (in regards to getting lost, miring down in 'the calms', 'misty/foggy' regions with very poor visibility, etc, etc). Remember, just as the Shadowefel and Feywild are reflections of the Material world, so too are the 'misty seas' that separate the solid bits.
The big difference is how I view the reflected planes - both are far smaller then the prime (which is poorly represented in that pic I linked above) - that's why I consider them transitive planes. Only the settled areas are close to their RW counterparts - the spaces between - the wilderness and waterways - are greatly shrunken, on a sliding-scale where the further one gets from an 'anchor point' (settled region in the Material world), the greater the compression of distance. This is why you can cover millions of miles in just a few hours when in areas 'beyond the material' (or hundreds of miles quickly, when within the confines of sphere - note the method of travel used in the Moonshae novels - distance is compressed in Faerie). I know thats outside the purview of the thread-topic, but I wasn't sure if I made that part clear in my former post.
If we take what I said in another thread - that all heavenly bodies (except, for perhaps 'dead worlds') have some sort of sentience, then it stands to reason that the spheres themselves have an even 'greater consciousness' (like Ao and Io), and yet-again the entire 'network of worlds' that makes up the Phlogiston (and greater multiverse) could be a giant brain-like construct - the Phlogiston could be like the synapses firing between cells (where, in this theory, the Crystal sphere are the cells in Gods mind... or whoever - thats for you to decide).
Which, at the end of the day, is sort of chilling - we are but 'dreams in the mind of a sleeping god'. Lets just hope he doesn't have to get up and go to work soon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Dec 2011 17:16:19 |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 20:02:22
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Still chewing over the discussion so far but what is the consensus on the following.
I'd like to double check my understanding on the relationship between "Space", Phlog, & Planes and make sure I'm using the right terminology.
As I understand it, the crystal spheres are either in or contain the prime materiel planes? Which is the group thought?
They are surrounded by the Phlogiston which is described as a multi-hued gas-like substance. It has all kinds of opposed properties leading us to believe it's a kind of 'cloud of possibility' that can't exist once possibilities are defined (meaning inside a crystal sphere).
The Astral & Etheral planes do not touch each other but do touch the Phlogiston? But, it's impossible to plane shift while in the Phlog but is possible when in "space" (wildspace?) while inside a crystal sphere.
Now things get tricky for me depending on the version of the cosmology. I missed the whole shift from 2E to 3E/4E so I'm still getting caught up and learning. Your help is appreciated.
Somewhere below/inside the Materiel Plane(s?) are the elemental and energy planes or elemental chaos depending on the version. (The Inner Planes)
Surrounding the Energy/Elemental planes was the Etheral Plane but something (Spellplague?) happened to reconverge those planes into elemental chaos and cause the shift from the World Tree/Great Wheel models to the World Axis model. Does the Etheral Plane sill exist?
'Outside/Above' the prime materiel planes was the Astral Plane/Sea which contained the alignment-based planes as well as the Fugue and Cynosure, etc?
Where did Shadowfell and Feywild come from?
What happened to the Aberrant Planes?
Good Hunting! |
Edited by - Wolfhound75 on 28 Dec 2011 20:06:47 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 01:15:29
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Q: what is the consensus on the following.
A: not sure there is much of a consensus, just a lot of theories.
Q: As I understand it, the crystal spheres are either in or contain the prime materiel planes? Which is the group thought?
A: Unfortunately, the sourcebooks have been ambiguous. It has been stated both ways. You can find reference to crystal spheres as described as individual material planes (or containing them). You can also find references to all crystal spheres inhabiting a single prime material plane. My own preference is to treat individual crystal spheres as separate material planes, but others may reasonably disagree.
Q: The Astral & Etheral planes do not touch each other but do touch the Phlogiston?
A: Actually, I am not sure that this is correct. I cannot say for sure. Astral and Ethereal planes attach to material planes and can be accessed from within crystal spheres. In my opinion, neither ethereal planes nor astral planes should extend beyond the shells of crystal spheres. I would rule (in my game) that you cannot access either from outside a sphere. With a major exception being that a spelljammer ship may take a pocket of ethereal with it when it travels outside a sphere. I would rule that you can slip into an ethereal version of your spelljammer ship up to a certain limited radius of the ship itself. However, someone may be able to find contradictory lore addressing the matter, I cannot claim comprehensive knowledge on this point.
Q: Surrounding the Energy/Elemental planes was the Etheral Plane but something (Spellplague?) happened to reconverge those planes into elemental chaos and cause the shift from the World Tree/Great Wheel models to the World Axis model. Does the Etheral Plane sill exist?
A: The Elemental planes used to float in the Ethereal Plane. I would suggest that in the beginning of Realmspace, they probably formed as an Elemental Chaos and then distilled into separate, distinct, homogenous layers.
I see the Ethereal Plane as the primordial soup of possibility out of which all matter formed. Ao created a crystal sphere that contained only a grey featureless mist. This was an Ethereal Plane. From that, drops of matter distilled and began to accrete together to form clumps. It was all mixed up as an Elemental Chaos, but then, over time, through the principal of like attracts like, and other metaphysical rules, the Chaos distilled and reified into distinct, separate elements. And the Material Plane later formed drawing from the base elements.
After the Spellplage, the Elemental Planes were all mixed back up together with the Ethereal as if they were put through a blender. My solution to where the Ethereal went is that it is all still there just mixed up in the Elemental Chaos. People are probably not even aware the Ethereal is still there--because it no longer functions effectively as a transitive plane, seeing as it is all filled up with elements.
Q: Where did Shadowfell and Feywild come from?
A: The Shadowfell is just the Shadow Plane. It has actually been around since the first Manual of the Planes, although originally it may have been called a demi-plane, it's role may have grown and been developed since 1e, but it has always been around. The Feywild is just Faerie. Faerie has been mentioned in other editions. In the 3e Manual of the Planes it has a section, along with another plane called the Spirit Realm. Both those planes seem to have been merged together in 4e. Ed Greenwood has mentioned the plane of Faerie in some of his posts on this site.
There was some lore to suggest that the Feywild was hard to access from Faerūn for the past few centuries or millennia. This may have had something to do with the Sundering or the Imaskari God Barrier. But the Spellplague seems to have broken down the barriers and allowed the Feywild to reconnect with Faerūn after a long period of isolation.
In the 3e Realms cosmology it mentioned that Kara-Tur's Astral plane looked like the Spirit World from the 3e Manual of the Planes. I would submit that this was not the Astral at all, but rather that Kara-Tur may have had direct access to the Astral blocked off--possibly due to a side effect of the Imaskari God Barrier, and so in order to access godly realms in the Astral in Kara-Tur, you had to detour through the Feywild and access the realms of the gods through portals connecting the Feywild to their Astral domains. Just a theory.
Q: What happened to the Aberrant Planes?
A: Do you mean the Far Realms? If so, they are still around, they are planes or dimensions that lie outside the multiverse proper. They aren't part of the multiverse, but can be accessed by spells or techniques that allow one to part the veil between realities and go beyond the bounds of what is known. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 01:24:22
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If you just need to solidify your definitions and terminology then some time inquiring within Wikipedia and browsing Planewalker would serve you well.
The most comprehensive and accurate sources would be classic 2E Spelljammer and Planescape lore. Spelljammer was basically an abandoned dead-end product line, which at least guarantees the definitions within it remained largely unchanged. Planescape was overwhelmed by several editions of evolved D&D cosmology which assert new lore that blatantly contradicts earlier lore. You've already answered your own question in this regard: the definitions and understandings of the planes you prefer will depend greatly on which canon you prefer.
To further complicate things, many OGL (non-Wizbro) sourcebooks have been published about time, space, and the planes. These are not true D&D canon but a few are considered better; in particular, Pathfinder's planar guides are quite excellent and hugely popular. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Dec 2011 01:27:03 |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 16:28:23
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@Gray
Thanks a ton for helping me distil my thoughts and understand better. Your answers helped me get a better grasp of the changes I'm trying to get caught up on moving from 2E through 3.XE and 4E. I missed a lot of lore shifting over the last decade and I appreciate greatly your taking the time to answer my questions.
@Ayrik
Thanks for the Planewalker site. I didn't even know that resource existed. I will take time to peruse it though from your statements it sounds like it may generate even more questions than it answers.
Good Hunting! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 18:52:51
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The Ethereal is gone canonically, but most of us like to reason-out where it went, or what it really was. I have made the Ethereal the transitive mega-plane that contains the border ethereal (which touches the prime, everywhere),the Ethereal (Feywild), and Deep Ethereal (Shadowfel). Not precisely canon, and it might trample a wee bit on previous edition canon, but its the best I can come up with to marry it to the new lore. It is the 'in-between' region where the primary planes - the Prime, Heavens, and Hells - all meet. This is why I consider them transitive planes - they exist as layers between the 'true planes' (and over time, have become planes in their own right).
Agree with Gray on most of that - where this lore is concerned, there is really no 'right or wrong'.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Q: As I understand it, the crystal spheres are either in or contain the prime materiel planes? Which is the group thought?
A: Unfortunately, the sourcebooks have been ambiguous. It has been stated both ways. You can find reference to crystal spheres as described as individual material planes (or containing them). You can also find references to all crystal spheres inhabiting a single prime material plane. My own preference is to treat individual crystal spheres as separate material planes, but others may reasonably disagree.
I personally lean towrd all Crystal Sphere being within a single Material plane, 'The Prime Material'. I also lump the four 'common' Elemental Planes in there as well, and call all five 'The Material Plane'. I've only done this since the advent of 4e - refer to my own cosmological interpretation - where you see the four elements and the band of Ethereal now (4e) exists the Elemental Chaos (because it has all returned to its primal, mixed state).
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Q: The Astral & Ethereal planes do not touch each other but do touch the Phlogiston?
A: Actually, I am not sure that this is correct. I cannot say for sure. Astral and Ethereal planes attach to material planes and can be accessed from within crystal spheres. In my opinion, neither ethereal planes nor astral planes should extend beyond the shells of crystal spheres. I would rule (in my game) that you cannot access either from outside a sphere. With a major exception being that a spelljammer ship may take a pocket of ethereal with it when it travels outside a sphere. I would rule that you can slip into an ethereal version of your spelljammer ship up to a certain limited radius of the ship itself. However, someone may be able to find contradictory lore addressing the matter, I cannot claim comprehensive knowledge on this point.
From what little I recall (and I get the feeling Gray is as Hazy on Spelljamming as I), you cannot contact ANY other plane from the Phlogiston.
Although we have no real reasons why (just theories), I like to think that it has to do with mortal belief, which sets the structure of the cosmology. The Crystal Spheres not only block dangerous energies from getting in, but they also keep energy from getting out, and in D&D, Faith IS a form of energy (which deities need). Outside of the Spheres, there is no Faith-energy, and the cosmos exists only its its primal, unstructured state. Ergo, to contact other planes, you must go through a transitive plane, whether physically, psionically, spiritually, or through some spell, and the transitive planes only directly touch the Crystal Spheres (through the Border Ethereal, in my theory).
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Q: Surrounding the Energy/Elemental planes was the Etheral Plane but something (Spellplague?) happened to reconverge those planes into elemental chaos and cause the shift from the World Tree/Great Wheel models to the World Axis model. Does the Etheral Plane sill exist?
A: The Elemental planes used to float in the Ethereal Plane. I would suggest that in the beginning of Realmspace, they probably formed as an Elemental Chaos and then distilled into separate, distinct, homogenous layers.
I've explained my version above, but basically we agree. The only place (I think) Gray and I diverge on this point is that I consider ALL physical matter part of the greater material Plane, which encompasses the Prime, and the four major (mystical) elements. I consider the Prime the '5th element', BTW - alloy (a combination of all four, which begets life), which is also called 'Wood', or sometimes 'Metal'.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I see the Ethereal Plane as the primordial soup of possibility out of which all matter formed. Ao created a crystal sphere that contained only a grey featureless mist. This was an Ethereal Plane. From that, drops of matter distilled and began to accrete together to form clumps. It was all mixed up as an Elemental Chaos, but then, over time, through the principal of like attracts like, and other metaphysical rules, the Chaos distilled and reified into distinct, separate elements. And the Material Plane later formed drawing from the base elements.
After the Spellplage, the Elemental Planes were all mixed back up together with the Ethereal as if they were put through a blender. My solution to where the Ethereal went is that it is all still there just mixed up in the Elemental Chaos. People are probably not even aware the Ethereal is still there--because it no longer functions effectively as a transitive plane, seeing as it is all filled up with elements.
Agreed. The way I have it structured in my diagram no longer exists - the elements and probably the Phlogiston itself have all merged back into the soup that is the Elemental Chaos. The only thing still protecting the Prime Worlds from becoming part of that soup are the spheres themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Q: Where did Shadowfell and Feywild come from?
A: The Shadowfell is just the Shadow Plane. It has actually been around since the first Manual of the Planes, although originally it may have been called a demi-plane, it's role may have grown and been developed since 1e, but it has always been around. The Feywild is just Faerie. Faerie has been mentioned in other editions. In the 3e Manual of the Planes it has a section, along with another plane called the Spirit Realm. Both those planes seem to have been merged together in 4e. Ed Greenwood has mentioned the plane of Faerie in some of his posts on this site.
There was some lore to suggest that the Feywild was hard to access from Faerūn for the past few centuries or millennia. This may have had something to do with the Sundering or the Imaskari God Barrier. But the Spellplague seems to have broken down the barriers and allowed the Feywild to reconnect with Faerūn after a long period of isolation.
In the 3e Realms cosmology it mentioned that Kara-Tur's Astral plane looked like the Spirit World from the 3e Manual of the Planes. I would submit that this was not the Astral at all, but rather that Kara-Tur may have had direct access to the Astral blocked off--possibly due to a side effect of the Imaskari God Barrier, and so in order to access godly realms in the Astral in Kara-Tur, you had to detour through the Feywild and access the realms of the gods through portals connecting the Feywild to their Astral domains. Just a theory.
Agree with most of this.
The only point of contention I have is that Faerie is just a location - probably several locations - within the Feywild, which used to be known as the Positive/Astral Planes* (once again, in my own theory). On many prime Worlds, they refer to their own, local portion of the Feywild as 'Faerie', which was probably the name of the Fey homeland originally, when all the worlds were one. If I ever do my map of the Feywild (and maybe even the Shadowfel), there will be island-like land masses that correspond to the Crystal Spheres. The space between these 'worlds' is various mediums, depending upon the plane, and also how far one travels from an 'anchor point' - something solid, like a Crystal sphere, or an ethereal island (Feywild or Shadowfel). Tintageer and the Domains of Dread are examples of 2 such islands, and Evermeet might be considered one in 4e (with 'echoes' in both the Prime and Shadowfel). The Shadowfel and Feywild include these stable masses, as well as the 'seas' between. Therefor, 'Faerie' can be used interchangeably with 'Feywild' in most cases, since most Primes are unaware of the subtle difference. Faerie and Ravenloft have been called 'demi-planes' in the past, but the truth is, they were just 'bubbles' within the Ethereal Plane, so the term 'demi-plane' actually means the same thing as 'Crystal Sphere', for all intents and purpose. Spheres of stable matter within seas of instability (and probably created by Greater Primordials, for whatever reason).
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Q: What happened to the Aberrant Planes?
A: Do you mean the Far Realms? If so, they are still around, they are planes or dimensions that lie outside the multiverse proper. They aren't part of the multiverse, but can be accessed by spells or techniques that allow one to part the veil between realities and go beyond the bounds of what is known.
Quite.
In my diagram (which needs to be tweaked - I've redefined a few things), everything outside of what you see - that spike through the Torus' - is outside of the Universe (as we know it). That is what is left of the Primordial Soup - the Ginnungagap - that existed before a Sentience emerged and brought order to the cosmos ("Let there be Light!"). At the same moment, a counter-sentience was formed (Cthon), which wishes to restore the universe to its original state (of Chaos). This is where the aberrations hail from - they are not part of this universe; they are much older then that. Not all Aberrations are chaotic, nor follow Cthon - that is the very nature of TRUE primordial chaos.
The one big difference between my own creation and cosmology and the Norse is that Niflheim - the utter darkness - exists between the Universe and the Ginnungagap, as a type of barrier between them, in much the same way as the crystal spheres are. Although represented as a thin layer, it is actually infinite, because the ever-expanding nature of the universe is constantly increasing the size of this plane (it is like the skin on an orange - an orange that is constantly growing). This is the abode of Erebus, the Primordial darkness (THE Dark God). Who hates both order and chaos, but must maintain the balance in order to maintain his realm. In my cosmology, he is also the father of Shar, who's own evil is just a mere shadow of her sire's (pun intended).
Like I said, a lot of conjecture and mostly homebrew, thanks to the inconsistent lore over the years (which really isn't inconsistent, when one considers mortal belief defines the heavens).
*Cosmology stuff
I often use the term 'depth' in regards to traveling in the ethereal, even though we are really talking about movement in a 4th dimension. Within the two transitive planes - the Feywild and Shadowfel (and others also exist, like Temporal Prime) - you can go 'shallower' and 'deeper' within them. This is where I think the other lost/missing/moved planes come-in. Where Faerie is on the shallow end of the Feywild (mirroring the Prime most closely), above that would be the astral (Faerie's sky, sort of), and above/beyond that would be the old positive plane (just before it touches the Heavens). In fact, the positive energy plane may just be the border-area between the astral and The Heavens. The same can be said for Ravenloft, the Plane of Shadows, and the negative energy Plane - all the same mega-plane, but different 'depths' within the plane (in much the same way that we have different layers within the sea, as described in the Sea of Fallen stars product; each 'depth' is its own environ). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2011 04:02:04 |
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Phlogiston - Excerpt Discussion from 'Sorcery'
