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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 22:56:55
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@MT -
Curious and very insightful. What I found curious about it was given the discussion, my own thinking, a quick perusal of the Planewalker website Ayrik mentioned and Gray's responses. I very nearly drew out exactly what you just described. I'm out of time at work but can describe it later. I will also take some time to refine it as I really like your ideas about the Far Realm and the law/chaos/neutrality balance you suggested.
Thanks!
Good Hunting! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 01:52:20
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My guess is that the Ethereal plane was removed because it's similar and dissimilar enough to the Astral to create some confusion. Most people treat it as a transitive plane anyhow, and there's little point in having redundant transitive planes. Spelljammer added a third redundant-transitive layer, and it would be harder to align the Spelljammer setting with newer editions without removing a lot of the really weird things which give it a special flavour.
The more recent canon approach is an infinite Astral ocean in which all the other plane-bubble places float and drift around, along with some innovations such as the "boundaries" of the infinite Astral interfacing with the Far Realms and other places.
To be blunt (and hopefully this won't be received poorly) - I think the main reason post-3E D&D discouraged much interest in the planes, and the transitive planes most of all - is simply that the product line maintains a heavy focus on a few "core" settings. WotC seems to disfavour upgrading the mechanisms used to travel between worlds because their focus has been on attempting to unify and simplify D&D into one single world. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Dec 2011 02:11:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 04:57:33
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Actually, the 'one rules to rule them all' motto of 4e was designed with the intention that anything, from anywhere could be used - it was a way of 'disarming' the one-setting mindset of most fans.
Not that people couldn't use whatever they wanted anyway - I know I did - but there were a lot of 'canon nazis' out there; people who would only use what was canon to a particular setting.
Stupid, I know... its just a game. Thats what happens when you start applying rules to 'having fun'.
And isn't there some sort of cosmological cross-over taking place in the novels now? And Asmodeus and other things 'changed the cosmology' across all settings, from what I understand (except, suspiciously, Eberron - but thats a 'Closed Sphere' anyway).
I'm just not seeing it - I think they wanted things to work-out the other way around - to make it easier to cross into other planes, because they can write the SAME Faerie/Feywild and Shadowfel adventures to work for every setting.
As for the Ethereal and Astral - when I was new to D&D, I thought having both was kinda silly (before that, if I thought about it at all, I suppose I considered them the same). However, D&D - if nothing else - has made me think about all these inter-relationships within the universe, and what the real differences were between gods, deities, angelic beings, saints and other ascended mortals, various (transitive) planes, etc, etc.
And I think Gary Gygax did a damn good job. D&D works - thats the bottom line. The 2e Planescape setting proves that what Gary first envisioned had so much potential, and an entire mega-setting was based around his simple imaginings. He did good.
As for the difference - its subtle. The way I see it, the ethereal was a way of traveling 'sideways' amongst the planes - you slipped into it, travel for a bit, and re-entered the material world somewhere else, either far from where you started, or on an entirely different world altogether (like what happens in Michael Moorcock's novels). With the astral, you travel 'up' - it is a plane that exists between you and the gods - a region of pure thought, and the higher you go, the more 'pure' you must be (although, considering the very nature of many polytheistic deities, 'pure' is pretty loosly defined). On the other hand, the Shadowfel - formerly the plane of Shadows and the Negative Plane - is the 'basement' of the cosmos. You travel down through it until you reach hell itself (or hells, in the case of D&D).
The transitive planes are nothing more then a medium - a buffer, if you will - of permeable material that separates the Upper and Lower worlds from Midgard - the Material World. This Illustration demonstrates what I am saying (and even though it looks like thats what I based my own diagram on, I actually only found that recently, long after I made mine). That space between the worlds are what mortals called the transitive planes, but really, all the planes (or dimensions, whatever) are of a similar nature - even the Prime, Heavens, and Hells are separated into 'Spheres/Domains/Bubbles/' etc, which float in some sort of medium. The Ethereal & Astral Seas, the Phlogiston, the branches of Yggdrasil, and the River Styx - all just pools of primal substance with islands of reality floating within them.
The old cosmology - the Great Wheel - wasn't perfect. What it was was the best way to illustrate the 11-dimensional nature of the cosmos, and was meant merely as one interpretation. What is true for one world (sphere) is not necessarily true for any other, and each determines its own relationship to all the rest, through mortal belief. This is why I think the real universe looks more like the inside of a lava-lamp, with an infinite number of conduits (portals and gates) that connect everything to everything else, and those conduits - that is the physical manifestation of mortal belief; mortal belief in all its solidified glory. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2011 05:08:22 |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 07:15:03
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Oh wow cool!
What are the 11 dimensions of the cosmos? |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 08:02:14
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| He may be talking about M-Theory which posits that our universe is composed of 11 dimensions, the three we can see, a time dimension, and 7 additional dimensions that are rolled up like wrapping paper, but so tightly that they have tiny, tiny diameters--on the scale of sub-atomic particles--and so are essentially imperceptible. Or so I am led to believe. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 11:07:18
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11 or 26, or even an infinite subset of chaotically indistinct, shifting, momentary dimensions ... all these values provide "workable" brane parameters within our most accepted supersymmetry theories. 11 is the most widely assumed value because it's the "simplest" to conceptualize and model.
Of course "dimension" itself is a word treated in very different and very precise ways, depending on which technical aspect each discipline primarily needs to manipulate. Time is not considered a dimension in proper 3-space topology, whereas it is considered physically inseparable from spatial dimensions under general relativity (outside of usage in conventional analogy to teach and explain the subject). In D&D, each plane can have unique properties for time (or timelessness) and time often flows at different rates between planar interfaces; there are also one or two planes defined by time itself, in which movement through time and space are intricately related.
In any case, dimensions and planes - in D&D - are not the same thing. Planes are "places"; dimensions are perpendicular axes of motion within each plane, they are (possibly infinite) subsets within each (often infinite) plane. This means that extradimensional and hyperdimensional geometries (extra space, and even extra time) can be folded into the existence of each plane, but crossing dimensional boundaries is not the same thing as crossing planar boundaries.
Old definitions of the Ethereal posit that it overlaps and coexists entirely within and beyond the Prime. I think another reason it was removed was because it serves the same functions as Astral (primarily used as an in-between plane to reach other planes) and it wasn't "interesting" enough to stay around with other overlapping coexistant planes like the Feywild and Shadowfell (and, if you're unlucky, Ravenloft).
This linky might serve as a good introductory overview, regardless of D&D edition preference. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 16:48:38
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Gray is correct.
I don't only try to marry ALL the lore from D&D settings, fantasy literature, mythology and folklore, but also try to incorporate it into RW sciences. I'm the type of person who doesn't believe in curses (like Vampirism or Lycanthropy) - I am the type who falls back on bloodline-specific mutagenic viruses. 
We know of 3 dimensions, and we can imagine at least a 4th, but beyond that, our minds aren't capable of handling (which separates mortals from the divine). Gods can probably 'see' things like time and gravity. And M-theory itself will probably be outdated soon, as we discover more of the secrets of the universe (which only leads to deeper mysteries.. as it should be). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2011 16:50:05 |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 17:01:56
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Sorry Ayrik. I don't read the D&D Wiki. It contains many errors and is a poor source for information. I would not recommend a source which contains many errors to scribes that are new, but that's me.
Since science doesn't work in the Realms, how could one develop... or why would one attempt to develop... a grand unifying theory? I mean, the standard model fails in the Realms... why would one believe that one should generate a field theory which encapsulates a disproven model and additional models?
Oh, Ayrik... could you explain the prediction of magnetic monopoles to me?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 01:05:52
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Ah, even if the wiki content is questionable, the one page I linked to still presents a decent enough overview.
And no, I cannot explain magnetic monopoles in any detail. The theory is too sophisticated and hypothetical and controversial and new to have been taught to me or to have offered itself as useful or interesting idle reading material. I understand the fundamentals of supersymmetry well enough, sort of a random but natural progression from quantum mechanics (computation) I try to keep up with. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 14:07:46
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| One thing to note is where the word actually came from. As little as four hundred years ago, they were postulating that all items that burned contained a substance called "phlogiston" and that this substance was removed via the burning (and thus the reduction in mass). This was disproven when it was discovered that some things (magnesium) actually gain in mass when burned. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 14:10:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I cannot recall the specific source, but it's standard-issue Spelljammer lore. People who fall overboard deplete their "air envelope" in fairly quick order, but somehow the magical phlogiston preserves/petrifies their flesh and places them into a sort of dormant stasis state before they can die. Exposure to normal air/etc somehow magically revives them in a similarly rapid manner; jumping overboard can be a desperate last-hope attempt to avoid death. Individuals can drift through the Flow for months or centuries, many gratefully join the crew when rescued.
Lost gods, ancient, forgotten, cast away, or thought to be dead, also drift dormant through the Phlogiston and the Astral, far away from those parts of the Flow frequented by spelljammers. Some sources name one such monolithic stony titan-god serving as the capital floating city-fortress of the Githyanki, Queen Vlaakith is said to have established a psionic link through which she parasitically draws divine power from this unconscious entity. Some legends suggest that the true Spelljammer may have forgotten it's own origins as a lost god who somehow adapted to live within the phlogiston.
Wonder if any of the Mulhorandi / Untheric gods fell off the ship of the gods while making their way to the realms. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 14:32:51
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| the idea that the Phlogiston between crystal spheres is the source of magic is kind of already mirrored in another system according to some 2E lore. Basically, in it, the Astral (yet another form of traversement between crystal spheres) is noted as being a place so very magical that casting spells there can become addictive. The question becomes what (if any) are the ties between the astral and the phlogiston. Given that I think according to spelljammer conjurations/summonings don't work in the Phlogiston, its say to say that it and the astral plane are not tied to one another (and possibly outside the reach of outsiders from the outer planes). I think it sits better that the astral be the source of magic than the phlogiston. However, perhaps the phlogiston is the source of some other energy? What of the radiance of the "sun"? Where do "meteoric" metals that fall to the world's surface come from? Could they be crystallized phlogiston that forms on the crystal sphere surface and periodically break off? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 14:56:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Phlogiston, in my theory, is Radiance combined with the energies from the Elemental Planes, which in my model are all part of the Material Plane. All of these are attracted to the spheres through that 'force' noted above, and the spheres are designed to filter this energy so it is not as dangerous to mortals. Why the portals in the sphere-material exist at all is an anomaly - perhaps they are some sort of 'maintenance conduit', from when the universe was first built.
I like this concept, that the Phlogiston is related to the separate elemental planes (as opposed to the elemental chaos of 4th edition). While the prime creates its own transitive plane (the ethereal) which can be used to reach elemental planes, perhaps the phlogiston is some kind of "transitive plane" that the elemental planes themselves create connecting to all the other crystal spheres AND all the other elemental planes (it would be interesting to me if each crystal sphere has its own elemental planes as is stated in 3rd edition, but that ultimately all these elemental planes are also linked together). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 15:38:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, the 'one rules to rule them all' motto of 4e was designed with the intention that anything, from anywhere could be used - it was a way of 'disarming' the one-setting mindset of most fans.
Not that people couldn't use whatever they wanted anyway - I know I did - but there were a lot of 'canon nazis' out there; people who would only use what was canon to a particular setting.
Stupid, I know... its just a game. Thats what happens when you start applying rules to 'having fun'.
And isn't there some sort of cosmological cross-over taking place in the novels now? And Asmodeus and other things 'changed the cosmology' across all settings, from what I understand (except, suspiciously, Eberron - but thats a 'Closed Sphere' anyway).
I'm just not seeing it - I think they wanted things to work-out the other way around - to make it easier to cross into other planes, because they can write the SAME Faerie/Feywild and Shadowfel adventures to work for every setting.
As for the Ethereal and Astral - when I was new to D&D, I thought having both was kinda silly (before that, if I thought about it at all, I suppose I considered them the same). However, D&D - if nothing else - has made me think about all these inter-relationships within the universe, and what the real differences were between gods, deities, angelic beings, saints and other ascended mortals, various (transitive) planes, etc, etc.
And I think Gary Gygax did a damn good job. D&D works - thats the bottom line. The 2e Planescape setting proves that what Gary first envisioned had so much potential, and an entire mega-setting was based around his simple imaginings. He did good.
As for the difference - its subtle. The way I see it, the ethereal was a way of traveling 'sideways' amongst the planes - you slipped into it, travel for a bit, and re-entered the material world somewhere else, either far from where you started, or on an entirely different world altogether (like what happens in Michael Moorcock's novels). With the astral, you travel 'up' - it is a plane that exists between you and the gods - a region of pure thought, and the higher you go, the more 'pure' you must be (although, considering the very nature of many polytheistic deities, 'pure' is pretty loosly defined). On the other hand, the Shadowfel - formerly the plane of Shadows and the Negative Plane - is the 'basement' of the cosmos. You travel down through it until you reach hell itself (or hells, in the case of D&D).
The transitive planes are nothing more then a medium - a buffer, if you will - of permeable material that separates the Upper and Lower worlds from Midgard - the Material World. This Illustration demonstrates what I am saying (and even though it looks like thats what I based my own diagram on, I actually only found that recently, long after I made mine). That space between the worlds are what mortals called the transitive planes, but really, all the planes (or dimensions, whatever) are of a similar nature - even the Prime, Heavens, and Hells are separated into 'Spheres/Domains/Bubbles/' etc, which float in some sort of medium. The Ethereal & Astral Seas, the Phlogiston, the branches of Yggdrasil, and the River Styx - all just pools of primal substance with islands of reality floating within them.
The old cosmology - the Great Wheel - wasn't perfect. What it was was the best way to illustrate the 11-dimensional nature of the cosmos, and was meant merely as one interpretation. What is true for one world (sphere) is not necessarily true for any other, and each determines its own relationship to all the rest, through mortal belief. This is why I think the real universe looks more like the inside of a lava-lamp, with an infinite number of conduits (portals and gates) that connect everything to everything else, and those conduits - that is the physical manifestation of mortal belief; mortal belief in all its solidified glory.
Yes, I always liked the many possibilities of all these different planar connections. The one thing I can say that I like that they did with the 4E cosmology was get rid of the idea that all these other planes are infinite. I'd much more prefer that the elemental plane of earth for Toril is not the same elemental plane of earth for Oerth (and thus, each crystal sphere is its own prime, with its own elemental, positive, negative, and taking from 4e a little...). However, perhaps there are portals linking the two... and maybe said portals might be something that most folks don't realize they're passing through as they do it. This allows for there being a Torilian elemental lord of fire and a Oerthian elemental lord of fire... but maybe the famed city of brass is just another separate city and both access it as a shared resource.
This same concept goes for the shadowfell (or shadow plane) and the feywild (or faerie). Each prime generates its own, but each of those actually has links to other shadow and faerie planes from other crystal spheres.
I think of the astral & world tree as a somewhat mirror of the phlogiston, but wholely separate. I see "The flow" as a means to connect the crystal spheres in a physical medium, and thus maybe a manifestation of the elemental planes. I see the astral as a means to connect the crystal spheres via a medium of thought/magic. Perhaps the world tree is a manifestation of the links of the feywild. If this concept that each "type" of plane has its own transitive were true, then there would also be a transitive connecting the shadow planes (maybe this is where Ravenloft comes in?).
So maybe the below could be counted as a somewhat truism?
Elemental planes has transitive of Phlogiston
Prime material planes has transitive of Ethereal
Outer planes has transitive of Astral
Feywild has transitive of World Tree
Shadowfell has transitive of "the mists" used in Ravenloft
Where the celestial stairway falls into this... no clue at present. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 15:47:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Where do "meteoric" metals that fall to the world's surface come from? Could they be crystallized phlogiston that forms on the crystal sphere surface and periodically break off?
Unlikely. If this was the case, they'd break off into the Flow, not into the sphere. And I don't recall any mentions of meteorites in the Flow.
Plus, there's the whole "phlogiston cannot exist inside a crystal sphere" angle, too. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 15:54:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So maybe the below could be counted as a somewhat truism?
Elemental planes has transitive of Phlogiston
This does not work for me, since the phlogiston has no connections to any other planes.
No access to any other plane, even extradimensional spaces, no contact with any deities, and it cannot exist inside of a sphere. To me, the only logical explanation is that the Flow is some sort of place between planes. It's a fantasy version of hyperspace, if you will. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 16:15:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Where do "meteoric" metals that fall to the world's surface come from? Could they be crystallized phlogiston that forms on the crystal sphere surface and periodically break off?
Unlikely. If this was the case, they'd break off into the Flow, not into the sphere. And I don't recall any mentions of meteorites in the Flow.
Plus, there's the whole "phlogiston cannot exist inside a crystal sphere" angle, too.
The idea I had here was based on the idea of a physical reaction between the crystal sphere and the flow, with the idea that the crystal sphere isn't non-permeable (after all, it periodically opens pathways between it and the Phlogiston). I got the idea when reading up that the real world "phlogiston" was attributed to the creation of rust on metals. Its specifically stated that Phlogiston can't exist in the crystal sphere, so whenever these portals open, could it be that some phlogiston comes in and is crystallized into another medium. Then the portal closes and the stuff is now attached to the inside of the crystal sphere. Granted, I'm not looking for this to definitely be true... just an idea to see what might spark from it. Perhaps it doesn't make a meteoric metal, but rather its some kind of crystal with some kind of interesting uses (maybe the gathering of this crystal is what's necessary to make a spelljamming helm? Maybe the crystal has some uses in stasis spells? Maybe its got some function for fire magics? just throwing out some ideas). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 18:27:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Where do "meteoric" metals that fall to the world's surface come from? Could they be crystallized phlogiston that forms on the crystal sphere surface and periodically break off?
Unlikely. If this was the case, they'd break off into the Flow, not into the sphere. And I don't recall any mentions of meteorites in the Flow.
Plus, there's the whole "phlogiston cannot exist inside a crystal sphere" angle, too.
The idea I had here was based on the idea of a physical reaction between the crystal sphere and the flow, with the idea that the crystal sphere isn't non-permeable (after all, it periodically opens pathways between it and the Phlogiston). I got the idea when reading up that the real world "phlogiston" was attributed to the creation of rust on metals. Its specifically stated that Phlogiston can't exist in the crystal sphere, so whenever these portals open, could it be that some phlogiston comes in and is crystallized into another medium. Then the portal closes and the stuff is now attached to the inside of the crystal sphere. Granted, I'm not looking for this to definitely be true... just an idea to see what might spark from it. Perhaps it doesn't make a meteoric metal, but rather its some kind of crystal with some kind of interesting uses (maybe the gathering of this crystal is what's necessary to make a spelljamming helm? Maybe the crystal has some uses in stasis spells? Maybe its got some function for fire magics? just throwing out some ideas).
Well, if phlogiston crystallized when coming into a sphere, then attempts to bottle it and bring it in would result in bottles of crystalline stuff, not empty bottles. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 20:04:43
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I would imagine that 'space debri' comes from the Elemental Planes, rather then from outside of the sphere. Portals may occasionally open randomly, or beings may create such gates on purpose, but matter is then transferred into the prime from them. This explanation actually works better in regards to the Elemental (4e) Maelstrom, then the older 'independent elements' model. meteors and comets are made of fire, ice, minerals, etc - they make perfect examples of elemental glop appearing within a crystal sphere. They could also be elemental beings themselves, that have 'broken free' from the Primal Chaos and wish to do untold damage in a kamikaze-like fashion.
And some are just leftover flotsam from the War of Light & Darkness.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yes, I always liked the many possibilities of all these different planar connections. The one thing I can say that I like that they did with the 4E cosmology was get rid of the idea that all these other planes are infinite.
They are infinite - they have infinite potential. 
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd much more prefer that the elemental plane of earth for Toril is not the same elemental plane of earth for Oerth (and thus, each crystal sphere is its own prime, with its own elemental, positive, negative, and taking from 4e a little...). However, perhaps there are portals linking the two... and maybe said portals might be something that most folks don't realize they're passing through as they do it. This allows for there being a Torilian elemental lord of fire and a Oerthian elemental lord of fire... but maybe the famed city of brass is just another separate city and both access it as a shared resource.
We are talking about planes that are as large as The Prime material, which means they are planes as vast as the universe itself. Of course they are the same planes from one sphere to another, but... the distances between them would be as vast as they are in the material universe - trillions upon trillions of miles. There is almost no need to worry about cross-contamination, because very rarely will mortals ever be able to travel from one world to another through these planes.
On the other hand, Transitive Planes compress distance, and millions of miles can be traverse in hours (so long as you are not in the gravity-well of a singularity... or Sphere... or Domain... etc). Wooly's comparison to hyperspace was excellent (wish I had thought f it ) - if you have ever played in a Scify game, you know you have to be a certain distance from a singularity before you can even enter hyperspace/Warp. thius works beautifully when translated into fantasy and arcane methods of traveling. Just as we have Hyper/Warp space, subspace, ultraspace, etc... in Scify, we have Phlogiston, Ethereal, Astral, etc... all means of 'folding' space and compressing distances.
Material Planes - the Prime and four elemetns - do not have this feature.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This same concept goes for the shadowfell (or shadow plane) and the feywild (or faerie). Each prime generates its own, but each of those actually has links to other shadow and faerie planes from other crystal spheres.
This does not work, simply because it goes against previous lore. According to 3e canon, the only way to travel to other worlds (since Planescape and SJ were not part of 3e) was to use the Sadowfel. Faerie, previously, was a demiplane, not unlike Ravenloft (this is why I say faerie exists within the Feywild, just as the DoD exist within the Shadowfel), and like Ravenloft, was able to manifest parts of itself (like the Mists of RL) within other realms, and even take from them (folklore is rife with fey-kidnappings). This means that faerie was able to 'visit' other worlds, just as RL was able to. Also, in 4e, they want the Shadowfel and Feywild to be connected to everything, so that adventures set there are not setting-specific. Ergo, the Tower on the Shadowfell you visit from FR is the same one PCs from Oerth (GH) are visiting.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I think of the astral & world tree as a somewhat mirror of the phlogiston, but wholly separate. I see "The flow" as a means to connect the crystal spheres in a physical medium, and thus maybe a manifestation of the elemental planes. I see the astral as a means to connect the crystal spheres via a medium of thought/magic. Perhaps the world tree is a manifestation of the links of the feywild. If this concept that each "type" of plane has its own transitive were true, then there would also be a transitive connecting the shadow planes (maybe this is where Ravenloft comes in?).
I think the World tree is the original fey model of the multiverse, and since the Feywild has slowly been coming back into conjunction with FR, the 'World tree' cosmology has come back into vogue, taking precedence over the old-school Great Wheel, which was brought over from Oerth (note the spell names - FR has gotten much of its Arcane lore from GH over the years - its nothing new).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So maybe the below could be counted as a somewhat truism?
Elemental planes has transitive of Phlogiston
Prime material planes has transitive of Ethereal
Outer planes has transitive of Astral
Feywild has transitive of World Tree
Shadowfell has transitive of "the mists" used in Ravenloft
Where the celestial stairway falls into this... no clue at present.
The Celestial stairway would be the medium for the Heavens, just as Oceanus is for the other upper planes and the River Styx is the medium for the Hells. Think of the celestial stairway as the inside of a magnificent mansion within the Seven Heavens (which may include Cynosure), and connects them (via stairs) to other upper planes and The Prime. Basically, the stairwells are what mortal minds interpret the conduits to be. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jan 2012 23:45:42 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 00:54:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would imagine that 'space debri' comes from the Elemental Planes, rather then from outside of the sphere. Portals may occasionally open randomly, or beings may create such gates on purpose, but matter is then transferred into the prime from them.
It's a common planar phenomenon, so I would assume it also occurs inside the extent of crystal spheres as well. Essentially in elementally-inclined locations that, perhaps, are fed by energy/life from a particular elemental plane. A vast body of water that has a portal to the Elemental Plane of Water at it's heart would, I imagine, allow for a fair degree of planar flotsam passing from one sphere to another. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 01:08:21
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I recall there were some rules about meteoric substances. Obviously written with the intent of preventing players from tossing lumps of metal overboard a Spelljammer then reclaiming magically potent "meteoric alloy" to forge their gear. Sadly, I cannot really recall most of the specific details or the source, although I suspect is was somewhere in the Spelljammer lore.
I would suggest that a more likely source of meteoric debris would be destroyed spelljammers, not self-regenerating nearly impervious crystal sphere stuff. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 01:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I would suggest that a more likely source of meteoric debris would be destroyed spelljammers, not self-regenerating nearly impervious crystal sphere stuff.
And I'd imagine this would be entirely more prominent in areas touched by the Unhuman Wars. Debris from destroyed spelljammers in orbit or just outside the local gravitation fields of planets would likely "clutter" crystal spheres that played host to major conflicts in the war.
Aside from occasionally causing navigational hazards for journeying spelljammers, inertia from the original destruction may eventually bring these pieces into the gravitational well of a planet and cause "meteoric spelljammer debris." |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 01:34:14
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Is there any canon describing how psionics are affected within Phlogiston? Aside from those psionic powers which involve flame, of course. Or is it left to the DM to basically treat the psionic powers as approximate spell equivalents?
Specifically, I'm curious about how well the inertial barrier, dream travel, and time-space anchor powers would operate. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 02:49:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Is there any canon describing how psionics are affected within Phlogiston? Aside from those psionic powers which involve flame, of course. Or is it left to the DM to basically treat the psionic powers as approximate spell equivalents?
Specifically, I'm curious about how well the inertial barrier, dream travel, and time-space anchor powers would operate.
Spelljamming and psionics have never had much interplay, so it's hard for us to determine how such mindcraft elements would be affected.
I do recall some brief 3e stuff [in either the Expanded Psionic Handbook or Lords of Madness] which hinted about some intriguing psionic effects with respect to the illithids in the Phlogiston. Though, it was never anything particularly elaborate... which was in-keeping with the whole 3e philosophy of not focusing too much on non-core aspects of the D&D game, such as spelljamming for example. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 01 Jan 2012 02:51:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 04:23:45
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I personally would figure that psionics in the Flow would function under the same restrictions as magic in the Flow: nothing that touches other planes, and fire go BOOM!
I always wanted to see a psionic-based spelljamming helm. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 06:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally would figure that psionics in the Flow would function under the same restrictions as magic in the Flow: nothing that touches other planes, and fire go BOOM!
I've always assumed much the same. Though psionic powers that reach across space -- and perhaps pass through to other planes -- are tended by more severe restrictions... if only to emphasise the pure unpredictability of the Phlogiston.
quote:
I always wanted to see a psionic-based spelljamming helm.
Indeed. I've even tinkered with the possibility of psi-jamming -- which could potentially work in both the Phlogiston and the Astral Plane. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 06:52:29
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| I thought psijammers were canon. The silverhelms of the Githyanki? Presumably the illithids don't rely solely on lifejammers ... mental energy can be replenished whereas expending slaves as fuel means there are fewer left to eat. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 08:15:36
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There's the voidjammers too, from DRAGON #159, which are essentially astral-travelling vessels powered by a combination of psionic energy and captured illithid brains.
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Edited by - The Sage on 01 Jan 2012 08:16:13 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 18:26:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Is there any canon describing how psionics are affected within Phlogiston? [...]
Specifically, I'm curious about how well the inertial barrier, dream travel, and time-space anchor powers would operate.
Dunno, but common-sense says since psionics is inner-power based, it's about effects only. Thus...
inertial barrier: normal - like Force magic.
dream travel: disabled - no access to The Wall of Color (between border and deep Ethereal) and thus no way to use dreamscapes.
time-space anchor: works, but obsolete - like with dimensional anchor, translocation and extradimensional effects don't work anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I thought psijammers were canon.
Well, yeah, but they only need to provide "touch to magic" (generic psionic-magic wrapper, so to speak) and the rest works just like spelljamming. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 18:41:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I thought psijammers were canon. The silverhelms of the Githyanki? Presumably the illithids don't rely solely on lifejammers ... mental energy can be replenished whereas expending slaves as fuel means there are fewer left to eat.
Not that I recall. I don't recall the Githyanki having any presence in arcane space, and the illithids have another helm type they've developed, the pool helm. What I'm referring to is a spelljamming helm keyed specifically to psionics -- that's not something I recall seeing anywhere in Spelljammer canon. |
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Phlogiston - Excerpt Discussion from 'Sorcery'
