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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 11:50:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I do prefer the not-a-deity-and-loving-it version of Myrkul that is canon, I can't find fault with your idea. It's not the route I'd go, but I don't find it objectionable. 
I'd have been fine with this version if not for the fact that he's sponsoring priests. When I read that, I just rolled my eyes and like, "Then he's a deity living in the Crown of Horns! Really, people!"
It was a nice change from the usual, "Oh, I want to be back and kill everyone!" though.
Do you speak of the Horned Harbinger PrC? Because that PrC gets no priest abilities other than those focusing on undead, all the class features focus on the undead, and the requirement to pick up this PrC is to come into physical contact with the artifact containing a former deity... I don't see that as sponsoring priests. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 11:51:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Another idea for this topic, though... Perhaps the resurrection of Myrkul is someone else's plot. Perhaps another deity wants to use Myrkul in some capacity, and needs him to be a deity to do it. The Asmodeus stuff is irrelevant to this other deity's plans...
In fact, the idea of giving Myrkul back his power and divinity might just be so someone else can take it. 
Eh, that doesn't work for me simply because it was the PCs who came up with it.
Ah, but that's what this sneaky deity wants them to think! Was it really their idea when it was his manipulations to put them in the position to think of it? |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 04:44:52
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In any case, guys, I've decided to go with the idea that Myrkul is going to be playing along with the PCs and Mystra for the time being but actually intends to become something entirely different from a deity - a kind of embodiment of Necromantic Power that will be completely independent of worshipers.
Either that or he's going to do something otherwise as nefarious such as moving his essence amongst his worshipers so he's a gestalt. Basically, something that won't be as subject to the whims of fate as before.
I'm debating whether or not the "Myrkul God" that the PCs will deal with and Mystra will be Myrkul at all or just a creation of his that genuinely IS as loyal as it appears and is just a distraction.
Though I worry that's too convoluted.
Edit:
I am tempted to simplify it though that Myrkul, actually, will just manipulate the PCs to using Asmodeus' true name to kill the Ruler of Hell outright (destroying Azuth in the process) and this will allow Myrkul to step into the role and become the Ruler of the Nine Hells.
It's not QUITE the job he held before but it has a lot more job security.
(FYI - in my universe, the Realms is part of a larger multiverse but the Realms deities are pretty damn powerful and all of them are pretty much multi-spheric so their conflicts are HUGE) |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 22 Dec 2011 04:47:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 01:24:09
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Maybe he wants Jergal's job.
I always thought Jergal was something more then a deity - some sort of Avatar of death itself. If Jergal is some sort of necrotic Primordial, then perhaps that is what Myrkul is after.
Think about it - Jergal didn't want the job anymore, and now, neither does Myrkul. Isn't that a bit odd? There must be something that both have discovered - something better. Maybe their relationship with death has given them a glimpse of whatever lies beyond godhood. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 02:07:42
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I think it would take a hell of a lot more than his truename to really kill Asmodeus. It might be enough to summon him (oops), manipulate him (haha), bind or imprison him (for a while), banish him (for a century, maybe) ... but truename alone is just not enough to destroy him. He is utterly sovereign and supreme in Hell, he is the manifested cosmic avatar of pure personified Lawful Evil, he has not been displaced by even the combined hateful might of the other arch-devils, nor by the infinite howling legions of pure Chaos in the Blood War, nor by countless aeons of cooperative assaults by countless Good-aligned gods and celestials.
I think the only thing Asmodeus gained from Azuth (aside from a few useful arcane secrets) was the divinity needed to assert himself as a proper god within the Realms. Without it he was (and would be) still just a devil bound to only manifest within the Realms (or any other world away from Baator) by being subject to the same constraints as any other devil - chief among these being subject under the control of another will through utterance of his truename. Asmodeus could already command infinitely more power (and, in theory, the ultimate allegiance of every Baatezu in the cosmos) while in his throne on Baator ... Azuth's power would be just a drop in the bucket ... but Azuth's power in the Realms was considerable, while Asmodeus's influence there was limited.
I would personally say that Myrkul might be able to usurp once-Azuth's power, and thus cripple Asmodeus's growing influence in the Realms. But should Myrkul ever find himself anywhere on Baator ever again he would be exposed to Asmodeus's full and unforgiving wrath.
Azuth + Myrkul portfolios (give or take, plus a dash of devil) would make an interesting evil god of necromancers and warlocks. Much more interesting than dull old neutral boring Kelemvor (plus, incidentally, one whose very existence defies Kelemvor, pah screw natural life/death cycles and just necro all you want!). A much more exciting villain than simpering Cyric the Incompetent. Give priests of Myrkzuthmodeus some hellfire to play with and Red Wizards would be lining up to worship him.
[Edit]
Let's not forget that Asmodeus's arch-rival is Mephistopheles, and Meph has managed to recently secure some divinity from a Realms god as well. A much bigger Realms god than Azuth. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Dec 2011 03:11:19 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 03:11:59
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Very nice write-up.
Honestly, were the PCs to erase Asmodeus, I'd state that given the Lord of Nessus is the embodiment of evil then he'd eventually be reborn from the accumulated evil of the cosmos. Basically, spontaneously regenerating (though of questionable origins as the same Asmodeus).
Still, it would do nasty things to the hierarchy of Baator and result in a very brief civil war. Also, Glaysia would be extremely upset.
The other option, I suspect, would be that Bane would immediately set up shop at the bottom of Nessus and REVEAL to the PCs that the whole issue of finding the True Name of Asmodeus was something he was involved in from the very beginning. Indeed, it was he who used Myrkul and Halastar as a catspaw.
Then again, I like the idea of Bane as the ultimate master of LE! |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 03:12:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I confess, they do love taking refuge in audacity don't they?
... I'm totally unclear how to proceed from here, though I admire the Pc's craziness.
Well if the PCs control the game, you just have to go with the flow.
Maybe that is why I see a few other threads popup that make no sense to me. The DM is greater then AO and to allow the PCS to cause what appears to be a meltdown in campaign bothers me. The PCs under certain versions of Editions are allowed to try everything and the DM set the chance of success. Older Editions a 20 natural role was good for many things, hitting AC, saving throw. The newer Editions DC has been used where a role of 20 is not good enough, one might need a 40 or 50. Of course modifiers apply, however something that appears to destroy or at least offers a major alteration to your game world should have had a DC of some thing of 150, something AO could do.
If you are having fun in the game, that is good. That you ask for help because the players went off the map is clearly understandable. Letting the PCs make deities strikes me as so very wrong that it makes it hard for me to even follow this scroll. The DM determines the deities, the DM determines if a new deity arises, the PCs (and your players) do not have the right to impose a deity on your game. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 03:16:13
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quote:
If you are having fun in the game, that is good. That you ask for help because the players went off the map is clearly understandable. Letting the PCs make deities strikes me as so very wrong that it makes it hard for me to even follow this scroll. The DM determines the deities, the DM determines if a new deity arises, the PCs (and your players) do not have the right to impose a deity on your game.
I follow the school of thought that the PCs *SHOULD* be able to do anything that they set out to do from overthrow the Zulkirs of Thay to make Unther into the world's largest bowl of tapioca pudding. After all, they're the "Stars" of the game. The question, of course, is HOW they go about this and how much they have to do.
Usually, their plans are anything but stupid and this wasn't the case of such. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 03:24:44
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I find the premise of this scroll engaging. Although I am personally far more parsimonious in applying divine intervention within my campaign. I have always been critical of Wizbro rattling deities around the Realms like pinballs, to me it seems heavyhanded and clumsy - and I daresay, a bit amateurish and uncaring - to drop divine nukes and craters all over the place when a nice little hoard of orcs or zombies in front of an evil cabal of really ugly magic-users would do just fine.
Still, just because my definitions for epic playstyle are more conservative than other peoples' doesn't mean their definitions are less valid. It seems like CP and his gang are having tons of fun, and that's what it's really about. Plus Myrkul is a good all-rounder dark and manly sort of god, and Asmodeus is the classic übernasty (1E Asmodeus = 4E Chuck Norris), thankfully the plot doesn't revolve around Cyric or Blood Raven or that annoyingly overused bunch of Seldarine hippies - I'm interested in reading about where this all goes. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Dec 2011 03:31:07 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 04:25:58
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Oh, in my game, I flat out just use the human deities as the Seldarine. I substitute Lathander for Corellon, Selune for Sehanine, Sune for Hanali, and Silvanus while keeping the elven names. It's not that I don't like the elven gods, I just think the human "nature deities" have better personalities.
Plus, it fits my personal idiom the elves are totally arrogant about their special relationship with the gods while they're helping humans too.
Weirdly, I *LIKE* Cyric but for the life of me have never used him in a single plot after the Time of Troubles save as a generic source of badness. I think there's something about Cyric that you really can't use his followers seriously.
Call me crazy.
I SHOULD like Cyric too since his portfolio would make him the ultimate schemer god. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 23 Dec 2011 04:28:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 05:10:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe he wants Jergal's job.
I always thought Jergal was something more then a deity - some sort of Avatar of death itself. If Jergal is some sort of necrotic Primordial, then perhaps that is what Myrkul is after.
Think about it - Jergal didn't want the job anymore, and now, neither does Myrkul. Isn't that a bit odd? There must be something that both have discovered - something better. Maybe their relationship with death has given them a glimpse of whatever lies beyond godhood.
Nothing says Myrkul didn't want the job... What we know is that once he was free of the limitations of divinity, he was digging it. That's not at all the same thing. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 05:32:47
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quote:
I find the premise of this scroll engaging. Although I am personally far more parsimonious in applying divine intervention within my campaign. I have always been critical of Wizbro rattling deities around the Realms like pinballs, to me it seems heavyhanded and clumsy - and I daresay, a bit amateurish and uncaring - to drop divine nukes and craters all over the place when a nice little hoard of orcs or zombies in front of an evil cabal of really ugly magic-users would do just fine.
The Forgotten Realms is the only setting where I use the gods like in Greek Mythology. Basically, they're everywhere and they have their fingers in everything. I try not to overuse them but I do treat them like NPCs in the fact that they have personalities and the PCs may well interact with them on a semi-regular basis.
Of course, I enjoy having PCs who are Chosen, Ex-Chosen, or children of deities (again like Greek Mythology).
Hilariously, I use Liches and powerful wizards more conservatively because they're more prone to operate plots within plots.
quote:
Still, just because my definitions for epic playstyle are more conservative than other peoples' doesn't mean their definitions are less valid. It seems like CP and his gang are having tons of fun, and that's what it's really about. Plus Myrkul is a good all-rounder dark and manly sort of god, and Asmodeus is the classic übernasty (1E Asmodeus = 4E Chuck Norris), thankfully the plot doesn't revolve around Cyric or Blood Raven or that annoyingly overused bunch of Seldarine hippies - I'm interested in reading about where this all goes.
Then again, part of that just may be Ao smacking him down.
Plus, that's what convincing arguments from PCs are for!
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 23 Dec 2011 23:21:57 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 12:09:37
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BTW -
The adventure where Myrkul was "resurrected" happened yesterday. Thanks to the suggestions of everyone here, I had a lot of fun with what I wanted to do. Basically, Myrkul laughed them off when they suggested resurrecting him. Then he willingly gave them the portion of Asmodeus' true name - pointing out that a Devil as a Greater God would ultimately mean the end of the Multiverse as the destruction of the Outer Planes proved.
Myrkul, as former God of the Dead, had more professional pride than to let that happened.
He then proved to be a very popular Magnificent Villain (see TV tropes and substitute one word) by offering one of the PCs a cure to his current "campaign motivation." (every PC in my games has a single plotline they have to deal with). In this case, Myrkul used the PC's problem to raise HIMSELF from the dead and transform himself into a independent thing.
Worse, the PC in question is now linked to Myrkul and draining the lifeforce of all of those he kills - adding them to Myrkul's power as it regenerates in the Astral.
Currently, it's being worshiped as the god of Secrets, Forbidden Knowledge, Undeath, and Necromancy. However, it's not limited by the worship of its followers and it's currently unbound to any deity.
No idea what I'm going to do with it but it's a campaign issue now. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 15:09:33
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| Now that's an interesting development... What was the PC's issue that Myrkul was so sneakily able to capitalize on? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2011 : 15:45:15
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Long story short, missing his soul. I ripped off Baldur's Gate 2 for the plotline, more or less. A lich-Drow removed the PC's soul as a child as part of an experiment to see if he could overcome the whole, "Liches don't gain levels" business. Which is, I point out, canon in my Realms.
He's currently now got the soul of a Shadow Dragon inside him.
A former Chosen of Myrkul who is getting a second chance at harvesting souls for his master.
Edit:
Amusingly, this will lead to a bit of bickering between the soul of the PC and his new soul when they finally do kill their Lich foe. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 24 Dec 2011 15:46:04 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2011 : 06:10:02
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quote:
Charles Phipps
Weirdly, I *LIKE* Cyric but for the life of me have never used him in a single plot after the Time of Troubles save as a generic source of badness. I think there's something about Cyric that you really can't use his followers seriously.
I SHOULD like Cyric too since his portfolio would make him the ultimate schemer god.
Cyric is an anomaly, yes. The first I ever saw his name, in the Avatar Trilogy, I thought "what a little girly name, this guy and the pretty-boy cleric gonna die". When I later saw his canon stats I shook my head in disbelief. I mean, certainly not all characters are powergamers ... at the least you cannot accuse Cyric of cheating ... but his rolls would be a throwaway at every gaming table I've ever seen; the quantitative parameters defining his character are laughably worthless. From his behaviour in the trilogy, the qualitative parameters defining his character are equally worthless. He was basically just a handy extra standing within arm's reach while Ao was handing out portfolios. Coulda (and shoulda) been anybody else.
Not just any old portfolio, mind ye, but a collection of some of the coolest ones the setting could offer. My players and I tried to give Cyric a chance, but his priests just weren't as cool as Myrkul's or Bane's no matter how you cut it. (To this day I wonder if Godsbane was a shortsword or longsword, sources differ.)
Then two more Avatar novels were written, putting Cyric right on center stage. Excellent novels, among the very best and most provocative Realms products ever written. Cyric's portfolios were then tweaked in some really interesting ways.
If only Cyric could be split like Tyche into two lesser deities. One could be the useless god of liars, fools, idiots, incompetants, obsession, and insanity - while the other could be the god of all the cool necro stuff. That would work for me. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2011 : 06:13:33
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Yeah, totally off topic, the one plot I'm going to use him in is the Knights of Samular having adopted the worship of "Cyron, the God of Truth." Basically, making them the biggest collection of Psychotic Hypocrites in the Realms with a theology based on BURN THE WITCH.
Cyric, of course, finds it delicious.
The problem is, I swear, this plot might just as well work with Bane. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2011 : 06:27:51
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Bane would indeed be a fine replacement for Asmodeus-in-Hell. However, LE powers from non-Realms pantheons might object. Vecna is another excellent candidate. Tough choice.
Is not Oghma already the god of truth in the Realms? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2011 : 10:01:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Bane would indeed be a fine replacement for Asmodeus-in-Hell. However, LE powers from non-Realms pantheons might object. Vecna is another excellent candidate. Tough choice.
Is not Oghma already the god of truth in the Realms?
Well, Cyric is the one who is saying he's the God of Truth. Being the God of Lies, I think that's sort of his job to misrepresent his dogma to his worshipers.
As for non-realms deities, I generally minimize their importance in the setting. Mostly because I hint the Realms deities are multi-spheric and the big boys in the Multiverse.
Then again, Vecna is pretty awesome.
:) |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2011 : 10:42:17
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I can already envision the Hand and Eye of Asmodeus. Wonderful artifacts. Possibly more fun than a truename.  |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 17:33:12
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The PC had a 'walk-in'? Cool! 
Is Myrkul a sword, like what Mask did? A sort of 'Stormbringer' scenario. I think thats a pretty awesome idea (or is he still in the crown, or both?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 23:38:01
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More like a unwitting partner to the PCs. He'll be taunting dreams and shadows for awhile.
Okay guys, I have the climax for my game prepared.
Myrkul's plot will climax when and if the PCs free Tyr and separate Azuth from Asmodeus, which if all goes well will result in them doing their last wild card and actually using Asmodeus' true name to destroy the Archdemon. Given who my players are, this is subject to change, but I could also have one of the gods do it.
This will result in Myrkul's spirit leaving one of the PCs and then absorb all the energy released by Asmodeus' death. Yep, Myrkul is now the King of Nessus and Ruler of the Nine Hells. He's an Archdemon who is a Greater God within his Realm but freed from all the restrictions of being a deity.
Worse, Bane and his new sidekick Garagos (who is a LE Exarch and more like Hextor in my games - due to Xvim's soul being placed inside him) show up and pretty much reveal that the PCs have been following their script the entire time. Bane is now ruler of the Nine Hells with Myrkul as his proxy and it was they who were manipulating events since before Tyr's killing Helm. It'll seem like a classic "Bad guys win" scenario.
WHICH I INTEND TO PROMPTY SUBVERT.
One thing I don't much care for is the way the gods of evil get to act out their porfolios with seeming no attempt for the gods of good to do the same. In this respect, I'm going to have Tyr reveal that Bane's assumption of the throne of the Nine Hells means he's now permanently trapped there with it becoming his domain instead of Achereon (where I had him normally). Hell, after all, was originally a prison for Asmodeus in my games after all.
Myrkul is even worse off as he can't even leave Nessus.
I'm tempted for Tyr to also briefly be possessed by Ao or simply point out that the ruler of the Nine Hells also has a responsibility that Asmodeus attempted to subvert - it is part of the PUNISHMENT for the Ruler of the Nine Hells to keep the number of Demons generated in the Abyss from overflowing. They're currently wrecking a lot of the Multiverse and things are getting bad.
Yes, the Dark Triad must now resume the Blood War. A never-ending, ceaseless, pointless fight. Garagos, alone, will be allowed to marshal their armies to fight it. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 27 Dec 2011 23:44:23 |
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So, my PCs just resurrected Myrkul *HELP*
