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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 00:20:24
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Across aber Toril and beyond Dragons are feared and respected as a race. Does their relative place in the power hierarchy remain the same on the outer planes? Specifically the lower planes with many powerful beings walking around (in Hell, the Abyss, and Hades e.t.c. ) how are dragons generally regarded?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 00:36:27
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It depends on the viewer. At high level I see them as dragon meat and dragon armour.
At low level I am Please do not see me.
Dragons as a race earning respect, this does not appear possible. Individual Dragons can earn friendship and respect and others earning fear and distrust. I f you really consider it Dragons war within their own kind, Good vs. Evil and skin colour and on and on. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 05:31:09
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No. To Vhostym's race, dragons are pets. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 07:37:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
No. To Vhostym's race, dragons are pets.
Source? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 08:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
No. To Vhostym's race, dragons are pets.
Source?
From Dawn of Night, p. 29:
quote:
Nothing short of a god would risk confrontation with Vhostym. In his time, he had single-handedly slain flights of dragons, annihilated entire faiths, left worlds in flame behind him.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 12:24:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
No. To Vhostym's race, dragons are pets.
Source?
From Dawn of Night, p. 29:
quote:
Nothing short of a god would risk confrontation with Vhostym. In his time, he had single-handedly slain flights of dragons, annihilated entire faiths, left worlds in flame behind him.
 That says nothing about pets! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 04 Dec 2011 12:30:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 12:27:25
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It's debatable whether the Githvyrik are in fact a proper race, their numbers are few (perhaps just a few dozen, or a handful, or only one) and their self-identification might be based on distinctions which are social, political/national, magical/psionic instead of any which are biological. Regardless, the Gith races respect dragons (especially red dragons) but I doubt they'd consider themselves lower on the food chain.
It's worth noting that 1E described Tiamat as the indisputed "Arch-devil" lord and ruler of Avernus (first layer of the Nine Hells). Her station as one of the Nine meant that she was effectively immortal and not even the gods could lightly challenge her power within her domain.
2E Spelljammer introduced Stellar Dragons, Planescape introduced some of what are now called Planar Dragons, and various semi-unique Ed-dragons appeared throughout the Realms. These beasts were vastly superior to their plain-vanilla counterparts, they could generally eat regular dragons for lunch without much difficulty. The Draconomicon, Council of Wyrms, and other accessories beefed dragons up substantially for high-level play.
I wholeheartedly agree with Kentinel; dragons are best avoided until higher levels, at which point they start looking like a nice pair of dragonskin boots, a phat pile of hoarded magical loot, and a sizeable chunk of XP. The OP appears to answer its own question: the power of each being determines how it regards dragons. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 13:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
No. To Vhostym's race, dragons are pets.
Source?
From Dawn of Night, p. 29:
quote:
Nothing short of a god would risk confrontation with Vhostym. In his time, he had single-handedly slain flights of dragons, annihilated entire faiths, left worlds in flame behind him.
That says nothing about pets!
It's a figure of speech.
One can't be on top of the food chain if he can easily be slain by a certain race. Which the dragons are to the Githvyrik. Pets, insignificant insects, roaches. Call them whatever you want; they mean the same thing. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 14:48:17
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| Well that Vhostym wielded such power doesn't automatically mean that others of his race had the same power. Not all humans are as powerfull as Elminster for example |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 16:15:39
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Well that Vhostym wielded such power doesn't automatically mean that others of his race had the same power. Not all humans are as powerfull as Elminster for example
Agreed and Cale was not a God when he took Vhostym out. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 16:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It's debatable whether the Githvyrik are in fact a proper race, their numbers are few (perhaps just a few dozen, or a handful, or only one) and their self-identification might be based on distinctions which are social, political/national, magical/psionic instead of any which are biological. Regardless, the Gith races respect dragons (especially red dragons) but I doubt they'd consider themselves lower on the food chain.
It's worth noting that 1E described Tiamat as the indisputed "Arch-devil" lord and ruler of Avernus (first layer of the Nine Hells). Her station as one of the Nine meant that she was effectively immortal and not even the gods could lightly challenge her power within her domain.
The OP appears to answer its own question: the power of each being determines how it regards dragons.
I believe Tiamat has a son with one of EIGHT. A 2 headed monstrosity that is feared throughout the Hells....
It seems like there is some sort of kinship between Evil Dragons and Devils but not so much with Demons or Yugoloths. From a personal power perspective the average dragon equates out to a powerful fiend while some of the more ancient varieties would give a pit fiend pause, I would think.
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 21:09:30
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Cale was not a God when he took Vhostym out.
Vhostym would have died anyways and he let Cale kill him... |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 22:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
No. To Vhostym's race, dragons are pets.
Source?
From Dawn of Night, p. 29:
quote:
Nothing short of a god would risk confrontation with Vhostym. In his time, he had single-handedly slain flights of dragons, annihilated entire faiths, left worlds in flame behind him.
That says nothing about pets!
It's a figure of speech.
One can't be on top of the food chain if he can easily be slain by a certain race. Which the dragons are to the Githvyrik. Pets, insignificant insects, roaches. Call them whatever you want; they mean the same thing.
 Right! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2011 : 00:39:11
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I had a pert cockroach once. I got hungry so I ate him. Does that make me his god? 
Nicolai could kill Vhostym. I heard he took-out a flight of Chuck Norris' once, and their WAAAAAY tougher then Dragons.
I think things like Leviathans (the mythic creature, not the D&D whales), Krakentua, and the Terrasque would all consider dragons prey. Hell, Gargantua, Krakens, & Rocs would give them a run for their money (as would a Titan, etc). There were also those giant turtle-thingies from Zakhara, and a similar turtle-creature in the Spelljammer setting (based on the Kaiju monster Gamera). In fact, IIRC, there were several creatures in SJ that were insanely huge and wouldn't think much of most dragons.
In a infinitely large multiverse, there is ALWAYS a Bigger Fish. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2011 : 10:00:39
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| It all depends on what kind of dragons we are talking bout I guess. If we think about dragons with class levels this is jet a completly diffrent story, for examples those with wizard or sorcerer levels. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2011 : 10:28:25
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Well that Vhostym wielded such power doesn't automatically mean that others of his race had the same power. Not all humans are as powerfull as Elminster for example
The Githvyrik is a whole new race created by Paul himself. There are very of them, and are so independent that it may even be incorrect to call them a race. But if we define 'race' as people belonging to certain genetic make-up, then they are one.
Little is known about them. I could be wrong in assuming they are more or less equally powerful. It's also possible Vhostym isn't the strongest of them all.
Perhaps this is something we can bring over to Paul's thread. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2011 : 11:32:44
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These questions about githvyrik have already been asked, and answered, in Paul's thread. I'd assumed his moderate vagueness on some points was the usual "NDA" shield, but times have changed so maybe his answers will too.
Little is known about the githvyrik because, essentially, only one was needed and so only one was created for the novelization. Vhostym's "race" is detailed and extrapolated almost exlusively through descriptions of him since no other sources are available. He's also an exceptional individual ... the situation might be comparable to describing the entire human race when given Elminster or the Simbul as the only existing specimen; many of the extraordinary attributes of that individual are not at all expressed by the race as a whole, while the race also has many capacities which that individual poorly exemplifies.
For all we know, "Githvyrik" might mean "Followers of Vyros" or be an ethnic label or be Forerunner/Gith mutants or indicate test subjects/projects used by an illithid biologist named Vyrisik. Vhostym may indeed be a (semi)unique variation surviving his proto-githyanki origins, his heritage might have been exterminated or diluted within the modern gith races. In any case, we are fairly certain that there aren't many githvyriks, certainly far fewer in number than dragons. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Dec 2011 12:21:25 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2011 : 16:08:49
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It appears like jordanz has the right of it. Here are Ed's thoughts about the topic:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all.
I bring you the latest replies from Ed of the Greenwood:
[snip] Dennis, re. your "top of the food chain" question: sorry, things just aren't that simple and clear-cut in the Realms. Nor do any of the four races you cite behave in perfect collectives, so what's true for one Phaerimm may not be for another, ditto dragons, ditto aboleths; they spend far more time, thought, and energy in rivalries among themselves than they do fighting other races. And if you're trying to ask "who's most powerful, and who's dominant right now?" the answer is NDA and (hint) may well not be confined to those four choices...
So saith Ed, Creator of the Realms and its most keen and long-serving observer.
love to all,
THO
and
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
. . . And Ed's come right back with an addition to his response about "top of the food chain:"
The most dominant of those four races, in the Realms, down the centuries, has clearly been dragonkind, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily personally most powerful, and again: individual variances trump racial ones.
So saith Ed. Again.
love,
THO
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2011 : 06:43:07
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| They are influential in the Astral Plane (cause of the githyanki), Baator, and quasielemental Salt (Tor Salinus), that's I think all outside of Prime and their godly domains |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12022 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2011 : 19:57:50
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
I believe Tiamat has a son with one of EIGHT.
I'd like to have a son with Seven of Nine myself! |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Idamar of Thay
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 15:56:54
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I see dragons sort of like the Wolverine of the Realms ; They're powerful and fearsome, wich means that to show a new character is very strong, you have him beat up a few wyrms.
However I think their greatest failing is the dependence on their already considerable power. What's the point of learning advanced sorcery when your breath can fell most foes? Why search for protective talismans(other than for your hoard) when your scales can deflect most weapons? While humanoid races are always growing stronger, dragons are...stagnant.
However I would think that by now there would be a great wyrm or two with the wisdom to stay away from pointless territorial disputes and maybe enough curiosity to seriously dedicate himself to advanced study of magic. A dragon archmage would be very interesting. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 17:24:19
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There are dragons which are sorcerers or wizards, and some with armor protections and some with protective runes on their scales.
Without the draco rage mythal I guess dragons would still be the dominant and ruling species on toril |
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Topic |
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Are Dragons top of the food chain everywhere?
