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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Dec 2011 : 03:10:48
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| I understand, I just wanted to establish that I am not a big fan of the grim and gritty and there's varying degrees of it. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 19 Dec 2011 05:20:24 |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2011 : 09:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
I prefer my Realms light-hearted and fun, somewhere between Azure Bonds and Baldur's Gate II is just right.
Death, murder and sex is fine - rape, degradation ect does not fit the style of the setting IMO.
I actually thought Baldur's Gate 2 had plenty of gritty and dark in it, and think the Realms as a whole has plenty of room for grit.
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How much grit you include is up to you and your group, the setting isn't hardwired one particular way.
You are not wrong, and thanks for the reminders - in fact I thinks it time to play BGII again 
I'm not gonna split hairs over definitions of "grit", maybe I'm using it wrong, but to me part of it is the level of detail. Good fiction that feature explicit cruelty creates an emotional impact to show why the protagonists fight.
BGII does that, but holds back on the details, and the protagonists (at least) always has a way out. I think the same goes for most of the published material, I think its fitting, but like you say, its not hardwired.
Azure Bonds, my other reference, is even lighter in tone. In AB, the villains are almost comical. I like that for casual games, thus I play out my realms games (currently shelved in favor of a grittier setting) in a tone somewhere between BGII and AB.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2011 : 18:00:42
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Though they do not exactly mean the same, sometimes dark and gritty tend to overlap. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2011 : 20:14:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Though they do not exactly mean the same, sometimes dark and gritty tend to overlap.
Captain Obvious is obvious. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 03:36:29
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I love it when someone tells me my opinion's wrong.
Opinions can't be wrong - they are opinions. Only facts can be wrong. If I thought the moon was made out of cheese, then my facts would be in error, but I would still have my opinion, regardless. Its mine, for better or worse.
The new Waterdeep feels gritty to me - at least far more grittier then I recall it being in 1e/2e/3e. I don't remember so much of the city being in disrepair and downtrodden. It has an 'unhealthy' air about it.
I think Jack Vance's novels were gritty, in that most of the characters were completely uncaring about the rest of the world. Not so much a dirty 'grittiness', but rather an attitude 'grittiness'. I am sure many would disagree with me (but that wouldn't change my opinion).
At the same time, I think some settings/authors may try to 'dirty up' something to give it a gritty feel, and that is what I would term 'faux gritty'. Characters can be fastidiously clean - almost insanely so - and yet be very gritty.
The few 4e novels I have read have a slightly different feel from earlier books. We always had the 'bad guys' being Gritty (or faux-Gritty), willing to sacrifice whoever and whatever to get what they want. That was the nature of evil. 'Heroes' were the good guys because they did not stoop to the same level as the evil ones. They were made of finer stuff.
This is no longer the case, Now common folks believe 'the end justifies the means'... even, sadly, Elminster (amongst many others). Its almost as if the Spellplague has made folks numb. As if when Elminster stopped caring, so did the world.
Once again, just my opinion - its what I came away with from the few books I have read thus far. Mystra was Toril's 'soul' - the world is a lot less brighter without her in it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Dec 2011 03:59:02 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 03:48:24
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Yeah, I guess I'd like the Realms to be a refuge from a dark and unpleasant place.
The fantasy version of Star Wars.
I like Erevis Cale but, crazy enough, I'd like to see the good guys win in the novels.
Lolth to get smacked down.
Shandril to LIVE.
Elminster to stop eating rats.
Storm to date my PC (ahem)
Drizzt to...do Drizzty things. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 04:01:31
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"Drizzty things"  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 14:20:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I love it when someone tells me my opinion's wrong.
Opinions can't be wrong - they are opinions. Only facts can be wrong. If I thought the moon was made out of cheese, then my facts would be in error, but I would still have my opinion, regardless. Its mine, for better or worse.
Actually, opinions can be wrong, and frequently are. Part of the problem is that you're basing your opinion on a skewed understanding of a definitional term.
If an opinion is formulated or based on faulty information, misunderstood definitions, or is skewed such that it only draws on personal experience when making a wider claim or assessment, opinions can very frequently be wrong.
Examples:
- "As a musician, Lady Gaga is more influential than Chopin or Bach ever were."
- "The Earth is the center of the universe, and all heavenly bodies move around the Earth."
Both are opinions, and both are demonstrably false and therefore wrong. Many, many opinions fall into this category. As yours does, considering that you have stated that Waterdeep is "gritty" when it's just about as far away from stark realism as one can get. Because of the definition, and because of the elements present (and not present) in the Realms, it is high fantasy not gritty.
What "can't be wrong" are opinions on taste, or opinions that are based entirely on subjective observation where there is no objective information available.
Example: "I like chicken burritos more than bean burritos."
And by the way, facts are facts. Data is data. Neither facts nor data can be wrong, they just are. Facts can be misquoted or misunderstood, however, quite easily, leading either to incorrect statements or wrong opinions. Happens a lot. If you believed that the moon was made of cheese, you'd simply be wrong: you cannot claim that your belief ("it's cheese!") is a fact, as you have no objective data in that regard. Furthermore, objective data does exist that the moon isn't made of cheese. So the facts aren't wrong, you and your opinion are wrong.
quote:
The new Waterdeep feels gritty to me - at least far more grittier then I recall it being in 1e/2e/3e. I don't remember so much of the city being in disrepair and downtrodden. It has an 'unhealthy' air about it.
I think Jack Vance's novels were gritty, in that most of the characters were completely uncaring about the rest of the world. Not so much a dirty 'grittiness', but rather an attitude 'grittiness'. I am sure many would disagree with me (but that wouldn't change my opinion).
That's unfortunate, because what I think you really mean is that the Realms are simply darker than they've ever been. The Realms may have a few elements common to grit, but the high fantasy cancels out any remote possibility of a truly gritty kind of fiction. Rapid healing, readily available magic on every street corner, these things take all the urgency away that is necessary for stark realism - which is definitional for gritty fantasy.
quote:
At the same time, I think some settings/authors may try to 'dirty up' something to give it a gritty feel, and that is what I would term 'faux gritty'. Characters can be fastidiously clean - almost insanely so - and yet be very gritty.
Um, grit isn't necessarily about dirt and grime...
And this thing about being "X" and "Faux-X" at the same time, that makes no sense whatsoever. Either it meets literary criteria definitions for a particular genre or it doesn't.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 20 Dec 2011 14:40:51 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 14:59:38
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So R.A. does gritty rather well then, for I can remember about two times in the past 14 novels that magical healing was used....by anyone. Also, there were some pretty grim moments in the Hunter's Blades trilogy, which I feel adds to a certain amout of grit overall.
I also feel Waterdeep is more gritty now than it was pre-Spellplague, espically how Erik described Downshadow (which sounds abysmal to say the least). Keep in mind the actual realism of the Realms and that probably over 50% of Waterdeeps population couldn't afford magical healing potions very often (if ever). Most commoners deal in copper and silver pieces, not gold. Furthermore, the Realms can have as much or as little grit as an author feels best to throw in, which doesn't necessarily reflect the Realms as a whole. Just because a writer doesn't touch upon "gritty" subject matter does not mean it doesn't exist. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 16:05:43
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Okay. I'm glad you 'set me straight' on my ignorance of a purely subjective observation. 
This topic now reminds me of all the arguments I have seen on the net regarding what is 'High' & 'Low' Fantasy. I'm sure you have an opinion on that as well.
And I still say the moon is made out of cheese - prove me wrong. Everyone knows they faked the Lunar landings. Until someone takes me to the moon and shoves a wad of it in my mouth, my opinion still stands.
If everyone agreed to the precise definition of things, we wouldn't have wars (or internet disagreements). I never said you were wrong, I merely stated how I saw things - the Realms feels very different to me. I try to be subjective about this - I know many folks here (myself usually included) automatically hate anything '4e' just because its 4e, and I hope that is not what is happening here. I never said I liked it - I said I found it more useful. Once again, the new Realms have an 'unhealthy' feel to them to me, which is entirely subjective.
For instance, I never pictured clouds of mosquitoes over Waterdeep harbor - now I do. It could very well be that there were more vermin in 1e/2e/3e, but that doesn't change my now-skewed outlook, and something must be giving me this impression.
I used to feel the 'good guys' were truly good, but now not so much. Everything seems 'tarnished' to me; not just physically, but psychologically. I almost get the impression most folks have gone from having hope, to living day-to-day.
And once again, just the vibe I get now, which is my subjective opinion. I don't think 'Gritty' can be perfectly defined - it is more of a 'emotional thing' - you either feel it, or you don't.
One last thing - it all depends on what your are taking into account. I think neither SW or LotR are 'gritty', and yet, Obi Wan cutting off that guys arm, and Boromir betraying the Fellowship, were both 'gritty moments'. The Realms always had grit, but now I feel it is a bit more prevalent.
And there are varying degrees of 'grit' - in the excellent book Throne of Bones, a guy catches his wife sleeping with a Ghoul (and the scene is described in all its horrific glory). Thats not just 'gritty', its gruesome and macabre. Horror can also be gritty or non-gritty - Jaws was not gritty (the novel was, a little, but not the movie). To me, 'grit' requires you to feel a bit sullied by viewing/reading it. Does the bad guy wipe off his dagger on his victim's cloths... or does he lick it clean? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2011 00:37:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 19:25:44
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| Maybe we can stop discussing whether or not opinions are correct, and simply focus on the topic of grittiness? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 22:15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe we can stop discussing whether or not opinions are correct, and simply focus on the topic of grittiness?
Sure, let's just throw all definitions totally out the window. Red is now blue, and green is now mauve.
You cannot honestly discuss something if everyone defines terms in a totally different way.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 22:25:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe we can stop discussing whether or not opinions are correct, and simply focus on the topic of grittiness?
Sure, let's just throw all definitions totally out the window. Red is now blue, and green is now mauve.
You cannot honestly discuss something if everyone defines terms in a totally different way.
Agreed -- but you also can't discuss something by being insulting and telling people their opinions are wrong. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 22:38:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe we can stop discussing whether or not opinions are correct, and simply focus on the topic of grittiness?
Sure, let's just throw all definitions totally out the window. Red is now blue, and green is now mauve.
You cannot honestly discuss something if everyone defines terms in a totally different way.
Agreed -- but you also can't discuss something by being insulting and telling people their opinions are wrong.
I see, it's better for the site to have someone use definitions inappropriately and call it an "opinion" (which it isn't) rather than have someone point out their error (which is now considered "insulting").
Thank you, Wooly, I will try to remember this.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 00:18:38
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I understand that you've a somewhat different interpretation with regard to this Therise.
However, I feel it's worth pointing out that Wooly isn't defending the position of scribes to use definitions inappropriately in their efforts to form opinions. Merely that you shouldn'y be so inclined to insult so quickly, and accept the possibility that some scribes may not be using definitions in the way they may have originally intended.
In these cases, respect the benefit of the doubt before you offer such judgements.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 00:59:45
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I actually just looked up the definition of gritty, and one of its (many) definitions is 'heroic'. Go figure. 
A synonym is Sandy, which is my Ex's name... I wonder what would happen if I called her 'gritty' the next time I see her. Gravely is another.... I could always call her that.
Since I am currently staying at her house, perhaps I will just stick with Sandy.
Nothing even suggests it has anything to do with 'dark', which I think is odd, but whatever. I can relate the 'lack of hope' thing I said to some of it (living for the moment, without knowing what tomorrow will bring - that sort of thing). The folk of the 4e Realms continue to 'press on', despite everything stacked against them ('plucky' is another word used in the definition).
Not precisely how I see it (once again, my opinion), as 'gritty' pertains to a fantasy story. I see it as the difference between weather the hero is willing to torture someone or not to get information - something that happened in the Erevis Cale series (and Jakk had objections with, despite the non-humaness of the adversaries). A 'gritty' hero does what he has to save the day, even if it means compromising his ethics, IMHO. Like the difference between the Paladinson (or Dragonbait) and Drizzt.
Entreri is gritty, Jarlaxle not so much (despite the fact that Entreri probably has more 'morals' then the Drow). I guess its a matter of style, or lack there-of.
Once again, just stating how I perceive things, and not stating facts, which once again, I feel are highly subjective. I am sure others here will have completely different opinions, and its all good.
And in 4e, after reading the prologue of The Orc King, I feel even Drizzt is a bit more angsty (if that is even possible). If grit means that the 'good guys' are willing to 'hunker down' in the face of overwhelming adversity (which the dictionary definition seems to imply), then the 4e realms fits that profile perfectly.
IMHO, once again.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2011 01:00:43 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 04:29:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I understand that you've a somewhat different interpretation with regard to this Therise.
However, I feel it's worth pointing out that Wooly isn't defending the position of scribes to use definitions inappropriately in their efforts to form opinions. Merely that you shouldn'y be so inclined to insult so quickly, and accept the possibility that some scribes may not be using definitions in the way they may have originally intended.
In these cases, respect the benefit of the doubt before you offer such judgements.
And I will reiterate: telling someone that they are making an error, when they clearly are, is not an insult. No one is actually flinging poo. Why be so overly sensitive?
It doesn't actually even matter, Markus isn't whining or acting butthurt, he's continuing to do and say whatever he wants, and that's his prerogative.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I actually just looked up the definition of gritty...
Great!
Beyond general language use, literary definitions are often more complex, so the only additional thing I'd add here is that Charles Phipps earlier gave a very good literary definition for "gritty" as a genre: "characterized by intensity and stark realism".
Another might be "uncompromising realism", without overt sentimentalism or romanticism, when an author is willing to show or explore the ugly details of very realistic situations.
Again, my efforts have been to point out that although the 4E Realms have become very dark, they just don't meet the literary criteria for "gritty" fiction. The new Realms are very dark indeed, peppered with gray morality allies/villains, devil worshippers, painful emotional losses, all very dark stuff indeed. But dark isn't gritty. Darkness and grit can, and often do, exist together. But since the Realms are still by definition "high fantasy", they don't meet the criteria of being starkly realistic or uncompromisingly realistic.
Anyway... gonna go play my Sith Inquisitor and painfully kill some sanctimonious Jedi now. Early access to SWTOR is the shiz.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 21 Dec 2011 05:35:46 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 05:35:15
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Yes,
I also think it somewhat betrays the theme of the Forgotten Realms to become "gritty" and frankly I'm not sure I particularly like it too terribly dark either. The Forgotten Realms always struck me as a sort of mythology as much as anything else.
It's a setting where the gods take an extremely active role in the lives of individual heroes and the people are caught up in epic struggles of good versus evil.
You can have moral ambiguity, flawed heroes, and so on in mythology. Hell, Greek Mythology is filled with absolute scumbags and so is Norse. However, I think it hurts the narrative to try and make it bleak.
Whatever the Realms is, it should be GRAND. Well written as it was, I wasn't too fond of reading about Wulfgar's Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and Alcoholism. Likewise, I wasn't a big fan of the "Iraq Invasion" redux with Luskan. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 09:53:49
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Friendly advice, MT: learn to cast ignore troll/whatever. Life's too short to dwell on bitterness. [I cast that same spell (permanently) on three scribes.]
----
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Yes,
I also think it somewhat betrays the theme of the Forgotten Realms to become "gritty" and frankly I'm not sure I particularly like it too terribly dark either. The Forgotten Realms always struck me as a sort of mythology as much as anything else.
I'd love one gritty FR novel or a trilogy released every year. But I don't want to see the entire novel line to be saturated with grittiness. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 12:48:10
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| To me it comes down to what kind of setting you are running and where en the realms it takes plase. Sometimes murder and rape is common and sometimes it is the most vile act thinkable... So it differs for me! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 12:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Another might be "uncompromising realism", without overt sentimentalism or romanticism, when an author is willing to show or explore the ugly details of very realistic situations.
Again, my efforts have been to point out that although the 4E Realms have become very dark, they just don't meet the literary criteria for "gritty" fiction. The new Realms are very dark indeed, peppered with gray morality allies/villains, devil worshippers, painful emotional losses, all very dark stuff indeed. But dark isn't gritty. Darkness and grit can, and often do, exist together. But since the Realms are still by definition "high fantasy", they don't meet the criteria of being starkly realistic or uncompromisingly realistic.
I really can't agree with this because magical healing, while present in the D&D rules, isn't as widespread as I belive you think it is. Furthermore, read Baldur's Gate by Philip Athans. Kahlid (supporting character), dies of being dissolved in an ooze less than 100 pages into the book. Xan (another supporting character), dies by decapitation from a spider not 200 pages into the book. Jaheria (main character) dies at the end of the book, however she's resurrected. This instance is only one of two such times this spell has been cast that I've read happening in ALL the realms novels over the past 15 years. Death, for all intent and purposes, is a very permanent condition in the Realms for the 90th-percentile of it's population.
Above you use one definition of gritty as "uncompromising realism", which frankly isn't very possible in ANY Fantasy novel. But lets just say that we'll use the setting itself as the "Realism" factor, and I'll agree that most novels don't come off as gritty. But that doesn't mean that the Realms can't be gritty or that there isn't room for gritty Realms novels. The setting can support such a novel (or series) just fine, I just feel authors generally don't go that route because the Realms is somehow more pure or better than going to that level.
For an example: the series by Brent Weeks, change the names of some cities and I think you could fit that story in almost any area in the Realms perfectly fine. That series has magic, assassination, death and gore, brutality, grime, murder, and pretty much everything that has to deal with true gritty fantasy AND that story would actually pretty cool if it were set in say.....Luskan or Vaasa or the Moonsea or even Impiltur.
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Edited by - Diffan on 21 Dec 2011 14:24:05 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 13:51:57
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Phil Athen? Maybe you mean Philip Athans.
The Night Angel Trilogy is probably the near-perfect example of gritty. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 14:22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Phil Athen? Maybe you mean Philip Athans.
The Night Angel Trilogy is probably the near-perfect example of gritty.
Whoops, yeah spelled Philip's name wrong. My mistake. Fixed! As for The Night Angel Trilogy, yeah it was a pretty damn good read. I also like the idea of 1 gritty series a year. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 15:11:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Friendly advice, MT: learn to cast ignore troll/whatever. Life's too short to dwell on bitterness. [I cast that same spell (permanently) on three scribes.]
Dude, I think others here made a bigger deal of it then I.
I was along-time member of an 'art site' (Coolminiornot), and had my painting critiqued by Golden Demon winners (the crème de la crème of the mini-paining world), amongst many others.
I learned to grow some VERY thick skin back then - you need it if you are going to pursue artistic endeavors on the Internet. Besides, I like Therise, and we are usually on the same page.
I think the problem comes in with the dictionary definition of 'grit', which pertains to endearing quality held by a hero-figure, and 'gritty', which is general term often interpreted as meaning 'grungy', or 'down-to-earth'. The two are very similar, and can be the same thing in some cases, but not precisely.
Only one person here ever found precisely the right button to push to get me steamed, and I am still angry for myself for that incident. It was the one and only time I ever reported anyone, EVER. I still regret the reporting, because I feel that they won by me doing so.
Therise didn't even come close (mildly annoyed perhaps, but far from real anger). Life too short to let stuff bother you.
--- Peace |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 15:29:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Friendly advice, MT: learn to cast ignore troll/whatever. Life's too short to dwell on bitterness. [I cast that same spell (permanently) on three scribes.]
Life too short to let stuff bother you.
Precisely.
Besides, indifference speaks louder than anger. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 16:43:42
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This scroll is a very interesting read and I think MT and Therise summed up the problems quite nicely.
There is a difference between the definition of 'grit' and 'gritty' in meaning and in common use.
Look at the movie titled "True Grit".
Look at the differences between the John Wayne version and the more modern remake.
I think the John Wayne version precisely fits the textbook definition of 'grit'. Rooster is a no-nonsense, down to earth, pragmatic character.
The more modern version, however, fits the common use of 'gritty'. Rooster is portrayed as more of a Grey Guard type character.
In my opinion of course....
I very much like the way that Therise described the 1479-era realms as 'post-apocalyptic'. I think that's the best and most accurate description I've yet seen. I've just finished reading two of the Waterdeep novels and The Haunted Lands trilogy and both series made me feel the changed nature of the realms intensely. Perhaps it's because I've spent the last decade dealing with real life 'grit' in Afghanistan, Iraq and before that, the Balkans and Somolia. Perhaps it's the stark contrast between other books depicting the City of Splendors and the way the two I've just finished reading were written. The depiction and feeling of street-level and common Waterdhavians in the current era is far different from the way previous books and modules made the city feel.
After reading some of the current novels, I get the impression that Waterdeep went from the shining jewel of the Sword Coast with lots of possibilities for those wanting a better life, to a city very much like Mogadishu - where you either have money and can afford to live and defend what is yours or, you're struggling for daily survival. Were the street-level elements always there regardless of era? Absolutely, but the government had control of the city and tried suppress those elements in order to make it a place of possibility and commerce - and those elements weren't the main focus of the story being told. The story focused on the heros and their exploits and the heroes were mostly larger than life characters, not the commoner turned forced and reluctant hero by circumstances.
After reading the newer novels, I now feel just like I did when I first flew over areas like Baghdad, Kabul, Sarajevo or Mogadishu. There is a very marked contrast from major cities in other areas of the 'developed' world - where most of the population wasn't struggling just to meet daily needs - to the conditions I saw there. War-torn, dirty, lawless - areas where an otherwise good 'peasantry' was forced to flirt with the difference between what is right and wrong in order to survive or, adopt the 'might makes right' philosophy. And I'm certain that my impression as a helicopter pilot was far different than the impression our ground forces, who were forced to deal with it on a door-to-door walking the streets approach, had of the same conditions. If anything, their impression was even more 'gritty'.
Also, I can't remember who noted it but *applause* on differentiating between the rules/sourcebooks, regardless of edition, and the novels. I've always viewed 'the rules' as the mechanic we use for enjoying the world for which the novels provide the color and flavor, not as being specific to a certain era in realms history. A DM could set a campaign using 2E rules in 1479DR just as easily as they could set the same campaign in 1350DR. IMHO, the 4E rules are a watered-down attempt to attract WoW players back to a pen and paper setting and I dislike the mechanics of them. Fortunately, I can keep playing the mechanics I like, no matter what era they're set in and use the novels as colorful backstory to the story my campaign is telling. It's a win-win situation.
Good Hunting!
Edit: Added Horizontal Rule for clarity. |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
Edited by - Wolfhound75 on 21 Dec 2011 16:45:31 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 16:48:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Friendly advice, MT: learn to cast ignore troll/whatever. Life's too short to dwell on bitterness. [I cast that same spell (permanently) on three scribes.]
Honestly little kitten, Markus knows I'm not insulting him, nor am I intending to insult him. Markus and I are from the old school and have had actual "interactions" with real trolls on other websites, often taking the same side.
Your "indifference" is quite precious, though. *pinches Dennis's cheeks**
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Dude, I think others here made a bigger deal of it then I.
I was along-time member of an 'art site' (Coolminiornot), and had my painting critiqued by Golden Demon winners (the crème de la crème of the mini-paining world), amongst many others.
I learned to grow some VERY thick skin back then - you need it if you are going to pursue artistic endeavors on the Internet. Besides, I like Therise, and we are usually on the same page.
See, Dennis-kins? Thanks Markus, the feeling is mutual. I knew you weren't butthurt, nor was there any intention of crank on my part. (Remember the horrible time three-ish years ago on the WotC forums, though? Just as they were releasing 4E, certain people wanted to literally segregate some posters and censor-ban others? I definitely remember both of us on the same side for that one, along with a lot of good people who sadly don't post any more, sigh).
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I really can't agree with this because magical healing, while present in the D&D rules, isn't as widespread as I belive you think it is. Furthermore, read Baldur's Gate by Philip Athans. Kahlid (supporting character), dies of being dissolved in an ooze less than 100 pages into the book. Xan (another supporting character), dies by decapitation from a spider not 200 pages into the book. Jaheria (main character) dies at the end of the book, however she's resurrected. This instance is only one of two such times this spell has been cast that I've read happening in ALL the realms novels over the past 15 years. Death, for all intent and purposes, is a very permanent condition in the Realms for the 90th-percentile of it's population.
Above you use one definition of gritty as "uncompromising realism", which frankly isn't very possible in ANY Fantasy novel.
Diffan, you've mentioned the novelisation that MUST NOT BE NAMED.
As it happens, though, I agree (somewhat) with what you're saying. I think I said before that some of the earlier Realms had gritty elements (parts of Planescape in particular), but I've pretty much just been talking about the 4E Realms. And it's not just about having death in the books, or -not- having ready magic/healing available. Stark realism involves showing the reader the true ugliness of reality, and Realms fiction has never really gone down that road. Wulfgar's alcoholism came pretty close. And yet it felt wrong even as you read it, incongruous for the Realms. Ultimately, Wulfgar recovered (which probably wouldn't have happened in truly gritty fiction), but even so that brief "brush" with grit has irreperably damaged Wulfgar's character for use in the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
...After reading some of the current novels, I get the impression that Waterdeep went from the shining jewel of the Sword Coast with lots of possibilities for those wanting a better life, to a city very much like Mogadishu - where you either have money and can afford to live and defend what is yours or, you're struggling for daily survival. Were the street-level elements always there regardless of era? Absolutely, but the government had control of the city and tried suppress those elements in order to make it a place of possibility and commerce - and those elements weren't the main focus of the story being told. The story focused on the heros and their exploits and the heroes were mostly larger than life characters, not the commoner turned forced and reluctant hero by circumstances.
I am very, very glad you said this, Wolfhound75! Earlier, Diffan brought up something similar, but you've very nicely encapsulated an important and bigger issue that I think we've not yet discussed.
Gritty elements can exist for the commoner population, and have in the Realms ever since 1E, but truly gritty fiction has more to do with how the protagonists are presented and how they deal with intense realistic situations - not whether background commoners/NPCs have hard or horrible lives. In the Realms, we've always known that life can be incredibly hard for the everyday Joe. Magic, healing, even having helpful friends aren't readily available for the commoner. But the story, what we as the reader get to experience and what we are shown, that's what determines whether or not what you're reading goes into one genre or another. Ultimately, Realms fiction has always been heroic, high fantasy, with uplifting morals and actions that intentionally aren't burdened by the heaviness of a true, gritty reality.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 21 Dec 2011 17:07:06 |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 17:02:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Furthermore, read Baldur's Gate by Philip Athans. Kahlid (supporting character), dies of being dissolved in an ooze less than 100 pages into the book. Xan (another supporting character), dies by decapitation from a spider not 200 pages into the book. Jaheria (main character) dies at the end of the book, however she's resurrected. This instance is only one of two such times this spell has been cast that I've read happening in ALL the realms novels over the past 15 years. Death, for all intent and purposes, is a very permanent condition in the Realms for the 90th-percentile of it's population.
I don't think that meeting a grisly end at the hands of some sort of monster/evil villian or neferious trap is necessarily 'gritty'. I think that's the nature of the job for being a hero, adventurer, and explorer.
Good Hunting! |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 18:28:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Furthermore, read Baldur's Gate by Philip Athans. Kahlid (supporting character), dies of being dissolved in an ooze less than 100 pages into the book. Xan (another supporting character), dies by decapitation from a spider not 200 pages into the book. Jaheria (main character) dies at the end of the book, however she's resurrected. This instance is only one of two such times this spell has been cast that I've read happening in ALL the realms novels over the past 15 years. Death, for all intent and purposes, is a very permanent condition in the Realms for the 90th-percentile of it's population.
I don't think that meeting a grisly end at the hands of some sort of monster/evil villian or neferious trap is necessarily 'gritty'. I think that's the nature of the job for being a hero, adventurer, and explorer.
Good Hunting!
I hear ya, and I think over-all the novel couldn't be considered all gritty. Like Therise says, the Realms touches on the subject quite a few times but never goes full-boat with it. I think this is a good thing overall, yet I'd be happy to read at least one series where it was the intent to make the Realms appear more gritty.
Besides, who dies of Oozes now-a-day? I mean, c'mon! They just sorta.....well let him die and said "Ohh NO! Kahlid!! NO!!! Who want's lunch?" and the same was for Xan. It's gritty because their deaths really had no meaning or even build up, it was just sorta....*BAM* Dead! Move on. And I can see why Therise says that novelization is That Which Shall Not Be Named, due to such a great game and all which such sad, very sad novel elements. It could've been SOOO much better than it was. |
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How "gritty" should the realms be?
