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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 21:09:07
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| HOWEVER: It's important to know your players. No ones going to be disturbed by a little fantasy violence, but some NPC woman being raped by an orc may be too much for them. I know my current batch of players real well, they're my best friends, and I know them to be both mature enough and emotionally undamaged enough to handle such topics. But if I was simply playing with someone at a CON for example, I would be far more cautious. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 00:36:38
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IMHO, both the Realms setting and the D&D ruleset are not "gritty"-oriented. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 02:50:37
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While sexual violence definitely falls into the "gritty" category, I don't think it's necessary in telling a dark/gritty story (in the Realms or otherwise), nor do I see rape being as commonplace in the Realms as it is in our own world. There's a certain element of sexism--of men being in control of women--that just isn't prevalent in the Realms.
I've featured some misogynists in my books, but they've been the exception, rather than the rule. Sexism is pretty weird in the Realms.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 04:09:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
While sexual violence definitely falls into the "gritty" category, I don't think it's necessary in telling a dark/gritty story (in the Realms or otherwise), nor do I see rape being as commonplace in the Realms as it is in our own world. There's a certain element of sexism--of men being in control of women--that just isn't prevalent in the Realms.
I've featured some misogynists in my books, but they've been the exception, rather than the rule. Sexism is pretty weird in the Realms.
Cheers
I'm reminded of an anonymous commenter's theory on why female adventurers are taken seriously:
'Because the female adventurer can collapse a human trachea between her pinky and ring finger?
Tradition steps aside for people who can psyche themselves up a bit, and then knife-hand a hole through a steel door, just as it stood aside for historical women of great ambition, intelligence and power.'
Another noted:
'Because when the females can throw fireballs at your face, you start believing in gender equality pretty damn fast.'
I would think that those things would have encouraged general gender equality to a certain degree. Especially because Faerun has a number of deities who are either female or just not sexist about their clerics. If the gods are as potentially active as they are in the Realms, and that lady in the armour can smite you in [deity]'s name if you try to make a big issue out of her lack of dangly bits, accepting equality becomes the healthiest option.
I can handle misandrist or misogynist cultures when they're depicted as oddities contrasted to the general worldview. What does annoy me is those who insist the whole world should conform to a pseudomedieval gender view in the name of 'realism.'
"We've got dragons, elves, and magic swords. The gods can embody themselves and walk around the land. A sufficiently motivated necromancer can raise an undead army. But women considered equal to men? That just wouldn't be realistic!" |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 05:15:06
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Because of the equality of sexes amongst Elves - the race that was most prominent throughout Faerun's long history - that attitude has effected all other races they have encountered.
Theoretically, of course. We currently have no experience with non-human inter-species interaction, but going by human racial interactions, in almost every circumstance, cultures 'rub off' on one another.
I believe Halflings and Gnomes also practice equality, but I don't think I can really say that about the dwarves, in all honesty - they seem even more 'protective' of their women then humans (with good reason).
Goblinoids don't practice equality from what we have seen, but giants - especially ogres - have been know to be matriarchal on occasion. Dragons seem to be pretty equal (along the sexual axis).
Hmph... odd thought... I wonder if there has ever been a Gay dragon? 
Anyhow, I think all these other cultures - and hundreds more - have effected human perceptions regarding 'the fairer sex'. In the Realms, I would imagine that it would be almost as likely for a female to 'be gritty' (sexually and otherwise) in the realms as it is for males (I think the whole 'Cougar Craze' thats so popular right now was always around in the Realms, for instance, with mature well-to-do woman taking advantage of naive young men).
And Erik, I think your stories have the perfect amount of Grit - I found Meris particularly 'gritty'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Dec 2011 05:15:45 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 08:15:20
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I haven't read Erik's books, but Paul's (arguably) gritty novels are, to me, "too mild," compared to non-FR gritty novels. Not just in bloodbath, but in all things that make a book gritty---sex, depravity, violence, rape, etc. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 14:56:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I haven't read Erik's books, but Paul's (arguably) gritty novels are, to me, "too mild," compared to non-FR gritty novels. Not just in bloodbath, but in all things that make a book gritty---sex, depravity, violence, rape, etc.
Like I said before, I'd rather see it not done than see it done badly.
You might think some books are too mild, but...
Well, I'm going to be frank here, and I'm going to ask you not to patronise me or dismiss my feelings on this particular subject.
Sexual violence is frequently handled poorly in novels; sexual coercion likewise. That's not good. Some people can ignore that more easily than others.
The risk of being slowly turned to stone by an evil wizard in the real world is, ahem... not probable. It can be written as a chilling and horrifying thing in a book regardless.
The risk of having sexual violence inflicted upon me, or other (especially, given the statistical ration) female readers? Much, much higher.
It is a real fear; for some, it may well already be a real and pre-existing experience, with trauma that can be triggered by careless writing.
I am not saying that no-one should ever write about rape. It happens, and this can be acknowledged. However, it does somewhat behoove writers to be mindful of the fact that it can be genuinely hurtful or upsetting if care is not taken. Caution in portraying sensitive topics is a good idea.
It's not something that should be thrown in simply to make a book "gritty."
I hope you understand why it can raise a certain amount of unease; this is not a case of being oversensitive or overemotional. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 15:34:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
There's sense even in what appears to be senseless violence and rape. A woman was raped. After the incident, she shunned physical contact with everyone. The reader would understand if the author would simply mention that the reason for her behavior was because she was brutally raped some years ago. But the reader would most definitely feel for that character when he himself sees what that "brutally" means, when the author gives full account of it. "Show, don't tell." I'm sure you've heard the line. Now, I'm not saying every unpleasantness experienced by every character should be described to the last detail. Only those the author himself/herself wisely judges to be of great importance to character development.
Oh, so only the 'important' ones should be "described to the last detail"? That's what your phrasing tells me. And you know what? That's absurd.
You know, tales that go into every last detail of torture tend to get referred to as 'torture porn.'
You don't need to give every detail to convey the horror of a situation. And in some cases, it's also disgusting and exploitative of a real problem.
Yes, real problem. The part of my last post you ignored. (Well, aside from the request not to patronise me - thanks so much for mansplaining to me! Gosh, my poor female brain just couldn't see the sense in it, but it's all clear now!) |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 16:30:57
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@Dennis: You sound a little blood-thirsty in your tastes. What novels *do* you prefer, in the vein of "gritty"?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And Erik, I think your stories have the perfect amount of Grit - I found Meris particularly 'gritty'.
Why thank you. That was my intention with that character. 
@Lady Shadowflame: Sing it, sister! I am right there with you on your posts.
In terms of realism vs. unbelievable fantasy, there's a certain extent to which we need to find characters relatable. In fact, it's key to telling a good story in any genre.
And while I think questions of gender equality/relations should be extremely relevant (sex, affection, companionship, etc., are all key human motivations), sexism/misogyny is not necessary in a fantasy setting or story. Basically, there is nothing natural, fundamental, biological, or logically necessary about being human that makes men and women unequal.
Sexism is a product of social evolution and culturalization, and not even an end-state. Human culture is (albeit slowly, as always) evolving *away* from sexism and toward equality.
As with other human issues like racism, there are novels that do portray cultural sexism to a purpose, with varying degrees of success. Sometimes, it's to make the society seem more relatable to the reader, which may or may not be useful depending on the story, which I think is an irresponsible use of the concept. Sometimes it's used to address gender issues, which I think is the reason good writers use it. But I don't think it's fundamentally necessary to include in order to tell a good story in a cool setting.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 16:47:05
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Do I, really? Well, you're incorrect. I don't look for gritty novels. Grittiness isn't part of the criteria I have in mind when I buy a book. These are: author, blurb, title, reviews, a sample chapter or two, friends' recommendations. If the book happens to be gritty, so be it. It's the story I'm after. I don't mind blood, rape, violence, whatever. I deal with deaths almost everyday. Nothing makes me squeamish, unless I pretend to be.
If I were to make a rough estimate, I'd say of all the novels I've read so far, only about 2-4% of them can be properly called "gritty." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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LastStand
Learned Scribe
130 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 21:09:07
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@Lady Shadowflame: Well said and some good points raised.
Going into detail and 'showing' the afore mentoined atrocities can quickly make me discard a novel. Even in something as dark and gritty as 'A song of Ice and Fire' they were referenced and never written out in detail - that I can recall.
I would rather have my Forgotten Realms light on the grittyness. |
"Don't. The battlegrounds that you and I have returned from alive are too different."
~ Claymore ch106 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 21:32:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Do I, really? Well, you're incorrect. I don't look for gritty novels.
My mistake, then, though I think it's understandable. You implied that you found FR novels "too mild" for your tastes. What you meant was they were not sufficiently gritty to be called gritty. Eh?
And you didn't answer my question, which was (to rephrase): "What novels DO you consider gritty?"
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 00:48:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Do I, really? Well, you're incorrect. I don't look for gritty novels.
My mistake, then, though I think it's understandable. You implied that you found FR novels "too mild" for your tastes. What you meant was they were not sufficiently gritty to be called gritty. Eh?
And you didn't answer my question, which was (to rephrase): "What novels DO you consider gritty?"
Cheers
Bakker, Erikson, Rothfuss, Cook, Lynch, and Ruckley. Most of their books are gritty. I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but those names first came to mind. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 01:24:05
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Rothfuss, really? Huh. Guess I have rosier memories of that book.
Maybe it's a definitional question. I consider "gritty" to mean that the world is not bright and shining but dirty and damp, where the heroes aren't goody-goods but get stuff done the way real people do (messily). The story is also harsh--people take wounds that linger, bad things happen to good people. (I won't say "evil wins," because that's more "dark" than "gritty," though the two go very well together.) Gritty is more realistic in that sense, though it might be over-the-top in terms of action, stunts, magic, etc.
I'd be interested to see what you thought of my Realms work, which people often consider somewhat gritty, at least some of the time.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 01:41:06
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Oh. Indeed I'm forgetting someone: Weeks. [Light and Brynwyr would be appalled. Hehe].
Given his writing style, when I read the first few chapters, I thought, "Oh, so this is a young adult novel." Then I read the Rat raping Doll Girl and Azoth, and told myself, "Young adult indeed."
On a serious note, while I don't particularly mind grittiness in a book, I wouldn't see it overdone either. By overdone, I mean reading a novelization of the Saw series without the dialogue. That's just plain stupid. And thankfully, I haven't yet encountered anything remotely resembling that. I'm a cautious reader. I do "background check" (sometimes intensively) before sampling a book. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 06:48:41
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Star Wars as opposed to Blade Runner, Planet of the Apes as opposed to Mad Max, Lord of the Rings as opposed to Sword of Truth, and Excalibur vs Braveheart.
And probably the best comparison - original Battlestar Galactica as opposed to the recent re-make. It went from all 'shiney/fuzzy/cute' to pure grunge.
Armor doesn't look like chrome, bad guys aren't easily identified by how ugly they are, and worker-droids are not spiffy-clean and well-mannered - life is dirty, and real heroes got crud under their fingernails. You want to make an omelet, you got to break a few eggs; you want to save a kingdom, you got to break a few heads.
And the blood doesn't wash off so easily - just ask Lady MacBeth. 'Gritty' is when you can see the stains on the characters souls. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 06:56:36
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| I prefer my grit to dirty up motivations and moralities. Sometimes the villain is actually another hero, one who just happens to be driven towards an objective which is detrimental or incompatible with the other. Better yet, neither of these heroes is actually ideal, they both have plenty of blood and skeletons they're trying to conceal (even from themselves) and their heroic goals always involve some sort of tradeoff/price which many people find unacceptable. I suppose perfect grit is well-written drama wherein an anti-hero and anti-villain are essentially undifferentiated, they shift between the role boundaries and "right" and "wrong" depend greatly on how the reader chooses to parse the text. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 23:45:47
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I'm going to buck the trend and say, "Poo on grim and gritty."
I like Forgotten Realms as a place where good and evil are equally impressive. At the end of the day, good is just as cool as evil and is something that should shine ever brighter. I've got enough grim and grittiness in my life and if I want to read "A Song of Ice and Fire" I'll read A Song of Ice and Fire.
I don't need Westeros in my Faerun any more than I need Faerun in my Westeros.
I especially object to the idea that rape would make the setting more believable or enjoyable. It's an overused plot device and, honestly, only makes it harder for female fans to get into the setting. I also don't really find it particularly enjoyable in my games or adventures.
Do I think Grim and Gritty can be done well in the Realms? Yes, I think R.A. Salvatore's new Drizzt novels are the grittiest things the Realms have ever produced and I enjoy them more than the ROTA series (which I felt was way too dark for the Realms).
Still, do I want all of my fiction to have Dahlia's hideous backstory? Heck no. I mostly think the heroes should make Faerun BETTER not fight against the tide. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 17 Dec 2011 23:46:27 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 07:44:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I prefer my grit to dirty up motivations and moralities.
Reinforcing moral ambiguities does not require any amount of grittiness, though it surely helps. The characters' unconventional actions are sometimes more than enough. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 18 Dec 2011 07:45:14 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 08:03:34
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| Actions in the real world can speak for themselves. Actions in a world constructed by narrative require some internalized narrative insights to put them into a meaningful context; ie, the novel must construct with words beyond describing the action itself just why the action has impact. Probably why many of the coolest characters in novels are emo brooding sorts, even though in the real world such people are often despised. All IMHO, of course. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Dec 2011 08:07:16 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 13:46:58
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I believe the Realms have the possibility of being "gritty", but the general flavor of the Realms is significantly less so. This is based on my opinion of Gritty as The Black Company by Glen Cook, R.R Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice, and World War Z by Max Brooks. Each of these novels (and their respective series) are pretty darn gritty with lots of gore and violence. Realms novels often follow a more ligh-hearted path that more times than not leave the main characters and their respective allies alive and well in the end. That's not to say it's a bad thing, far from it really, but it definitly goes against what I'd consider "Gritty".
A Realms gritty novel would involve aspects of what I read in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy and even R.A's Legacy of the Drow series. The first is shock full of combat, violence, gore, and even special characters (thought to have Plot Armor) actually getting their butt whooped. The heavy losses on both the Waterdhavian troops and the Evereskan people was significant and the realization of what war can do was pretty eye-opening to me. The second (R.A's books) falls into the oppressing sort of gritty, where it seems that the PCs are going to fail at any moment and evil is just all incompassing. Reading the Legacy of the Drow series felt (as a reader) suffocating in that it was so dark, dreary, and on-the-edge suspenseful. The last book Passage to Dawn quite literally made me feel as if I had come out of a hellish plane of existance and could finally breathe again. It was a great series, BTW, and I feel that's the sort of emotions R.A. wanted his readers to feel. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 14:01:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmph... odd thought... I wonder if there has ever been a Gay dragon?
Interesting question. Dragons view sexual orientation quite differently from how humans do, I suppose. So yes, it's possible there are gay dragons. Their "gayness" may not even involve sex, just pure, sublime appreciation for and attraction to another dragon of same gender, the kind that's deeper than friendship. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 14:07:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Probably why many of the coolest characters in novels are emo brooding sorts, even though in the real world such people are often despised. All IMHO, of course.
While that may be true to some, definitely not to me. Brooding characters tend to either bore or annoy me, and sometimes both. It's all right to be emo occasionally. Succumbing to sorrow and hopelessness is part of being human. But when it's unnecessarily shown very often (from prologue onwards), then there's no point for me to continue. (Punishing myself is not my cup of tea.) As always, moderation is the key. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 17:45:38
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There is nothing "gritty" about the 4E Realms at all. Nothing. "Gritty" is Lieber's Lankhmar, or earlier Realms/Planescape, where PCs face truly deadly choices in every encounter and a simple knife-fight in a back alley (or a bar fight) can result in quick death.
The 4E Realms is dark, post-apocalyptic fantasy (or post-cataclysm, take your pick), with high saturation of magic.
Now it's of course possible to combine gritty and dark/post-cataclysm, but I haven't seen anything in 4E Realms that truly meets that description.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2011 : 23:00:33
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Hmmm...
I think, thanks to your post Therise, I will coin a new term - 'Faux-Gritty'.
I can think of several examples, but I have to disagree about the 4e Realms. The source books, I concur, relate little in the way of grittiness (or anything else intriguing), but having read a few of the 4e Waterdeep novels, I've never seen the City of Splendors so gritty - it could now give Lankhmar a run for its money (or Sanctuary, or hundreds of others).
As a DM, I love it. As a fan, I can only shake my head sadly.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2011 23:04:54 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2011 : 02:28:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmm...
I think, thanks to your post Therise, I will coin a new term - 'Faux-Gritty'.
I can think of several examples, but I have to disagree about the 4e Realms. The source books, I concur, relate little in the way of grittiness (or anything else intriguing), but having read a few of the 4e Waterdeep novels, I've never seen the City of Splendors so gritty - it could now give Lankhmar a run for its money (or Sanctuary, or hundreds of others).
As a DM, I love it. As a fan, I can only shake my head sadly.
No offense, but I don't think you really understand the term "gritty" if you think the 4E Realms Waterdeep is gritty.
Grit is abrasive, dirty, you'll get a crippling disease from the knife that someone stabs you with in a dark alley. And there aren't any handy cures. Gritty is low-magic, where "there aren't any epic spells here that can plot-device you away" out of real danger. No quickie healing surges when you get your stomach slashed open. Grit means as realistic as possible for the fantasy era.
A "minor" intestinal wound you got in the dark alley knife-fight might start to fester, it might cause you real problems day-to-day, and might kill you in the end; dying face down in that alley while bleeding out, having a little hoodlum steal your boots, and then having rats urinate on you because you make a sudden waking movement, that's gritty. Convoluted machinations between different crime lords can be gritty, IF they are the top of the "food chain" so to speak; portals, magic potions, spells, anything that disturbs or unbalances the story away from realism will also dis-associate the story from grit.
Grit isn't just "dark" or "post-cataclysm" by any stretch. Gritty fantasy involves actual anti-heroes, who have histories of in-your-face violence, pillage, looting, killing, and backstabbing of allies because it was either that or starvation/death. It's a struggle for survival in a world where nearly everything is deadly and a mis-step might mean losing your hand or your life.
The Realms in 4E is dark and post-cataclysm, but the "high fantasy" epic magic and availability of healing (to heroes, not necessarily the general population) to reverse any setbacks completely kill any sense of grit. Dark and ruined fantasy is, as I've said earlier, not necessarily grit.
Martin's Game of Thrones (Song of Ice and Fire) is gritty with heavy regular doses of realism. Lankhmar, that's gritty. Heck, perhaps Greenwood's personal Realms is gritty at times. But the published 4E Realms are not.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 19 Dec 2011 02:36:33 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2011 : 02:38:31
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No offense but gritty is a matter of perspective.
You can't really say, "that's not gritty" and "that is gritty" with any degree of certainty because it's all a matter of perspective. The stuff you say includes a lot of things that aren't NECESSARY to gritty either.
For example, anti-heroes and low magic aren't necessarily any more gritty than heroic characters. Sin City is considered the grittiest thing ever (to the point of parody) and it has several actual heroic types contrasted to the corrupt world. Westeros, for all it being considered super-gritty, has armies of undead and is certainly NOT low magic. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 19 Dec 2011 02:47:07 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2011 : 02:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
No offense but gritty is a matter of perspective.
You can't really say, "that's not gritty" and "that is gritty" with any degree of certainty because it's all a matter of perspective. The stuff you say includes a lot of things that aren't NECESSARY to gritty either.
Thing is, it's really not just a matter of perspective.
Grit involves specific world elements. If they're absent, or countered with something that makes those elements irrelevant, it's not grit.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2011 : 02:48:30
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At the risk of pressing the issue, why do you think that and where did you get that idea?
"Intense and starkly realistic" is the definition of it. Which, honestly, doesn't mean "darker."
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2011 : 02:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
At the risk of pressing the issue, why do you think that and where did you get that idea?
"Intense and starkly realistic" is the definition of it. Which, honestly, doesn't mean "darker."
FFS, if you think I've been saying "grit = dark!" (when I've been arguing AGAINST that), I have no idea how to make things more clear. Honestly.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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How "gritty" should the realms be?
