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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 04:26:35
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I'm running a v3.5 campaign set in the Moonsea. We started with Sons of Gruumsh, and I've mixed in some of the mini-adventures from Mysteries of the Moonsea, including the one involving the Hammer of Vorbyx. With the return of the Hammer, and the imminent rise of a new humanoid kingdom in Thar, I'm now trying to come up with a reasonable number for the population of the humanoids in that area.
I did some calculations, and determined that Thar covers about 16,000 square miles. It's supposed to be wilderness, which rules out an overly dense population. (I'm mean, the ogres are dense, but they're sparse. Get it?)
The only official source I can find is the Elminster's Ecology booklet, The Great Gray Land of Thar. It's rather vague. Settlements of ogres range in size from two to a hundred, while orc tribes number from twelve to a thousand. It says there are "dozens of tribes" of both. That gives me enough leeway to populate the moor with up to 75,000 orcs and ogres, but I'm not sure such desolate area could support them all.
Thoughts?
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 05:54:14
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| If you want to keep canon, then I refer you to GAZ10: The Orcs of Thar. |
[/Ayrik] |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 07:34:51
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| True, GAZ10 is primarily written for a different Thar located on Eberron, I think. Yet it does contain passages explaining how it can be used in the Realms. Written for 1E, I believe, although it's really the setting information you seem to be after. At the least, it's full of ideas. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 08:05:32
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Tribes of Thar
This might help. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 19 Nov 2011 08:07:19 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 10:26:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
True, GAZ10 is primarily written for a different Thar located on Eberron, I think. Yet it does contain passages explaining how it can be used in the Realms. Written for 1E, I believe, although it's really the setting information you seem to be after. At the least, it's full of ideas.
Seeing as Eberron wasn't around until 3.5, you can probably assume that it's not for that setting.  |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 10:27:53
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| On a more helpful note, you might find some information in 3.5 era module Sons of Gruumsh and the sort-of-adventure-path-book Mysteries of the Moonsea. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 17:39:57
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As I mentioned in the OP, I already have Sons of Gruumsh and Mysteries of the Moonsea. I may have overlooked something, but I don't see anything in them about humanoid demographics in the area.
I went back to basics, though, and checked the FRCS. In the demographics for the Moonsea region it says that 10% of the 1,745,280 inhabitants are orcs, while 6% are half-orcs and 2% are ogres. Since the Moonsea region in that source includes the Galena Mts and the area around Zhentil Keep, I still don't get an exact figure for Thar, but it's a starting point.
What I was hoping for, though, rather than pointers to various sources, was some informed speculation on how many hunter-gatherers could survive on 16,000 square miles of moorland. That's about the same area as the Florida Panhandle, but a little shorter and wider. (I think 200 miles long by 80 miles wide was my rough measurement.) Do you think, for example, that 50,000 orcs and 10,000 ogres would be able to live there? Or would that overtax the resources of the place?
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 19:16:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
True, GAZ10 is primarily written for a different Thar located on Eberron, I think. Yet it does contain passages explaining how it can be used in the Realms. Written for 1E, I believe, although it's really the setting information you seem to be after. At the least, it's full of ideas.
Seeing as Eberron wasn't around until 3.5, you can probably assume that it's not for that setting.
I think it was written for the Mystara setting, the default world for Basic D&D. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 20:14:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
I think it was written for the Mystara setting, the default world for Basic D&D.
It was. I'm familiar with the Mystara setting, since it's used by our regular DM, and I've looked at the maps in GAZ10. The place names are all from Mystara: the Broken Lands, Ethengar, Darokin, etc. We're currently gaming in that area, or will be until January when I have to take over for awhile.
Speaking of which, I wonder if anyone has any ideas about how many humanoids could live in the Forgotten Realms area known as Thar... ?
Part of the problem I'm having is with the popular image of orcs as essentially locusts who would strip a place bare of anything edible in pretty short order, and their description as hunter-gatherers. In the official description of the area, there's precious little to hunt or gather, so how do they manage to survive? I don't see 50,000 orcs living on rabbits and voles. |
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 21:05:26
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The original published Thar was in the Mystara setting, which was the Known World/OD&D setting. That is what Orcs of Thar was published for, along with the rest of the supplements in that series - including the halfling (Hin) one written by Ed.
But it does give me an interesting notion - the Orcs used to have a mighty kingdom in Thar, which vanished centuries ago. Considering some of the fallout of the Spellplague (and to a lesser degree the ToT and other FR cataclysms), it wouldn't be inconceivable for the region in Mystara to have been located on Toril at some point.
Think how Ravenloft works - the 'real' region is transferred/copied to the Domains of Dread, while an 'echo' - a ruin usually - is left behind on the world of origin. Like what was done with Evermeet in 4e, or Lolth's domain at the finale of WotSQ. Which means the Thar in FR is the left-behind echo of the real one that is now in Mystara... which might have come from Mystara to begin with. The multiverse is a funny place, and realms are constantly slipping in and out of other planes.
Just a theory, mind you.
It does give me a really great idea for the 5e setting, though. Hey Monte, give me a call.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Nov 2011 17:56:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 03:25:17
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
I think it was written for the Mystara setting, the default world for Basic D&D.
It was. I'm familiar with the Mystara setting, since it's used by our regular DM, and I've looked at the maps in GAZ10. The place names are all from Mystara: the Broken Lands, Ethengar, Darokin, etc. We're currently gaming in that area, or will be until January when I have to take over for awhile.
Speaking of which, I wonder if anyone has any ideas about how many humanoids could live in the Forgotten Realms area known as Thar... ?
Part of the problem I'm having is with the popular image of orcs as essentially locusts who would strip a place bare of anything edible in pretty short order, and their description as hunter-gatherers. In the official description of the area, there's precious little to hunt or gather, so how do they manage to survive? I don't see 50,000 orcs living on rabbits and voles.
They're *big* rabbits!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 04:18:33
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It never ceases to amaze me just how much Markus and I think the same kind of things on such matters:-quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Think how Ravenloft works - the 'real' region is transferred/copied to the Domains of Dread, while an 'echo' - a ruin usually - is left behind on the world of origin.
Aye. In 2e, the actual region was almost always pulled from the particular Material Plane with a nasty mist-like-void occupying the area where the region previously resided. There were however also instances of duplicate realms being crafted by the Dark Powers [none from FR though]... the decision itself was largely at the whim of the DPs themselves.
In 3e RL... the fact that parts of Ravenloft were taken from other settings is largely presented as a "myth" in most books... but each myth has subtle facts that, provided you know enough about the original setting the area was removed from, you can pretty much guess where it originated. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 05:51:41
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| The idea does seem oddly familiar. <ahem> |
[/Ayrik] |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 10:21:44
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There is an easy fix for the food - insert a few Deepspawn in the area that are spewing forth goats etc and you have a variable food source that allows them to survive (and perhaps thrive). I would say that the deepspawn are the survivors of those who were driven out from the hillsfar/northern cormanthyr woods area centuries ago.
Issue 141 of dragon magazine has an excellent series of article on playing humanoids in AD&D, just give the orcs in the Thar the 'Iron Stomach' abnormality and it makes their range of food even wider
"Iron stomach: An iron stomach-allows the owner to eat bad food, carrion, rats, rot grubs, or anything that might be remotely edible with no ill effects"
I have always seen orcs as consumers of anything and that their stomach physiology allows them to extract every last ounce of protein and vitamin from anything they eat.
Re the Thar: lets assume its a sub tundra environment, so its tough in the winter but easier in the summer. Lets assume that a mass migration of animals arrives in spring for breeding and fattening up before it 'flies' south for the winter. So you just need massive flocks of geese to fly north for the summer and massive herds of deer that come south for the winter from the completely frozen lands north of the Thar to graze.
One more thought, perhaps the orcs of Thar have the ability to enter a limited form of hibernation in the winter, surviving on their fat reserves and seeing them through the really tough couple of months when no hunting is possible?
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2011 : 02:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
"Iron stomach: An iron stomach-allows the owner to eat bad food, carrion, rats, rot grubs, or anything that might be remotely edible with no ill effects"
I have always seen orcs as consumers of anything and that their stomach physiology allows them to extract every last ounce of protein and vitamin from anything they eat.
I like that idea, thanks.
quote:
Re the Thar: lets assume its a sub tundra environment, so its tough in the winter but easier in the summer. Lets assume that a mass migration of animals arrives in spring for breeding and fattening up before it 'flies' south for the winter. So you just need massive flocks of geese to fly north for the summer and massive herds of deer that come south for the winter from the completely frozen lands north of the Thar to graze.
That's another interesting idea. I had been considering the possibility that maybe the orcs spend the winter in caverns in the Galenas, and migrate down to the moorland during spring. An idea like this would help motivate that. Thanks again.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2011 : 16:41:09
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As an aside, I believe it was Ed (but it may have been elsewhere) that said dragons could eat ANYTHING, including rocks, and derive sustenance from them, but prefer to eat organic substances, usually ones that are still kicking and screaming.
So I suppose a dragon would have the 'Mithril Stomach' feat.
Anyhow, I would hazard to guess that dragons, being powerful, primordial creatures in their own right, can literally ingest the 'life force' itself from anything, and since everything on Toril - even inorganic substances - have at least some, this is how the dragons feed. Ed has told us that the "Weave is Life", and since the Weave permeates everything, I think there should be some correlation between it and one of D&D's most iconic creatures.
More game theory, and nothing canon... I just love to speculate.
And just to bring this back around, the Orcs may have a similar evolutionary adaption. On the other hand, all goblinoids are consummate scavengers, and they are not above cannibalism during very hard times. Portals are yet-another way external food-sources could inadvertently 'wander' into desolate regions (and I believe that was another point Ed has made in the past). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Nov 2011 16:45:47 |
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Tarloc
Acolyte
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2011 : 04:56:47
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| great info. im running a monster quest featuring the black circle in the area. group of monster pc's establishing control of moonsea north. anyone know where new verdigris lies? cant find on any map. |
"hey, you just rolled two natural twenties!"
"is that a touchdown?" |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 14:59:08
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Hello everybody!!
I think this highly interesting as well... as many will know I have a slight "interest" in Humanoid activity in the realms - although by far not as well sourced as many in these halls.
two things to mention from my side:
- the population here indicates only Ogres and Orcs - various other, quite fast reproducing races as- exactly ;) - goblinkind, and also kobolds not mentioned yet.
goblinkin is mentioned in Tribes of Tahr, and I am sure I have heard of Kobold canon in or near the galenas border to Thar.
is there any canon - maybe in Elminsters writings / ecologies to big deer herds which could suport pops of that size?
- @ markustay: in the original publishing, was it an orc kingdom really that was mentioned in Thar, for all information I got so far it has been an ogre kingdom. would love update on this. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 15:04:01
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| Brian and I talked a little bit about Thar in Monument of the Ancients in Dungeon #170. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 18:42:39
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In the Thar supplement that came with the Elminster's Ecologies box, it is mentioned that BOTH the Orcs and Ogres claim to have been 'in-charge' at some point in the past, but the only hard evidence presented dictates that the Ogres are correct.
In my own personal musings, I assume the Ogrish Kingdom of Thar used quite a few mercenaries from Vastarr(sp?), a contemporary of theirs. When the Ogrish kingdom fell, the orcs (who may have been at least partly responsible for the fall) took over, which would explain why we have two separate versions of the account (people prefer to remember the parts that make them look best).
Then the Orc kingdom of Thar was short-lived, because it was supplanted by the 'People of the Black sails', who were probably somehow connected to the Dark Three. Ergo, the Orcs did not get to enjoy their 'overlordship' for long.
Thats the best I can do, without any sources in front of me. There may be some discrepancies with the timeline, but thats the gist of it (in my own musings, which are only based on canon).
Bear in mind that those Ogres were superior to the modern ones - more along the lines of the Icespire Ogres, which were detailed in Giantcraft.
Where the NON-FR product Orcs of Thar fits into all of this, I do not know. I would imagine that (maybe) Thar was originally an Orcish land, and one that was fairly advanced (by Goblinoid standards), which somehow got shunted unto another world (or merely returned home). That would mean we had an advanced Orcish kingdom (perhaps related to that city discovered in the Drizzt novel, Baffenburg), which fell or disappeared, and then Ogres moved-in from the north (because of the encroaching ice), and then they in-turn used Orcs from Vastarr (which may have been a survivor-state of the earlier Thar kingdom), who later took-over from the Ogres, returning Thar to Orcish control (thus further convoluting the history of the region, which helps us given the contradictory evidence).
There was also a Gnollish presence at some point, which probably dates further back in time then the more recent Ogrish Thar, perhaps to the period when the Orcs first controlled the region. Conversely, the Gnolls may have been something related to the People of the Black Sails (they may have BEEN the people of the black sails!). Then again, the Flinds may just be a vestigial group from ancient Urgnarash (GHotR, pg.8).
Also, Bane looks like he has some Orcish Blood, so it makes some sense he was from this region, given the mixture of evil peoples - both Goblinoid and human - that have history in the Moonsea North. There may be a lot of human blood in the Orcish tribes of Thar (which may give them a bit of an edge over the other humanoids in the area). Then the People of the Black Sails could have just been the Orc kingdom itself, under the leadership of Bane, the Dark Three, and the smarter Half-Orcs (it may have even been an Apartheid situation with the 'halfs' ruling over the rest, like we had with the Crinti in Dambrath).
Hmmmmm... perhaps Grey Orcs are the result of human crossbreeding... or maybe Green (Mountain) Orcs are the result of Goblinoid crossbreeding (or both, or neither... its fun to speculate). If I had to pick, I'd say Grey was the natural coloration, and goblinoid blood accounts for the greenish ones (because the Green ones are more feral). That means humans have very little to do with the various shades of orc, aside from direct descendents (Half-Orcs).
And somehow, this thread made another piece of my Fey lore fall into place (the Fey also had some presence in that region at some point). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Dec 2011 18:51:10 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2011 : 20:39:53
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thanks for this as usual very detailed and precise answer, Markustay.
All I can add is the info that the ogres of this kingdom were ruled by ONI / Ogre Mages, and the standard ogres were used as cheap labor.
I have so far not found any evidance of the Orc Kingdom in the Thar region, but I recall, also not having sources here right now, that this might have been a giant kingdom also back in time.
but coming back to the original question, is this region really capable of supporting these high numbers of inhabitants without high starvation levels, for with this numbers in ogres and orcs, there wouldbe roughly 75.000 or more humanoids living in the thar region - that is quite a number to sustain just from hunting and gathering and the occasional raid.
looking forward to your reply ;) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 02:57:06
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If anything, I think the Ogre kingdom would have been the last remnant of a survivor-state of Ostoria, possibly Jhothûn.
I think there were at least two Ostoria's - one truly ancient, and one much more recent (maybe a thousand years, at most). The original empire was destroyed by the Great Glacier, but there were many smaller kingdoms (belonging to the various giant sub-groups) that called themselves Ostoria for thousands of years, and Jhothûn was one of them. Ogres were always subjugated by the Giants, but as the giants power waned, their minions (the Giant-Kin) could have easily carried on with their own versions of Ostoria.
So, think of The Moonsea North as a region that was contested by goblinoids, Ogres, Orcs, and Gnolls (and in the past, in D&D, all were considered goblinoids). After the fall of Ostoria, and with the encroaching glacier, the habitable regions would have been fiercely fought over - Humans are a fairly recent addition to the region. Many, many kingdoms may have risen and fallen, and humans would be none the wiser.
As for food, thats simple. The glacier only began melting recently (in the past couple of centuries), and Vassa and Damara are really new editions to the map. The entire northern region is a boggy, swampy mess. COLD swamps, that freeze-over most of the year, with treacherous-thin ice, and all sorts foul creatures living in and around them. What would appear to be a forbidding 'no-Mans land' to the untrained (human) eye, is really just a different kind of ecosystem. In a fantasy setting, we have so many more possibilities, from cold-adapted reptiles, to burrowing monstrosities, to vicious (and intelligent) amphibians, to all sorts of flying frights.
A place where the Leucrotta tell stories to their young on cold winter nights.
A region that would not be found desirable by humans and demi-humans is precisely the sort of region that so many other creatures would. What we would deem 'desolate' or 'uninhabitable', others would call home. Don't think of Thar as empty - think of it as a land of many secrets, and places to hide. Most of Australia is such a place, and life has found a way to thrive regardless; the rodents of Thar have probably evolved into thousands of different niches (including flying, swimming, etc).
As for references, in the The Great Gray Land of Thar (Elminster's Ecologies box), on page 31 it discusses how the Orcs also claim to have a Kingdom. The rest of the supplement has some little history about Tharkul and his Ogres, but the Orcs only have their legends -
quote:
"The Orcs claim that they too controlled powerful kingdoms in years gone by. The ogres were not their masters, the orcs say, but their allies, with the orcs serving as faithful and brave mercenaries. After the ogre kingdom fell, of course, the orcs sought to regain the territory their god Gruumsh promised would be theirs. The orcs laid claim to large tracts of territory formerly belonging to the ogres, and enslaved the few goblin tribes living in the region."
Directly from that source. I don't just make this crap up - its all based on what little canon we have. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2011 15:53:52 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2011 : 14:12:21
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Hehe, understood ;)
I just say, you are way better informed in these things than I am....
What I wouldbe interested in is, where do you get all the info from all the eastern regions of faerun, except kara-tur.
i have never seen any sourcebooks about these regions, or did i miss anything serious here?
regarding your view about Thar and the economical system ir reasonable.
it would also explain why there are no hordes etc. coming out of this region, simply for the area does not allow huge increase in populations, and this in addition to all the infight keeps them at bay quite good. |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 15:22:40
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| Have you picked up on the whole thin barrier between the elemental planes in Thar thread that's running, but not stated, through all the information that's out there? |
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Humanoids of Thar
