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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 19:21:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Lore on how to create flying cities without using mythallars. [Perhaps by leashing air elementals with unbreakable bindings, or something grander.]
What other methods would be viable for creating a floating city? Would this be possible through psionics? Maybe even some of Gonds technology?
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 22:07:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
[quote]
What other methods would be viable for creating a floating city? Would this be possible through psionics? Maybe even some of Gonds technology?
I don't know what's made me think of it, but didn't 2e have some lore on either Cloud or Storm Giants living in cloud cities/castles or something like that? |
Edited by - Farrel on 22 Oct 2011 22:07:49 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 22:13:48
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The cloud giants were once able to create cloud palaces through rune magic.
I am not so certain about psionics. Perhaps some mythallar-like device powered by a hundred illithids and human psionicists. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 22 Oct 2011 22:41:02 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 22:22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The cloud giants were once able to create cloud palaces through rune magic.
I am so certain about psionics. Perhaps some mythallar-like device powered by a hundred illithids and human psionicists.
In FR9 The Bloodstone Lands one of the adventure ideas mentioned a "cloud over Suncatcher Mountain in Vaasa. Way back in the day as a preteen I sent RA Salvatore snail mail about it which he kindly responded to. There is indeed a floating cloud giant castle there according to Mr. Salvatore. If anyone is interested I'll type in the important parts of the letter here. I certainly saved it! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 22:54:59
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The 2e Encyclopedia Magica had two different entires for cloud castles (appropriately enough, under Castle, Cloud. Each was built in a separate way.
The first involved LOTS of wizard magic. The short version is:
* Summon 16 HD air elemental to shape the cloud
* Cast wish and control weather to lock that shape permanently
* (optional) Cast wish to lock the cloud in one location
* Cast wall of force, followed by permanency to create the solid base to build upon. Repeat step as many times as needed to create enough space for desired castle
* Cast wish to lock all the walls of force together
* Cast wish, reverse gravity, and permanency so the cloud will support any amount of weight
* Build castle
* Cast one last wish to tie everything together once castle is complete
Keep in mind that this was in 2e, where wishes cost you 5 years of life, and permanency a point of constitution. So if you were doing it yourself, you're looking at at least 20 years of aging and most of your constitution. I'd imagine a lot of wizards looking to do this would investigate something like the priest's Blood Link spell (Volo's Guide to All Things Magical) to take the constitution from another.
The second version of a cloud castle was based on warring storm gods. Basically, any cloud that got giant god blood in it (and there are plenty, considering what a fractious bunch that group is) never fully dissipates. Plus, it already is solid, with a weight capacity of 50 pounds/square foot (so a 40' thick cloud supports 20,000 pounds). It is not, however a proper shape to build upon. So:
* Find a cloud with god blood in it (cloud giants can help)
* Shape the cloud using fog cutters and fog tongs (think giant-shaped versions of sheep shears and ice tongs). Landscape, if desired.
* Use giant-sized dredges and buckets to pull up earth and water, arrange to taste
* Find a ready source of stone, tether cloud, quarry stone and lift to build castle.
* Wander off to enjoy the raiding lifestyle!
Hope this helps. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 22:55:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
In FR9 The Bloodstone Lands one of the adventure ideas mentioned a "cloud over Suncatcher Mountain in Vaasa. Way back in the day as a preteen I sent RA Salvatore snail mail about it which he kindly responded to. There is indeed a floating cloud giant castle there according to Mr. Salvatore. If anyone is interested I'll type in the important parts of the letter here. I certainly saved it!
I'd like to see it, if it isn't too much trouble, please 
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
The 2e Encyclopedia Magica had two different entires for cloud castles (appropriately enough, under Castle, Cloud. Each was built in a separate way.
The first involved LOTS of wizard magic. The short version is:
* Summon 16 HD air elemental to shape the cloud
* Cast wish and control weather to lock that shape permanently
* (optional) Cast wish to lock the cloud in one location
* Cast wall of force, followed by permanency to create the solid base to build upon. Repeat step as many times as needed to create enough space for desired castle
* Cast wish to lock all the walls of force together
* Cast wish, reverse gravity, and permanency so the cloud will support any amount of weight
* Build castle
* Cast one last wish to tie everything together once castle is complete
Keep in mind that this was in 2e, where wishes cost you 5 years of life, and permanency a point of constitution. So if you were doing it yourself, you're looking at at least 20 years of aging and most of your constitution. I'd imagine a lot of wizards looking to do this would investigate something like the priest's Blood Link spell (Volo's Guide to All Things Magical) to take the constitution from another.
The second version of a cloud castle was based on warring storm gods. Basically, any cloud that got giant god blood in it (and there are plenty, considering what a fractious bunch that group is) never fully dissipates. Plus, it already is solid, with a weight capacity of 50 pounds/square foot (so a 40' thick cloud supports 20,000 pounds). It is not, however a proper shape to build upon. So:
* Find a cloud with god blood in it (cloud giants can help)
* Shape the cloud using fog cutters and fog tongs (think giant-shaped versions of sheep shears and ice tongs). Landscape, if desired.
* Use giant-sized dredges and buckets to pull up earth and water, arrange to taste
* Find a ready source of stone, tether cloud, quarry stone and lift to build castle.
* Wander off to enjoy the raiding lifestyle!
Hope this helps.
I think this is what I was thinking of, it was a long time back...
Thanks Hoondatha
Edit: Just had another thought about Flattery, in The Wyvern's Spur, he had a flying fortress (not the aeroplane, a castle) filled with undead. |
Edited by - Farrel on 22 Oct 2011 23:13:17 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 23:38:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Lore on how to create flying cities without using mythallars. [Perhaps by leashing air elementals with unbreakable bindings, or something grander.]
What other methods would be viable for creating a floating city? Would this be possible through psionics? Maybe even some of Gonds technology?
I'd say its a craft wondrous items item, but it would have some hefty cost and spell requirements. I'm thinking requiring castings of solid fog, wall of stone, transmute rock to mud, wall of force, Reverse Gravity, permanency, limited wish, and control weather. Not sure of what the cost would be, and of course, that's just giving you a base to work from. You'd still need to haul in/conjure the earth to build your castle, etc... I'm thinking that the size of the flying city would heavily adjudicate the cost (i.e. a cloud just big enough to support a single 20 ft-radius 3-story round tower that has an entrance to a permanent mordenkainen's magnificent mansion (or a keyed portal to a hidden lair) will be much less expensive than one which holds a entire flying citadel. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 01:57:50
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I'm sure spelljammer helms might be adapted to hovering cityworks. Lots of them working in tandem. Or maybe just one unusually tremendous helm. I'm sure the arcane could devise something suitable, for the right price. Helms wouldn't be quite as convenient as a mythallar because they constantly draw from a magical power source when operating, usually a mage's mental focus or some kind of magic-burning furnace, other more sinister helm devices exist. Imagine an entire floating city which requires an endless supply of mage-pilots or magical items to remain aloft.
The magical mechanisms which power Halruaan skyships might be used instead. Or perhaps a city floating on material from the elemental plane of air.
Note that storm giants have some sort of cloud cities, accomplishing such construction through methods unknown to me. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Oct 2011 01:59:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 05:39:21
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If a way could be found to make stone weightless or even bouyant, then a city could be readily built upon it.
Instead of using gobs of magic to lift up something heavy, use what I would imagine would be less magic to make the heavy thing weightless. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 06:54:29
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I'm often been intrigued by the EBERRON-esque binding of certain types of [re: air] elementals. Though, for flying cities, I suppose this would be dependent upon the size of the city itself. Multiple bindings of a number of air elementals strategically placed around the city would probably solve the problem of weight-lifting for large-ish towns or villages.
Something on the scope of Waterdeep, perhaps, would require more arcane methods -- mythallars being the most obvious choice, uniquely crafted mythals, or perhaps airjamming helms that function in much the same way as a spelljamming helm, but lack the Wildspace-travelling component of their design.
I've actually been tinkering with an elemental-binding idea for a floating city that binds the greater power of an air-elemental lord, or, perhaps, an avatar of Chan of the Elemental Plane of Air, for motive power.
Drawing motive force for a floating city from the Elemental Plane of Air offers up all kinds of cool options, though. I'll be digging through 2e's The Inner Planes when I get back to Perth.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 07:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm often been intrigued by the EBERRON-esque binding of certain types of [re: air] elementals.
Indeed. In The Dragon Below Trilogy by Don Bassingthwaite, an air elemental was used to power a ship owned by a noble house. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 09:09:50
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Well, the concept of elemental-binding on Eberron is far more integrated than was indicated in that trilogy.
In fact, there's an entire system set-up for DMs to creatively explore this core component of the setting, and use it for just about everything.
For example, the city of Sharn, on the world of Eberron, is connected to the plane of Syrania, which grants significant portions of the cityscape with flight and near-permanent forms of levitation.
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Edited by - The Sage on 23 Oct 2011 09:12:14 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 11:55:39
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quote:
Wooly Rupert
If a way could be found to make stone weightless or even bouyant, then a city could be readily built upon it.
Instead of using gobs of magic to lift up something heavy, use what I would imagine would be less magic to make the heavy thing weightless.
The problem with that approach is that everything in the city (inhabitants included) would need to be weightless. A single visitor weighing 100lbs would start to sink the weightless city ... unless the entire city bulk still has wind-resistance, which would make it randomly blow around like a big hot air balloon (until finally caught in some sort of hurricane storm or freakish "permanent" deadwind zone).
Alloy some elemental air into those metals to reduce their weight, and use them to forge massive (yet nearly weightless) chains and shackles worn by a horde of unhappily leashed air elementals. Start whipping those genies. Cast megavariations of lighten load on city masonry. Use psionic powers of body equilibrium on every inhabitant. Build the entire city around a permanent sky-borne gate to elemental air ... so many possibilities. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 13:21:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If a way could be found to make stone weightless or even bouyant, then a city could be readily built upon it.
Like the Sky Realm in The Death Gate Cycle? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 15:48:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
If a way could be found to make stone weightless or even bouyant, then a city could be readily built upon it.
Instead of using gobs of magic to lift up something heavy, use what I would imagine would be less magic to make the heavy thing weightless.
The problem with that approach is that everything in the city (inhabitants included) would need to be weightless. A single visitor weighing 100lbs would start to sink the weightless city ... unless the entire city bulk still has wind-resistance, which would make it randomly blow around like a big hot air balloon (until finally caught in some sort of hurricane storm or freakish "permanent" deadwind zone).
Alloy some elemental air into those metals to reduce their weight, and use them to forge massive (yet nearly weightless) chains and shackles worn by a horde of unhappily leashed air elementals. Start whipping those genies. Cast megavariations of lighten load on city masonry. Use psionic powers of body equilibrium on every inhabitant. Build the entire city around a permanent sky-borne gate to elemental air ... so many possibilities.
So make it bouyant, as I suggested. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 15:50:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If a way could be found to make stone weightless or even bouyant, then a city could be readily built upon it.
Like the Sky Realm in The Death Gate Cycle?
Ah, yes, the coralite of Arianus is a good example.
In the Vision of Escaflowne anime, they had floating rocks they used for flying ships. Heating the rocks made them more bouyant. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 16:01:13
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In Sky Realm, the conclusion to the Crystal Doors Trilogy by Kevin J. Anderson and his wife, Rebecca Moesta, a gigantic genie literally scooped an entire city and lifted it to air. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 03:00:52
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| I don't recall all of the details off hand (I'm trying to recall where in the book it describes everything), but Sandstorm has some insight into how the structures in Upper Calimport stay afloat. It involves using blocks of crystalized air from the Elemental Chaos, mined from the cliffs of Khamsin. I know that from there it involved some type of magic to bind everything and a foundation stone is critical to holding it all together (the plan to bring one down involved destroying the Foundation Stone). The book seems to talk about individual buildings rather than a whole city (the collective floating buildings are referred to as Upper Calimport), but it might be worth considering as an option. I do not recall the book going into detail about specific spells though. Most of the buildings are in a fixed position, but the main one in the book is somewhat mobile. The author, Christoper Rowe, has answered my questions in the past on here so it might be worth PMing him for details if you want to pursue this route. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 10:11:47
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In Ptolus there's an inverted pyramid held aloft by a stone that has negative weight, but I'm not convinced this works with gravity.
Other options is to use lots of immovable rods and Tenser's floating disc's, or make that levitating spell from Shining South permanent. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 10:57:43
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Perhaps a thousand huge flying constructs [like shadowstuff-infused metal dragons] that would literally [and tirelessly] keep a city afloat. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 14:06:13
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| Some of the ideas on here seem infinitely more complicated than maintaining a mythellar |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 15:15:15
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Some of the ideas on here seem infinitely more complicated than maintaining a mythellar.
Brilliant minds are never contended with anything. They will always try to see things in as many angles possible and keep on inventing and re-inventing till their juices run dry. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 08:42:20
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Immovable rods can support 8,000 pounds apiece, or 4 tons. You could literally pin your city to the sky with enough immovable rods.
Of course, the spell used to create immovable rods is just levitate. So no reason you couldn't create masterwork buildings and enchant them with levitate.
Your city could be modular, with individual houses, rooms, decks, towers, etc. lashed together with chains or rope bridges.
Giantcraft had information about the runes that held cloud giant structures aloft. That method was always fascinating to me.
I had once speculated that the Aearee wove similar runes into the branches and roots of trees in order to levitate groves or even whole forests into the sky.
The Shining South book had information about flying ships, I see no reason that that technology could not be adapted to residences.
There is also Spelljammer technology, which, though usually used to fly through wildspace, could be adapted for use in a flying city.
Soarwhales are colossal whales that swim through the air. If you could breed them really, really large, you could maybe build structures on their backs. A whole school of them could make up a city. Alternatively, the buildings could be hung beneath the soarwhales. Like in "Up." Or the cities could be made out of very light materials, like netting, or yurt-like tents, or some kind of tensegrity structure.
Cloud Rays are another type of flying creature from Monster Manual 2, they are colossal manta rays that fly through the sky.
I'm not sure what baloon or dirigible technology is available to Realmsfolk, but surely there must be alchemical gasses that can be harnessed that are lighter than air. Alternatively, what if you could catch an air elemental and put him in a big baloon? You could suspend structures from dirigibles. A whole network of dirigibles could make a city.
How about dirigibles that are constructs? Giant but thin metal shells in the shape of silver whales or fish or bumblebees that are hollow, filled with loft gas, and animated so that they swim through the air and automatically compensate for winds and downdrafts and such.
The dragon Valamaradace had a vast floating lair that hovered above Silverymoon. I don't recall if the technology used to create it was ever revealed. I think she just found it there. But its secrets might lend themselves to creating other such structures.
Then of course, there are all those sky motes floating about. You could use those to build cities, or at least a floating fortress.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 09:10:32
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One may also use etherium , a rare metal that channels and amplifies energy to a considerable degree. A simple levitation spell cast on it could go a long way. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 22:13:03
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Some of these suggestions are fantastic. In some cases though I wonder how many points of strength it would take to hold a city or castle aloft. It might even be worth calculating at some point. I could even see holding the place stable in strong winds if it were weightless to take quite a bit. Going to need some elder elementals there!
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
In FR9 The Bloodstone Lands one of the adventure ideas mentioned a "cloud over Suncatcher Mountain in Vaasa. Way back in the day as a preteen I sent RA Salvatore snail mail about it which he kindly responded to. There is indeed a floating cloud giant castle there according to Mr. Salvatore. If anyone is interested I'll type in the important parts of the letter here. I certainly saved it!
I'd like to see it, if it isn't too much trouble, please
Of course!
quote:
RA Salvatore said
The cloud over Suncatcher (pick a mountain, any mountain) is home to a cloud giant king, Cumulonimbus and his wife, Cirrostratus. I detailed the place in a story for an anthology called Halflings, Hobbits, Warrows and Weefolk for Warner Books. Of course, since it wasn't TSR, I had to change the the location and characters (this was originally a Drizzt and Wulfgar story), but the place where Bags and Homer end up is pretty much what I had in mind for that cloud over Suncatcher.
Cool eh? I never did get my hands on a copy of that novel.
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 22:53:28
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Thanks Seethyr!
I like the names of the two Cloud Giants, very fitting indeed, and compared to some of the names that R A Salvatore comes up with they are very appropriate.
I had trouble with some of his naming conventions... Berg'inyon is my biggest gripe... all I could think of whenever I read his name was Beef Casserole.
Kudos to Bob for taking the time to reply |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 02:59:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
Thanks Seethyr!
I like the names of the two Cloud Giants, very fitting indeed, and compared to some of the names that R A Salvatore comes up with they are very appropriate.
I had trouble with some of his naming conventions... Berg'inyon is my biggest gripe... all I could think of whenever I read his name was Beef Casserole.
Kudos to Bob for taking the time to reply
No problem!
I can't tell you how excited I was as a kid to receive a letter from him (actually got three responding to questions from his novels).
Out of all the suggestions above, I think the gods-blood infused clouds would make sense for cloud giant castles specifically. I don't think the mythallars would work for them because there isn't (at least that I know of) any major connection between cloud giants and the Netherese.
Gray, I am VERY interested in those aeree runes as well if you have any more information on them. |
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Edited by - Seethyr on 26 Oct 2011 03:00:45 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 07:58:44
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Checkout my article in the Candlekeep Compendium Volume VII at this link here: http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_VII.zip
The article has info on various Aearee methods for creating flying habitations. The information about runes appears on p.22.
Different Aearee flocks used different methods to achieve similar ends.
Also see this thread: The Aearee: Secrets of the Avian Creator Race My post on June 10, 2009, had some thoughts about Aearee flying technologies.
Mod edit: Tweaked the coding to make it pretty. |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Oct 2011 11:23:20 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 07:39:15
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| Thanks, try as I might, I can never remember how to embed links properly like that. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 08:34:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Thanks, try as I might, I can never remember how to embed links properly like that.
Simply follow this method, friend Gray:-
[URL=*Insert URL Here*]*Insert Linking Name Here*[/URL] -- just replace each instance of * with " and you'll have your 'pretty' code for the link. 
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 09:25:05
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| Here's a link to this scroll. Use the Reply with Quote option to view the code syntax. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Oct 2011 09:27:48 |
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Topic |
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Flying Cities
