| Author |
 Topic  |
|
MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Dec 2003 : 06:20:50
|
Ok, I had no real idea where to put this so eventually I settled on chat, and am now roosting.
So I read Elminster: Making of a mage two days ago (yay me). Thought to myself not to bad at all. Quite enjoyed it. But then I remembered the books about Mystra dying and being replaced by Midnight and I remember reading I think it was in Elminster in Hell, where Midnight feels bad about Mystra's relationship withe Elminster and erases all memory of their um.... whoopee experience.
It occurred to me then that Midnight and Mystra have totally different personalities. And to be frank, I dont really like Midnight that much. Mystra was a lot cooler I think, a little bit more mysterious. Midnight comes across as trying to fill boots too big for her, if you know what I mean.
So yeah, that's what I wanted to hear from everyone else. What do you guys think about her change? For the better, for the worse?
|
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2003 : 07:18:48
|
Well, in a "real-world" sense, probably not. But she'll gain in experience. And in the sense of a story, it opens up all sorts of new things. After all, without an experienced Deity of All Magic watching, Shar gets a freer reign with her now-revealed Shadow Weave.
And also, suddenly, arcane spellcasters have opportunities for . . . mischief.  Not much, since the major "rules" were hard-set into the Weave (such as the ninth-level spell limitation), but you have to wonder where that itibity bit of freedom from the ever-watching Mystra might take certain unscrupulous wizards . . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
 |
|
|
The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2003 : 09:15:56
|
Excellent!! Someone Sees!!! FINALLY!
Midnight was never deserving of worship in the first place!!!
( Yes, I am talking with very little prior knowledge BUT, I atleast have read the Avatar trilogy thus where Midnight goes to godhood). Truthfully, there just was something that never really sat well with me in the Avatar Trilogy about the main characters. In the beginning I liked all of them but as their tales went on... I grew to loathe them. In the final book I began cheering for Sneakabout...
Let me Clarify. It started good. Cyric was the kick-arse take no prisoners thief, which I have no qualms about, but he changed. He went and got all soft and mushy on Midnight THEN became a spoiled brat when he did not get his way. A stupid man became an equally stupid god, when while having a good goal (overthrowing all other gods ), he lacks the ability to really sculpt a credible plan.
Kelemvor was to be a great one as well. The fact that he was a suffering paladin, a man who wanted to do good but alas, could not because of a messed up family curse, I like Kelemvor the longest, and in some ways still do... Alas, he becomes the subject of my loathing by being the unmoving deity who punishes the false and Faithless (yes... I'm still on that kick). BUT he still has potential
Adon was a fop to begin with, a fop during and a fop after. I truthfully liked him in 'The Curse of Tegea' in 'Realms of Valor' but that was the extent. There he had seemed to grow up a little. His following of Sune ( a vain that foolish deity to begin with) marked him for me. His idiotic silence during the... the.... how else shall it be put, ludicrous trial that the fools of the dale put up was daft to say the least ( said trial still has me hoping that the Zhents wipe the dales from the face of Faerun, at least under Zhentish rule such mistakes will not be made). I just loath the man... I can't put it any other way...
And finally the star of the topic Midnight. I agree with MuadDib, she seems to be trying to fill shoes way too big for her. Let us commence the midnight bashing!!!
To begin, what fool, after seeing the Goddess of magic be obliterated (which means that Mystra, was as arrogant as to be believed before had, I mean what part of "no return until the tables of Fate are restored" did she not understand? What, did she think she was special or what?! Huzzah for Helm and his glorious Victory!*ahem*) would continue on some innane quest to retrieve the tablets of fate with no knowledge of a reward? Foolish to say the least. He reactions through the entire trilogy leaves something to be desired. Such selflessness I cannot believe (perhaps it is only my experiences within a merc party and my own greedy ideals that jade my vision ). But the larger flaw is that she is trying to be something she is not. She is not Mystra, she is not Mystryl, she is MIDNIGHT. Godhood really hasn't changed WHO she is, only WHAT she is, and more importantly the POWER of what she can do. By trying to be Mystra, she is in constant conflict with herself, as she is a NG or CG at heart but tries to be LN or N (such was Mystra, as she was indifferent if magic was used for good or ill, as I recall which could be because SHE WAS ARROGANT AND CARED NOTHING FOR MORTALS!!!) Thus if she was herself, then truth be known I'd have more respect and less of a gripe with her (true I'd still hate her guts but slightly less). Thus Taking the name Mystra was a mistake. Be Midnight, goddess of magic. Simple... Of course her wanton control of such power is what I dislike the most about her. I mean You are the fricken Deity of magic! Use it! Smite someone! Alas, she does not. Instead she tries to use magic to help some. I am rather new to the fact of her clearing Big E's memory, and while not really that concerned it's the prinicpal behind it, the Deities should not meddle in the affairs of mortals and if this... experience of Big E is literally an 'affair'  then all the more reason not to meddle with peoples minds. I mean, jeez, what if it was really great and then he can't remember? No wonder he's jumping everything in a skirt now, she took away how many years of his already extensive life? the guy's tryin' to make up for lost time or something  ... MWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! ok got That out of my system... well that about sums it up (and also explains why I prefer taking up with Tanar'ri, Baatezu, Solars, and Planars). Dislike the deities in general, so work through more natural creatures... of course all previously mentioned gripes go out the window, when yours truely becomes such a being of power. You have been warned   |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
|
|
|
kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2003 : 14:09:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
Excellent!! Someone Sees!!! FINALLY!
Midnight was never deserving of worship in the first place!!!
A little harsh, I feel. Remember that in the book, Midnight had only just started adventuring (at most 2nd level) when Mystra gave a large part of her powers to her (the rest went to Elminster and The Symbul). Given the relative experience levels of the three, I think an element of confusion being felt by Midnight is understandable. Mystra's reasons for giving her powers to the three mortals is explained in some detail in the book as is the fact that Midnight was a last resort.
Your interpretation of Mystra trying to find the tablets is also a little strange. After being told "no return until the tablets are restored", it seems perfectly logical to go on a quest to try to find them. The answer to your question 'what part of "no return until the tables of Fate are restored" did she not understand?' would logically seem to be "none of it".
Go back and re-read the book in question. It explains that Midnight was little more than a child when all this happened to her. She ascended to Godhood when she was still a child. I find the confusion and inner turmoil she feels perfectly understandable and, to be honest, a refreshing change from the "Gods as Superpowers" which many other authors tend to write about. Midnight is immature and fallible and is all the better for it. |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2003 : 16:59:34
|
| Very good, Kahonen. Exactly my point -- only better said. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2003 : 21:01:03
|
| well i still think of Mystra as the Goddess of Magic (my deity) i have nothin against Midnight but i thought Mystra was much cooler. also, agreeing with Cardinal Deimos, i dont quite think Midnight was deserving as the role of the Goddess of Magic. I think there were other far more deserving people, Elminster at the top of my list. Think bout it, what did Midnight do 2 deserve her role? not much, ok there was the whole Time of Troubles thing but she couldnt do what she did without Elminster's help. idk i think he was far more deserving, but i am kinda glad hes still with us on Toril |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
|
|
|
Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2003 : 22:25:37
|
I have to take to the anti-Midnight side of the bunch, I am afraid. I mean, as far as choices for replacements go, Midnight was a poor one. I mean, sure, its not like mortals have never become gods before, heck most of the Torilian deities were once mortal, but Midnight did not really do much to earn immortality. She was what, like fifth level or something when she was charged with Mystra's power? I mean, talk about getting divine power on a silver platter.
And think how all the more experienced magi felt when such a mageling was invested with supreme authority over magic. A travesty.
Not to mention Midnight has proven her judgement is less than stellar, having erred so greatly she was almost cast out as deity of Magic.
So close, yet so far.
Worse still Midnight has attached a kind of 'goodly beings' only stigma to the Weave, resulting from her innappropriate Neutral Good alignment. I don't know maybe its just me, but I think there were a lot of better choices for Mystra's replacement, not that I was all that keen about her dying in the first place. Of course, its still not as bad a move as the creation of Cyric, but I will not even start in on that, just let it been known that I thank the Wizards for returned the Supreme Tyrant (That would be Bane, to those of you who missed it.) to the heavens. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
Edited by - Edain Shadowstar on 07 Dec 2003 20:09:23 |
|
|
|
Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2003 : 02:32:22
|
| well said Edain Shadowstar, i agree with her not being as deserving as others but u explained it all the greater |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
|
|
|
MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2003 : 06:59:13
|
Ok, I certainly wasn't aware of the her alignment, or any of the benefists that Bookwyrm mentioned (thanks for those, I had no idea) and my interest in this matter is rather more base.
I dont know if it Ed Greenwood's personal changin personality, but I mean when I read Elminster making of a mage, I was like wow. It's really well written and although anyone worth his salt in FR would see it coming that Myrjla (sp) was in fact Mystra, it still comes across really well. Mystra comes across as a neutral being, she has a little hint of naughtiness, but always a Godly bearing and a strong sense of morality.
Midnight, in book 3 (the only one I have read - forgive me please) of the Avatar trilogy, seems to make her come across, a little, well childish to be honest. I appreciate what kahonen is saying, and its basically the only reason I put up with that young lass from the spellfire novels, becuase they are young and so on. I mean I read the avatar novel, before making of a mage, and I was thinking, ok Mystra is gone, Midnight is in, whoopee, what's happening to Bhaal? He was much more of a cool character.
Then, I read Elminster in hell, and I dont know if its Greenwood fealing sour about something, but it really really is portrayed that the new Mystra is a bit of a biznatch. I mean she steals all memories that Elminster has of old Mystra which I dont know, but that seems to me to be the ultimate invasion, and although he takes it calmly, its just wow. She is changing everything that Mystra was. New laws the other changes mentioned (that I dotn really understand so I wont comment on) but I mean, I'm mostly talking about the literary differences in the characters. Mystra is portrayed in a such a way as to make everyone, good or evil, young or old, man or woman love her. Midnight is like an elitist snob, and she really comes across as a character I find very difficult to like.
I never liked the Simbul as well, I was thinking all the time, damn this woman needs a prozac. But then in Elminster in hell, when you read how far she is willing to go to save Elminster, I was like teary eyed and wishing I had a love that was that strong. I mean she on her own, gets farther than Mystra herself does, and that is very telling too I think.
I just get the feeling, that I dont like Midnight as a person much. She's just not nice. ::shrug::
I dont know if I'm making much sense |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
|
|
|
Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2003 : 08:43:40
|
For the first Cyric was not a spoild brat and he is not stupid he is very powerful he did have a very painful childhod and MYstra that ****
But she does her part Cyric neds a oppenent and the balance and all that |
|
|
|
Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2003 : 20:12:17
|
u make sense MuadDib, i just dont have such strong feelings against Midnight, i just thought Mystra was cooler...while we're at it, MuadDib in ur original post u said "Midnight feels bad about Mystra's
relationship with Elminster and erases all memory of their um.... whoopee experience." i rememeber hearing of this but if u would be so kind, clear this up 4 me...y did Midnight feel bad about their relationship? just becuz of what happened? and when exactly did they 'get it on?' what was the situation? thanks |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2003 : 01:44:38
|
Maybe she's acting the way she thinks she's supposed to act? Sort of "Wow, I'm the Goddess of Magic! I'd better act like it." So she starts throwing her weight around, figuring she can do what she wants. Shake things up, mold everything to her liking. Sounds a lot like a certain elven deity, doesn't it?
Sure, Elminster would have been great as a god of magic, but obviously that couldn't happen in terms of the setting. He's the "spokeswizard" for crying out loud!
The Simbul would have made a great goddess of magic, even more than Elminster, I think. But do you think she'd have accepted? Hardly. That woman's got great loyalty to her people. Only thing more important to her is Elminster. She'd never have abandoned them for anything less than Elminster himself, not even for becoming a goddess.
But back up a bit, and look at the story. Mystra comes down and transfers her power to a little girl, preparing a human avatar in advance. Everyone else had to take what they got, in most cases not even able to ask permission like she did. But when she's getting cast down, she's captured. Now that little girl -- talk about loyalty to her goddess! -- goes and finds the first group of adventurers she can and attempts a rescue.
She succeeds. Yay for her. But it seems that the human nature of her avatar, the stop-at-nothing stubbornness of that race, has gotten the best of her in her weakened state. She tries to force her way pass Helm. Sure, she knows she’s innocent of the crime. He probably thinks it likely she’s innocent. But he’s got orders, and he’s not about to fail twice. When she won’t give up -- again, likely due to that human part -- he kills her.
Now that power, all the power of a fallen goddess, is released. It goes into the nearest suitable receptacle -- a minor mage, whose only saving grace is that she’s a spellcaster who just happens to be the closest one to Mystra at her death.
Ao doesn’t really care what’s “best” for the people, or if he does he’s constrained by rules. I think it’s the later, though whether they’re rules that he made or were imposed by that mysterious overlord of his own I don’t know. Either way, he just saw that two mortals had the powers of a god each. Yes, I know that Cyric wasn’t exhibiting any power, but he killed a god -- he must have absorbed his power. So he says “Okay, you got the job.” Cyric also gets the powers of the two other ones who died as well; they didn’t prove that they deserved the job. And now you have to prove you deserve the power that your worshipers give you, that you care about more than just your own petty disputes.
Cyric had the same sort of problem, you know. He also went into his new powers in a highly juvenile fashion, just like she did. It’s just not as obvious, because he’s evil. He doesn’t have to act “properly” like Mystra would. But he was childish. “Ha ha, I killed three gods, you didn’t!” Of course, he just had the powers of three -- four, after a while. He just wanted to show how he was the “best” of all the gods. He considers himself the god. But really, he’s just a little kid -- a spoiled brat -- with a very big club. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2003 : 11:26:50
|
Ok, sorry all to take so long to return (damn BG2 mods taking up my time ). Anyways, Child or no power has a way of awakening one. Also Children are not as clueless as some would like to think. Their more cunning (and deadly in my humble opinion) than a ghast. Suffice to say that the she would (or should) have known more about power being a mage (even an exceptionally low level mage). Perhaps this is only my own alignment shining through , but The path of a mage is (I would assume) a path of power, the odds of dying, chould one enter melee combat great but the rewards, i.e. near absolute power, worth it. So What I am saying there is that most mages are power-fungery anyways ( point and basis being the MAJOR offencive spell in the arcane schools).
Now then.. What was I going to say? Oh! Indeed Cyric, I half agree with you (sorry but I just can't like Cyric the deity no matter how hard I try ) BUT he does serve a purpose in countering Midnight's power. I do have a thought though... just now.... Well kinda, but I said it before in someways. Midnight is mildly (I would say strongly but I'll err on the side of her favor) good aligned. Actually maybe Book thought of it first, by this is what had struck my insane mind from his post (along with my own Ideas on the nature of Deities).
Gods tend to be static beings. Unchanging, unyeilding. Once they are put into their own spots they become prisoners to their own power. Which is why a great number of Toril gods are usually replaced as they misunderstand and underestimate Mortals (Helm may be an exception to this as he follows his orders with no playing around. Smite an invader, ok no questions asked). Take into account the ascention of Bhaal, Myrkul and Bane, and Jergal's step down. While disinterest was the main factor, he simply ignored the three, thus they were able to make it to his door step. They same was true when Bhaal and Myrkul were slain. Underestimating mortals. My point is I am less saddened by Cyric's way of acting (deity not our own little Cyric) than Midnight's. Cyric was supposed to be a bully of sorts, however, Midnight should be an un flexing goddess of Magic. Neutral in every way (like Gond more or less). Now we get to my Idea, thought, whatever...:
Midnight is going to cause a Cataclysm if she continues on her path!
Midnight wants to cater more to only Good mages than either side. Shar and her shadow weave benefit the Evil and...more selfish mages who would seem to be ignored by Midnight (or looked over more often than good mages). This split will benefit Shar in all ways and only serve to weaken Midnight. Also she should not attempt to Mold, or shake the tree that much... I know little about the earlier Faerun but one fact is known. Lathander tried to Shake things up a bit it seems. Even if for the good... An most of us know how that turned out.
Mystra was a fool for attempting to cheat her way by Helm and Lord Ao's decree and Midnight is a bigger fool for not attempting to think/want for better things (want for more out of her Lot in life).
My antagonistic view of Cyric is the from the idea that his history was painful, he lacks any forthought to better himself. True, he has goals. Goals that I am honored that he has, I.E. overthrowing everyone eles, he has no real plan on how to get there. True the Cyrinishad (Ok I have no clue on how to spell in I and I am not going to sift through my packed books to find the correct way so forgive me) was a valiant attempt, but alas it has failed. Ok back tot eh drawing board (alas, it seems Cyric never thought of a drawing board thus no real new plots).
Anyways, perhaps it's just all this altruistic goody-goodyness (is that even a word?) Just grates against me nerves. I am however happy that such a jucy Can'O'Whoop-....errr worms... was opened. I never knew that Midnight was such a ify topic, so a BIG THANKS to MuadDib for putting this out there (makes for intresting reading). Anyways, just for the information of others who may give me a singe scrap of credit for any thoughts DON'T! It is the belief in the false-good-that-is-in-all-men-that-is-really-a-cover-for-the-vile-lie-that-is-human-nature is the basis of most of my insane and (I assume most agree) illogical theories....
Just one thing (sorry). This supposed to be avatar that plots said rescue. I know that's how it happened it just seems a little wrong to give the creature that much credit... I mean If this 'thing' was groomed to be her avatar (which is a HUGE CHEAT like Bookwyrm said more or less). Then really it's merely a puppet doing what it was supposed to do. Nothing really amazing there, I would think, but that's simply my own thoughts on it. On a side note and after thought, the gods weren't really human after they became avatars err were forced to be in Avatars even the Dead Three (or would that be the Dead two plus one revived?) were gods. Like I had previously thought/theorized (?).. stated, yes: Gods tend to be static, so once one reaches Godhood, they become static and grow no longer (Demigods are up in the air since they tend to be only partially gods... Hey, it ain't my theory and it's full of big holes). Thus being cast into an avatar does not grant them a new lease to grow but merely a mortal body that they continue to dwell in with their static state. For example most of the Deities of the Avatar Crisis.. Time of Troubles hid 'behind the curtain' until it was over. Another example would be the, what was it? Two Dwarven Gods who got into a fight on the Isle of Ruthamen (?) and one destroyed the other over a misunderstanding? There you go, You can cast the gods onto the material plane but you can't put the material into the Gods... anyways I figure most of you are sick of reading this.. (if any of you still are.. wow.. I'm flattered.. so thanks). So I bid you good eve for now... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2003 : 20:53:08
|
Consider yourself flattered then, though it did make me a bit dizzy. (Or maybe that's just this never-ending headache I can't get rid of lately.  )
Two things. First, just like you thought should be, the first Mystra was a Neutral goddess. Mystra II started as neutral good in 2e, and she's drifting to a lawful neutral alignment (partly due to Kelemvor, partly due to her job). If she actually makes it to a truely neutral standpoint (which I doubt; LN seems a good one for magic) it would be interesting if she's still allowed a paladin order. (Hey, they made an exception for Sune.)
And second, the girl (I forget how old she was, and I don't own a copy of Shadowdale so I can't check) was human, not a construct. Mystra sensed that Something Was About To Happen. She didn't know what, but she suspected somehow. So she was, I'm pretty sure, the only god or goddess who was able to choose her own avatar. (Not that it did her any good.) Any of the others could have done the same, but it seems she was the only one to have the foresight to think Ao might actually cast them down.
Which, frankly, makes the confrontation with Helm all the more strange. The suggestion I put forth, that her avatar's stubborness (and face it, that little girl was certainly stubborn!) influenced her in that regard, was the only reason I've ever been able to think of for why she did it.
I know I'd never try to get past Helm when he was on guard duty. I might be crazy, but I ain't stupid. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Arteris
Learned Scribe
121 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 01:28:16
|
| Wow reading that almost knocked my socks off.. But hey, it was a good lecture in all aspects :o) |
|
|
|
MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 06:31:01
|
Dracandos the Spellsage:
to answer your question. The 'whoopee' in question I believe happens many times but most notably at the end of 'Elminster Making of a Mage'. They both confess they are in love with each other and they make love in this firey ball etc. She then accepts him as one of her chosen, he gets spellfire and the ability to never have to sleep again.
Then my reading skips forward like waaaay forward to 'Elminster in Hell' and Midnight talks to Elmer, in one of his memories. The entire novel is a lot of memories and flashbacks, so I'm not sure when or where it 'actually' happened, but it is alluded, that Midnight doesn't like that Elminster has this intimite knowledge/relationship with the God of Magic. Furthermore, she feels that since he had that relationship with Mystra he would expect the same from her and that it would be easier for her sense of privacy and the realms in general if he forgot about those events in their entirety and thus *snuff* all gone.
As to bookwyrm: what you're saying makes a lot of sense man. I like how you get in the minds of characters and I apologise that I can not engage you with more informed and educated arguments cause you are much more well versed in lore than I am. Sorry for that 
I guess what im trying to say though, stylistically, from a writing perspective. 1) I think Mystra is written better and is a character I like more (albeit only one novel with her in that I have read) and 2) I think she is written with more love than Midnight.
I totally agree with the needs for what happened to happen. And I dont regret that Mystra was replaced, I just guess I like Mystra's personality mroe I guess. Like I would say "wow, that Mystra is hot" whereas Midnight I would likely say "please dont smite me". I mean she retains Mystra's loyalties, going after Elminster etc.
As for who else would have been better? Noone, I think I agree there. Cause to give someone who is high up the power is not something that will work. It has to be someone sort of 'unrelated'. Elminster and the simbul should never become Gods I dont think. It would be spoiling the flavour of the realms too much. So yeah, that's about what I mean.
Although, I will ask Bookwyrm: could you give me more details about why Mystra tried to get past Helm, and what exactly happened there. I have not read that book and would seriously like to know some details on what went on there |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
|
|
|
The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 08:31:52
|
Well, if ye'll allow me I'll give a generalized idea of what happened (The End of Mystra and so on and so forth). Bookwyrm, By all means correct me or fill in the details as I reall can't remember that much.
After the Essence of Mystra was recovered and placed inside the avartar CONSTRUCT (born or not, it was selected by Mystra to be her avatar thus making it more contruct than anything eles). I'll not get into my character's current research in homonculi, familiars and Golems and the creation of a new race.
Side Note:The only other exception of cheating the forced Avatar rule was Bhaal, the one true God of Faerun, and the sly old devil who attempted to be reborn... Too bad Bane ripped off the plans
Anyways, were was I? Oh, after recovering the essence of Mystra she was able to see the Celestial stairway (or somesuch) due to having more power than a regular avatar (due to already stashing some extra power in the chosen Avatar). Anyways she knew that she could find the Tablets of Fate since they would stick out like beacons on the material world from her home plane (I.E. From the outer planes, a power could Scry the Tablets and see them no problem) all she had to do was get there. Thus in order to get there the cheating little wench climbed said stairway to do just that. Helm, given his orders and being the only full powered deity left told her to return to the material, arrogant as always she ignored him, Thus he fired a warning shot theoretically across her nose. Believing she could reason with the the duty bound god, she tried to persuade him to let her pass. Reminder: this is Helm she tried to do this to. Unfortunately, Helm could not, (as Bookwyrm said) he was given his orders and he was not going to fail again. Thus in a last desparate bid she attempted to dart around Helm to her plane (as she could see it from where she was). Already, warned and given a warning shot across her nose, the next shot was Up it.() and Thus Mystra was no more. Closed book.... However the destruction wraught by the death of a god was magnificent...
Closing Misc notes: B.Wyrm, I am sorry for the dizziness, I tend to do that, since to me what I said makes perfect sense, I do realize that I tend to bounce, wander and ramble with several Ideas at once... This makes things easier for me to say since I usually do not know how to stack things by order of importance since nothing is really important but it all makes a reasonable foundation for something important.... Do you follow? ...Well anyways it's kinda like 1+1=5...yeah like that... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 09:12:36
|
| Sounds good. Like I mentioned, I don't actually have a copy of that book, so I can't check either. I do have the comic version here in a box, but that's not hardly the same. (Besides, the drawings of Mystra and Midnight both look . . . odd.) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 19:35:37
|
I think from an alignment perspective it is a bad idea to have a goddess of magic aligned towards good, or law for that matter. With that said however, I think it is BECAUSE midnight became the usurper of the goddess of magic that the shadow weave was actually able to exist. There must be balance. A good goddess of magic, requires that the evil side evolve. Good thing there is a balancing factor like AO. What if Midnight just decided to push her power and cut off everyone form the weave? Even the other gods. She would reign supreme. Of course I think it is written in the tablets of fate that she is not permitted to do that under any circumstances.
What bothers me about Midnight is the fact she has the ability to render someone she does not liek powerless. If you are going on a sea voyage, and do not leave a donation for umberlee, she can if she so desires tople your boat and cause you to drown. So why can't Midnight cut off mages for mthe weave if they do not worship her. What a way to get worshippers! And so become the most powwerful god.
Of course I have set up rules in the campaign that midnight cannot ever cut off anyone from the weave, because the weave won't let her. In my metatheology of the campaign, I have midnight set up as an aspect of the weave. She does not control the weave, it is the weave that controls her.
Well I see I have some catching up to do with the old wyrm. I guess he spent ALL of his time in the library penning scrolls while I was out teaching younger sages of the realm in warcraft and magecraft.
|
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
|
|
|
Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 20:13:22
|
Interesting topic and great posts.
As a side note when I first saw this title (Mystra's "change"). I thought it was whether or not a goddess would or could go thru menopause. |
|
|
|
The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 20:54:48
|
| If Midnight went through either that OR 'That time of the Month'. The Ao have mercy on us all... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
|
|
|
Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 21:13:31
|
Starting with what Mournblade said, I disagree when you say it is a bad idea to have a goddess of maghic be Lawful. As was proven with the Fall of Netheril, if there are not laws to govern the use of the Weave serious harm can be done to it, and through it Toril. Thus, ideally a deity of magic should be Lawful, so they are inclined to put some limitations on the use of the Weave. I do, however, a deity of magic should not be Good, as the use of magic would be become more slanted towards goodly folk, upsetting the Balance.
Also, Mournblade, you say you do not like the idea that Mystra can render anyone, even a deity, powerless by severing their connection to Weave, well she cannot do that. If you read Prince of Lies and Crucible: Trial of Cyric the Mad you will seee she learns very quickly she is not allowed to cut beings off from the Weave just because she does not like them. In Prince of Lies she cuts Cyric off from the Weave, and gets in major trouble for it because he begins to lose the ability to defend his porfolios and control the denizens of his divine realm. As such she is forced to restore his access to the Weave. In Crucible Mystra is put up on trial for failing to perform her duties, in that she makes it near impossible for spellcasters who are evil or seeking to do harm to employ magic. In the end she ends up learning she does not have the authority to govern the freewill of mortals and returns magic to its freely accessible state. In general she can only cut beings off from the Weave if they are abusing it, and thus causing the Weave harm, otherwise she cannot cut them off (and in general she cannot cut Elves off pretty much at all).
Also, Cardinal Deimos' summation of how the original Mystra died was fairly accurate, however Mystra did not want to get back to the planes to scry for the Tablets, but rather she wanted to go home and be a god again. She tried to get past Helm by telling him she knew who had stolen the Tablets (and she did) and that she would only tell the names to Ao himself. Helm tells Mystra he cannot let her in, but if she leaves the information with him, he will pass it along to Ao. Mystra refuses and attacks Helm and she is slain. Just a little clarification, that's all.
Also, Cardinal, earlier you mentioned that beings cast out of planes and into Avatars did not make the gods somewhat (though I am loath to use the term) "human", I disagree. If anyone whose read the Avtar Series remembers in Shadowdale Bane is almost moved to tears when Tempus Blackthorne, his loyal right-hand dies from a magical mishap. This rather odd emotional behavior would never have happened to God of Strife if some kind of humanity had not been imparted in him when he was cast out of the planes. Honestly, can you call a god who was once utterly evil and uncaring about those who served him (he was to god of tyrants) static if he feels pain and grieves for the loss of perhaps his only 'friend'? Just my thoughts.
|
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
|
|
|
Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 22:23:48
|
| thanks MuadDib, that explains a lot, but was Mystra in avatar when she and Elminster, ugh ya know...? how did that work exactly? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 23:02:38
|
There's a bit of a difference between the normal avatars of a god and the avatars they had to use in the Time of Troubles, but it's all summed up by the fact that in the latter, all of the gods' essences were put into very mortal shells.
So yeah, it was an avatar of Mystra I that went (as MuadDib said) "whoopee" with Elminster. Her "real" self was still back home on her own plane, but she felt every bit of it.
(I think that's as far as I'll be touching that. ) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 06:14:25
|
hwehe Bookwyrm, you sly rascal. Well said.
Yes as far as I know, she was like an Avatar, possessing some human form (if that is what an Avatar is, I won't presume to know)
She said that she had died 3 times as this mortal and it was costing her power, so she would not do it again.
On this point, and others I have raised:
Two questions:
1) Shadow weave, I know little about it, other than that it is linked to Shar I think. Now what is shadow weave? Is it like Weave for shadow magic? and What is shadow Magic if there exists such a thing? Is it more powerful than weave? What are the differences in them if any? Any help would be great
2) Elminster and the Seven are Mystra's chosen. Cool. They get special powers and are elite. What about Cadderly? He is also linked with his God, btu he is a priest. So is he like a priestly chosen? Being able to cast all sorts of spells beyond his level directly accessing...something. Not the weave I dont think, so does he access the God's personal power directly or...I dont quite get him so any help there would be cool.
And thanks again to all for the info on how Mystra got killed, I SO have to read that trilogy again.
Oh, P.S.
Another question:
If Cyric was cut off from the weave, does that mean that all the powers of the Gods are in fact 'Magic Powers' and therefore dependant on the weave? |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
|
|
|
kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 12:21:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
There's a bit of a difference between the normal avatars of a god and the avatars they had to use in the Time of Troubles, but it's all summed up by the fact that in the latter, all of the gods' essences were put into very mortal shells.
So yeah, it was an avatar of Mystra I that went (as MuadDib said) "whoopee" with Elminster. Her "real" self was still back home on her own plane, but she felt every bit of it.
(I think that's as far as I'll be touching that. )
Are you sure about this, Bookwyrm?
I thought the Gods themselves were "cast down" and were forced to walk the Realms as mortals.
If they were left on their home planes and their avatars were forced to walk the Realms, how did Waukeen go missing.
According to the introduction to "For Duty and Deity", Waukeen was trying to find a way back to her home (via the Abyss) when she was captured by Grazzt.
|
|
|
|
Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 18:38:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by MuadDib
Two questions:
1) Shadow weave, I know little about it, other than that it is linked to Shar I think. Now what is shadow weave? Is it like Weave for shadow magic? and What is shadow Magic if there exists such a thing? Is it more powerful than weave? What are the differences in them if any? Any help would be great
2) Elminster and the Seven are Mystra's chosen. Cool. They get special powers and are elite. What about Cadderly? He is also linked with his God, btu he is a priest. So is he like a priestly chosen? Being able to cast all sorts of spells beyond his level directly accessing...something. Not the weave I dont think, so does he access the God's personal power directly or...I dont quite get him so any help there would be cool.
Well in response to #1... there is already a thread for that... called something like "concept of shadow weave" i'm just too lazy to provide a link to that...
As for #2... the wizards whom dwell upon the coast provided info on the chosen of deneir... here... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/deneir which should give a bit more detail... |
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, please keep me here.
People like you are the reason people like me are on medication. |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 20:42:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by kahonen
Are you sure about this, Bookwyrm?
I thought the Gods themselves were "cast down" and were forced to walk the Realms as mortals.
If they were left on their home planes and their avatars were forced to walk the Realms, how did Waukeen go missing.
According to the introduction to "For Duty and Deity", Waukeen was trying to find a way back to her home (via the Abyss) when she was captured by Grazzt.
I've read that as well. Take a look at what I wrote again:
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
There's a bit of a difference between the normal avatars of a god and the avatars they had to use in the Time of Troubles, but it's all summed up by the fact that in the latter, all of the gods' essences were put into very mortal shells.
Not trying to rub anything in, just pointing out that I did say just that. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 20:45:51
|
| wait, it was said that it was after the whoopee experience that Elminster became 1 of Mystra's chosen...but it was then said that the whoopee happened during the time of troubles when Mystra was an avatar??? that cant be possible becuz during the time of troubles Elminster was already over 500 years old...im confused |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 21:29:14
|
| That wasn't what was said. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 22:21:21
|
Firstly, is the word 'sex' against the language policy or something? Or are we trying to be child friendly? The constant use of the term 'whooppee' is a little tedious; no offense intended Bookwyrm, much offense to others.
Now in answer to one of the questions posed by MuadDib:quote:
Originally posted by MuadDib:
If Cyric was cut off from the weave, does that mean that all the powers of the Gods are in fact 'Magic Powers' and therefore dependant on the weave?
The way it was portrayed in the novel Prince of Lies was that gods relied heavily on magic power, as well as their innate divine abilities. Now, remember Prince of Lies was a Second Edition period book, where gods (if I recall) had innate access to magic and did not require levels in Wizard or Sorcerer. I'll take a look in Legends & Lore and Forgotten Realms Deity books from Second Edition and see if I can confirm it.
Now, Kahonen, the gods were forced to take Avatars, but their entire divine essence (minus their innate divine powers) were forced into mortal forms. They were for all intensive purposes mortals, albeit exceptionally intelligent and knowledgable mortals (the term mortal in used losely here, since I believe the gods could not die from antural causes, even during the Time of Troubles, it would have made no sense). |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Mystra's Change
