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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 14:06:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Easy access.
I wouldn't quite say it's that easy. Or, at the very least, the costs involved in obtaining the secrets of lichdom shouldn't make it so easy to obtain.
We know some fiends can offer the secrets of lichdom. And while that may be somewhat easier for a summoner mage-type, the price asked of the mage by the fiend, I'd imagine, wouldn't be "cheap."
I'm thinking, though, that Alisttair has a point: compared to some other methods of answering Queen's musical question, lichdom is relatively common.
Maybe.
Though, I still come back to Velsharoon's process of attaining lichdom before ascending to become a demi-god, which doesn't exactly suggest it is all that common. [Unless, of course, this particular lichdom process was specifically tailored to the concept of divine ascension.] Perhaps that factor influenced what position Velsharoon would occupy in the pantheon, rather that what we're told in Powers & Pantheons -- that it was a decision by Ao to create a balance against Kelemvor.
I have a strong belief that he became a lich to link himself to the physical phylactery of Mellifleur (the original one) which was what he used to gain his foothold on divinity. I also believe that it was his ritual that "re-awoke" Bane to a degree as there was "spillage" of divine power during the ritual (Mellifleur's ascension being tied to having accidentally stolen divine power from Bane). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 14:08:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
I always thought demons/devils/whatever you call them are immortal. So why not use some nifty spells to transform yourself into one?
because, when you die as a demon or devil "usually" there is no coming back. There's no afterlife for them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 14:10:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I thought becoming a lich needed careful, extensive preparations. But I read a novel, I think it was Daughter of the Drow, where a wizard used it as a contingency---when he fell into boiling magma and died, he rose again as a lich. I know different wizards attain lichdom in various ways. But was that contingency "normal"?
I do believe, classic lichdom basically set you up that if you died, you'd come back as a lich. Some died during the process and did indeed become a lich right away. Some just died. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 14:15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Mummies anyone?
Mummy mages are the ones who couldn't figure out how to become a lich |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 14:20:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Mummies anyone?
Mummy mages are the ones who couldn't figure out how to become a lich
That's not what your mummy said last night  Kidding |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 14:24:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's an elven High Magic spell called Gift of Life that can restore life to undead creatures, and is specifically said to have been used on vampires in the past. The spell is in Elves of Evermeet.
This could have helped Baeris out in the Haunted Lands |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 14:30:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Quite right on the "coolness" thing.
I'm not sure if it's easier than the other possible means. Few powerful wizards know the ritual to lichdom, and that's not because they're not interested, but just simply do. Also, we only know one wizard who has managed to make more than a hundred phylacteries---so clearly, that feat alone is something extremely difficult to duplicate.
Hmmm, you know, that brings up a question. Who became a lich first, Mellifleur or Aumvor (it is Aumvor with the multiple phylacteries, correct?). Both have multiple phylacteries (though one is/was a god).
I would say Aumvor first, since his transformation to a lich was part of his contingencies which activated moments after Netheril's Fall. Melif, on the other hand, became a lich centuries after the annihilation of Netheril. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 14:30:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Shadovar refer to Magadon as a Mind Mage; it's unclear (to me) whether he is a psion or psion/multiclass.
mind mage is a general term for psionicist in the realm. Its stated somewhere, but I can't tell you where offhand. Its a lot easier for the layman to understand. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 14:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's an elven High Magic spell called Gift of Life that can restore life to undead creatures, and is specifically said to have been used on vampires in the past. The spell is in Elves of Evermeet.
This could have helped Baeris out in the Haunted Lands
And Tammith, too. Though I understand well the seeming necessity of their fates in the trilogy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 14:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why choose lichdom over other forms of immortality---wish spells-generated [Halaster], infusing one's self with shadowstuff [Telamont], or creating several clones [Manshoon]? Heck, one might even change his physical make-up by meshing his genes/blood with those of the long-lived races like the sarrukh. So why lichdom? What made Aumvor, Szass Tam, Larloch, Sammaster, Frostrune, and other liches of note [or otherwise] decide to continue their existence in such manner? Other than their obvious proclivity to undeath, of course.
Let's try to see the benefits, or lack thereof... Lichdom grants one multiple “lives” via the number of phylacteries he can make. But so does cloning. Though it appears like the secret to such feat has been kept secret by Manshoon. Lichdom also makes one practically immune to almost all kinds of undeath magic. However, so does any wizard who has mastered the intricate art of necromancy. Lichdom needs low maintenance, compared to vampirism [no vampire doesn't need to drink blood] and wish spells, which must be cast at a regular interval. Nonetheless, so does becoming a being of pure shadowstuff.
What then makes lichdom so enticing to many powerful beings of Toril?
Aside: There's already a novel aptly titled An Interview with the Vampire. To help us lore-seekers and keepers understand more the things involved in becoming and being a lich, can FR fiction have An Interview with the Lich?
I'd put it more to something like this "damn, I'm getting old, I'm going to die.... hmmm, I've read of becoming a lich, and I know it works... I've heard of some of this other stuff, but I may not know how to do it.... and I helped turn that dragon into a dracolich, so I've done it before... plus, I can set it up to happen WHENEVER I die, and maybe before then I'll find another thing to try.... yeah, I don't have another 10 years to research, let me try it....".
Now, why more people aren't doing body stealing (i.e. soul transfer), I don't know. My personal story of Velsharoon before becoming a deity was that he was a master of body theft, which is why he lived for so long (remember, he was around for several hundred years before Szass Tam... and truthfully, my feeling is that he was higher level than Tam, just lacking the resources of a nation to back him up). The only reason he became a lich was to try to harness the power of Mellifleur's phylactery (the original one) and become a deity.
Also, there's another option that you don't see much in use. They are the mages who become incorporeal undead (I forget what they were called... maybe spellshade maybe spectral mage?). Its similar but different from being a shade. Of course, you can't interact with things without them being "ghost touch", but with eschew materials it should be a doable thing for most mages (and there are other feats for "ghostly" mages). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 14:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Quite right on the "coolness" thing.
I'm not sure if it's easier than the other possible means. Few powerful wizards know the ritual to lichdom, and that's not because they're not interested, but just simply do. Also, we only know one wizard who has managed to make more than a hundred phylacteries---so clearly, that feat alone is something extremely difficult to duplicate.
Hmmm, you know, that brings up a question. Who became a lich first, Mellifleur or Aumvor (it is Aumvor with the multiple phylacteries, correct?). Both have multiple phylacteries (though one is/was a god).
I would say Aumvor first, since his transformation to a lich was part of his contingencies which activated moments after Netheril's Fall. Melif, on the other hand, became a lich centuries after the annihilation of Netheril.
Ok, that answers it (was wondering if he transformed years later, as I knew Bane's rising was "close" to the fall of Netheril and Mellifleur came some undisclosed time after. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 15:59:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's an elven High Magic spell called Gift of Life that can restore life to undead creatures, and is specifically said to have been used on vampires in the past. The spell is in Elves of Evermeet.
Interesting. Is it purely arcane, divine, or a combination of both?
Elven High Magic, so it's arcane. Given how risky High Magic is, outside of Evermeet, you're not likely to find a willing caster of this spell without going there. Which would be complicated, with a vampire. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 16:01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's an elven High Magic spell called Gift of Life that can restore life to undead creatures, and is specifically said to have been used on vampires in the past. The spell is in Elves of Evermeet.
This could have helped Baeris out in the Haunted Lands
And Tammith, too. Though I understand well the seeming necessity of their fates in the trilogy.
In 2E, at least, casting High Magic spells could have disastrous consequences on the caster. Evermeet was one of a very small number of places where High Magic could be used without the risk of blowing up or dying. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 21:32:00
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quote:
sleyvas
quote:
Zireael
I always thought demons/devils/whatever you call them are immortal. So why not use some nifty spells to transform yourself into one?
because, when you die as a demon or devil "usually" there is no coming back. There's no afterlife for them.
Fiends certainly do have a rather lengthy and exciting afterlife on the lower planes. It's just not a lifestyle which appeals to everyone. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 11:03:55
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So what are the ways we established?
- lichdom
- clones
- demons/devils
- other polymorph (elans?)
- wish
- Gift of Life (EHM)
- shadowstuff (shades)
Anything else? Oh, I've got it - being a Chosen of X or a child of a deity. Or both.
@ OP: An Interview with a Lich would be lovely!
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SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 11:51:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In 2E, at least, casting High Magic spells could have disastrous consequences on the caster. Evermeet was one of a very small number of places where High Magic could be used without the risk of blowing up or dying.
Does it work on one undead only per casting? Or can a single casting affect multiple undead? If so, up to how many? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
231 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 13:17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
So what are the ways we established?
- lichdom
- clones
- demons/devils
- other polymorph (elans?)
- wish
- Gift of Life (EHM)
- shadowstuff (shades)
Anything else? Oh, I've got it - being a Chosen of X or a child of a deity. Or both.
Well I came up with a list myself a while ago. Besides what you've got.
- Vampirism (and other forms of undeath)
- Godhood
- Living on the Astral (or similar) Plane
- Transferring one's psyche into an object or person
- Spellscars (I believe some can...?)
- Potions of Longevity (and similar elixirs)
- Golden Apple (supposedly some sort of divine fruit...?)
- Ioulam's Longevity
- Aumvor used necromancy to leech the living energy off his zombie servitors before eventually turning to lichdom |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 15:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In 2E, at least, casting High Magic spells could have disastrous consequences on the caster. Evermeet was one of a very small number of places where High Magic could be used without the risk of blowing up or dying.
Does it work on one undead only per casting? Or can a single casting affect multiple undead? If so, up to how many?
Just one. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 15:44:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Light
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
So what are the ways we established?
- lichdom
- clones
- demons/devils
- other polymorph (elans?)
- wish
- Gift of Life (EHM)
- shadowstuff (shades)
Anything else? Oh, I've got it - being a Chosen of X or a child of a deity. Or both.
Well I came up with a list myself a while ago. Besides what you've got.
- Vampirism (and other forms of undeath)
- Godhood
- Living on the Astral (or similar) Plane
- Transferring one's psyche into an object or person
- Spellscars (I believe some can...?)
- Potions of Longevity (and similar elixirs)
- Golden Apple (supposedly some sort of divine fruit...?)
- Ioulam's Longevity
- Aumvor used necromancy to leech the living energy off his zombie servitors before eventually turning to lichdom
There's magic similar to Aumvor's, that can be used to extend life by leeching off someone else's. I know there's at least one spellslinger in the North using it, but I'm drawing a blank on her name.
Oh, and the Realms does have an analogue of the Portrait of Dorian Gray. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Oct 2011 15:46:03 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 18:41:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
So what are the ways we established?
- lichdom
- clones
- demons/devils
- other polymorph (elans?)
- wish
- Gift of Life (EHM)
- shadowstuff (shades)
Anything else? Oh, I've got it - being a Chosen of X or a child of a deity. Or both.
@ OP: An Interview with a Lich would be lovely!
spectral mage
mummy
vampire
soul transfer into someone else's body
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 03:49:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Light
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
So what are the ways we established?
- lichdom
- clones
- demons/devils
- other polymorph (elans?)
- wish
- Gift of Life (EHM)
- shadowstuff (shades)
Anything else? Oh, I've got it - being a Chosen of X or a child of a deity. Or both.
Well I came up with a list myself a while ago. Besides what you've got.
- Vampirism (and other forms of undeath)
- Godhood
- Living on the Astral (or similar) Plane
- Transferring one's psyche into an object or person
- Spellscars (I believe some can...?)
- Potions of Longevity (and similar elixirs)
- Golden Apple (supposedly some sort of divine fruit...?)
- Ioulam's Longevity
- Aumvor used necromancy to leech the living energy off his zombie servitors before eventually turning to lichdom
There's magic similar to Aumvor's, that can be used to extend life by leeching off someone else's. I know there's at least one spellslinger in the North using it, but I'm drawing a blank on her name.
Oh, and the Realms does have an analogue of the Portrait of Dorian Gray.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996.0
You may find this guide (for 3.5e specifically, though it's also a bit heavy on mechanics) to be of use. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 05:48:15
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Sigh, nobody bothers to search anymore. Here's a little scroll about magical paintings.
I once asked about a Realms or Ravenloft equivalent of Elizabeth Báthory but received no reply. She was an infamous historical figure attributed to have developed a (thoroughly amoral and disgusting) method of achieving longevity/immortality which I suppose might be classified as a form of vampirism, life drain, or necromancy in D&D terms.
Non-D&D stories abound about pacts with the Devil or witches or demons or whatever, gaining longevity in exchange for eternity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 05:54:42
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There's also a lady in Implements of Destruction by Michael Calligaro who's become immortal by dwelling in a lake suffused with potent magic. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 06:08:26
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| Seems to work for Tyranthraxus. Water, life, spirit, and magic are inseparably entwined in many systems. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 07:10:49
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I can't find the exact page(s) where it's mentioned, but I vaguely recall there was more to it than "nature magic," some kind of residue left after a long forgotten war of the greatest of wizards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 11:38:21
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recently I researched life-extending for my PC's, none of these worked for them, but these are other options
making a pact with a powerful outsider
steal Andrathath's Mask from Marune
find the Ruler's Sword or the Timeless Fountain, lake Eredruie for elves, Ring of Winter
acquire the oil of agelessness in Unther or trumpet archon mead
cast Ensul's Soultheft, Nar Fiendbond, Life Force Transfer, Protection from Time, one vampiric spell that I forgot the name or one Dustmen 8th level spell
join the death cult in Bhaluin
become Chosen or an Elder of the Emerald Enclave
attendt the Feast of Ages
Ossavitor's way
humonculus of Ivid the Undying
awana spice and the Book of Hsi in Kara-Tur
join the Preserver sect in Planescape
transform into avangions or dragon-kings of Athas
find the Citadel of Eternity or Wooly Cupgrass in Sigil |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 05:09:41
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I think that lichdom is the best way to live forever, considering you do not have to cater to any cravings(blood and flesh come to mind) as well as being truly eternal(as being immortal actually implies living) i mean you achieved it just to learn more magic and become a master of the Art! Besides i am sure that people know about Ambuchar Devayam, the raja of Solon and a unique necromancer undead lich-like entity. His crystal phylactery actually regenerates, and as long as it exists he exists as well. Dang it, now i need some ancient Imaskari magic to combined with my necromancy too.
PS. Has anyone read finish the Brotherhood of the Griffon trilogy yet? Imagine Xorvintaal being played by all of the Realms liches! |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 08:59:01
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Disagreed ... liches do indeed have cravings. They are driven by an insatiable need to acquire and master magical power, it is an overwhelmingly important purpose, it is what sustains their existence. No less imperative, I imagine, than a vampire's endless thirst for living blood.
To my mind liches no longer possess truly human psychology; they possess singular purpose and faculties and lust for magic and power, they dismiss (perhaps no longer even comprehend) anything else as inconsequential and irrelevant unless it can somehow be used to manipulate others to further themselves. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 09:31:50
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I'm inclined to agree. Regardless of alignment, it seems like nothing else matters to them except acquiring more power and magical knowledge. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Idamar of Thay
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 13:13:04
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Well it's not as if their lichdom caused their hunger for magic, they had it as a living mage before.
But still, of the many types of immortality, liches have low maintenance and do not need to follow any deity or organizations. It's all about freeing up as much time as possible to study spells really. And the added powers and defenses are a big bonus too. |
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Topic |
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Why choose lichdom over...?
