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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 13:46:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Politicians? They wish immortality, but not at the cost of their humanity!
I ignored they had such thing 
Some of them are hardly human to begin with...
Might as well edit this to begin with ALL |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 13:48:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I. 
Super-glue!
And how to you propose to open the bottle when your fingers have fallen off?
BTW all liches always have some big skully teeth, so they can always use them to open the tub...
If Pharaun could cast spells using his feet, I guess some wizards could use theirs to open a bottle. And that includes liches.
Toes would be subject to falling off, too.
I suppose the lich could always command one of their many minions to open the bottle of super-glue |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 14:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Has been any case of "nimble" constructs around? The only ones I've seen or read about are the typical massive adamantine/iron/clay/ etc... golem ones
Well, there's nimblewrights... And Baelam the Bold encountered some contruct that was nimble enough that when it cut off his hand, he had one of the contruct's hands grafted in its place -- and he is a spellslinger.
Keep in mind, golems aren't nimble because golems are created with the "Hulk SMASH!" tactic in mind. You don't need to be nimble when even a glancing blow will reduce someone to mush.
Forgot to mention the most nimble construct of all of them, in the Realms: Alias and her sisters.
Oh yeah forgot about Alias and so, but I think of her more like a kind of clone that a construct, though she was created from nothing.... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 14:15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I.
Super-glue!
And how to you propose to open the bottle when your fingers have fallen off?
BTW all liches always have some big skully teeth, so they can always use them to open the tub...
If Pharaun could cast spells using his feet, I guess some wizards could use theirs to open a bottle. And that includes liches.
Toes would be subject to falling off, too.
I suppose the lich could always command one of their many minions to open the bottle of super-glue
BTW all this talking about liches possible limbs to open a super-glue tub, when I meant Demi-liches.... sorry my bad  |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 15:34:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The physical condition of liches in the Realms, especially examples like Szass Tam (until recently) being able to halt decay and even conceal his nonliving state, suggests that liches are fairly well-designed, sturdy, and capable of some self-repair.
I think that if this was a normal ability for liches, they'd not look like walking corpses.
At the very least, they'd look like rather fresh corpses.
Edit: Thought occurs to me, I've heard in recent decades the amount of time it takes for bodies to decay when removed from the threat of scavengers has increased considerably due to the increase of preservatives in the modern diet. I wonder if someone planning for lichdom might start adding similar substances to their diets in the years leading up to their preforming the ritual to become a lich to help preserve their form. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
Edited by - Chosen of Asmodeus on 29 Sep 2011 15:49:05 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 16:27:33
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I'm of the opinion that immortality always has a price, and the lich's price is actually one of the lower available.
Also, while the process of becoming a lich is far from simple, it's considerably less difficult than certain other paths. In mechanical terms, you could be a lich in 3.x at 11th level. No messing around with gods or divine sources of eternal life required: some spells, some investment, and some XP loss, and you are good to go. And go. And going and going and going . . .
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 16:47:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
... (well, except from Krynn, which has no native psionics).
I wouldn't say that's exactly the case.
Mental powers and similar abilities aren't abnormal for Krynn. The setting's had examples of these since the first novels came out. It's just that the psionics rules themselves, however, from most editions of the D&D game, are not supported by content in most of the DL game products, so that particular way of handing telepathy, extrasensory perception, and mind blasts is not something that's used. Rather, it's usually explained with magic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 01:51:52
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Someone who uses both divine and arcane magic is called theurge, like Rivalen. Is there a [Realsian] name for someone who is a psionicist and arcane spellcaster? Psimage? How about for one who's a cleric [not of the God of Psionics] and psionist? Psipriest? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 02:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Are there psionic liches in the Realms? If so, did they retain their full ability when they were still "alive"? Was it increased or decreased exponentially?
I put forth this question in the Ask Ed section earlier this year. No luck so far. I was curious after I came across their entry in an older (2nd edition I believe) book I bought in a lot off of Ebay. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 02:22:01
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If I’m not mistaken, before a wizard attains lichdom, all the spells he’d learned and memorized prior to embracing undeath are retained forever. [Something along that line was mentioned in the novel Undead.] Does it mean the number of spells he could memorize during his unlife becomes limited? For example, before his transformation, he usually learned 20 spells at most. Moments before lichdom, he memorized 15, which after the liching process became ingrained to the very core of his being. Does it mean he could learn only 5 more spells at a time? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 02:42:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Someone who uses both divine and arcane magic is called theurge, like Rivalen. Is there a [Realsian] name for someone who is a psionicist and arcane spellcaster? Psimage? How about for one who's a cleric [not of the God of Psionics] and psionist? Psipriest?
I don't specifically recall a Realmslore term for such a class, but I do remember something like this from the 3.5e tome Complete Psionic.
May have to dig out my copy.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 04:17:44
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| The Shadovar refer to Magadon as a Mind Mage; it's unclear (to me) whether he is a psion or psion/multiclass. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 04:21:41
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Magadon struck me as a "pure" psionicist. I can't recall any instances where he used arcane magic. Nor did he have a spellbook, which is a requirement for all Weave-based spellcasters. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 30 Sep 2011 04:40:57 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 04:54:10
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Many sorcerers lack spellbooks. Magadon also seemed to employ skills traditionally associated with various fighter and thief classes, although these could also be explained as his having a high (monoclass psionic) character level or just a broad array of psionic abilities granting him versatility. Plus his accomplishments are of course described in narrative fluff instead of numeric crunch, it's subject to all sorts of bias from author and reader and context. Plus he's some sort of 3E-generated character, which is another way of saying he (along with almost everyone else in his world) almost certainly possesses some degree of "minor" or crossover multiclassing ... when in Rome ...
One cannot overlook the fact that Magadon is also a cambion (sired by Mephistopheles, no less!) ... he may possess all sorts of wonderful fiendish abilities, even if he consciously refuses to recognize or employ them. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 05:09:52
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I have also heard of the term mind mage being refered to on a few other realmsian npcs.
I could swear that the second in command of Jarlaxle's group has been called that. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 05:16:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Shadovar refer to Magadon as a Mind Mage; it's unclear (to me) whether he is a psion or psion/multiclass.
Lisa Smedman used "mind magic" to refer to various psionic disciplines in the 'House of Serpents' trilogy. And, really, it could be used as a descriptor for any magically-inclined psionic-multiclass character in the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 06:07:11
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Isn't Mind Mage just another name for Psionicist? [Not a wizard/sorcerer and psionicist at the same time.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 06:13:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Isn't Mind Mage just another name for Psionicist? [Not a wizard/sorcerer and psionicist at the same time.]
that was my interpetation of it
just as arcanist and mage were just another term for wizards and sorcerers
priest was just another name for cleric |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 06:18:31
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| Shadovar (and the Netherese before them) might have differentiated between Mind Mages and Mentalists - or they might not. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 06:55:10
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Other than a deity's aid, is there a way for a vampire to recover his humanity, specially when he didn't want to be transformed in the first place? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 06:57:23
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Say, a certain lich has multiple phylacteries. If one of them is destroyed, will he feel its loss? Will he be weakened considerably? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 07:20:13
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Van Richten speculated upon "curing" vampirism through means of divine resurrection magics. Although his writings were presented within the context of the Ravenloft setting, where wholesome resurrection is more legend than fact ... so he could make no statements with any authority. In short, the only canonical D&D reference addressing the possibility of reversing vampiric affliction (that I know of) was deliberately written in an open-ended suggestive way which individual DMs/authors could interpret or ignore as desired. I suspect part of the reason for this was to prevent PCs and NPCs from frequently swapping back and forth between alive and undead status as easily as they change weapons or clothes; after all, you'd just need a pet vampire and a pet priest to effect the change ... possibilities for munchkin abuse could run rampant if the process followed real rules, undead immunities would be really handy when fighting undead, no? Plus we'd have to allow significant vamps (like Strahd or Vampshoon) the possibility of being restored to life (by their own actions or by those of their enemies), we'd even have to accept the possibility that other notable (and presumably good) heroes don vampirism from time to time when preparing to face danger.
(To my knowledge, no D&D author has concretely explored these details, although I haven't read all the Ravenloft fiction and few other D&D settings contain significant vampire characters. Certainly, none of the modules nor Realmslore I've read has ever had a character recover from true vampirism. Most are killed, some have grown in power, a few have evolved into something else entirely, but none have ever returned to the living.)
I would expect wish magics might also restore pre-vampiric form. Again, it's really all up to the individual DM/author. Again, such spells are largely unattainable (and invariably twisted to dark purposes) within the Ravenloft setting. Another consideration is the apparent lack of wish spells in 4E rules (post-Spellplague settings).
A handful of particular artifacts of great power might also cure vampirism. Might. If the DM/author assigns them that power.
A Realms possibility - and I might be very mistaken - is bathing within the waters of certain magical wells or pools. These are basically subject to the same DM/author assignations as artifacts, except the package typically also includes guardians (or deities or spirits or elementals) who are hostile to unholy creatures (or to just everyone) and must therefore be defeated or appeased. Another Realms possibility would be some sort of appeal (ie: payment) to the Death god du jour: Jergal, Myrkul, Cyric, Kelemvor, plus perhaps Amaunator, Lathander, Chauntea, etc ... or perhaps even to a foreign power, celestial, or fiend. Or submit to medical research conducted by your friendly local necromancer, lich, witch, shaman, arrogant elfy High Mage, or dragon. Good luck.
In fact, the curse of vampirism, and utter inability to halt, control, or reverse it, is a central theme in writings about Jander Sunstar and Strahd. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Sep 2011 08:01:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 10:47:32
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| There's an elven High Magic spell called Gift of Life that can restore life to undead creatures, and is specifically said to have been used on vampires in the past. The spell is in Elves of Evermeet. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 10:55:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's an elven High Magic spell called Gift of Life that can restore life to undead creatures, and is specifically said to have been used on vampires in the past. The spell is in Elves of Evermeet.
Interesting. Is it purely arcane, divine, or a combination of both? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 11:16:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Say, a certain lich has multiple phylacteries. If one of them is destroyed, will he feel its loss? Will he be weakened considerably?
I expect a very Voldemort-ish reaction; Scream in pain and anger and lash out at the nearest minion. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 11:18:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Other than a deity's aid, is there a way for a vampire to recover his humanity, specially when he didn't want to be transformed in the first place?
There was an arcane spell level 9, an elf spell, which reversed the effect of undeath. It allowed a single save vs spells, or the target would be brought back to its former mortal self. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 11:27:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Say, a certain lich has multiple phylacteries. If one of them is destroyed, will he feel its loss? Will he be weakened considerably?
I expect a very Voldemort-ish reaction; Scream in pain and anger and lash out at the nearest minion.
Perhaps. I think it has never been shown in the novels. Sammaster pretty much felt the destruction of his phylactery in The Ruin. But I don't think it counts, as he only had one. Or only had one left.
Though I would imagine Szass Tam [if indeed he has multiple phylacteries] would feel the loss of one. If he was able to detect the annihilation of one Dread Ring, then so must he also be able to feel [agonizingly, if I may add] the destruction of one phylactery, which I guess is more tightly tied to his being than the Dread Rings. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 13:33:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why choose lichdom over other forms of immortality---wish spells-generated [Halaster], infusing one's self with shadowstuff [Telamont], or creating several clones [Manshoon]? Heck, one might even change his physical make-up by meshing his genes/blood with those of the long-lived races like the sarrukh. So why lichdom? What made Aumvor, Szass Tam, Larloch, Sammaster, Frostrune, and other liches of note [or otherwise] decide to continue their existence in such manner? Other than their obvious proclivity to undeath, of course.
Let's try to see the benefits, or lack thereof... Lichdom grants one multiple “lives” via the number of phylacteries he can make. But so does cloning. Though it appears like the secret to such feat has been kept secret by Manshoon. Lichdom also makes one practically immune to almost all kinds of undeath magic. However, so does any wizard who has mastered the intricate art of necromancy. Lichdom needs low maintenance, compared to vampirism [no vampire doesn't need to drink blood] and wish spells, which must be cast at a regular interval. Nonetheless, so does becoming a being of pure shadowstuff.
What then makes lichdom so enticing to many powerful beings of Toril?
Aside: There's already a novel aptly titled An Interview with the Vampire. To help us lore-seekers and keepers understand more the things involved in becoming and being a lich, can FR fiction have An Interview with the Lich?
I'd put it more to something like this "damn, I'm getting old, I'm going to die.... hmmm, I've read of becoming a lich, and I know it works... I've heard of some of this other stuff, but I may not know how to do it.... and I helped turn that dragon into a dracolich, so I've done it before... plus, I can set it up to happen WHENEVER I die, and maybe before then I'll find another thing to try.... yeah, I don't have another 10 years to research, let me try it....".
Now, why more people aren't doing body stealing (i.e. soul transfer), I don't know. My personal story of Velsharoon before becoming a deity was that he was a master of body theft, which is why he lived for so long (remember, he was around for several hundred years before Szass Tam... and truthfully, my feeling is that he was higher level than Tam, just lacking the resources of a nation to back him up). The only reason he became a lich was to try to harness the power of Mellifleur's phylactery (the original one) and become a deity. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 13:46:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Quite right on the "coolness" thing.
I'm not sure if it's easier than the other possible means. Few powerful wizards know the ritual to lichdom, and that's not because they're not interested, but just simply do. Also, we only know one wizard who has managed to make more than a hundred phylacteries---so clearly, that feat alone is something extremely difficult to duplicate.
Hmmm, you know, that brings up a question. Who became a lich first, Mellifleur or Aumvor (it is Aumvor with the multiple phylacteries, correct?). Both have multiple phylacteries (though one is/was a god). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 13:57:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
if one would want to achieve immortality with a wish spell, you'd have to just wish to stop aging both in body and mind.
Be glad I'm not your DM. Making your mind quit aging would be something where I'd give you permanent memory loss from that point moving forward. Then, your body not aging, I'd have it drop into stasis.
There's a specific spell, though its second edition, meant for powerful chronomancers to perform this. I'd put this kind of thing available for specialists and such who have focused on this kind of magic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Why choose lichdom over...?
