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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  03:12:26  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zinzerena is chaotic evil and a demi-goddess of assassins. As such, she's an enemy of the Seldarine.

Here's a quote from On Hallowed Ground:
quote:
Zinzerena is evil, amoral, and totally beloved by the drow who wish to throw off the shackles of the matron mothers. As the patron of assassins and chaos, she teaches the value of cruelty, stealth, misdirection, and survival by any means necessary....



"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  05:21:12  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She's chaotic neutral in the other settings with chaotic evil tendecies.

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Zinzerena

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinzerena#Zinzerena
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  07:19:17  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd say those are not very accurate. The only two write-ups on her that I'm aware of have her listed as CE. One in Monster Mythology, and another in an issue of Dragon.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

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"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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MrHedgehog
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688 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  11:15:05  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What are these settings where she is listed as Chaotic Neutral?
On Hallowed Ground is what I would put the most stock in. Her description makes her sound absolutely evil.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  18:33:02  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She was evil in the monster Mythology, too. And the Dragon article was for Greyhawk, the only other setting in which she appears.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  18:46:26  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zinzerna was "in" FR, she was just either killed or banished by Lolth. In some othe sources, more recent ones I believe, she was said to be chaotic neutral with chaotic evil tendecies. Her priests can be all of the chaotics and neutral.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36758 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  21:00:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

Zinzerna was "in" FR, she was just either killed or banished by Lolth. In some othe sources, more recent ones I believe, she was said to be chaotic neutral with chaotic evil tendecies. Her priests can be all of the chaotics and neutral.



I think we need sources for this.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  02:32:11  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will note that Zinzerena is listed among other Prime Material gods in the 2e For Duty & Deity adventure model.

It's the only known reference to this particular deity in the Realmslore, that I can immediately recall.

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  03:05:20  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She was supposedly lurking in Menzo for a time, but was hunted down and subsumed by Lolth, last I recall- this was mentioned very briefly in one of the LP books, I believe. That's the only source I can think of for her in Realmslore, but no mention of alignment was made- for obvious reasons. (Novels tend to stay away from that sort of thing.)the article on Vault of the Drow Update in Dragon was the only other recent mention of her.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  04:51:52  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Source?

Brace Cormaeril
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  05:01:50  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wish we could get more of Zinzerena, she could be amazing. She could be a neutral Eilistraee (without the cheesy (sorta) redemption).
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  05:24:25  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So there aren't actually any official references for Zinzerena being CN, other than "some settings" somewhere?


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  05:48:49  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

Source?

I believe Alystra referenced the "Lady Penitent" trilogy. I'm assuming that's what "LP" referred to.

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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  05:55:39  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

Source?

I believe Alystra referenced the "Lady Penitent" trilogy. I'm assuming that's what "LP" referred to.


Just did a text keyword search for "Zinzerena" in the whole LP series, wasn't there.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  06:10:48  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, you were correct, Sage. Eltheron, you using the kindle version? I don't have those books- checked them out of the library once, and never bought them (too depressing) so I can't be absolutely certain it was in them, but I seem to remember an off-hand comment about her by Lolth in one of the novels. She may not have been mentioned by name, but I remember laughing when I read it, because I knew it was her. It was one of the few times I've seen her mentioned outside of older sources. Might have been one of the WotSQ series (likely a later one). Pretty sure it was LP, though.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  07:33:51  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's the thing. Being "pretty sure" or saying "I think" or "I believe" or "I seem to remember" is insufficient when providing a source. Episodes of reality TV, personal anecdotes, web pages (even wikis), don't cut it either.

The question here isn't whether Zinzerena was in Menzo. On Hallowed Ground, the source I mentioned from Planescape, establishes Zinzerena's presence there. Other material supports this, and Lolth supplanting her later. Drow of the Underdark relates her story in more detail, but it's a core book and not necessarily specific to FR. Demihuman Deities is the source for the Realms that clearly states that Lolth ultimately killed Zinzerena or at least drove her influence from the Realms.

Zinzerena was listed as CN in Dragon #298. But that is the only place where she is listed as CN, and it's for Oerth-Greyhawk, anyway. Even so, reading the text for her in the same article, it's clear that "CN" is definitely an error, especially since other published sources agree that she is CE.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe

Spain
730 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  09:02:02  Show Profile Send Thelonius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
mmmmm I'd go for Vhaeraun, liked his appearences in the WotSQ series, but also like Kiaransalee, in fact in NWN1 made a "drow" (dark skinned elf) cleric devoted to her. In fact I finally voted for Kiaransalee

"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est

Edited by - Thelonius on 19 Jul 2011 09:03:27
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  11:25:00  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really like Selvetarm best. Mostly because his followers are so bad ass. They pray to him right on the battlefield after they've taken their first kill!

Selvetarms story is also quite intriguing and he could have been an interesting member of the Seldarine if things hadn't gone Lolths way for a change.

My campaign sketches

Druidic Groves

Creature Feature: Giant Spiders
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  15:38:33  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I totally agree.
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
293 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  18:38:26  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

[...]

Zinzerena was listed as CN in Dragon #298. But that is the only place where she is listed as CN, and it's for Oerth-Greyhawk, anyway. Even so, reading the text for her in the same article, it's clear that "CN" is definitely an error, especially since other published sources agree that she is CE.




I agree. Who wrote that article, by the way?
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  18:49:23  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like her as cn.
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
293 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:09:55  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

I like her as cn.



That's your absolute right, and have fun with a CN Zinzerena in your home campaign!

In the official DnD alignment system/cosmology, however, I believe that it is unthinkable that a deity with the portfolio of "assassins" would be non-evil - that part of the Dragon article must be an error, as Eltheron wrote.
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:15:15  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

[...]

Zinzerena was listed as CN in Dragon #298. But that is the only place where she is listed as CN, and it's for Oerth-Greyhawk, anyway. Even so, reading the text for her in the same article, it's clear that "CN" is definitely an error, especially since other published sources agree that she is CE.




I agree. Who wrote that article, by the way?


Frederick Weining wrote that Dragon article, though it also says "based on out-of-print material by Gary Gygax and Monte Cook". It was one of those "optional add-on" types of articles they did back then, specifically written for Oerth-Greyhawk, and includes Kiaransalee (although her name is oddly spelled, "Kiaransali"), as well as a male drow deity called "Keptolo". Both Keptolo and Kiaransali are in direct service of Lolth, with this Kiaransali having more of a focus on slavery and executions than undeath, and Keptolo being the deity of flattery and obsequious Lolth-love. It's quite odd. Additionally, Zinzerena gained her divinity by stealing power from Keptolo... as such, she is an interloper deity to the Realms, tied specifically to this Oerth version, because there's no other reference anywhere to a Keptolo of which I'm aware.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:23:07  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran

quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

I like her as cn.



That's your absolute right, and have fun with a CN Zinzerena in your home campaign!

In the official DnD alignment system/cosmology, however, I believe that it is unthinkable that a deity with the portfolio of "assassins" would be non-evil - that part of the Dragon article must be an error, as Eltheron wrote.


IMO, the "CN" in this article is just a typo mistake, considering that her litany is written thus:

quote:
Raise yourself up by bringing others down. Don't reveal your strength, or your hatred, until your victim is helpless. Don't strike until you have the advantage; the only "fair" fight is the one you win. Once the trap is sprung, make time to gloat for the kill. The legs of the spider are made to be broken.


If that isn't clearly CE, I'm not sure what is, LOL. And, she's listed as the drow deity of assassins.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 19 Jul 2011 19:24:39
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
293 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:24:14  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron


IMO, the "CN" in this article is just a typo mistake, considering that her litany is written thus:

quote:
Raise yourself up by bringing others down. Don't reveal your strength, or your hatred, until your victim is helpless. Don't strike until you have the advantage; the only "fair" fight is the one you win. Once the trap is sprung, make time to gloat for the kill. The legs of the spider are made to be broken.



If that isn't clearly CE, I'm not sure what is, LOL.





Thanks for all the info!

Edited by - Thieran on 19 Jul 2011 19:25:39
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:25:53  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron


IMO, the "CN" in this article is just a typo mistake, considering that her litany is written thus:

quote:
Raise yourself up by bringing others down. Don't reveal your strength, or your hatred, until your victim is helpless. Don't strike until you have the advantage; the only "fair" fight is the one you win. Once the trap is sprung, make time to gloat for the kill. The legs of the spider are made to be broken.



If that isn't clearly CE, I'm not sure what is, LOL.





Thanks for all the info!


No problemo!

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:29:52  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's not neccesarily CE. It's more self serving.
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
293 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2011 :  13:00:09  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

That's not neccesarily CE. It's more self serving.



Alas, in the DnD cosmology/alignment, it is clearly evil. You might disagree, but you will find yourself part of a small minority.

Compare, for instance, the litany of Zinzerena as quoted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Raise yourself up by bringing others down. Don't reveal your strength, or your hatred, until your victim is helpless. Don't strike until you have the advantage; the only "fair" fight is the one you win. Once the trap is sprung, make time to gloat for the kill. The legs of the spider are made to be broken.




with a quote from the 3.5 SRD regarding alignment:

quote:

ďEvilĒ implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.



But as pointed out above, have fun with a neutral Zinzerena in your home campaign.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2011 :  21:04:10  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

Here's the thing. Being "pretty sure" or saying "I think" or "I believe" or "I seem to remember" is insufficient when providing a source. Episodes of reality TV, personal anecdotes, web pages (even wikis), don't cut it either.

The question here isn't whether Zinzerena was in Menzo. On Hallowed Ground, the source I mentioned from Planescape, establishes Zinzerena's presence there. Other material supports this, and Lolth supplanting her later. Drow of the Underdark relates her story in more detail, but it's a core book and not necessarily specific to FR. Demihuman Deities is the source for the Realms that clearly states that Lolth ultimately killed Zinzerena or at least drove her influence from the Realms.

Zinzerena was listed as CN in Dragon #298. But that is the only place where she is listed as CN, and it's for Oerth-Greyhawk, anyway. Even so, reading the text for her in the same article, it's clear that "CN" is definitely an error, especially since other published sources agree that she is CE.




Well, if I remembered exactly WHERE it was, I'd cite it. I think I've proven often enough that when I have the sources at hand, I'm more than happy to provide them. But since A) most of my books have been in storage for over a year and a half, and B) I don't own a copy of that particular trilogy (and probably never will, as I refuse to endorse the decisions made by WotC as part of the story), I simply can't quote chapter and verse as I would like. HOWEVER- my memory is usually pretty good on matters of all things drow, and in fact, the issue of Dragon you mentioned is in fact the very one I mentioned myself- except that I did not have the issue number handy. That was the Vault of the Drow update for 3.5 I brought up, and it was very good, all things considered. Zinzerena was mentioned in that article, and I agree that the alignment listed there was a typo. As far as her having been in Menzo, it was simply a minor side-note that I thought had some bearing on the discussion at hand, since Lolth seems to frequent that city as well. Whether she was actually killed there is anyone's guess.....

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2011 :  21:47:54  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

Here's the thing. Being "pretty sure" or saying "I think" or "I believe" or "I seem to remember" is insufficient when providing a source. Episodes of reality TV, personal anecdotes, web pages (even wikis), don't cut it either.

The question here isn't whether Zinzerena was in Menzo. On Hallowed Ground, the source I mentioned from Planescape, establishes Zinzerena's presence there. Other material supports this, and Lolth supplanting her later. Drow of the Underdark relates her story in more detail, but it's a core book and not necessarily specific to FR. Demihuman Deities is the source for the Realms that clearly states that Lolth ultimately killed Zinzerena or at least drove her influence from the Realms.

Zinzerena was listed as CN in Dragon #298. But that is the only place where she is listed as CN, and it's for Oerth-Greyhawk, anyway. Even so, reading the text for her in the same article, it's clear that "CN" is definitely an error, especially since other published sources agree that she is CE.




Well, if I remembered exactly WHERE it was, I'd cite it. I think I've proven often enough that when I have the sources at hand, I'm more than happy to provide them. But since A) most of my books have been in storage for over a year and a half, and B) I don't own a copy of that particular trilogy (and probably never will, as I refuse to endorse the decisions made by WotC as part of the story), I simply can't quote chapter and verse as I would like. HOWEVER- my memory is usually pretty good on matters of all things drow, and in fact, the issue of Dragon you mentioned is in fact the very one I mentioned myself- except that I did not have the issue number handy. That was the Vault of the Drow update for 3.5 I brought up, and it was very good, all things considered. Zinzerena was mentioned in that article, and I agree that the alignment listed there was a typo. As far as her having been in Menzo, it was simply a minor side-note that I thought had some bearing on the discussion at hand, since Lolth seems to frequent that city as well. Whether she was actually killed there is anyone's guess.....


If you do find it or remember the book, I'd love to know where. At this point, I think there has been a lot of speculation about Zinzerena (and I'm not referring to Candlekeep, but other websites), and finding little fiddly-bits of lore on the drow is just... fun! It doesn't seem to be in the LP series, though, based on my keyword lookup.

Anyway, if I were to engage in speculation... I'd think that Lolth actually didn't kill her. Given Zinzerena's finesse with illusion and misdirection, I personally suspect that she left the Realms and went back to Oerth, or someplace else. She's just too interesting to kill off (although I said the same thing about Eilistraee... and I agree, what WotC did considering Eilistraee's popularity was simply a travesty).

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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