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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2011 :  18:21:03  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic

Insurrection by Thomas M. Reid is the second book of the epic saga War of the Spider Queen. A band of dark elves (the Mistress of Arach-Tinilith, Quenthel Baenre; the Master of Sorcere, Pharaun Mizzrym; the Master of Melee-Magthere, Ryld Argith; the enigmatic scout Valas Hune; and Quenthel's demon pet, Jeggred) journeyed incognito to Ched Nasad, the City of Shimmering Webs, to retrieve House Baenre's stolen goods and to find out whether “Lloth's Silence” was only limited to Menzoberanzan or experienced by their race all across the Underdark...

This book is full of fight scenes, about eighty per cent of the entire content. Amazingly, though, Reid excellently fleshed out the characters that each scene did not merely focus on the battle per se, but also unraveled their personalities. There were times when they acted out of their nature, but mostly, Reid adhered to the general conception of the drow's psyche.

I particularly like the bantering and palpable tension between Pharaun and Quenthel. Pharaun's witticism often grated on Quenthel's nerves. But the mistress understood fully well that Pharaun's many suggestions and 'assumptions' had merits, and so she subtly let him “defy” her or lead the group in 'essence.' She went along the wizard's subtle machination, but she understood it and him well enough not to completely fall prey to it. And it could be evidenced in one of their “parting” moments:

She stumbled against the wizard, and the snakes snapped ineffectually against his piwafwi.
Pharaun caught her and set her on her feet again.
"Please," he said to her. "We don't have time for this."
Quenthel's scowl faded slightly, and she looked at the wizard with a slight smirk.
"If I didn't know better, I would think you're getting soft, wizard."


There's only so much she could tolerate, though, and so, to protect her position, she would, by drastic means, remind the band who's really in charge.

Though Reid gave sufficient voice and life to other characters, I found myself not caring about them most of the time.. and some I actively dislike. The succubus Alizzsa, for one. It's like Reid (and the team behind the WotSQ project) included her to make the book (and the entire series, for that matter) a qausi-erotic one. And the jealousy factor was really irritating. The plot would have gone well even without her interference. The gray dwarves I also dislike. For the record, I was never fond of dwarves, regardless of alignment, class and status. And that it may change is highly unlikely. There are less than a handful I like, all of them do not exist in the Forgotten Realms world---not in D&D multiverse, either. So my assessment of them is always tinged with partiality. I still don't see why the armies of the major Houses in Ched Nasad were not able to stop those gray, stinking, overweight creatures. Despite the loss of their spells due to their goddess's mysterious Silence, the Matron Mothers still had hoards of spells and magical items, and constructs that would kill their enemies in blind obedience. Not to mention they had a number of capable wizards. I don't mind what happened to Ched Nasad. However, the ones who caused it were not convincing. While none of the gray dwarves was the mastermind behind the Civil War, it was they who actualized it and who, in their defiance, escalated it to a level beyond remedy.

Jeggred's “unhealthy” eating habits should be more than enough reminder that this book is not for people age 13 and below. The fiend's twisted sense of humor helped make certain scenes less dire. Nonetheless, his fiendish ways simply arouse vivid, vile images—though contextually appropriate.

The inclusion of a few new characters, like the priestess (and wizard) Halistra Melarn and her battle captive (and lover) Danifae, not only furthered the plot but would also help you delve better into the personalities of the main characters by their complementary and contrasting attributes.

I appreciate that Reid spared a couple of pages to show what the Archmage Gromph Baenre and the Matron Mother Triel Baenre were doing. It would have been completely absurd to find them not given a mote of “screen time,” since they were the ones responsible for the drow band's journey.

One of a fantasist's greatest challenges is to evoke the setting with outstanding clarity and attention to details. This, Reid did well---from the entrance of the band to Ched Nasad, to the city's (not so surprising) plunge into chaos, to its eventual, final state.

This book is interesting enough that I finished it. And I recommend it to all the fans of the Forgotten Realms. However, it's teetering on the verge of averageness, and is hardly great.


Rating: 6/10

Every beginning has an end.

zenmichael
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Posted - 23 Jun 2011 :  21:55:28  Show Profile  Visit zenmichael's Homepage Send zenmichael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have so, so much to say about the War of the Spider Queen in general, but I'll save it for when I actually get there with my chronological re-read/reviews. All I'll say here is I think you're being far too generous (though I don't blame Reid for what I see as the faults of this book).

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Dennis
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Posted - 23 Jun 2011 :  22:27:51  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Far too generous? Maybe, considering how caustic I can be when a book bores me. And this one did, in a few chapters. I guess I just liked Pharaun so much, and enjoyed every scene where he strut, jibed, and cast. The plot wasn't really that engaging, but most of the characters made up for it---to a certain degree.

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zenmichael
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Posted - 24 Jun 2011 :  01:46:15  Show Profile  Visit zenmichael's Homepage Send zenmichael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually didn't care for Phaerun in this one. I thought he was WAYYYY too Mary Sue here. I much prefer him in Baker's book 3 where he becomes a parody of himself from books 1 & 2, overexaggerated & foppish. His sly grins become cheesy smirks, etc. Far more of an interesting character, I thought. But /shrug/ just me.(In Baker's book, oddly and randomly, the thief guy ... Vala? I remember it starts with a V ... becomes the more Mary Sue out of the characters)

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2011 :  02:07:05  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Valas was okay. But he'd always conveniently vanish when things turned too dire. He was nigh invincible for a fighter.

Pharaun was a rarity. How many times do we get to see a drow with a sense of humor?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 24 Jun 2011 :  04:26:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by zenmichael

I actually didn't care for Phaerun in this one. I thought he was WAYYYY too Mary Sue here. I much prefer him in Baker's book 3 where he becomes a parody of himself from books 1 & 2, overexaggerated & foppish. His sly grins become cheesy smirks, etc. Far more of an interesting character, I thought. But /shrug/ just me.(In Baker's book, oddly and randomly, the thief guy ... Vala? I remember it starts with a V ... becomes the more Mary Sue out of the characters)



I don't know that I'd call any of them a Mary Sue, but the way the character personalities shifted from book to book was one of the things that bugged me most about this series. That and not caring about most of the characters or their objective.

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Kno
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Posted - 24 Jun 2011 :  09:52:33  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They're drow and demons, why did you expect to care about these characters?

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2011 :  14:13:33  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Despite having an overseer for the WotSQ project, the issue of minor (or major) inconsistencies surfaced because there were six different authors working on it. And even though they had a clear idea on how the characters were supposed to be portrayed, their personal style or preference must have gotten in the way, for better or for worse. I already expected that much, so I wasn't really surprised.

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Brimstone
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USA
3290 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2011 :  15:14:18  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kno

They're drow and demons, why did you expect to care about these characters?


"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
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words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 24 Jun 2011 :  17:48:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by Kno

They're drow and demons, why did you expect to care about these characters?





Heh.

Well, I did like Pharaun and Aliisza, and Ryld had some potential. And for other drow, I'm a huge fan of Liriel and Jarlaxle, and I've made my own drow NPC (based on a GI Joe figure!).

Aaron Williams had an LJ post this morning where he commented on the character Alfred Bester, from the TV show Babylon 5. Bester was a bad guy, and he was willing to use or kill anyone to accomplish his goals. But his goals were to protect other telepaths, particularly the woman he loved. He was a villain with clear motivations, and those motivations were easily understood -- and in fact, most people in similar situations would support his goals. His methods are another story, but his goals were laudable -- he wasn't just evil for the sake of being evil. And he would work with whoever it took to accomplish his goals, even if he personally disliked who he was working with. If I was the type to read books based on a TV series, I'd happily read a book or two about "Dark Chekov," as I referred to him.

The characters from the War of the Spider Queen didn't seem to have as clear a goal, and I honestly have to wonder at what they thought they were going to accomplish -- there's problems in the divine realms, so you're going to look for what's going on by going walkabout in the Underdark? And even though the characters were all ostensibly on the same mission, they were constantly bickering and getting at each other's throats.

Yeah, I get that drow society is chaotic and full of backstabbing and deceit. And yes, I get that even in a small group, there would be dissension and ambition. But these are intelligent folks, from a race known for a love of intrigue. Openly bickering and being at each other's throats does not accomplish their overall goal, and it's too open for drow. At times, they seemed more like angry teenaged boys, as opposed to anything we'd normally see from drow. They didn't seem willing to put aside short-term issues for the long-term goals, even though cooperation would have benefitted both the individuals and the group. It felt like this group was bickering for the sake of doing so, and like their mission was just a secondary concern.

You write a six-book series about the same group of characters, the readers need to be able to enjoy reading about those characters. I don't recall if any of the bickering was in this specific novel or if it was in some of the other ones, but overall, there was nothing to interest me in those characters. I actively disliked more than a couple of them, and wanted them to fail, die, or both.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2011 :  17:50:44  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

...even though the characters were all ostensibly on the same mission, they were constantly bickering and getting at each other's throats. [snip]




In fairness to Reid, he made the validity of the "bickering" quite plain. Under normal circumstances, Quenthel would have killed Pharaun for his "insubordination." But the situation they were in was hardly normal. Quenthel needed the wizard, albeit she didn't expressly say it. And Pharaun knew it well, otherwise he wouldn't have dared defy the mistress, no matter how he tried to sugar-coat such defiance. If she killed him, she'd just increase the likelihood of their failure to return to Menzoberanzan alive.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Jun 2011 :  18:23:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

...even though the characters were all ostensibly on the same mission, they were constantly bickering and getting at each other's throats. [snip]




In fairness to Reid, he made the validity of the "bickering" quite plain. Under normal circumstances, Quenthel would have killed Pharaun for his "insubordination." But the situation they were in was hardly normal. Quenthel needed the wizard, albeit she didn't expressly say it. And Pharaun knew it well, otherwise he wouldn't have dared defy the mistress, no matter how he tried to sugar-coat such defiance. If she killed him, she'd just increase the likelihood of their failure to return to Menzoberanzan alive.



As I recall, it was more than just those two. And it was throughout the series, not just in one book.

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Dennis
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Posted - 29 Jun 2011 :  18:45:15  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I see. Given that this is a review of Insurrection, I thought you were referring to events in the said book. I haven't yet read Books 3, 4, and 6 (and honestly, I'm not sure if I'd even bother), so I can't really provide a more substantiated argument.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Jun 2011 :  18:55:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I see. Given that this is a review of Insurrection, I thought you were referring to events in the said book. I haven't yet read Books 3, 4, and 6 (and honestly, I'm not sure if I'd even bother), so I can't really provide a more substantiated argument.



Yeah, I commented earlier in response to character shifts, and kinda went a bit further from there... Honestly, though, most of my biggest complaints about this series came later in the series.

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Dennis
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Posted - 29 Jun 2011 :  19:59:18  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

As far as online reviews go, most the negative ones I've read are from Ressurection by Paul S. Kemp. By the look of the blurb, it seems like Danifae gets to steal the limelight. Which would be my main problem since I didn't particularly like her in Insurrection, nor in Annihilation.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Jun 2011 :  22:03:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


As far as online reviews go, most the negative ones I've read are from Ressurection by Paul S. Kemp. By the look of the blurb, it seems like Danifae gets to steal the limelight. Which would be my main problem since I didn't particularly like her in Insurrection, nor in Annihilation.



I liked her in the first book she was in, but that was it. After that, I went from being neutral to disliking her.

Paul S. Kemp is a popular author; I was not aware of negative reviews of that book. But then again, since reading the series, I've done my best to stay away from it.

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Dennis
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Posted - 29 Jun 2011 :  22:22:12  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Popular, indeed. That's why I was surprised when I read all the vehemently trenchant reviews.

Anyway, there's a possibility (however slight) that I would read Book 6, just to know how exactly did Pharaun die. Given how his "friend" Ryld died in Book 5, I might as well expect the worst.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Jun 2011 :  23:36:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Popular, indeed. That's why I was surprised when I read all the vehemently trenchant reviews.

Anyway, there's a possibility (however slight) that I would read Book 6, just to know how exactly did Pharaun die. Given how his "friend" Ryld died in Book 5, I might as well expect the worst.



I do personally advocate reading all the books, just so that one can form a proper, informed opinion. I'm very much in a minority with these books.

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Dennis
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Posted - 29 Jun 2011 :  23:49:06  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Hmm. I'll see. But in case I'd be inclined to, I'd read Ressurection first. I already started reading the series out of order, so might as well continue.

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Clad In Shadows
Learned Scribe

Canada
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Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  19:29:21  Show Profile Send Clad In Shadows a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I liked all 6 books. I did notice the discrepancies in how the characters were portrayed from book to book, but it didn't bother me, considering how the series was written.

And I did care about Pharaun, Ryld, and Halistra.
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Dennis
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Posted - 09 Jul 2011 :  03:57:16  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I was a bit "considerate" of the inconsistencies of the characters' portrayal from book to book. Authors never have the same minds. Though I guess of all the characters, Pharaun was the one who was shown with almost perfect consistency.

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Thelonius
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Spain
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Posted - 10 Jul 2011 :  09:47:40  Show Profile Send Thelonius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Popular, indeed. That's why I was surprised when I read all the vehemently trenchant reviews.

Anyway, there's a possibility (however slight) that I would read Book 6, just to know how exactly did Pharaun die. Given how his "friend" Ryld died in Book 5, I might as well expect the worst.



You won't be disappointed then . On the other hand got to say that Pharaun, Halisstra and Gomph are in my view the best build characters, though Halisstra annoys me quite a lot. Alisza though a good char is to "I'm sexy and I know it". The rest of the chars and their continuous "I want to betray the rest" plots are a pain to me, specially when they end up working together in all the situations; except for Belshazu last stand. Also felt that Inthracis adding in the last book was some kind of "parchment" idea, though as I haven't read any other book where he appears maybe I'm talking too much there.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 10 Jul 2011 :  14:02:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I was a bit "considerate" of the inconsistencies of the characters' portrayal from book to book. Authors never have the same minds. Though I guess of all the characters, Pharaun was the one who was shown with almost perfect consistency.



I get that authors never have the same minds, but I still think that things could have been done more smoothly. Either with greater coordination between the writers, stricter guidelines from above, or better editorial cleanup to polish off rough edges. The way the draegloth goes from subservient to rebellious was, in particular, very jarring to me.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2011 :  03:09:51  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I was a bit "considerate" of the inconsistencies of the characters' portrayal from book to book. Authors never have the same minds. Though I guess of all the characters, Pharaun was the one who was shown with almost perfect consistency.



I get that authors never have the same minds, but I still think that things could have been done more smoothly. Either with greater coordination between the writers, stricter guidelines from above, or better editorial cleanup to polish off rough edges. The way the draegloth goes from subservient to rebellious was, in particular, very jarring to me.


Agreed. Sort of. But not everything can be caught by the editor's microscopic eyes. A thing or two sometimes "slips." Though of course one may question the editor's competence. On the other hand, let's not disregard the idea that what we think is an inconsistency (as a criticism) may, for the editor, be part of the characters' development.

Years ago I participated in a project somewhat similar to WotSQ. Ten of us "new" writers wrote a novella about a certain hero that helped "shape" our country into what it is now. Some of the "professional" reviewers not associated with our publisher said one of the weaknesses of the series was the inconsistency of the portrayal of the supporting characters. We had two editors then who oversaw the project. So either they didn't spot the said inconsistency or judged it as part of the characters' evolution. Despite a few criticisms, I was glad how the series turned out to be.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 26 Aug 2011 18:47:16
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