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MadCyric
Acolyte
Germany
16 Posts |
 Posted - 25 May 2011 : 10:36:47
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As you may have noticed I'm currently digging into all the information about The North of the Forgotten Realms. What I noticed is the channge of what kind of mood this region stood for.
In the first edition it was a real frontier land - with plenty of orcs and barbarians, northmen freshly united in the Captains' Confederation hunting the Sword Coast up and down for easy targets and some real tough and evil mages sizing control in Luskan.
With the second edition and later products the dwarves where suddenly coming back with a vengeance, the Hosttower of the Arcane became a cabal of incompentent wizards, Waterdeep evolved to be the most civilized place on Faerun und whole regions merged to the new Silver Marches, uniting under a queen who is a chosen of Mystra - which does imo in no way fit the spirit of the northern people and most of all not the dwarves. Longsaddle is now full of mighty goodhearted mages, the High Forest seems more like some magical forest full of sylvan creature then the deep and dark natural wood of the past.
Am I the only one who thinks that the old Savage Frontier contained much more adventure then the new one?
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 12:29:15
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The old products were better written
I don't agree that there were more options back then, later books failed to expand and mostly copied old material |
z455t |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 18:22:50
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| -It's perception, I guess. The old books may have had less information, or presented a more broad, "wild" picture of the region, but the books that were later written added whatever intrigue they contained retroactively. Given that a lot of the stuff that goes on in the North, in that manner, is political or whatnot, you can still have all that kind of intrigue and still have the north being a wild and savage place. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2011 : 00:21:11
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| I think that's a supportable impression, but we need to detangle some of the factors to discuss it in any detail. For instance, how would we characterize Paul Jaquays's representation of Ed's material in FR5? The dwarven resurgence is part of the general TSR/Wizards reversal of demihuman decline, but what motivated Luruar? On the other hand, I don't see any such shift in Waterdeep's portrayal, and you're giving too much weight to portrayals in Bob's novels that were for his local storytelling purposes and don't show up much in the general source material. |
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MadCyric
Acolyte
Germany
16 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2011 : 13:36:22
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The later books copied alot of their material, that's true. But it was the stuff that was added on top that makes the whole Savage Frontier feel different. Luruar for example (as Faraer wrote in his statement, too), which is called the Silver Marches later on, does in no way fit to what is presented in the 1st Ed boxed set or the FR5.
I don't want to give too much weight to what is said in novels, even though they allways added a bit of (welcomed) cultural backround to the places they where describing. But I think Bob did indeed present Luskan in a way more fitting to a merchant/raider city than what happend to it in the 2nd ed and later on.
Ofcourse you're right about the "reversal of demihuman decline" as kind of an official TSR/WotC policy but again it does not fit of what is written in FR5 and it kind of reverses alot of the general mood of the Savage Frontier setting. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2011 : 15:48:29
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From what I understand, I think that at least some of the deisgners realized the mistakes being made with The North becoming 'civilized' (although it was still FAR from), and that was responsible for a lot of the decisions made with 4e.
Not saying I agree with all that was done, but I do agree with notions that were behind those decisions. The very loose presentation in 1e was being filled-in way too quickly, and areas that were supposed to be left to DMs (Sembia, Erlkazar, etc) were also being 'used up'. Leaving room for DM-creativity is PARAMOUNT in a game-setting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2011 15:48:52 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 02:39:47
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quote:
Originally posted by MadCyric
Luruar for example (as Faraer wrote in his statement, too), which is called the Silver Marches later on, does in no way fit to what is presented in the 1st Ed boxed set or the FR5.
Its existence is perfectly in tune with the many more or less small and short-lived realms known to have cropped up in the region, but it would have worked better for me as something for PCs to work towards than as an emergence seemingly out of nothing (thus seemingly unearned). |
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MadCyric
Acolyte
Germany
16 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 07:10:22
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My problem with Luruar is not it's existence but that the dwarves of the north would accept a chosen of Mystra as their leader. Dwarves are untrusting towards magic and it's users, can't use magic in a way humans or elves do (at least in 1st & 2nd ed) and even all this aside why should an old race like the dwarves accept leadership by a human (a human female!)?. And all this within some 10 years after reclaiming Mithrill Hall from the orcs.
I agree with you that the PCs should have been able to play part in this nation building like in the avatar adventures or something like that. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 07:51:48
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quote:
Originally posted by MadCyric
My problem with Luruar is not it's existence but that the dwarves of the north would accept a chosen of Mystra as their leader. Dwarves are untrusting towards magic and it's users, can't use magic in a way humans or elves do (at least in 1st & 2nd ed) and even all this aside why should an old race like the dwarves accept leadership by a human (a human female!)?. And all this within some 10 years after reclaiming Mithrill Hall from the orcs.
While it's true that Alustriel is a Chosen of Mystra, I think that, for the purpose of the creation of Luruar, that was not very relevant for the dwarves, or the other members of the Confederation. Alustriel became ruler of Luruar, because she had been a long-standing, highly respected ruler of Silverymoon, with a proven track record of being even-handed towards all races - she strived for harmony between the races. The fact that she's a Chosen of Mystra would not be much of a consideration, especially since originally, people are not really aware that she is one.
While it's true that the dwarves may not necessarily like magic-users, my view is that it would be more because, being an intensely physical race, they would not respect "weaklings". One can say a lot about Alustriel, but a weakling she is not. The dwarves (1E and 2E) do use magic, in the creation of their magical weapons and armor. Bruenor Battlehammer is a prime example of this - he created Aegis-Fang, after all.
And speaking of Bruenor... Having read a lot of Ed Greenwood's writings on his own scrolls in Candlekeep, Alustriel is all about creating personal ties to and between rulers and people. She is like the ultimate middle(wo)man in the North, setting up personal relationships between people, especially those with their hands on the level of power. Bruenor was saved by Alustriel after the initial discovery of Mithril Hall; Alustriel also helped in the liberation of Mithril Hall, and sent troops (and put herself in the line of fire) to help the dwarves repel the Menzoberranzan invasion. That creates a powerful personal rapport. Perhaps Bruenor is atypical for a dwarf - after all, he took in an orphaned human girl, befriended a drow ranger, and turned an enemy barbarian into his adoptive son. But so be it - perhaps the dwarves of Mithril Hall are not all that wild about the magic issue, but Bruenor is their king, and within certain areas, his word is law.
And when it comes to magic, let's not forget that the dwarves accepted the help of the Harpells, both in the reconquista of Mithril Hall, and in the subsequent battle against Menzoberranzan. Which brings me to my final point - the dwarves of Mithril Hall (and of Citadel Adbar) may have come to realize that they cannot go it alone. They have been fighting the fight for centuries, and have been pushed back constantly. They lost most of their holds (Gauntlgrym, Felbarr, Mithril Hall, and probably many other nameless beside), so this "independence" thing did not really work for them. Perhaps Bruenor gave the example by working closely with the humans (and the magic-users), but it worked. And dwarves, I think, are nothing if not pragmatic.
So, in my opinion, even from the perspective of 1E and 2E dwarves, there's nothing that would have stopped them from entering into the alliance. Yes, there might be tensions, but I think I'm channeling Big Ed here when I say that those kinds of tensions make for a very nice roleplaying environment... |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 08:29:09
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I agree with Thauramarth, here. Alustriel showed the dwarves, in fact, all the civilized beings of the North, just how great a city can be when 'everyone gets along' for almost 150 years. (Alustriel, Dlaertha, to her friends, reigned from 1235-1369, and built a city unparalled in the North.)
Well, except orcs and drow. They can stay in their caves.
And goblins.
Especially orcs and goblins.
I would add that I don't think the Silver Marches Confederacy would've ever gotten off the ground without Obould's risen hoard as a threat; regardless of how strong Alustriel's leadership was... |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 27 May 2011 08:31:30 |
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MadCyric
Acolyte
Germany
16 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 14:21:07
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| Thx to both of you for your insights. You got me thinking... |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 21:05:42
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If you go back and re-read The Crystal Shard, Bruenor's human daughter Catti-brie possesses very little of the assertive persona that she does in all of the other books. I have postulated that Cat may have been a victim of dwarvish traditionalism and conservatism for a time, but perhaps she finally grew up and began to stand up to Bruenor's restrictions. Perhaps that helped to open his eyes to the notion of working more closely with humans, and human females in particular.
Regardless, it does not appear that dwarf involvement in the Alliance of Silverymoon/Luruar/Silver Marches was very secure, for 4E tells us that the dwarves have left the confederation by 1479. I'd say that it was probably only ever a shaky alliance as far as the dwarves were concerned. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36800 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 04:12:33
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
If you go back and re-read The Crystal Shard, Bruenor's human daughter Catti-brie possesses very little of the assertive persona that she does in all of the other books. I have postulated that Cat may have been a victim of dwarvish traditionalism and conservatism for a time, but perhaps she finally grew up and began to stand up to Bruenor's restrictions. Perhaps that helped to open his eyes to the notion of working more closely with humans, and human females in particular.
Regardless, it does not appear that dwarf involvement in the Alliance of Silverymoon/Luruar/Silver Marches was very secure, for 4E tells us that the dwarves have left the confederation by 1479. I'd say that it was probably only ever a shaky alliance as far as the dwarves were concerned.
I'd say that Luruar failing to do anything about the orc kingdom popping up on Mithral Hall's doorstep was something very irksome to the dwarves, and would be enough by itself to cause them to rethink the alliance. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2011 : 11:04:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd say that Luruar failing to do anything about the orc kingdom popping up on Mithral Hall's doorstep was something very irksome to the dwarves, and would be enough by itself to cause them to rethink the alliance.
It shoulda been enough to keep them from ever committing to it in the first durn place!
But noooooo...Alustriel and Drizzt had to go and pressure Bruenor into giving peace a chance.
"Pay no attention to that foul odor and snarling rabble flinging their dung at your front door. Really...orcs are your friends!" |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2011 : 14:03:56
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Dwarves to Alustriel: "Don't let the door of the hall hit ya, where the Lady of Mysteries done split ya!"
Seriously, I'd totally retcon this for my game. The thread gave me an idea, actually. The Dwarves in Mithral Hall are all alone, without allies, and at war with the savage orc kingdom. In my game Luskan has been taken over by a warlord and leader of a strange new cult. (Some whisper that the cult is really Bane under a new guise, but this cult and the cult of Bane are fighting - they hate each other a great deal.) The cult is led by an extraordinarily accomplished military general and adventurer (former / current noble of Waterdeep, and former member of the Grey Hands), his male consort (another former / current noble of Waterdeep and also a former member of the Grey Hands), and his queen - a sorceress of middling power but skilled and adept at political intrigue.
The Host Tower has fallen. The Arcane Brotherhood is gone. Luskan is no longer a den for pirates. The cult is working hard to redeem the reputation of Luskan and bring to it prosperity. The ultimate vision of the cult is to see the North united under a single king, a place where the civilized races can live in harmony, unity, and shared prosperity.
They are viewed with suspicion by leaders throughout the North, because their agenda is openly stated - they want to unify everyone, and while everyone is happy to work together they also want to maintain independence.
Cut to this problem... the Dwarves of Mithral Hall are battling the Orc Kingdom, and the Alliance is not giving them aid. The Cult based in Luskan creates an alliance with the Dwarves and sends soldiers westward to join their cause and help them fight.
Sure, it might look like a war of genocide against the Orcs who want to emulate the civilized races... but really, their crude mockeries of civilization are doomed to fail, and when that happens their hordes will spill forth once more... or at least that's what they'd claim. (As they butcher entire orc villages, of course.)
Cue the players who have to decide whether to side with the dwarves or with the orcs. Without the players, of course, the Orcs are doomed as the Alliance has stated its neutrality in the matter.
Something along these lines could be interesting for my Realms. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 14 Jun 2011 14:10:42 |
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The North
