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Originally posted by Dennis


I don't know. But wouldn't it be too taxing for him to rule his city (physically attending meetings and important gatherings) and powering magical items within rage every second of the day?

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Originally posted by Dennis


Or, given that it's Larloch's point of view, the lich might have disliked them or considered them his enemies and therefore deliberately left them unnamed.

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Originally posted by Dennis

That it no longer exists (as opposed to Waterdeep) does not really matter. There should have been historical records prior to the Fall that survived, or a few surviving denizens should have recalled and recorded some important accounts, like the full list, coupled with brief, if not extensive descriptions of all the enclaves.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Dennis

That it no longer exists (as opposed to Waterdeep) does not really matter. There should have been historical records prior to the Fall that survived, or a few surviving denizens should have recalled and recorded some important accounts, like the full list, coupled with brief, if not extensive descriptions of all the enclaves.

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-Of course it matters. Can you apply what you just said to our own past civilizations, pertaining to the records part? If we went into the depths of archeological excavation in Rome, what are the odds we going to find anywhere a record book or groups of books that list every single Ancient Roman settlement that existed up until whenever the ledger was written? Regarding survivors who are still alive, they need to be "asked". Larloch was "asked", and we have his account on things. Perhaps all he wished to share, he shared, but perhaps all he knew or remembered, he shared.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:

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Originally posted by Dennis

That it no longer exists (as opposed to Waterdeep) does not really matter. There should have been historical records prior to the Fall that survived, or a few surviving denizens should have recalled and recorded some important accounts, like the full list, coupled with brief, if not extensive descriptions of all the enclaves.

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-Of course it matters. Can you apply what you just said to our own past civilizations, pertaining to the records part? If we went into the depths of archeological excavation in Rome, what are the odds we going to find anywhere a record book or groups of books that list every single Ancient Roman settlement that existed up until whenever the ledger was written? Regarding survivors who are still alive, they need to be "asked". Larloch was "asked", and we have his account on things. Perhaps all he wished to share, he shared, but perhaps all he knew or remembered, he shared.

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Originally posted by Kno

Establishing an exact number of enclaves would be limiting, I remember there were 13 at one time (age of discovery?)

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Originally posted by Asharak

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Originally posted by Kno

Establishing an exact number of enclaves would be limiting, I remember there were 13 at one time (age of discovery?)

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"At its height, High Netheril boasted fifty-four floating cities," from Lost Empires of Faerūn p.108

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Or all he considered important. I could name every city in my geographical area, but if I was asked to name just the important/major ones, it's a much smaller list.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

As much as I like to know about Netheril and other fallen kingdoms, it doesn't bother me that potentially hundreds of enclaves remain unnamed. More room to play, and also, with most of them being rubble now, it's just not all that important. There's a lot more modern (1370ish) stuff I'd like to see detailed, as opposed to a list of cities destroyed 1700 years ago.

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Originally posted by Dennis

And that's one of the reasons I (as much as possible) avoid RW comparisons. There are several ways knowledge can be preserved in Toril. It is awash with magic, something we do not have, something that leads to endless possibilities. A three-foot tome detailing Netheril's History (including a full list of the enclaves), preserved by magic against decomposition and fire, protected against perusal by anyone save Netheril's anscestors, could have been written by the archwizards' scribes and hidden in caves, graveyards, whatever, somewhere far from Netheril. There's much they could have done, having magic at their disposal, to preserve the knowledge of their culture.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Dennis

And that's one of the reasons I (as much as possible) avoid RW comparisons. There are several ways knowledge can be preserved in Toril. It is awash with magic, something we do not have, something that leads to endless possibilities. A three-foot tome detailing Netheril's History (including a full list of the enclaves), preserved by magic against decomposition and fire, protected against perusal by anyone save Netheril's anscestors, could have been written by the archwizards' scribes and hidden in caves, graveyards, whatever, somewhere far from Netheril. There's much they could have done, having magic at their disposal, to preserve the knowledge of their culture.

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-But, such a thing does not exist. Or, it has not been discovered yet, and, until it is discovered, we're still at square one. Did archeologists researching Ancient Egypt during the boom of research there in the early 1900s learn everything about it, and discover all of her hidden secrets all at once? Of course not. It's a process.

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Originally posted by Dennis

[...] but surely someone must have found it quite a worthwhile endeavor to record their present (which would be the future's past) so their descendants would understand their old ways. And they were wise enough to ensure that such records would be made in multiple copies, and scattered all across Toril. [...]

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Originally posted by Thieran

Books describing Netheril as it was at the time when they were written - alright. But why would such books contain information in a way that suits DMs interested in Realmslore? "Full lists" of all settlements with descriptions? That sounds more like an attempt to rationalise wishful thinking.

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Originally posted by Dennis

[...] And the descriptions must have included the full list of the enclaves raised at the time the books were written.[...]

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Originally posted by Dennis

Call it wishful thinking if you want. I hardly care.

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Originally posted by Thieran

But let's say you magically manage to have all your copies updated, and there is an institution which keeps this masterlist updated even after an individual historian's death. Still, what's the purpose of such a list? Why would anyone have ever written it?

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Thieran

But let's say you magically manage to have all your copies updated, and there is an institution which keeps this masterlist updated even after an individual historian's death. Still, what's the purpose of such a list? Why would anyone have ever written it?

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The same reason why a historian would bother record history.

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Originally posted by Dennis

The same reason why a historian would bother record history.

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Originally posted by Dennis

You're back to your RW comparison, again. Toril is not Earth, no matter how much seemingly similar they appear.

Who's to say those tomes do/did not exist? Just because it wasn't mentioned in any sources doesn't mean no archwizard, priest, common scribe, or practically anyone bothered to create such records for the preservation of Netheril's culture. They were an advanced civilization in so many ways, and a highly magical society at that. No one might have foreseen its fall, but surely someone must have found it quite a worthwhile endeavor to record their present (which would be the future's past) so their descendants would understand their old ways. And they were wise enough to ensure that such records would be made in multiple copies, and scattered all across Toril. The more annals there are, the more difficult it would be for anyone to hunt them, either for the purpose of destroying the records, or hoarding and keeping those to themselves.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Thieran

But let's say you magically manage to have all your copies updated, and there is an institution which keeps this masterlist updated even after an individual historian's death. Still, what's the purpose of such a list? Why would anyone have ever written it?

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The same reason why a historian would bother record history.

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I think the intent behind his question is a little different than how it came across... Say you are a chronicler of some sort living in Netheril. You will of course record all sorts of info about major enclaves such as Karsus or Shade, where there is a lot of stuff happening. But if Frehd the Arcanist raises an enclave called Frehdville, and then does absolutely nothing of any significance after that, how much effort are you going to spend paying attention to it and detailing it?

I've lived in areas where I lived in one town, passed thru a second en route to school or work, and then attended school or worked in a third town. And I never paid any attention to those towns I was passing thru... In fact, with one of the towns in question, I'd been working there for a while before I realized it was a separate town, and not just a geographical reference! I honestly thought West Melbourne was just another way of referring to a specific part of Melbourne -- I had no idea that West Melbourne was its own dedicated city (and it is, oddly, south of Melbourne, not west of it!). And there's another town in the area that's so small it's something of a joke to talk about it... If I was writing a chronicle about the Melbourne area, I'd lump West Melbourne into that and ignore Holopaw altogether. It's simple human nature to disregard that which is perceived as insignificant.

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